The missing Dutch girls in Panama
Part 5 - what do other people think happened?
This is part 5 - WHAT DO OTHER PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THIS DISAPPEARANCE CASE? See the main article on this disappearance case here. See follow up part 3 on this case here. I share publicly available information here about this disappearance case, as well as other relevant theories and views. If you find your own publicly available information or comments below (think of forum comments for instance, which I usually try to anonymize) and for any reason don't want it visible here, just send me a message about it. Below I link to different online sources where this case has been discussed, with most recent discussions at the top of this page.
**Personally I no longer follow Reddit much anymore, as it has unfortunately turned into a bit of negative, unfriendly and Lost-dominated place where a small and vocal clique seems to take all the space. It's not just me; dozens of people wrote me to complain about this over time. I suppose it has to come with a trigger warning by now, especially for those believing in a foul play scenario or who are undecided, or are looking for a more neutral, constructive platform to discuss this case from every angle. As BlackPortland wrote in the reddit sub: "There are glaring inconsistencies in this case. And there is a huge effort in this sub to wave away any inconsistency with condescending language, as if it’s imperative that we don't seriously discuss the case. I'm sorry, why are you the authority on the matter? Do you have some credentials or something? [..] The huge effort here to shut down the growing acceptance of the many inconsistencies in this case lead me to believe that perhaps if foul play occurred that the perps are alive and in this forum. Doing their best."
For anyone liking fair, balanced debate, I'd say be warned: many ran away screaming in the end, or did so silently. 'Wild Reddit' even managed to chase away every single book author who once wrote there and answered questions of people. The sub has 14K followers, but make no mistake: not even 1% of those actively post. It is a small clique of mostly Lost-believers with a super Western type of experience and reasoning, who dominate the discussion and try to group-press everyone believing in foul play or a mix of lost/foul play into a corner, using 'conspiracy theorist' slurs, sarcasm and demanding links and evidence for every claim... unless it is an Accident claim of course :) A couple of posters there are good, but many excellent posters from a few years ago have all left or stopped posting. Several people who are still actively posting however are from Boquete or have connections with Boquete and have an agenda. This may just be your cup of tea, so enjoy then. I will say it is one of the few active forums left where the Kris and Lisanne case is discussed though, so it has its value.
ZanthionHeralds wrote: "If you're new to this case, here's a word of advice: be on your guard. This case is like the JFK assassination. It has a way of working itself into people's brains and never letting go. Be careful not to lose yourself in the insanity. (I know tone is hard to judge over the internet, so I want to make clear that I'm trying to say this in jest, but I'm not actually being sarcastic. This case really is like the abyss: if you stare too long into it, it stares back into you.)"
BlookieTrailblazer replied: "You are so right. I found myself daily researching, reading, watching, etc., anything I could find on this case. I had to put down the Roku remote and pick up my PS5 controller to break myself from its tractor beam. But just like the mafia, as soon as I was out, it pulls me back in. This case is sad yet intriguing, horrific yet interesting. I just ordered SLIP on Amazon. I guess I'll be putting my controller back down for awhile again."
David Mullen wrote: "There's plenty of evidence to point to foul play. In the year immediately after 2014 there was scant evidence released, and no independent studies into either the Pianista route of the case itself. When Jeremy Kryt opened this obscure disappearance up to a global audience in 2017, he inadvertently reopened it. And because of his work in the last three years alone, a terrific amount of fresh firsthand research of the Pianista trail itself, the Police case files, the Camera content, the Phone logs and the realities of conditions and geography on that main river channel, have all come together to raise significant doubts and questions over what happened that Tuesday morning, then in the afternoon, to so suddenly stoop all phone use and Camera shooting, and so comprehensively make two women completely vanish from the face of the earth for the next two months.... Phones that are only activated for one to two minutes before being shut down - meaning there was barely time to find and connect to any signal. No functions or Torch features used on the phones. No written or audio messages. No photography. The lack of phone use after 5pm. The missing file #509. April 8th night photography suggesting a camp. But Lisanne's foot later found in her laced and tied boot plus the backpack with contents zipped shut both suggesting movement before she dies? Kris' shorts found unbuttoned and unzipped however, along with her still laced boot, also untied? It goes on and on. Supposedly these two came to grief (and Camp?) somewhere between the first and second bridges, their goods and remains spread out between the second bridge and all the way to distant Alto Romero. But this span of distance between the two bridges is not enormous, so where IS this April 8th location, seen in those photographs, exactly? More to the point - what evidence IS there that this location is by the river... there IS no river in those photographs."
Monicafernandezribera3611 wrote: "Hello, interesting deductions about the fate of these two poor Dutch girls. I have followed this case for a year and it is very interesting. Of course they had terrible luck in trusting friends that they should not have trusted. It could be a village gang of psychopathic boys who kidnapped, raped and murdered them in the house of one of them. My theory is that they surprised them in the middle of the excursion, and tricked them and forced them to go another way. I knew that it had not been any type of feline, cheetah or leopard or puma, since the animals do not leave the pants of one of the girls folded on a rock next to the river, nor leave the backpack in a clearing in the forest. If it had been animals that had attacked them, one of them would have surely escaped, or both. The cannibal Indians who people say were in the area, I rule them out. A fall or accident I also rule out, since one of the girls could then have returned to the town to ask for help. It had to be someone who had confidence and would mess them up. Many greetings from Monica😘💫❤🌠" [Translated from Spanish]
Impressive_Toe6080 wrote: "Immediately after the first emergency call drops, the “problem” that needs to be solved isn’t getting out of the jungle, it’s picking up cell reception. They’ve already established that they are lost and need help. That is the entire point of the “are we lost” dialogue. They also know that it is possible to pick up connection, just maybe not at their current location. At this point, “saving the battery” isn’t as high of a priority as “find cell reception” because they would have no way of knowing that they would be out there for 11 days, maybe longer. It would have been unimaginable for them to think they would spend several nights in the jungle to make conserving batteries more of a priority than finding cell reception. [..] By day 2 especially it’s no longer about escaping the dark, but getting help/cell service. Again, maybe this is why the Samsung was left on, but with the phone already on and draining battery anyway you would then expect more calls throughout the day as they are moving about to find cell service. (Or at least a text- if for no other reason than to see if it would eventually go through.) The emergency calls take literally 1 second and aren’t a huge drain on the phone battery. The risk of not calling as frequently as possible is not worth the reward of preserving battery.
Boileddogs wrote in early January 2023
Despite being sick of the bickering and preachy atmosphere on Reddit, this update below from Boileddogs was interesting and worth reporting on nonetheless. A very good, detailed and concise report of an actual Pianista hike. I noted down the following after reading those Reddit contributions part 1 and part 2:- Author is Boileddogs. Not known if male or female, but likely male since he communicates with a taxi driver about what type of girls are hot: "Get talking to the taxi driver about life in Costa Rica and his English proficiency. Oddly we get onto the subject of girls and he mentions he's really into European girls, "especially pale skin and blonde hair". I tell him he should try and visit Sweden one day but probably avoid my home of Manchester in the UK". Then again, in another section the author sounds to be female perhaps: "Speaking objectively about my personal experience with Feliciano, he was a complete gentleman throughout. There was no groping, maybe a hand on the shoulder when he was pointing out a bird or specific flowers, but that was it." Not very relevant further though.
- Boileddogs speaks basic Spanish
- Hiked the Pianista with Feliciano on April 19th of 2022, all the way to the location of photo 508.
- We are provided with excellent trail descriptions and photos, including an updated one of Feliciano Tours PR material.
- Boileddogs describes arriving in Boquete in the rain. There is a card from Feliciano displayed under the Hotels front desk. Booking a trip. "After a bit of back and Forth" (on Whatsapp) an agreement was reached. Wakes up at 6:30am the next morning, heads to the supermarket for supplies, has breakfast. Has a 7:50am missed call from Feliciano. Looks outside the room and "sees his face poking up from the road below"... [Scarlet: So Feliciano still personally comes round people's hostels or host families when he cannot reach them?] "He asks me to get in the car with his son Henry", another figure who's name has come up frequently over the years following the girl's disappearance."
- This is 2022, but Henry is STILL tagging along with his father: "He asks me to get in the car with his son Henry." And once they start their Pianista hike: "He takes the lead and his son lingers at the back." [Scarlet: Henry still works with his father then. Although not officially, as his business card doesn't mention 'Feliciano & Son'. I somehow also find it hard to imagine Henry as a solo guide of the calibre of his father or Plinio. He doesn't seem to have the necessary commitment, attitude or discipline to be a successful solo guide. Perhaps not even the will... I think we are learning here that he is still very much part of the same hiking circuit, as he was in 2014. Since bloggers described him coming along with Senior around that time already as well.]
- Boileddogs expects a personal tour, but finds out quickly that Feliciano collects more tourists. Dutch ones. Within the group of eight, there appear to be five Dutch fellow tourists mentioned all in all who join the tour. They say they are attracted by the mystique of this disappearance case.
Boileddogs describes Feliciano as follows
"He's a relatively short, sinewy man, with dark eyes but a very cheerful disposition. Speaking objectively about my personal experience with Feliciano, he was a complete gentleman throughout. There was no groping, maybe a hand on the shoulder when he was pointing out a bird or specific flowers, but that was it. There was maybe one moment which stuck out to me, where we were all laughing at one of the guys in our group who was struggling to get down from a rock and Feliciano jokingly made a couple of slicing motions with his machete, but I would say it was all in good humour. What I would say is he perhaps felt a little rehearsed and detached in his breakdown of the events around the disappearance. This could of course be put down to differences in culture and language proficiency, or simply that he's bored of being asked the same questions over and over."
About the Pianista hike- 8:12am - "Arrive at El Pianista restaurant. The walk from the restaurant to the forest is straightforward and well maintained. Very obvious which direction to head." [Scarlet: Feliciano appears to have his car parked near the trailhead, interestingly. Boileddogs adds great photos which are really sharp and colourful, showing the by now very recognizable Pianista trail].
- "Up until the point of the Mirador the path had been relatively easy, perhaps of a medium difficulty. It's also important to point out that we encountered no other people and very little wildlife (except for one dog near the beginning and a crab) on this portion of the hike. There was one path almost all the way; the odd time I saw the path splinter off it would rejoin the main path 10-20 metres further down. There was maybe one time I saw the path splinter off with no sign of it rejoining, but it was fairly obvious that this was a sub-path away from the main path. We all agreed as a group that it was near impossible to get lost up until this point. You should also have mobile phone data all the way up until the Mirador, although obviously this might not have been the case in 2014."
- "2 hours after starting out we reach the summit. [Very similar timings to that of Kris & Lisanne].
- About the summit: "Weirdly there's no sign to say that you have reached the top and should turn back. In fact, there is little indication that you should turn around at all; the path appears to continue and doesn't seem to be any worse than what came before it. Anyone unaware of what lies ahead would assume that there is more to see beyond the Mirador (or that the path loops / leads somewhere else)." [Scarlet: That loop again... As Dave M. says: "The legend remains so strong that even though a lot of our understanding has moved along since then, a lot of people will still hold onto the Loop trail notion"]
- Boileddogs writes in another Reddit comment: "The only wildlife we encountered was the odd dog (belonging to natives in the area) and birds. It felt like there was a real absence of wildlife to be honest. Definitely no pigs, and Tigers aren't present in the Americas. Maybe you mean big cats.. Feliciano said he's seen one in his 20 years of hiking the trail. Make of that what you will."
Other side of the Mirador -10:50am - "The path starts to become more difficult to traverse and those mud walls spring up again on either side. Whilst the path up could be described as picturesque, this side has a more ominous feel to it."
-11am - "A bit of a view across the cloud forest. I remember thinking: I find it odd that the girls didn't take a photo here, especially since they probably had near-perfect weather conditions and could probably have seen the ocean in the distance. [Scarlet: Power-Pixie wrote me in this respect: "What stood out immediately were the beautiful photos, especially the one that shows the very picturesque vista at 11am. Just imagine that gorgeous weather on April 1st, 2014. But no photo. Hans was right all the time. He and Roelie have seen this as well." And Dave M. also stated: "This is an astute comment, and it also picks up on our own puzzlement as to why there are so few pictures taken on the Boquete side of the climb upwards". Indeed. Especially when seeing stunning photos like these (added on the right), which should in my opinion, together with the Mirador shots, be the highlight of this hikes' overall photo session. Were Kris and Lisanne feeling unsettled at this point and did they not want to stand still to take some nice compositional photos on the other side of the Mirador? Were they perhaps no longer alone at this point? Or is there another explanation?]
-11:10am - "The steep walls and muddy walkways make this a cumbersome and slightly less enjoyable segment of our walk. They are relentless. But you simply cannot go in any direction apart from forward. Although there is a definitive contrast to the Boquete side, it's worth pointing out that it's not exactly the Amazon. There's still a distinctive path to follow and you're not fighting off dangerous animals. By all accounts it's pretty tame."
-11:41am - "A dog appears out of nowhere from behind us and starts barking. A few seconds later we have our first human encounter in over 3 hours. It's a local 'Indiano' - someone Feliciano clearly knows personally. Feliciano says he's one of the team that helped with the search back in 2014; he's on the way to his house in the jungle somewhere."
-11:54am - "Just over 1 hour after leaving the Mirador we reach a spot that feels strangely familiar: the place I assume to be the location of photo 508. This is also our turn-around point, as we can't really cross the stream easily and I get the impression people in the group don't want to go much further. Up until this point it has been a single path with no turn-offs or drop-offs; more so on this side of the Mirador in fact compared to the Boquete side" The author also writes that at this point OP is hungry and feels like having food. "The girls would have been in a similar state if not worse, as they had packed little-to-nothing in terms of food. The only thing that they had on us was the weather, with the paths most likely being less muddy. At the time I probably would have gone further beyond the stream given the opportunity, but it would have been a decision born out of curiosity rather than commonsense. With all of this in mind, I cannot fathom for one moment why the girls chose to continue beyond this point. At a minimum, they would have at least been starting to get hungry, as their last meal would have been around 4 hours ago. At most they would have been pretty exhausted (you could see that everyone in our group by this point was beginning to feel the effects of the changes in altitude along the trail)."
- Confirms that "there's also 0 mobile signal here".
-12pm - "Begrudgingly start our hike back the way we came, back to Boquete. Realise that my budget hiking boots are beginning to fall apart". [Scarlet: compare this to a statement from Plinio about the found boots of Kris and Lisanne, while talking to author Britt Vasarhely: "The boots did not show enough wear, he thinks, to have endured a 15-hour trek to the place where the handful of bones, backpack, and footwear were finally discovered. The girls, the guide believes, were abducted soon after they began their trek, perhaps not long after they crested the Continental Divide and headed unknowingly down the Caribbean side instead of back to their hostel in Boquete."]
"There was also not much to see on the jungle side except for the stream pictured in photo 508; it definitely felt more like a slog at this point"
DURING THE RETURN
-1pm - "On our way back we meet a local family from Alto Romero who are hiking back with food and supplies. Their child of maybe 2 or 3 is walking the hike with them (i.e. not being carried). Feliciano says the walk will take them 2 days and they will sleep whenever it gets dark, on the jungle floor."-2pm - "We cross-paths with another local and his dog. Feliciano stops them for a brief conversation."
- Notice the size of Feliciano's machete by the way.
-2:30pm - "We get back to the Il Pianista restaurant, Feliciano invites us to his house to try his coffee. 3 of us say yes". [Scarlet: Boileddogs makes it clear that Feliciano basically recruits tourists after these hikes to come to his coffee farm. Shifting his pre-packed coffee to them. For extra income. Notice how the farm tour comes áfter the actual hike here. Is it possible that the tour which Kris and Lisanne booked with Feliciano for Wednesday April 2nd - according to Feliciano - was in fact also a hike combined with a visit to his own coffee place? It has never been entirely clear what the Wednesday tour would consist of exactly. NOTICE how in the Lost in Panama podcast from Jeremy Kryt, which I fully covered here, Feliciano is heard stating to police about The Appointment he had with Kris and Lisanne: "They call me to tell me the two young women I had seen at the school wanted to go to Mister Filo's Farm (?) in Alto Quiel. I didn't have any commitments the next day, so I told her I'd pick them up at 8 o'clock in the morning at the school. That's what we agreed on." - Could this "Mr. Filo" perhaps simply be a sly code name for Mr. Feliciano himself? Just like Feliciano's brother Domingo Gonzalez was disingenuously called (hidden as) 'José D.G.' by certain unreliable authors? We never before heard even once about a Mr. Filo. Neither from Ingrid or Eileen. I think there has been a conscious attempt made in general over the years to muddle the narrative and throw in as many disorientating suggestions as possible. 'They had a coffee tour booked!' 'NO, it was a strawberry farm'. 'No they wanted to go to Baru'. Same for whether or not Feliciano met them or not. Same for when he last saw them. Or when he went out looking for them exactly.]
GENERAL IMPRESSIONS
-THE PATH: "As orientation goes it was very easy. In terms of difficulty it was moderate, bordering on hard once on the other side of the Mirador (particularly due to the mud). There was also not much to see on the jungle side except for the stream pictured in photo 508; it definitely felt more like a slog at this point." [Scarlet: Power-Pixie wrote me in response to this: "The same feeling like Kris and Lisanne probably had, judging by Kris's facial expression and body language in photos 507 and 508. She didn't feel like she wanted to go on, and perhaps neither did Lisanne. Were they now aware that the Bandiya were behind them?"]
-EASY HIKE: "Over the course of the entire hike I saw only one fork in the path, about halfway up to the Mirador. Otherwise it's probably one of the most straightforward hikes I've ever done in terms of orientation. One of the guys on the hike even jokingly remarked after the hike that we effectively paid $50 each to be told about the indigenous birds and flora, as there was otherwise no real need for a guide. There was also no significant drop-offs at any point. I asked Feliciano about the path beyond the stream to which he said that it becomes much more maze-like and cumbersome. However we know from the Kremers-parents video that this is not entirely true, at least for the first hour or so (it even looks like it opens up into fields at one point)." - [So is Feliciano's still trying to peddle his narrative?]
-EASY HIKE: "Over the course of the entire hike I saw only one fork in the path, about halfway up to the Mirador. Otherwise it's probably one of the most straightforward hikes I've ever done in terms of orientation. One of the guys on the hike even jokingly remarked after the hike that we effectively paid $50 each to be told about the indigenous birds and flora, as there was otherwise no real need for a guide. There was also no significant drop-offs at any point. I asked Feliciano about the path beyond the stream to which he said that it becomes much more maze-like and cumbersome. However we know from the Kremers-parents video that this is not entirely true, at least for the first hour or so (it even looks like it opens up into fields at one point)." - [So is Feliciano's still trying to peddle his narrative?]
THE LOCALS THEY ENCOUNTER
"I got the impression that almost all of the locals we ran into along the trail were slightly cold and standoffish towards us, to the point that the majority wouldn't look at us directly or say hello. Feliciano would make a point of talking to all of them but even their exchanges didn't seem to be overtly warm/organic." [Scarlet: has this always been the case? Or do locals treat him more cold and standoffish now that this case has blown up in Boquete's face lately?] "This again could be put down to cultural norms here. It was very reminiscent of the segment in the Lost in the wild documentary, where the hosts fly to Alto Romero to speak to the locals and don't really get anywhere."
- Boileddogs ran into 4 locals along the trail:
"I got the impression that almost all of the locals we ran into along the trail were slightly cold and standoffish towards us, to the point that the majority wouldn't look at us directly or say hello. Feliciano would make a point of talking to all of them but even their exchanges didn't seem to be overtly warm/organic." [Scarlet: has this always been the case? Or do locals treat him more cold and standoffish now that this case has blown up in Boquete's face lately?] "This again could be put down to cultural norms here. It was very reminiscent of the segment in the Lost in the wild documentary, where the hosts fly to Alto Romero to speak to the locals and don't really get anywhere."
- Boileddogs ran into 4 locals along the trail:
*11:41am - a local Indiano pops up, one of Feliciano's team mates who helped with the searches.
*1pm - On the way back they meet a family (parents and 2-3 year old child) with food and supplies who will hike all the way to AR.
*2pm - Cross paths with another local and his dog. [Comment from Dave M: "Note the golden 1-2pm threshold that Imperfectplan also already took notice of. Peak traffic on the Pianista as people head home, headed either way."]
Feliciano is asked about Kris and Lisanne- "I feign ignorance and ask Feliciano what happened to the girls who are mentioned on the monument. He replies that it is not an easy answer, and then the following conversation unfolds: (n.b. I recorded this exchange on my phone, just to ensure I didn't forget anything that was said. I also stupidly opened a bag of nuts at the same time, and so some of it was difficult to transcribe)." HIGHLIGHTS OF IT:
G = the group; F = Feliciano
G: *Inaudible* 6 months later they found the girls?
F: No no not 6 months, 6 weeks; 2 and a half months after. When the Indianos discovered the bag in the river. I organised the search
F: I organised the search. We did the evidence, we found the shoes in the river *inaudible*
G: How many people helped looking?
F: For me 9. We did. The rest of the people, 6 Indianos. Who know the area. My brother and all his friends, because they know very well.
But the Dutch people moved us… The helicopter *inaudible* other side of the mountain, where we organised the Indianos. But the government they make nothing quick. Problema, yeah. You see everything eh..
G: Is it easy to get lost?
F: Ya ya ya
G: Not like this -pointing down to the path we’ve taken-
F: No because, for example, see we walk that distance, we did from Boquete to here. If we do from here the same distance -pointing to beyond the Mirador- ya we can make maybe 3 different paths, and the jungle, the mountains. But no heart(?) and no people. People live very far from there
G: But if you walk long enough you will find other people right? There is people living there?
F: Yeah not for very far. From here. If we continue walking. It’s 2 day. Not like here we do(?) slowly. Walking walking. It’s 2 day. For the first house. First house that you see on the trail. It’s only good luck see that people meet other people, Indiano. Yeah it’s easy, people cross normally between the houses between village between the.. after the second day. Today. Exactly today. Any (no?) houses. Only jungle (Can’t really work out what he was trying to say here.. maybe the fact we wouldn’t see houses today on our 1 day hike?)
F: The river. Big river. Big river. Big river . But the other side *inaudible* water water like this -sweeping motion with his hands- (I think he was trying to say the streams / rivers are more violent on the other side of the mirador). See if we continue, maybe not continue very long, because the weather, I don’t know how the weather. For example if strong rain in the afternoon, difficult on the paths. Possibly I don’t know. 40-45 minutes? The other side. But you see also how it is the other side
- The group splits and go our separate ways: half with Feliciano to beyond the Mirador, half with Henry back to Boquete."
Boileddogs beliefs and speculations:
-Kris and Lisanne dropped their camera, hence why there is no photo 509 and an 8 day hiatus [Scarlet: highly unlikely in my book and frankly mindboggling that a detail as important as the photography stopping at 2pm can so easily be waved aside here as Lisanne dropping the camera into the water (when there is not a single indication of this in the later night photo series) or an act-of-god malfunction knocking it out...].-Believes that K+L continued at the point of #508 and walked all the way to the paddock.
-Believes K+L felt in a hurry then to go back to Boquete and either consciously took a different route back, hoping for a shortcut, or mistakenly went off route. For instance by wading through the stream pictured in #508. [Scarlet: Interesting. But really? This stream which Boileddogs posted a video of? Showing just how steep and dangerous it looks, seemingly confirming that no one in their right mind is going to leave the paved trail in order to walk either up, or down this stream unprovoked?].
-They got lost, realised this and tried to call 112 twice. They didn't stay put and wandered further off into the wilderness. [Hence why Sinaproc and volunteers and dogs and heli's never found them ever again? As Power-Pixie correctly stated: "Not everyone who has half a brain will be scaling the high walls of the trail or braving the thicket of bushes without a machete to go exploring"].
-Acknowledges that the trail is frequented by locals: "The trail is walked by locals regularly.. it's essentially the pedestrian highway between Bocas and Boquete, and the only way to get to the settlements in the jungle. Feliciano told us there are indigenous people living in houses all along the path, but unless you knew where to look you wouldn't see one for 2 days hiking towards Bocas. However he also said that he could find one in half an hour if we were to turn off at certain points, and these are the places he would stay when he used to hike across to Bocas over the course of a few days. This means the girls were likely never that far from potential help (or danger), and shouting (which I'm sure they would have been doing a lot of at least initially) would have inevitably alerted someone to their presence."
-"Based on the number of people I saw whilst hiking, and the fact that back on April 1st 2014 the girls had more favourable weather conditions, I feel it would be near impossible for them not to cross paths with someone at some point along the hike. At a minimum I believe an indigenous person(s) came into contact with the girls whilst they weren't lost, maybe they just said hello as they passed each other. Maybe the girls simply asked for directions. Either way, I would expect at least someone to have known the girls were on the path that day, probably beyond the Mirador, and vulnerable."
-Then Boileddogs throws in a foul play element: "At some point after April 3rd and before April 11th, I believe a 3rd party came across the girls when they were deceased, or potentially very close to dying. I believe they panicked and something potentially sinister happened at this point (this might have simply been a local stealing the backpack). Word got out amongst the local community and someone with specific interests in protecting tourism in the area got involved; damage control. A 'task force' then set out to dispose of the remains and ensure nothing was found by SINAPROC or the Dutch search teams. Reading the reports from the time, I feel pressure was even put on them from somewhere to contain searches on the Boquete side of the Mirador in those early stages of the operation. As the initial interest in the case died down the belongings were planted along the river along with just enough body parts to allow the investigators to identify the pair and declare the case as death by misadventure, but not enough to allow any significant post-mortem to be carried out" [Scarlet: Does this in effect make Feliciano complicit to some level? And why believe 'something potentially sinister' could have happened áfter they got Lost first, in an illogical manner, thereby making the narrative a lot more complex than just accepting that something sinister could have simply swept them off the safe trail and into harms way in the first place? Including even a large scale cover up.. Occam's Razor (Reddit's absolute hero, although often misrepresented there) will not like this overcomplication of things... Just saying].
-Boileddogs also does not buy the official info about the phones having survived extensive water damage: "The data from all 3 devices was fully retrievable and the contents of the backpack were neatly folded. This is a serious red-flag for me: anyone who owned a phone in 2014 knows that any interaction with water led to serious problems." [Scarlet: agreed].
Boileddogs also finds the following suspicious:*"The suspicious deaths of the taxi driver, as well as two of Henry's friends: Osman and José."
*Eileen and Feliciano's unaccompanied time spent in the girls room on the first day of the disappearance. The fact someone spent time in their room before anyone else; claims to have met the girls and arranged a hike the next day (despite no mention in the girls diary of this); has their card conveniently on the girls bed; and then ends up locating most of the girls remains and belongings should absolutely raise concerns."
-"The fact the police were only notified of the disappearance at 6pm the following day."
-"The photos uploaded to by Plinio, one of the guides in area, in the years following along with his reverted testimony at the time. Plinio was reportedly on the mountain and passed the girls on April 1st 2014 (he then retracted that statement, of course). He also posted photos to social media a few days after the girls went missing that were incredibly similar to the shots that were later found on the girls' camera"
-"The obscure witness testimony from someone (whose name I forget) who was adamant of meeting with the girls later that afternoon. He was not the only one so insistent to have seen them later in the day back in Boquete- why? They would have been a very distinctive pair walking around town."
-"The condition and lack of remains, compared to that of the backpack and the items within. I've never been able to understand how the same river that smashed Kris’s pelvis into several pieces (it apparently takes around 2,000-10,000 newtons or 450-2,250lbs of force to smash a pelvis) within a 5km stretch, also managed to carry and drop off the backpack even further downstream, still intact with all data from the electronics recoverable (just with severe water damage obviously)."
-"The lack of any reference to the pianista trails in either of the girls' diaries."
-"The 'bloodied temple' claim from Kryt in the original Daily Beast article. This is a pretty unforgivable mistake to make on such a high profile case- a bloodied temple changes the entire narrative. Why make such a wild claim without sufficient evidence? Interestingly I had a brief exchange with Kryt over Facebook a few years ago regarding his articles. He ignored me after I asked about that particular point"
-"Why would the girls embark on the walk themselves if they'd planned to go with a guide the following day? To be so impulsive simply doesn't fit with their pattern of behaviour or profiles up until that point (as a side note, literally all the people I met from the Netherlands on this trip were ultra-regimented in how they planned out their trip- a far cry from my spontaneous, day-by-day approach to travelling at the time)."
Good questions and points made. But also some display of odd mind gymnastics when it came to the overall theory. But everyone is entitled to their opinions - copied or not - and at least Boileddogs has gone beyond what most do and went to Boquete to gather firsthand impressions. And as Dave M. said: what a fine firsthand experience and assessment this is. For instance the notes made about the fatigue everyone was feeling by the time they reached the stream. The beginnings of hunger. The impulse to say 'enough' by this stage and turn back. All of these things the writer describes, underlining in the process that those feeling are entirely valid to project also on Lisanne and Kris' experience. You put the three experiences, these three examples, together (along with imperfectplan's and Hans and Roelie's similar conviction) and it shows a very strong consensus. The stream is as far as any normal person is likely to want to go on the trail. Enough is enough at this point. But it remains a mystery what exactly happened to Kris and Lisanne after this moment in time.
Good questions and points made. But also some display of odd mind gymnastics when it came to the overall theory. But everyone is entitled to their opinions - copied or not - and at least Boileddogs has gone beyond what most do and went to Boquete to gather firsthand impressions. And as Dave M. said: what a fine firsthand experience and assessment this is. For instance the notes made about the fatigue everyone was feeling by the time they reached the stream. The beginnings of hunger. The impulse to say 'enough' by this stage and turn back. All of these things the writer describes, underlining in the process that those feeling are entirely valid to project also on Lisanne and Kris' experience. You put the three experiences, these three examples, together (along with imperfectplan's and Hans and Roelie's similar conviction) and it shows a very strong consensus. The stream is as far as any normal person is likely to want to go on the trail. Enough is enough at this point. But it remains a mystery what exactly happened to Kris and Lisanne after this moment in time.
Reddit wise; For anyone with an open mind or leaning to foul play, and for anyone with not a lot of free time to trowel through endless pseudo-intellectual essay replies or time for trolling, my view remains: stay clear. This once interesting forum has been hijacked by a small clique of Lost fanatics and guide F. defenders, and moderators are as good as absent. It's no longer the place for interesting debate and respectful exchange of ideas. Just a losters' echo chamber with a troubling pack mentality. Waiting for anyone who thinks differently to post there, so they can jump on them and hurl their 'rational' convictions at them while ridiculing where possible. Some people on there have direct ties with Boquete, but pretend not to. A negative and at times toxic place on the internet, which is a real shame as it used to be a great platform for debate. But nowadays (unless of course you love that sort of angry squabbling, name-calling and spunk) there are better places to discuss your more balanced theories. 
The opinion of two Panamanians
Jorge wrote on December 12th, 2022: "They were killed. Whenever tourists have been lost in Panama they have been found. Two women alone in a forest and they turn up dead. The jungle is larger in Darién and even there people find a way out."
Pink wrote on December 21st, 2022: "That was never accidental! We all know that. What Panama does not want is to understand that we failed as a tourist destination and we continue to do so. That there are no active personnel in those parks taking care of it and that there are still no surveillance cameras, impossible. This was never an accident and it was not investigated to whom the other remains of other victims found belonged. One of the remains was washed with what appears to be a Lime chemical, which is found naturally but not in the area, but is used on soils to lower the ph, which is possible in coffee plantations. No way Jose! That is not an accident but we are incapable and crime increases."
Why I Think Foul Play Was Involved
By MickeyMouseRings
March 29th, 2022
"Hello everybody. My personal stance with this case is that I think foul-play was involved in the disappearance of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon, and I will explain why. Now that doesn't mean my mind can't be changed if I see convincing evidence that they got into an accident, got lost, and died. But as of now that has not happened yet. I also want to note that a few days from now, it will mark 8 years since the girls disappeared (April 1st). This is crazy to think about. Rest in peace Kris and Lisanne, and prayers to their families and friends. Now let's get into it.
Point 1 - The Strange Night Photos & The InconsistenciesThese photos don't tell us if the girls were dead and alive at that point. These night photos were only taken on one night, for 4 hours. This activity did not happen on any other nights, and oddly enough there were no daytime photos taken during their disappearance. There were no helicopters flying at night so I don't know who they could have been "signalling". If they were signalling, why take random stay still photos of the rock with twigs, the "SOS sign", the hair, and the big cliff wall with vegetation? It's all so strange and doesn't make sense. I just have a little doubt that the girls were the ones to take these photos. I don't believe these photos are supposed to show anything, or at least it doesn't seem that way, they are just random. Personally, I believe that these night photos were a big red herring to throw off the authorities. If we think about it, there was not really a risk with taking these photos. They are random. There's no purpose to them, we can't tell if Kris or Lisanne are alive at that point, and no other person is shown in the photos. The hair photo was taken in such a way where we literally can't tell the status of Kris. Also the people who have access to the unreleased night photos have also said that there isn't anything special about them and they don't tell us the status of Kris and Lisanne at that point, and they don't favour any theory. So I think it's safe to say that all night photos are just pointless, random, and are not intending to show us anything important. But rather was some strategy to throw off detectives into thinking the girls were lost and were signalling for help.
I believe the backpack and remains were planted by the perpetrators for the 2 following reasons:1) To let themselves off the hook.
I think this is the primary and main reason why the evidence was planted. Before any evidence of the girls was found, the general suspicion was that the girls were abducted and murdered. The nerves were likely getting to the perpetrators, and they had to choose to either do nothing and get caught eventually, or take a risk with planting evidence to stay off the hook and confuse the authorities into believing the girls got into an accident and died. And if this was the case, this worked out for them pretty well, because this case was dropped after the evidence was found and investigated, and the consensus became that the girls got into an accident and died. Although some locals likely still believe that the girls were killed to this day. They are likely quiet to avoid any trouble. Let's also not forget how poorly and lazily this case was investigated.
2) The $30,000 reward offered for any information of their disappearance.
A $30,000 reward was offered by the parents of Kris and Lisanne for finding any information of the girl's disappearance. Shortly after this, the remains and the backpack suddenly surfaced and were found and turned into the police. I think this is a plausible reason for the perpetrators to start planting evidence with hopes of claiming this money. $30,000 is an absolute huge amount of money, especially in a developing country like Panama. I still think the 1st reason I mentioned is the main reason, but this 2nd reason is definitely solid in my opinion and could have definitely played a part in the planting of the girls' remains.
Point 3 - The Hair Photo
This does not look like the hair of a person who is lost in a humid and dirty jungle for 8 days and I stand by that. I have still not seen a logical and convincing explanation as to why Kris' hair looks fluffy and clean, with the circumstances the girls have had. Even looking at the colour corrected version, the hair still to me does not look like hair for someone lost in a dirty and rainy jungle, fighting for their life. Her hair looks almost untouched, how? It really doesn't make sense. Do y'all really believe this is normal? I don't. Even if you wash hair using river water, I don't understand how you make it look so fluffy. The hair would also look frizzy not having used hair products. I myself can't even explain this.Point 4 - The Swimming Photo
This photo was taken at Caldera Hot Springs, found on Osman's phone. The boys in the photo appear to be locals Osman Venezuela and Jose Manuel Murgas. They both died shortly after Kris and Lisanne disappeared. We still don't know if the girls in the photo are Kris and Lisanne, but they look pretty similar which is scary. I know the photo is really bad quality but you can still see some similarities to Kris and Lisanne. See this comparison below that Scarlet made. You see what I mean? The shapes of their faces, height difference, and hair colour all clearly indicate to me that these girls are Kris and Lisanne. We still don't know of course, but I personally believe it is them. Osman and Jose were friends with guide Feliciano's son, Henry Gonzalez. They were all apparently a part of a youth gang.
Murder in Panama appears to be a scarily common thing, which is crazy. It seems like anyone, at anytime, can just disappear and get murdered surrounding the area where the girls disappeared. What does that say? That the place surrounding the girls' disappearance is not anywhere near safe. Osman, Jose, and Jorge were friends with Henry Gonzalez, who is a son of Feliciano Gonzalez, the tour guide who met Kris and Lisanne. Osman was a part of the Sinaproc search team. He went to look for Kris and Lisanne on April 4th, but he did not return from the search and was later found dead. Before he went missing, his mother said that he seemed agitated about something.Osman Venezuela - Disappeared only 3 days after the girls went missing. He was a part of the Sinaproc search team and he himself went to look for the girls on April 4th before he himself went missing. He was later found dead from drowning (likely homicide). He was in the "Swimming Photo" (This photo was on his phone). He was friends with guide Feliciano's son.
Jose Manuel Murgas - Killed only a year after the girls went missing in a hit and run collision. He was in the "Swimming Photo". He was friends with guide Feliciano's son.
Jose Manuel Murgas - Killed only a year after the girls went missing in a hit and run collision. He was in the "Swimming Photo". He was friends with guide Feliciano's son.
Jorge Rivera Miranda - Drowned in very shallow water only a year after the girls went missing. He was friends with guide Feliciano's son.
Leonardo Arturo Gonzalez - Found dead from drowning in recreational waters only 8 months after the girls went missing. He was apparently the girls' taxi driver, but I can't confirm that. Leonardo claimed to have seen the girls be picked up by an off-road vehicle, and he apparently knew more than he publicly stated about what he witnessed.
Leonardo Arturo Gonzalez - Found dead from drowning in recreational waters only 8 months after the girls went missing. He was apparently the girls' taxi driver, but I can't confirm that. Leonardo claimed to have seen the girls be picked up by an off-road vehicle, and he apparently knew more than he publicly stated about what he witnessed.
Point 6 - Lack Of Messages From The Girls
There were no found notes or messages left on either phone in the girls' disappearance, and no attempts to call or text their parents or friends even once. Myriam was looked up on WhatsApp once in their disappearance, but that's about it. They didn't look up their parents or friends at all. I know this is something that is talked about a lot, but it still does not make sense, like the hair photo. But let's be real, most things in this case make no sense. Kris and Lisanne would text or call their parents every day in Boquete, but not even once in sheer panic once they found themselves in distress. Before their disappearance, Kris and Lisanne used to write in their diaries every day. I heard from one source that Lisanne once missed 3 or so days in her diary, and she later made sure to fill out those days and not leave any day out. This must have been a passion for them, which kind of just faded. Of course it is hard to say how their mind was working if they were lost, because I haven't experienced such circumstances thankfully, but I still think that this is pretty uncharacteristic of the girls, as they loved to write and had good relationships with their parents.
Point 7 - Phone ActivityThere were no found notes or messages left on either phone in the girls' disappearance, and no attempts to call or text their parents or friends even once. Myriam was looked up on WhatsApp once in their disappearance, but that's about it. They didn't look up their parents or friends at all. I know this is something that is talked about a lot, but it still does not make sense, like the hair photo. But let's be real, most things in this case make no sense. Kris and Lisanne would text or call their parents every day in Boquete, but not even once in sheer panic once they found themselves in distress. Before their disappearance, Kris and Lisanne used to write in their diaries every day. I heard from one source that Lisanne once missed 3 or so days in her diary, and she later made sure to fill out those days and not leave any day out. This must have been a passion for them, which kind of just faded. Of course it is hard to say how their mind was working if they were lost, because I haven't experienced such circumstances thankfully, but I still think that this is pretty uncharacteristic of the girls, as they loved to write and had good relationships with their parents.
On April 1st, 2 phone calls were made to 911, one each from both of the girls' phones at 16:39 and 16:51. Around an hour later, both phones were shut off for the rest of the day until the next morning. To me this activity seems strange. They call for help twice, and give up for the rest of the day. You are in a foreign country across the world, presumably deep into the trek in a cloud forest, lost and/or injured, and you only try to get help 2 times? I don't know man.. I don't even know if I can believe someone can act this rationally in such circumstances. I just don't understand why they shut their phones off after an hour, they were clearly in distress. Could their phones have been turned off by someone? And were they taken somewhere after? Can that explain why the phones didn't pick up any signal if they did return from the trail? I don't know. Between April 2nd-3rd, the Samsung phone was turned on for 15 hours straight, ultimately draining it to ONE percent. Rendering it useless. Was conserving battery not important to them? I don't know. Between midday April 6th and April 10th, there was zero activity between the two phones. No attempts to check signal or call for help. We know that the night images were taken on April 8th, but during that period the phones were remained shut. Why were the phones off for so long? I don't know.Point 8 - German Tourist Who Claimed To Have Seen Lisanne & Kris
Credit to Scarlet & Her Blog:
In the early days of the police investigations into the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne, there was also a statement made by a German tourist, Marcus M., who claimed to a local forest ranger at a control station that he witnessed that Kris and Lisanne had been beaten and thrown down a ravine. [...] Marcus had arrived in Boquete on April 4th and this event had taken place on April 5th he claimed, at Cerro Punta at the Quetzal Trail. He was the one who claimed to have heard a female voice screaming for help, followed by a loud bang. He then claimed to have witnessed two men crouching and hiding in the bushes, after which he ran away in fear. Senafront did visit the spot in the evening and searched for the women, but they found nothing (aside from the German tourists own plastic water bottle).
This sounds horrifying, and this is not the only source that has claimed to have heard screaming. Sometimes we people sitting behind monitors can forget how horrifying these places can be. Murders, drug trafficking, organ trafficking, assaults, kidnappings, you name it. They happen, these things happen in Panama and it does not sound rare.
Point 9 - Screams heard on night of April 1st By A French CoupleVarious sources claim a couple French tourists didn’t go to the same Pianista trail on the day following the girls' disappearance (April 2nd) because some local told them not to go as screams of two girls were heard in the night before. The French couple wrote about this in their blog. Translation:
"At the guard post, we meet a guy who, the day before, heard frightened cries of two girls, then a loud sound of falling, and then saw three guys on the path. This explains the presence today of many cops or rescuers on the trail looking for the girls. After the picnic we descend by the same path, a little disturbed by this story and the possibility that the two Dutch girls had a bad meeting in the area. Indeed, it is almost impossible to get lost on these well marked trails, even less for 4 days."
Point 10 - Dismissal Of Local Witness Testimony
All witness testimony that did not fit the lost story has been cast aside. Possibly because, it wouldn't fit into their "girls got into an accident and got lost" narrative, and they want to protect the tourism industry in Panama. A lot of locals in Boquete believe the girls were murdered. Many may not wish to talk now because that may get them into some problems.
Point 11 - Poor & Lazy Investigation
Why was so little care put into this case? Why? The Panamanian authorities have botched this case from the very beginning. And it is so damn unfortunate. This investigation was such a joke to the point that the families of the girls filed a lawsuit against the Panamanian authorities for the mishandling of the evidence. If they were trying to cover some dark secrets, a motive for that would be that they wanted to portray the picture that the girls were lost in order to protect their tourism reputation. A Dutch journalist mentioned the unprofessionalism by the Panamanian authorities to investigate the case at a criminal level. Here is what he had to say:
I see no reason for this couple to lie. Having looked at their blog, they seem like nice, genuine, innocent people. They would get nothing out of lying of some serious things like this. This is scary to hear and I just don't understand how y'all still think that the trail is safe. The truth is that two young, foreign, attractive tourists can be viewed as "easy targets". It does not sound far fetched that some creepy men can start bothering two girls and have evil intentions towards them. Especially in a high crime-rate country like Panama.
Point 10 - Dismissal Of Local Witness TestimonyAll witness testimony that did not fit the lost story has been cast aside. Possibly because, it wouldn't fit into their "girls got into an accident and got lost" narrative, and they want to protect the tourism industry in Panama. A lot of locals in Boquete believe the girls were murdered. Many may not wish to talk now because that may get them into some problems.
Point 11 - Poor & Lazy Investigation
Why was so little care put into this case? Why? The Panamanian authorities have botched this case from the very beginning. And it is so damn unfortunate. This investigation was such a joke to the point that the families of the girls filed a lawsuit against the Panamanian authorities for the mishandling of the evidence. If they were trying to cover some dark secrets, a motive for that would be that they wanted to portray the picture that the girls were lost in order to protect their tourism reputation. A Dutch journalist mentioned the unprofessionalism by the Panamanian authorities to investigate the case at a criminal level. Here is what he had to say:
For too long they considered a possible accident, or a possible case of them getting lost. And all that time they didn't invest in a proper criminal investigation. Therefore, very crucial time has been lost. Within hours, at the last days but ideally sooner, you need to interview all witnesses, in a very intensive and thorough manner. You need to do technical research very early on and investigate telephone data.
Point 14 - CCTV Recordings Of Kris & Lisanne Missing
Just including this as a bonus, I would take this with a grain of salt as I don't know how true the source is until I find more confirmation. I am including this because it is pretty interesting and could be plausible. There is a pharmacy shop in Boquete owned by Jorge Rivera Miranda's mother. Jorge (died a year later the girls disappeared) was a friend of Henry, guide Feliciano's son. Myriam, the host mother, said one of the girls was sick, so that would explain why they went to the pharmacy. Henry Gonzalez, son of tour guide Feliciano, was overhead while drunk talking about a run-in he had with Kris and Lisanne at that pharmacy. He apparently has interest in Dutch and foreign women. A woman also claimed she saw the girls get into a car (can't confirm).
It is so damn infuriating how they are able to be this lazy and careless and serve no consequences. Fucking ridiculous and it pisses me off. What a joke of a system. I feel bad for the parents having to deal with these useless dickheads who were unable to help them. They deserve so much better. The Panamanian authorities have failed these girls.
Point 12 - 1% Of Girls Bones Were Found & Some Were Found With Other People's Remains
The bones were also scattered very widely apart, sometimes kilometres apart. Feliciano's men found some small bones behind some tree. Pretty weird. They weren't capable of finding both girls in their full bodies while they were missing and alive, but they managed to pull off some detective magic and find some tiny bones behind a tree in the vegetation. Like finding a needle in a haystack type shit. Also, bones of 3 other people were found in close to where remains of the girls were found. All 3 of these people are unidentified till this day. Pretty damn strange if you ask me. Just seems like it's the norm for people to disappear and die with the authorities not giving a single fuck.
Point 13 - The Trail Is Well Marked And It's Hard To Get Lost On It
The only way personally I see them getting lost on that trail if they suffered a terrible accident which forced them off the trail. Many credible sources have said that getting off the trail takes a lot of effort. Kris' parents have said that getting lost on that trail looks nearly impossible. Kris' mother: You would really have to make an effort to get lost here. Kris' mother believes foul play took part in the girls' disappearance. Another credible source (ImperfectPlan) has stated the trail is clear and it is hard to get lost on it. The French couple (mentioned in Point 9) has said it is impossible to get lost on the trail. Myself having watched Romain's videos, I can myself say that the trail looks very clear. If you want to watch for yourself, here's a link. There are 4 parts, you can find the other ones if you click on Romain's channel.
Point 12 - 1% Of Girls Bones Were Found & Some Were Found With Other People's Remains
The bones were also scattered very widely apart, sometimes kilometres apart. Feliciano's men found some small bones behind some tree. Pretty weird. They weren't capable of finding both girls in their full bodies while they were missing and alive, but they managed to pull off some detective magic and find some tiny bones behind a tree in the vegetation. Like finding a needle in a haystack type shit. Also, bones of 3 other people were found in close to where remains of the girls were found. All 3 of these people are unidentified till this day. Pretty damn strange if you ask me. Just seems like it's the norm for people to disappear and die with the authorities not giving a single fuck.
Point 13 - The Trail Is Well Marked And It's Hard To Get Lost On ItThe only way personally I see them getting lost on that trail if they suffered a terrible accident which forced them off the trail. Many credible sources have said that getting off the trail takes a lot of effort. Kris' parents have said that getting lost on that trail looks nearly impossible. Kris' mother: You would really have to make an effort to get lost here. Kris' mother believes foul play took part in the girls' disappearance. Another credible source (ImperfectPlan) has stated the trail is clear and it is hard to get lost on it. The French couple (mentioned in Point 9) has said it is impossible to get lost on the trail. Myself having watched Romain's videos, I can myself say that the trail looks very clear. If you want to watch for yourself, here's a link. There are 4 parts, you can find the other ones if you click on Romain's channel.
Point 14 - CCTV Recordings Of Kris & Lisanne Missing
Just including this as a bonus, I would take this with a grain of salt as I don't know how true the source is until I find more confirmation. I am including this because it is pretty interesting and could be plausible. There is a pharmacy shop in Boquete owned by Jorge Rivera Miranda's mother. Jorge (died a year later the girls disappeared) was a friend of Henry, guide Feliciano's son. Myriam, the host mother, said one of the girls was sick, so that would explain why they went to the pharmacy. Henry Gonzalez, son of tour guide Feliciano, was overhead while drunk talking about a run-in he had with Kris and Lisanne at that pharmacy. He apparently has interest in Dutch and foreign women. A woman also claimed she saw the girls get into a car (can't confirm).
Thank You For Reading
I have probably forgot some stuff but this is a long post already and these points I have talked about are the main ones that lead me to believe in foul play involvement. I don't find these things "normal", and we may disagree, but this is just my opinion. If you agree, great! if you disagree, that's fine! At the end of the day each of us have our own viewpoints and opinions. Thanks everyone."
**************************
Ageb35 replied: "Well thought out and put together post. My biggest question is; why would locals go through so much trouble to make their deaths look like an accident when they could of just left the girls under some rocks in a creek and with the imminent rain season coming no one would of found anything. If they did it would of been several months later and no cause of death would of been plausible. Accidental death would of been listed. The biggest reason I don’t think it was foul play is due to there being so many people involved in the crime and cover up. Eventually someone would of said something, or slipped up somewhere. You could be absolutely correct however. Sadly, as you said it’s been 8 years. With little to no movement other than some “leaked” photos. Which I think should be questioned."
MickeyMouseRings replied: "I really don't know. That's a good question. Could it have been panic? Were they not confident that they wouldn't get caught? We can only speculate sadly."
MinorityReportAgain wrote: "Great post. Wasted here. The usual suspects will try to pull it apart because it’s not ‘on message’. Well done for mentioning the often overlooked point that the girls' families sued the Panamanian authorities over mishandling evidence. The entirely and deliberately botched ‘investigation’ that losters on here agree with the ‘conclusions’ of. Ludicrous."
MickeyMouseRings replied: "Yep, you are asking good questions. This is what makes this case confusing. Could the date of the photo be changed? I don't think that it's hard to do, I could change the metadata of the date a photo was created in seconds. Was the photo taken much earlier? Maybe around April 1st/2nd? I'm sure we can find other explanations but this is a quick one that I thought about."
crystalcastles13 wrote: "Very well put together. You make an extremely solid case for foul play and you’ve backed up your point ms so thoroughly. Totally thought provoking, nicely done my friend!"
Matej1889 wrote: "If the girls were thrown down a ravine, the ravine must still be there and it can be identified as the possible place where they fell. Though I still find odd to murder someone on such high frequented trail. For perpetrators to murder someone on the trail it would be too risky to get noticed by someone quickly. That’s why I think they were kidnapped and then killed. For example Lisannes foot metatarsal was broken which does not show she fell. Locals must know something. In such rural area it is impossible not to hear rumours which can turn out to be truth sometimes."
Paveclaw replied: "I have a feeling the locals all know what happened and perhaps were in on it to some extent. Their last diary entries were about how the school wasn’t ready for them and the girls were put off by this. Maybe they said something rude or offensive and or the locals were just tired of rich tourist throwing their money Around? And the way the locals provided no clues to what happened until evidence just showed up later."
GreenKing wrote: "What i think about phone calls is that the girls were probably already dead when they were reported missing and the search began. These calls were most likely made to buy some time before everyone realized that they were probably kidnapped and killed, so that they would think that they were still alive at a time when the killers were already in contact with the police and were also engaged in searches. This is a good alibi. Then further calls were made for the same reason. Each new day of searching, they made it clear that the girls were possibly alive. It was most likely convenient for them to make calls at a certain times. 1-2 calls per day was enough. But the girls went already silent. Not a single word from them been found or heard during all that time. [..] Its very obvious that police will look at them in the future."
More interesting posts from Ingles35 recently
November 11th, 2021"In a place like Panamá, if you have the right connections, you can get away with anything, especially if you have someone powerful protecting you. It is not like being in Europe or the States. Following Osman's murder, a group of people [including H., guide F's son and his mates, Scarlet] gatecrashed Osman's funeral and caused trouble. I was told that they WERE arrested, interrogated but then released! The chances are, they were the killers but they did what they did safe in the knowledge that nothing would happen to them. Who were they? I've got a bloody good idea I know who they were but no proof because we can't get a look at the police report of their arrest. You ask "where is the proof?" The proof has died with the witnesses - one by one almost all the witnesses have been murdered. Everyone who is left is too scared to talk. In this latest video, the author says the information comes from a witness who was the girlfriend of one of the perpetrators and who fled to Costa Rica where she gave a statement to the authorities."
"We know they were abducted and we know that some of the pictures were manipulated but there are some (mostly gringos and people with vested interests in tourism) that want to deny this. [..] I was told Edwin and Henry are the killers. Edwin has drug-gang connections, I was told. They mentioned the hut, the cave and the hot springs [and] why Osman was killed. Also that the girls were spotted in Bocas, which I have long suspected. [I was told about] involvement of the language school, which I have wondered about but have no hard evidence for. The witness is a former girlfriend of one of the perpetrators so maybe at last we shall get some justice. Let's hope so. [..] Guide F.'s stepson is the prime suspect! Edwin Aguirre is also in the frame. He has disappeared. If anyone knows where he is, please let us know. [..] I was warned last week that I am now in the crosshairs and I need to be very careful. The only people who believe in the lost theory are gringos (and I don't mean that in a rude way) and people with a vested interest in the tourism industry (you know who you are!). Everyone from Latin America believes it is foul play. I think it could have been an infatuation with the hair and skin colour, coupled with the fact that Kris was seen as fun and exciting. I think if you are a young women you could be in danger if alone or with another girl. One of the things you can do to stay safer is to let people know where you are going, who the guide is and when you are expecting to return."
"Osman's death is the most suspicious one because it is said that he was threatened in a bar/restaurant in the presence of JM Murgas following a conversation about the Dutch girls. Someone said to him "you're dead!" (in Spanish). As yet, I have not been able to find out which bar/restaurant. And that is important because if it was one of the Sabrosón restaurants, Edwin Aguirre (son of the owners) might have been present ..... and he has disappeared, as well! Osman's mother said Osman was nervous and agitated in the days between the girls' disappearance and his death. A blog post in the Boquete expat community said that Osman had been found in the river with his head and feet smashed in (remember that Lisanne's foot was found with a broken metatarsal which was not consistent with a fall!). It also stated that a group of youths gatecrashed Osman's funeral and caused a disturbance. I think if we could identify them we would have Osman's killers. He deserves justice, as well as Kris and Lisanne and I'm sure their deaths are linked. Incidentally, JM Murgas, Osman's friend, was killed the following year!
"I'm not local to Boquete, but I am in contact with people there and other investigators. I am 99% sure who the murderer was and why he did it - I'm not completely sure who the accomplices were but Osman's death was murder and it is connected. Once you find out who killed him you have your man. Feliciano is not the killer. A lot of people in Boquete know what happened and they know Feliciano did not kill those girls. If you want to find out who kidnapped and tortured them, just find the guys who killed Osman and interrupted his funeral. Osman knew what happened to K & L and argued with the kidnappers. They were frightened that he would give them away and tell where Kris was being held. That's why he was killed. Why they interrupted his funeral is anybody's guess. It was incredibly stupid because it pointed the finger at them. Apparently, the police interviewed them. Why were they not arrested and charged? Where are the interview statements?
The cave is apparently not far from a track but definitely hidden from view so that it won't be seen from the track. The only way you'd find it is if you knew it was there. This has been confirmed by two sources. Also, there is running water nearby. I think the night photos were taken at the cave where Kris was held. The second snippet is that Kris was the target because she was seen as fun and feisty. Lisanne was seen as quiet and not fun. She was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. She was very scared and just didn't want to be with the guys, even though they appeared to be fun at first but turned out to be evil personified. She was killed by a blow to the head with a rock/stone. It was as if she had a premonition, a sixth sense that something bad was going to happen. This has come from a single source, so, as yet can't be corroborated. However, it fits in exactly with the foreboding she felt at the airport and the bad feeling she wrote about in her diary. It is not clear at what point Lisanne was murdered. I don't know if she was held in the cave with Kris or not. Whilst in the cave Kris was tortured by at least two guys, one of whom had a sort of Oriental appearance. A third guy present had an argument with the two bad guys and said he did not want anything to do with the matter and left. Could this be poor Osman? He was found dead a few days later. The thing I cannot find out is what actually happened to Kris in the end. So far there is no word of what happened after she was held in the cave. The photos are important, though, and not just the night photos."
"There is a lot of debate about the swimming photo. The latest witness to come forward says it was taken on April 1st. Osman was killed a few days later so one can assume that the photo is of the Dutch girls. The two guys in the swimming picture are said to be Osman Valenzuela and José Manuel Murgas - both are dead. The one who took the photo is said to be Edwin Aguirre - now missing. I think that photo was possibly taken by a man. Kris was a very attractive girl and her hair was one of her best features. In Panamá, a girl with hair that colour is going to really stand out and will be in the top 1% of beauty. So, it is very likely that any man present is going to want a souvenir photo of that hair. So, who is the man, you ask - could be one of the guys in the photo at Caldera Hot Springs or the one who took the photograph. Could be someone else, after the trip to the hot springs, or when she was held in captivity in the cave. The chances are this photo was never meant to be found - it was for his/their enjoyment - but was left on the memory card, in the camera to be "found" after the reward was offered."
So, the witness who has testified to some people ánd to the authorities what the identities are of the people who kidnapped and killed Kris and Lisanne, is the ex girlfriend of one of them. This may seem far-fetched, but multiple people with inside information have testified of this and in the below video clip Betzaida Pitti talked about this female witness, residing in Costa Rica now for safety concerns. Pitti says in the clip from 2014 that we will hear more about this witness in due time, but of course she never came back on it. The information she was given was not exactly in the direction of Pitti's end course. No, this witness claimed that Henry and his mates, including Edwin A, Osman, Jose Manuel and the relative of the local restaurant took the girls, abused them and ultimately killed them. THIS is the source of the full video on my youtube channel, subtitles by me. [N.B.: I do wonder; if these girls were raped and tortured in a cave near a waterfall, or anywhere near mountain trails, then wouldn't this have drawn unwanted attention? Wouldn't people have heard screams? Is that a logical place to hide two missing women with a $30.000+ reward on their heads?]
Scarlet: so let me summarize the death count once more: Henry's group of friends consisted of Osman, Jose Manuel, Edwin A., Heriberto G., Jorge Rivera Miranda, 'Adonis' and the son of Il Pianista restaurant, among others. How did they fare?*Kris (21) and Lisanne (22) died under unknown circumstances.
*Osman Valenzuela (22) drowned under suspicious circumstances, only a few days after Kris and Lisanne disappeared. He had even helped 'search' for Kris and Lisanne on the day he went missing. He was threatened also and very afraid and nervous in the days leading up to his untimely death, his mother declared to the local papers. He was pictured in the swimming photo
*Leonardo Arturo Gonzalez Mastinu (34), the taxi driver: another unfortunate drowning in shallow water. He was investigated at the time for the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne.
*Efrain Manuel Rios Gonzalez “Adonis” (23 by now) got locked up in 2018 for the brutal rape and murder of a 50 year old woman in Boquete.
*Then there is Heriberto who is still alive as far as I know.
*But Edwin A. has been silent for some years now on social media. I don't know if he is missing or not, but some say that he is. This happened after the public spat he had with Heriberto (also covered in my part 2 blog post).
*Osman Valenzuela (22) drowned under suspicious circumstances, only a few days after Kris and Lisanne disappeared. He had even helped 'search' for Kris and Lisanne on the day he went missing. He was threatened also and very afraid and nervous in the days leading up to his untimely death, his mother declared to the local papers. He was pictured in the swimming photo
*Jose Manuel Murgas (21) was also in the swimming photo and he died in a hit and run, within a year after Kris and Lisanne went missing.
*Jorge Rivera Miranda (20), who was ALSO found drowned in a shallow puddle of water.. It has been claimed that his parents run a pharmacy in Boquete. Thé pharmacy apparently where Kris and Lisanne went to in the early morning of April 1st. Unfortunately, like with Romero supermarket, no CCTV footage was captured (or saved). *Leonardo Arturo Gonzalez Mastinu (34), the taxi driver: another unfortunate drowning in shallow water. He was investigated at the time for the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne.
*Efrain Manuel Rios Gonzalez “Adonis” (23 by now) got locked up in 2018 for the brutal rape and murder of a 50 year old woman in Boquete.
*Then there is Heriberto who is still alive as far as I know.
*But Edwin A. has been silent for some years now on social media. I don't know if he is missing or not, but some say that he is. This happened after the public spat he had with Heriberto (also covered in my part 2 blog post).
SO.. all in all a staggering death count within one year within this very young group of Boquete friends. Two young tourists dead, 'accidental' the public prosecutor claims; two young local men dead, one drowned, one killed in a hit and run; the taxi driver dead - again drowned under odd circumstances -. The other friend dead, also drowned in shallow water. The OTHER friend presumed missing. Adonis in jail for brutally anally raping a woman to death with a tree branch at the Caldera. You basically have Henry left and Heriberto. And there is the son of the Il Pianista restaurant, he is still alive too as far as I know. 3 alive, 6 dead, 1 in prison, all in their 20's with the exception of Leonardo aged 34. 'But there's nothing to see here people!', as Pitti would say. No wonder people got so brazen over there; they have nothing to fear from law enforcement, it seems. But what a list of 'cassualties'.. How can this not raise at least suspicions? Please read also part 5 of my blog series, in particular the comments from 'Ingles35', who has some more inside information about the Boquete situation.
MarkHaze wrote in January 2022
"This tour guide should be part of the X-Men. He has X-ray vision and he's able to spot a shoe "behind a tree trunk" in a dense jungle under heavy foliage. It just so happened to be the foot of a girl he was supposed to meet. Girls he was so concerned about he went to their house the day they didn't appear for the appointment he claimed to have with them. An appointment nobody else seemed to know about but him. As if he only admitted that incase the girls told other people. Also what a nice guy to show up at a client's house who doesn't appear for a tour? He didn't even consider the possibility they had a hangover or simply slept-in like thousands of tourists do. Instead he rushed over there as if he was protecting himself while his other accomplices held the girls hostage and staged Emergency calls at the same time to make it look like he wasn't a suspect. Obviously that didn't happen though because Panama declared it an accident and told the Parents to stay quiet about the night photos until after the investigation was over.So Panama says the girls fell off a monkey bridge and died by the river. Which makes perfect sense that they would be floating down a river all week while calling 911 or 112 every day at specific times. Never leaving a message because why would girls who write in their diaries every day want to leave a message for loved ones? Probably because it's too depressing and it wastes phone battery. Which is why 1 of the phones still had 22% battery left by the time remains were found. 22% battery left after the iPhone was turned on 10 days later for 64 minutes, and then shut off and placed back into the backpack, zipped up, and turned in by a tribe. So I guess a week later after floating down the river they reached the shore and climbed up an area where it looks very dry in the night photos, boulders around, trees, some mist which is probably from the river they just floated down. Then after they take 100 photos, they put the camera back in the bag, jump back into the river where they are killed. Then a few days later they wake up and turn on the iPhone for 64 minutes, then manually shut it off with 22% battery remaining.
Then eventually after going thru about a dozen blenders in the river, their bones are scattered everywhere but their backpack which they conveniently placed next to a river was in near-perfect condition including all the dry electronics working fine. While a foot gets tired of swimming and hops up a path and walks along a trail until it gets tired and rests behind a tree trunk, which is then later found by the super-powered Tour Guide F with X-Ray vision. There's just no way anyone in Panama would ever want to harm 2 girls hiking all alone in the jungle. What would men want with girls hiking alone in a jungle with no reception? Obviously all men treat women with respect and would never want anything from them. Especially 2 girls who are tourists and look completely out of place, like they were only there to help children and educate them and they were, as Lisanne wrote in her diary "Naive" in thinking they could handle it. At least this tour guide gave Kris Kremers' parents a tour. He took a few guys wearing hats who looked very awkward the entire time, smoking cigarettes, looking away from camera any time it pointed ot them. Then the tour guide even takes a photo of them at the end of the tour with his flash on in broad daylight. Which then made me immediately think of the night photos and the flash used. He was even smiling at them while taking the photo, after leading them in the direction he chose. I mean it's normal to take a photo of grieving parents of 1 of the girls you were supposed to meet and you found the other girl's foot behind a tree. He was just very helpful, even more helpful than investigators because he found all the evidence for them. It seemed like anytime they needed to find evidence, Tour Guide F was there to supply them with the evidence. I wouldn't think much about it if he didn't claim he definitely was supposed to meet the girls the following day, which is why he shows up at their residence as if it's some huge concern of his. He has nothing better to do? He didn't need to run his coffee farm? The 2 girls didn't show up so he immediately has to look all over town and report it? It's almost like he wanted everyone to know he was helping and cooperating.
I can see why Investigators never questioned him. I mean he does seem nice. Since killers are usually the people who appear like they are killers are always the killers, it couldn't possibly be him. It's not like I ever heard people say "He seemed like the nicest guy, I never would have believed he could do this" about any killers. They usually say "They looked guilty as soon as I met them" So this guy definitely seems too nice. Overly concerned and way too helpful with finding evidence in places you wouldn't believe if it was a movie. Go read his 5-star Trip Advisor reviews ;) it's all written by 1 person and dates back to 2013. I don't mean the one 1-star review that has a lady saying he joked about chopping off her leg. Without being sarcastic I don't even take that 1 seriously, I think the 5-Star reviews are much weirder. They talk about how it's best to contact Feliciano via Whatsapp. After the girls disappear they start to mention how "he knows a little bit of German and Dutch :) " with the smiley face included. Then they continue to talk about him knowing Dutch a few times while then saying he likes showing tourists "hidden trails" and meeting "indigenous people" and his amazing coffee farm. They say he has the best stories! None ever mention the missing girls or him sharing stories about that but just that he has amazing stories and enjoys leading tourists down hidden paths. It says you have to contact Feliciano via Whatsapp if you visit Panama because nobody wants to miss a tour with Feliciano. Why did the girls open Whatsapp while they were missing for a week instead of leaving a message? I think it's absolutely insane that the Tour Guide and the School didn't get investigated. I'm being sarcastic because it's so crazy to me. It's like not even bothering to investigate OJ Simpson after his wife and her friend was murdered. Whether he did it or not, he was still connected and had to be investigated. Tour Guide F knew way more than anyone else but they give him a pass? The diaries show these girls were positive about every thing even bad days they were positive about, then they get turned away from the School so rudely that they cried about it and wrote about it and go missing the next day? Nothing odd about that? Panama has the worst investigators on the planet if they really looked passed all of this. Either they knew what it was and didn't want to take it any further because they knew it would scare away tourists, or it was all their first day on the job and it was too confusing so they figured it was most likely they just fell off a monkey bridge and played with their phone all week while swimming thru the river until they could eventually take photos on dry land a week later. "An accident most likely caused by falling off a monkey bridge into the river". I think Tour Guide F most likely knows a lot more about what happened to these 2 girls. Maybe even exactly what happened. Nobody bothered to investigate though."
.png)
KaleidoscopeStrong51 wrote on November 23rd, 2021"I can’t speak for everybody else on here but for me the post by IP with all of the photos taken and their commentary just reinforces for me that foul play and a third party was involved. Kris’ parents walked the trail and said it was nearly impossible to get lost or deviate from the trail. Chris’ team said the trail is near impossible to get lost on and the photos confirm that. In other words there is no reason whatsoever for the two young women to climb over walls of vegetation tropical forest underbrush even if they could. It has now been proven that the trail past the Mirador moves to the North and away from Boquete and the scenery drastically changes. Hiking for hours and hours towards the cable bridges is highly unlikely, not to mention very foolish for two bright young ladies. Therefore I believe whatever happened to Kris and Lisanne was at the third stream or elsewhere. Even if one or both of them got injured on the trail or at the stream where they might have sat in the water, it would be impossible for them to be off the trail to the point where no one else could see or hear them. [..] I believe the photos prove very much! It proves that getting lost would be hard unless one really wanted to get lost which means randomly going off the trail into the dense jungle without a cutting tool like a machete which the two young ladies never had. Chris made it very clear that the only real location to go off trail is the split in the trail. And the only location where two hikers could possibly get injured is the location where Romain almost slipped because of the shift in his backpack but we know that’s impossible for Kris and Lisanne because they clearly made it to the Mirador and beyond. It’s also highly improbable that the two young ladies climbed up the incline passed river three because a) It would’ve been difficult for them because they weren’t wearing the proper footwear or equipment and b) They didn’t take any pictures of scenic locations after the incline. Now I will admit one could argue that they did indeed stop at River three they weren’t able to take a picture because the camera got wet and did manage to climb the incline and move on. But I reiterate they could have turned around at any time and just head back towards Boquete. The trail, even though it was linear, got progressively more difficult towards the cable bridges. The idea of the two young ladies improperly dressed with no hiking gear whatsoever on a tough trail with a low afternoon sun hiking for hours beyond river three borders on the absurd. The only logical location where they could have wandered off would be at the river three junction and they decided to hike down the river. For the girls to do that the chances are remote because Chris and Romain said that it is treacherous. The girls would have nothing to gain and considerable risk by doing that if it’s even possible. [..] I can’t say that I ever been lost on a trail where the topography forces you to practically be on the trail at all times unless you want to hop a fence and go trotting along in an open field. In fact I was really surprised to see the width of some of the sections of the Pianista trail because you’re practically literally forced to be on that small patch of trail. I will say that the imperfect plan article was an eye-opener for me. I admit I was going back-and-forth between the lost scenario versus the foul play scenario, but Chris’s article definitely cemented my feelings toward the matter. I’m very sad for what happened to those two young ladies and I hope their assailants/kidnappers are brought to justice."
FriendOfReality replied: "What we’ve seen to this point shows what previous videos have shown - getting lost, given the landmarks and terrain would have been very difficult until they got hours and hours past their destination."
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "The significant difference here is the Holendesas stayed missing. Even in nearby Costa Rica, none of the missing stayed missing."
UPDATE from Scarlet: the 'River Three' from Imperfect Plan is in fact the second river shown by Hans Kremers in the Answers for Kris video. So it isn't a different river which the Kremers missed somehow.
RapaNui found the wikiloc of a group of 3 (?) young people, who walked the Pianista all the way to the Paddock in 2020. There the group set up a tent to spend the night. Rapa: "It took the group members 43 minutes from their first photo after the Mirador to the 2eQ [second quebrada or small stream]. So it is estimated that it took them 75 minutes from Mirador to Paddock. That's pretty similar to the time it took K&L to reach 1eQ [1st quebrada, where they took photos 507 and 508]; 35 - 40 minutes. In total, this group walked for 3 hours and 20 minutes from the restaurant to the Paddock.They used the remaining time to pitch their tent and settle in the Paddock. Witness the time of the photo of the tent. And the path doesn't look dangerous anywhere in these photos either. No deadly or super-dangerous falls."
So this further solidifies that it would have taken Kris and Lisanne most likely an additional 30 to 40 minutes to reach the paddock (meadow), had they continued to walk after taking photo 508. It took Hans Kremers 45 minutes to reach the first big stream where the last photos were taken by the girls, and then he said that they walked for 20 minutes (so one hour and 5 minutes since the Mirador) to reach this point, aka 'river 3'. After that, it would have only taken them about 15 minutes from there on to reach the paddock. Of course, we have no further photos to prove that the girls themselves went beyond the point of photo 508. Despite the scenery inviting for photos to be taken there, none more were taken. And even if they did make it to the second big stream (or 'river 3' acc. to IP), they still had 2,5 hours before the first emergency call was made. Had they reached the meadow, there would still have been roughly 2 hours and 9 minutes left in between. One can hypothesize that Kris and Lisanne either encountered something problematic in between the two big streams/rivers, just beyond the location of photo 508. Or that they returned at that point (my own suspicion) and encountered something on the way back. There is no cell reception for at least two hours in either direction (going ahead or returning). I exclude the possibility however that Kris and Lisanne stayed at or near this 'river 3' for days on end, as it lies straight on the trail and sees multiple people, up to a dozen people on most days, pass by. Someone would have seen them there, and they would certainly have been found on the 3rd already as guide F. then, as he passed it and saw no signs of them. Of course, there will also be people who despite Imperfect Plan's latest findings, continue to believe that Kris and Lisanne were rather clueless and kept hiking the one and only trail, further and further north as it got closer to sunset. I believe the Kremers family in this however; they weren't stupid and would realize by the paddock that they had to turn around to go back to Boquete. I will add some of the photos the pair uploaded:
So this further solidifies that it would have taken Kris and Lisanne most likely an additional 30 to 40 minutes to reach the paddock (meadow), had they continued to walk after taking photo 508. It took Hans Kremers 45 minutes to reach the first big stream where the last photos were taken by the girls, and then he said that they walked for 20 minutes (so one hour and 5 minutes since the Mirador) to reach this point, aka 'river 3'. After that, it would have only taken them about 15 minutes from there on to reach the paddock. Of course, we have no further photos to prove that the girls themselves went beyond the point of photo 508. Despite the scenery inviting for photos to be taken there, none more were taken. And even if they did make it to the second big stream (or 'river 3' acc. to IP), they still had 2,5 hours before the first emergency call was made. Had they reached the meadow, there would still have been roughly 2 hours and 9 minutes left in between. One can hypothesize that Kris and Lisanne either encountered something problematic in between the two big streams/rivers, just beyond the location of photo 508. Or that they returned at that point (my own suspicion) and encountered something on the way back. There is no cell reception for at least two hours in either direction (going ahead or returning). I exclude the possibility however that Kris and Lisanne stayed at or near this 'river 3' for days on end, as it lies straight on the trail and sees multiple people, up to a dozen people on most days, pass by. Someone would have seen them there, and they would certainly have been found on the 3rd already as guide F. then, as he passed it and saw no signs of them. Of course, there will also be people who despite Imperfect Plan's latest findings, continue to believe that Kris and Lisanne were rather clueless and kept hiking the one and only trail, further and further north as it got closer to sunset. I believe the Kremers family in this however; they weren't stupid and would realize by the paddock that they had to turn around to go back to Boquete. I will add some of the photos the pair uploaded:
Prayucatchme hiked the Pianista trail and wrote on November 12th, 2021:"I am reading this group since 2019 I believe, when I initially wanted to go to Panama before covid started and my trip was cancelled. I probably read every theory and evidence over there already. I am currently in Boquete. Today I did hike to el Pianista trail with my partner and wanted to share my personal experience on what we encountered on the trail. We took a bus to start el Piansta trail and took off at Il Pianista restaurant at 10.05 am and started walking. We passed local people living on the way and started walking through the fields until we noticed 2 different paths and didn’t know which one to take. On the same stoney pathy we saw a big 4x4 truck with 2 creepy guys inside - no idea what they would be doing there with this car coming back from the forest. [..] They didn’t do anything to us, it’s just a feeling that we got when we saw them and they look at us. Not saying they wanted to do anything bad to us but we were not expecting 4x4 huge car coming out of nowhere - that was jus our gut feeling. [..] It was first junction where we noticed the car. They drove very slowly. We are in Panama for over 2 weeks now and seen local people/farmers. They looked a little bit suspicious - long hair, tattoos. Don’t get me wrong, it was just our initial feeling, doesn’t mean that they had bad intentions. You wouldn’t be able to get there unless it was a huge 4x4 truck similar they use to get to the volcano up here.
**We passed couple of streams on the way and when we reached approximately half way through we heard 2 large dogs barking and chasing us. They came out of NOWHERE. Those dogs were quite aggressive but finally stoped when we started shouting at them and finally turned back. We didn’t know what to think, it was super scary… We continued our hike. On the very top we saw 2 other people that hiked just before us. They said that they had similar situation with the dog, but dogs almost bit them [..] When you pass local houses there is lots of dogs, also in entire Panama - they are friendly. Those dogs on the trail where chasing us barking and SHOWING TEETH…
**There are absolutely no signs for el pianista trail whatsoever… We were a bit surprised that nobody cared to mark the trail, especially after what had happened there. We were prepared, we had maps.me app so we knew where to go luckily… If we didn’t have maps.me we would be a little bit confused. You don’t know which path to take, they look the same. We took a different one for a moment just to see where it leads but seems like fenced sites and probably houses of locals living there but after 7min we turned around. There is no arrows, no signs. There is only 2 options at the top, continue or go back so it’s not confusing at all. The trail is starting easy but then it’s turning into very narrow gorge. It’s also quite steep. Doesn’t seem like you can get lost really once you are on the trail - let’s say it’s not that easy to get lost. We came across 2 or 3 junctions where we didn’t know which way to take. Thanks to maps.me we knew where to go. Most of the time we didn’t have any signal, in 2 or 3 spots we had as well as at the very top. We saw the memorial of Kris and Lisanne, but no signs advising not to continue the hike. There is nothing there apart from the memorial. I was quite surprised after what I read in the internet and what I saw in Lost in the Wild episode. We went down and saw a snake also heard the dogs again and were scared that they will be chasing us again. It didn’t happen but when we were coming back we saw 2 houses and people living there approximately after 1h or 45min way down from the summit. We quickly headed back.
**I can tell you that we didn’t feel safe after the situation with those dogs and weird guys in the car. Not sure how much of it was subconscious because of the story with Kris and Lisanne we knew but this trail looks very gloomy and wouldn’t go there again, especially alone or after dark. Lots of different scenarios are playing in our heads right now. All I can tell you is I don’t believe that they just got lost in the jungle. I believe that they might have been running away from something or someone and that’s why they decided to try the other way thinking it might be longer to get back to Boquete but they will reach their destination without having to go back the same route.
**We didn’t feel like it was a fun hike at all… We did lost waterfalls and volcano before and it was fun. This place and it’s vibe - definitely not doing it anymore. We didn’t see any signs. Everything is rusty or washed away, if someone doesn’t know the story they could continue… I guess. I am not sure how to describe it, it’s just a feeling that they gave us. Go to this place yourself and you will understand the vibe and atmosphere there."
Been interested in reading the posts of a person named Ingles35Ingles35 wrote on August 5th, 2021: "The open secret is that everyone in Boquete knows who did it but is too scared to talk. The clue is all the people who have died and disappeared - Osman, José Murgas, the taxi driver and Edwin Aguirre. They have one person in common. I am not going to spell it out because other people who have worked it out for themselves have harassed this individual and put him on his guard. In any case, it appears he is being protected. One thing I will add is that no one in Latin America believes for one second that this is anything other than foul play. The losters are all gringos. [..] Without the co-operation of the families, we never will find out what really happened to the girls. A lot of people have a very good idea who the killer was (it's an open secret in Boquete) but without the release of the remaining evidence from the authorities and original photos from the families (including all the photos from Bocas del Toro), we are not going to be able to prove it. In Boquete it is widely known who killed them but people are very scared to say anything because they fear they too will be end up like Osman, José Murgas, Edwin Aguirre and the taxi driver, not to mention Lee Zeltzer. In Panamá snitches don't just get stitches!"
Ingles35 added: "There are two scenarios:
i) they met Osman and José Manuel Murgas and bathed in Caldera Hot Springs then something happened to the girls, probably by a third party known to the aforementioned boys.
ii) they met Osman and J M Murgas at the hot springs and had a good time with them, then the next day they meet up and go to the Pianista trail in a vehicle and travel along the Pianista - remember that Osman lived with his mum near or on the Pianista trail. They get out to take some photos and back in the truck. They carry on up the Pianista and are then captured. After that they are taken overland to Alto Quiel. After that you have to imagine what happened to them.
iii) same as ii but they are taken by vehicle down the Pianista and to Alto Quiel by road.
The thing is that Osman and J M Murgas knew what happened. I believe Edwin Aguirre also knew. Osman was killed only a few days later. You can't ask them because they are dead or missing, as is the taxi driver. Osman's mum said that he has been very worried on the days between the girls' disappearance and Osman's death. According to a post in Boquete Ning, it said that he had been found with his feet and head bashed in and drowned. Now, remember that Lisanne's foot had broken bones that were not consistent with a fall. Could Osman and Lisanne have been tortured and killed by the same guy? If one could offer Osman's mum total protection and a life in another country, far from any danger, I'm sure she would reveal what she knows and you would have your killer".
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "Alto Quiel is a neighborhood in the NW and uphill from the central Boquete area. They are called "barriadas". They are residential in nature with very few stores, usually only a mom and pop store. All the included barriadas are generally referred to as Boquete to outsiders. For example, the barriada of Alto Lino is where the girls started their hike".
And Ingles wrote also: "I wondered if they had met one or more of the boys in Boquete the day before and on the day of the disappearance one of these boys, now in a pick-up truck, saw them waiting for a taxi outside Casa Pedro. After they had walked part of the Lino trail. By all accounts, Lisanne was quite exhausted. Now, recognising one or more of the occupants of the truck the girls accepted the lift. Then the boys said they were just going to pick up their friend, Osman, who lived with his mum just up the road, near the Pianista trail. The girls then say "oh, we are thinking of going up there tomorrow". So, the boys say "We'll show you the beginning of it now and you can take some pictures. We'll take you there in the truck". This could be why there are pictures of the girls on the Pianista and in one picture there is what appears to be the reflection of a 4X4 pick-up in Kris's glasses. Then they pick up Osman, who suggests they all go swimming at the hot springs, possibly via a café in Boquete. Once at the springs, José Murgas and Osman are seen swimming with the girls. Edwin Aguirre is believed to have taken the photo with the flip phone. Because of the low quality, it is possible that it was subsequently bluetoothed to Osman's phone. Of course, this is pure conjecture, as we can't verify any of this, because Osman and José Murgas are both dead, and Edwin has disappeared. But it does fit with a lot of the witness statements - the girls being seen outside Casa Pedro, the pictures on the beginning of the Pianista, the picture with the boys at Caldera Hot Springs, the deaths of the boys, the red truck, the bras in the backpack (if they took them off to swim). It looks like they had a good time at the hot springs. The question is what happened to them there and who did it? Whoever it was he didn't want to leave any witnesses! The link between the Pianista and the Caldera hot springs is that Osman lived near the Pianista. The girls could have met Jose, Osman and Edwin and the taxi driver and what is so suspicious is that they are all dead or missing. Osman was killed only a few days after the girls' disappearance and his mum said he was agitated or preoccupied in the days leading up to his death. Whether the girls in the Caldera photograph are Kris and Lisanne we shall never know but it does seem likely given that all the witnesses to that photo are dead or missing. Sabrosón restaurant are a chain of eateries in several different locations, including one very near to the language school."Ok_Consideration9797 wrote: "To add to your point regarding the link between Caldera and Pianista, according to Google Maps, Rio Caldera flows southwards thru Boquete and into Rio Chiriqui Nuevo. Caldera Hot Springs and the Macanito Rocks (known site of the swim photo) are along the Rio Chiriqui Nuevo. Both are accessible by a minor road. The Boquete "Flower Market" photos of Sun 30 March 2014 showed Kris and Lisanne near Rio Caldera. Hypothetically, Jose and Osman could have guided them from Rio Caldera at Boquete to Caldera Hot Springs and the Macanito Rocks. Referencing to the swimming photo, on the left of Jose and Osmarn there is an overhead traffic bridge across the Rio Chiriqui Nuevo. The river bank below the bridge provides a space for the girls (regardless of their identities) to place their items. The Google Maps info is for 2021, but 7 years is not a very long time. The road and bridge are likely to have remained the same. Google "Macanito, Gualaca District, Panama" at Google Maps. Here is a much later video showing the Rio Caldera river flow.
Ingles35 replied: "I remember at the time everybody in the area thought it was foul play. There was an expat called Lee Zeltzer who started interviewing locals and gathered a lot of information. He died unexpectedly (at home, I believe) following a heart operation. Some say it was of natural causes and some say it wasn't. As time has passed and more and more people related to the case have died or disappeared, the evidence has mounted up against guide F.'s relative. Everyone is now too scared to talk, for fear of retribution. I am sure Osmán's mother knows the truth. I have a feeling that Adonis (the depraved s.o.b. who murdered Nurys Castrellón) knows, too. He's in prison now. He is/was a friend of Henry's. Maybe someone with connections in the gaol/jail could have a word with him? I believe Edwin Aguirre knows the truth, too, but he has disappeared now. The waiter Moisés Vega has a very good idea what happened, but he denies even his own identity, obviously scared out of his wits. Apart from those mentioned above, everyone else is dead! Even the dog Azul (Blue) is dead. - [And with regards to supposed low crime rate] Chiriquí Province is the second highest area for crime after Panamá City. If there are so few murders, how come there was a big demonstration about the number of women murdered there after Nurys Castrellón's funeral? What I am saying is that it is very likely that there was foul play, given the circumstances: the large number of people going missing and being killed in the area; demonstrations in Boquete alluding to the number of femicides (murders of women) in the area; the fact that so many people connected with the case are dead or missing; everyone is too scared to talk; there were estimated to be 70 gangs operating in the Boquete region at the time (there is no way of proving this, but it is likely to be true given the number of gangs operating in Panamá - see the link here. Remember this was 2016 and by then the estimate was only 30 gangs in the area - by then a big crackdown had already begun.
Here is another article that states that Chiriquí province (where Boquete is) is the third most crime-ridden province. By 2019 criminal activity seems to be gravitating more towards Chiriquí province according to this article. There is also this article which states that 24 people have gone missing in the area between 2009 and 2017 (that's just tourists - it doesn't include locals): "Between 2009 and 2017, over 24 other tourists have gone missing in this area or turned up dead. A revisiting of the case in 2017 brought up enough evidence to suggest these disappearances, including those of Froon and Kremers, may have links to a serial killer. Leaked law enforcement reports suggested someone dismembered the young women and scattered their remains deliberately, which might have happened to others as well. Previously, authorities said the river and scavengers scattered the remains, but the Chiriquí state judicial report indicated otherwise. The report said after an 18-month investigation, the evidence pointed to homicide. Pair this with abundant unanswered questions, such as why the two young women ended up so far from the main trail, and some will start thinking it was a slaying." If you want up-to-date stats from official sources, see here. - With regards to mafia or cartel activity in Caldera, I cannot remember where I read this but I believe it is the reason that prompted the Panamanian govt. to put an armed roadblock south of Boquete on the David road. Allegedly, American DEA agents have been seen there! Again, I am not in Panamá at the moment so I cannot verify this. I am trying to get confirmation from a local about this. It shouldn't be a surprise if Caldera and Boquete are on a cartel/mafia route, because it is a route through the country into Costa Rica, just as the Darién Gap is a route in from Colombia. Colombian were allegedly seen in Boquete when K & L disappeared (although, this is hearsay). With regards to sources, I mainly use Panamanian TV (especially Nex Noticias) and newspapers, plus Scarlet's excellent blog. In conclusion, if you want to carry on believing the area is not crime-ridden, carry on, but all the evidence shows otherwise. Does that mean there was foul play? No, but it does make that hypothesis very likely. Like many a detective, I am fairly sure I know who killed them but I can't prove it. A lot of people in Boquete know who killed them, too, but they are too scared to talk because they don't want to follow Osman, José Murgas and the taxi driver! They set off from Boquete which is in Chiriquí Province. We don't know where they went from there. They may have passed the Pianista summit (which does take them into Bocas del Toro Province) or not, but we have to assume that they went missing in Chiriquí Province."
Ingles35 also wrote: "My theory is that the previous day they went swimming with two boys they met in Boquete, José Murgas and Osmán Valenzuela. They had a good time. The next day they went on a short hike up the Lino trail, dropped off by the taxi driver who was later found dead. After 45 minutes, and with Lisanne completely exhausted, they return to the road. There they are seen by the owner of Casa Pedro. They are waiting for a taxi but are picked up one of the boys from the previous day and a guy they don't know. They take them into town and arrange to take them to do the Pianista trail later that day. They give them a lift up to the beginning of the trail where some pictures are taken. They continue up the trail in the vehicle, where they are then overpowered. I think they were transported in the vehicle as far as possible and then marched up the secret path (the one the tourists don't go on) to avoid meeting other people . Lisanne would have struggled tremendously because of her feeling unwell and because of her leg (the autopsy said she had bad shin splints). I think she could not walk well and one of the captors got mad with her and beat her severely, causing the breaks in her foot (just as Osmán would be beaten a few days later). I think the route avoided the mirador completely (and later these pictures were faked). I think they were held captive in a shack or a cave. I imagine they were moved closer to Alto Romero. They may have died there or even been sold to another gang, like a cartel or mafia organisation. What happened after that is anyone's guess. I stress this is just one possible scenario. After all these years, the only way we will find out is if someone confesses (unlikely), if someone is ratted out (unlikely, given the climate of fear up there), if the perpetrators do it again (and get caught this time) or if they try to kill another American girl and the FBI catches them."MarsupialFormer wrote: "I work with a wonderful man from Vulcan who emphatically states that there is a high likelihood that the girls would have seen people while lost in this jungle. He said that it would not be safe for two young woman to meet up with some of these people. I pray that one day someone will come forward if this is the case."
featherstonex wrote: "In a small community in which everyone knows everyone, it behooves people to keep their mouths shut. They know the score re: the forest and the characters that frequent it; they know more or less what befell the girls. Openly attaching one's name to allegations of foul play -- or worse, actually disclosing the facts relating to the girls' demise, if they know them -- would reliably lead to tangible consequences. This is true of small communities anywhere in the world. Even anonymous tips would cause local discord and reprisals. Hence the silence".
conary wrote: "I have read quite a bit about this case. At this point, I am truly in-between - maybe they simply got lost and perished, maybe there was third-party involvement. But I think if you went to Boquete and lived there for a while and made friends and talked to locals, you would get the overall sense that there was third party involvement. But of course nobody would openly say that, because it's bad publicity for the town, and people would probably be afraid of retaliation".marissatalksalot wrote: "[About not knowing everything] It didn’t have to play out that way: they could have met with foul play at ANY TIME from day 1–7or 11. If foul play occurred, no one had to plant ANY evidence. You said you refuse to believe somebody kidnapped them and within two hours attempted to throw the trail. It didn’t have to happen that way, and even I don’t believe it happened that way, but I do believe in a combination theory. I could say the same thing about a purely lost scenario that I thought sounded wacky and use it as my excuse for saying it was Foul Play only. I could use the lack of text messages or goodbye messages as irrefutable proof that they weren’t lost. But the problem there is I don’t know if there any text messages, just as you don’t know if all the calls were made by the girls because somebody was stalking through the forest trying to scare them for example. There is so many possibilities that ascribing to one version of events because “that would never happen!!” is just as wrong as ascribing yourself to the other side with the same excuse. I think this forum would make MUCH more sense if we all agreed that we have no idea what happened, and that there really is no “never could happen” when it comes to this case, because well - it did. Two women are gone and we have (very little) remains - all it proves is they are dead. Not how we got here unfortunately, and I don’t think we will ever know unless more of the skeletons are discovered or someone speaks. But foul play definitely isn’t a fantasy, maybe the one wild situation you described is- but there is definitely situations in which foul play can have occurred without it being some wacky TV show like you described.
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "But the problem there is I don’t know if there any text messages. I believe forensics found no unsent text message, or non emergency calls attempts (these are saved on the iPhone 4) This is VERY suspicious not happening on two phones over many days. I believe it is likely the April 1 emergency calls are legit. Unconnected emergency calls can be made by anybody without entering a passcode. Note: it is impossible to verify any of the calls found in the "recents" log. [Scarlet: Agreed. Nowhere in the case files or NFI report does it say anywhere that text messages were stored, started, attempted to be made or sent, or any other version you can think of with text messages. They were not there. The families and Dutch crime reporters involved all confirmed this].
I don’t know what it is about this case, but every time I close my eyes I see these girlsButterflyky wrote on August 6th 2021: "I don’t know what it is about this case, but every time I close my eyes I see these girls. I genuinely can’t stop thinking about what happened/what could have happened to them. In my head I believe it was just an accident, but something makes me want to keep digging and finding more information. I love watching crime documentaries and reading about strange stories like this one, but I usually never think about them again".
TheHonestErudite replied: "There is just enough information to form a multitude of compelling theories, but not enough to verify any conclusions. The evidence we have — from chilling night photographs, to phone logs — paints the vaguest of pictures, and causes the mind to wildly speculate. Ergo, we are left with a haunting, unrelenting mystery that confronts you with endless 'whys', 'what ifs' and 'if onlys'. Perhaps one day there will be answers, and some sense of peace and closure for the families. And for us, some conclusions to the thoughts that keep us up at night. This case doesn't let go; I wish I'd never heard about it.
fellspointpizzagirl replied: "This case sticks with me as well. I read about a lot of true crime and disappearances but for some reason I keep coming back to this one. I'll find myself thinking about what might have happened to them at the most random times. I think it has a lot to do with how it seems like there's a lot of clues and evidence while at the same time it also feels like we don't have much at all because we still wonder what happened to Lisanne and Kris. Having the photos also makes this case unique, and the night photos especially bring out a primal fear in some of us that make us really feel for what these girls went through. There are just so many what ifs."
xxhotandspicyxx replied: "I thought they simply got lost at first but tour guide F. caught my attention and I made a switch. The lost theory just leaves too much open ends for me, although I don’t disclose it. You can literally explain everything if there was foul play involved, lol. Although that does mean that the perpetrators are very professional in their job. For example the pictures and the phone usage, if that really were the perpetrators and not the girls, wow, excellent cover up".xxhotandspicyxx replied: "The only good thing about this case is that it’s the best unsolved mystery out there. Screw the dyatlov pass, screw the zodiac killer and Jack the Ripper, the Il Pianista disappearance wins hands down. There’s too many open ends to be fully convinced of one theory. And deep down inside we all know this will never get solved either. It either was just a tragic incident and we are gonna have to accept the bleached bones, photo 509, Take guide F. for granted, accept the fact that most likely Kris died first and Lisanne died a horrible lonely, slow death in the jungle OR it was foul play were certain key figures already got silenced and we will never hear from the people who in fact now more because this all happened in corrupt, drug/cartel riddled South America where talking with the authorities could mean you end up chopped up in plastic bags on someone’s doorstep. I just don’t believe we know everything that’s out there, wether that’s locals or simply that not all information was shared with the public because the parents didn’t want to. The truth deserves to be out there. The parents deserved a proper goodbye. R.I.P Kris and Lisanne."
tiredvibess replied: "I feel the same way. I heard about this case on a true crime podcast and couldn't get it out of my mind ever since. I've felt deeply affected by so many true crime cases but never anything like this. Every possibility about what happened scares me to my core and thinking about what these girls went through, regardless of what the full truth is, terrifies me in a way no other true crime case has ever done. I can't put my finger on why and I don't think there's one specific reason, but even if the case is someday solved conclusively I don't think I'll ever stop thinking about what these girls must have gone through."
Farfefe wrote: "There are tons of cases out there where people disappeared (and either later was found, or never found for that case) while venturing in forests, jungles, mountains etc. But for me, this case stands out for several reasons. I think the main reason for why I find this case so interesting, is that no matter if you go for the lost-theory, or the foul play-theory, there just is something that doesn’t add up. This is of course my subjectively opinion, but I almost find this case more interesting if I “accept” the lost theory as the fact. And that is because I find it so so weird they acted like they did; The non-sense photos, the LACK of photos in the days between photo 508 and the night photos, the time of the emergency calls, the lack of phone calls/text messages to relatives, the lack of any recorded messages, and so on. It’s almost as these things are more frightening and haunting if I go for the lost theory, even though I’m leaning more against that than foul play (by a small margin)."
Little-Steak-8656 replied: "Knowing so much about the girls, all their photos when they were having a good time at the start of their trip, the leaked diaries that's almost intimate and then knowing that horrible end of their trip, seeing the bones, the foot in the shoe, for me that is the real nightmare of this sad story. This massive difference of very happy pictures whilst you know what is going to happen. This case is so thrilling because there is so much material leaked to public."
Saparyati replied: "That's how I feel when I read the timeline as it happens of Kris' eldest brother on Facebook too. At first he's hopeful of how his sister and her friend will be found and asks everyone to help out in the search of finding them and over time it just changes into a total nightmare."
joaustin2010 wrote: "It is the thought of how terrifying it must have been to find themselves lost, especially at night. I wish I had a time machine and could go back to tell them to turn around. The lost theory scares me more than foul play to be honest. I am very bothered by the lack of attempts to send messages to loved ones. It just makes no sense. The girls used social media a lot and kept diaries. I find it impossible to understand why they did not try to send texts or make a film on the camera. That is the thing that strikes me the most. I appreciate that they would not want to consider their mortality but at the point when the night photos were taken after 8 days lost, surely you would use the camera to record a message. I know I would. Heartbreaking case."Waste-Win replied: "Me too. I was lost in a park for about 2-3 hours with a friend and her 2 cousins and we recorded a video asking for help already. I mean yeah we were 13 year old and we weren't in serious troubles but still it's weird. They had the camera and their phones were still functioning."
w0ndwerw0man replied: "For me the biggest gap is always the lack of any notes. Doesn’t have to be a farewell note, just something that they might type as a message they might try to sms through or anything. That’s the biggest anomaly for me."
Saparyati replied: "There are several factors going on for me:
*You can go either direction and there are supporting sides on each but never one to fully become one solid one.
*The fact they to our knowledge never left anything for relatives which strikes me as odd as Lisanne was reported to be super close to her family. Kris was close too but hasn't been reported to be as close.
*It's a close to home case. Both in location and age-factor."
*You can go either direction and there are supporting sides on each but never one to fully become one solid one.
*The fact they to our knowledge never left anything for relatives which strikes me as odd as Lisanne was reported to be super close to her family. Kris was close too but hasn't been reported to be as close.
*It's a close to home case. Both in location and age-factor."
Apprehensive-Cut2081 wrote: "The fact that they were young women has much to do with it: if they were old men no one would care as much. The fact that this could happen to anyone also makes it captivating (I'm sure the majority of us have hiked at one time or another). Also, their leaving so many photos gives us a feeling of closeness with the case and empathy with the girls. Even though I feel I have pretty good idea of what transpired there are still enough unknowns to make it intriguing. Sometimes I feel ashamed that other people's sticky ends are a source of, not necessarily entertainment, but something close to it. It's tragic this fate befell a couple of girls willing to do volunteer work on their holidays. At least they not in pain any more."
xxhotandspicyxx replied: "Yeah, I understand fully what you mean. [..] Other cases like the Dyatlov pass and the yuba county five are deemed as bigger mysteries but have been debunked and are simply not as captivating like this case at all, in my opinion at least. The pictures sure play a big part in the fact this case is hard to let go. Getting carried away in their excitement is easy because of the photo's. Knowing at least one of the girls was alive for a week in a jungle after the last picture is purely haunting. Going for an adventurous hike turned out to be a deadly nightmare for the girls. This could have easily not been such a mystery if Lisanne decided to take a photo of the already deceased Kris or spell out a message or whatever. But I guess she just didn't want to shock the parents with such a photo and/or was too much in survival mode not wanting to think about the idea of not making it out of the jungle alive. Maybe we get lucky and one day Netflix will decide to make a series out of this unsolved mystery. One can hope."
The difference of approach between those who think the girls met an accident vs foul playAnonymous_Forever wrote on July 22nd 2021: "Some thoughts. I can not understand at all why it is so difficult to understand that this case is most likely all about the big picture. Even if you do not think of the big picture, there are (very) many areas and factors of this case that most likely deserve at least as much attention as the night photos and the location of the night photos. From my point of view, many consider it (very) unlikely and (very) illogical that they were exposed to foul play. Personally, I consider it very unlikely and very illogical that they were not exposed to foul play. It can seem to me that at least many non-losters think of the big picture, while most losters do not think of the big picture. As I see it, this huge difference of approach in this case is probably one of the main reasons why there is a lot of unhealthy stuff happening in this subforum. [..] A lot of losters defend themselves against foul play scenarios and theories of non-losters which they find (very) unpleasant and in response to which they do not have sensible counter-arguments. Most losters can seem to put a lot of focus on the fact that they can not find logical explanations for why possible perpetrator/s made decisions that can seem (very) illogical to most people. I do not consider any of the possible decisions that the possible perpetrator/s made to be unthinkable at all and, nor illogical from their point of view. In order to know what was logical for the possible perpetrator/s, we depend on finding the correct story. As it is the connections between many various areas and factors of the case that I clearly find most important, it is rare that I find it interesting to discuss at a detailed level such "details" as the hair photo or the location of the night photos. I think there will be more people like me who think this.. Hopefully, this thread can lead to constructive discussion between those who think the big picture and those who do not."
Independent-Chard-61 replied: "At the time, I read that the young women got lost, out of stupidity. Then after years I learned that the trail actually doesn't end at the top, it continues through a narrow valley to a village. And that, moreover, around the path there are pastures with huts, farms, plantations and inhabitants. On this trail there is traffic. In this case, how can we get lost together (all alone would be likely) on this trail for ten days? How not to be spotted by researchers and residents? Even the corpses are [normally] spotted because of the vultures."
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "Appending emergency calls to the phone log is low tech and anybody can do it. Vultures are very common here and large. I have had them stomping on my roof. None were seen.
The searchers mentioned no presence of vultures. Also search dogs or people didn't smell decomposition. I have personally researched and tested my findings on my iPhone 4. I can duplicate Kris' recent log entries in minutes. The phone log is bizarre in its timing and content. I think that the April 1st calls are likely legit. Lastly, the found items stopped an expensive, fruitless and bad PR optics investigation. That is a fact! The presence of bar reception on April 2nd and 3rd puts the phone outside of a large part North of the mirador. There is a signal on the Mirador, but not where Kris' parents went by the last photo Kris took per Scarlet R. video. Kris' phone showed one bar on April 2nd and 3rd, so that phone was in an area of cell coverage. The phone was not in their possession for over two months, plenty of time to research. Constructing a recents log does not have to be done in real time. No unsent text messages were stored on phone. Hard to fake that in Dutch. Possible "handlers" involved directing activities." [Bubbly-Past7788 lives in Boquete]
Phanshy replied: "I don't want to repeat myself too much but I don't understand why people think if there was foul play involved, the perpetrator wouldn't make emergency calls or stage the night photos, murderers have done much stranger things to fabricate evidence and lay false trails".
Ok-and89 replied: "Not logical to allow them to have the phones and then place them in the backpack to be found. They could leave messages, notes, recordings, pictures explaining what happened to them. Showing where they are and who abducted them. Also a miracle can happen and get signal for a moment. Why take any chances. So they had to simulate the calls. I think is too elaborate and strategic. Unlikely for this type of criminal."
Phanshy replied: "I don't think they [Kris and Lisanne] had the phones past the first day, if you lived in an area that never got reception I think you would be confident that you wouldn't get through."
Nickthepainter replied: "Good post. I agree and it does get testing at times to see the gazillionth hair photo analysis, or the thousandth sketch of a fictitious riverbed where these night photos are doctored into. It is navel staring indeed. People who think these two women got lost, in my view they focus on a handful of pet projects. Night photos, nightphoto location suggestions, maps, potential side trails nobody knows about. Stuff like that. Then you have crimers, for lack of a better word. They often like to look at crime numbers, the state of the backpack, illogical use of the phones, lack of goodbye messages and pseudo-psychology. Indeed there is a whole lot of play involved where one person says he found no evidence that Kris and Lisanne got lost, and another person says he found no evidence that they got murdered. Both are true to some extend. And thus we're stuck."
ten_before_six replied: "I mean, the only true big picture is that two women went on a hike and were never seen alive again, without evidence that definitively explains what happened to them. Humans are often terrible at interpreting motive of other humans. So answering questions of why anyone behaved in a particular way (either a perpetrator or the women themselves) are dicey. I could make up a million lost scenarios and a million foul play scenarios and force the data to support almost any of them. So realistically, we're left with "how do humans usually behave in these situations?" In this case, 1. How do people who are lost in the wilderness generally behave and 2. How do people who commit violent crimes against other people generally behave. And yes, every person is different and generalizations are just that - generalizations. But it's really all we have. People who are lost often act in ways that are "irrational" in that they end up going against self preservation, but not "irrational" in the sense they don't act totally randomly. People who are lost in the wilderness generally behave in relatively predictable patterns, so much so that there are whole books written about how lost people behave meant to help guide search and rescue teams. On the other hand, people who commit crimes they don't want to be caught for, are not generally going to go out of their way to do things that draw attention to a crime (unless they are trying to frame someone else for it). So for me, it comes down to probabilities. It's more likely to me that two women acted like lost people generally act, than that a perpetrator or perpetrators took the time to elaborately fake evidence when the environment was such that it would be so easy for any evidence to just disappear forever. Not needing to understand the motivations for every detail of the women's choices, such as why no pictures for a week, I don't think means that someone isn't seeing a big picture, just acknowledging that within a larger framework of "lost people behavior", the details of specific decisions isn't what makes or breaks that. I mean, maybe someone killed them and faked it all. I don't know. It just seems the less likely scenario for me when you step back and look at the big picture of human behavior as a whole."cpo0 replied: "The facts of the case are that 2 girls went on a trail they didn't know, continued on once the actual trail had ended, tried to reach emergency services but were unable and eventually died in the forest. Those are the FACTS that we have".
Nickthepainter replied: "And there is already goes wrong. Corrections: We assume that it was "them trying to reach emergency services". There is no hard evidence for this, even though it seems to most logical version of events. We also do not know if they "died in the forest". They could have died somewhere else and some bones were planted in the forest. There are also other facts. Bones of Kris bleached compared to those of Lisanne. For crimers that is an important detail while others ignore it. Also a fact; there were no goodbye messages. Families confirmed this. That is odd according to many people. There were no or incorrect pin codes entered inot Kris her phone after 5 days. That is also peculiar. And a fact. Bag was found but 90% of the bodies were not. Also not matching up with simply getting lost and dying on site. You see? We cannot even agree with each other what the basic case facts are."
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "Died in the forest" is not a fact! Time, place, and manner of death are unknown."
Internal_Squirrel_93 wrote: "I think it can be both those who believe in the theory that they got lost and those who believe that they were attacked by perpetrators who see small details, and in that way get the whole picture. It is important to look at the small but also the big to get the whole picture. Past events of people who got lost and how they behaved. Men's violence against women, Great macro perspective. But also look at the individual level. How the girls used to interact with others and how they behaved and felt in calm and stressful situations. This way, by adding more variables related to gender, age, psychological, social psychological, socio-economic and cultural aspects, we form a presumed event of what we know."
leninamia replied: "I prefer to stay neutral on the lost or foul play issue. I believe a lot of us on this sub think that way. It could be anything really, until the truth is found. BTW If I were a local with suspicious information, I’d sure keep my mouth shut or it would be me drowned in a shallow pound next time."
w0ndwerw0man wrote: "There was someone local here a few months back who posted a few comments saying all the locals know who did it and that it was the guides son and it’s been covered up. I have tried looking for the comments for hours, going back through posts, but can’t find them frustratingly."
irainny"wrote: "To be honest this is exactly what I think. I even think the police knows who did it but the thing is they don’t like bad publicity and getting tourist scare of traveling to panama. And if they say ohh this was a murder the news will be very bad publicity. But the reality is around those areas there is a lot of crime without any justice. There was a murder case of Catherine Johannet was resolve very quickly because she was the daughter of a North American and his mom pressure everybody and make a big deal of it. So Panama really doesn’t like bad press who know if the person they arrest if the person who really murder that girl. Meanwhile there are a bunch of rapes that they don’t even look that have occurs on that area and keep happening now days."
xxhotandspicyxx wrote: "Yeah, they know but are afraid to speak out or they will end up like the cab driver. Can any loster also tell me why F spent 30 minutes in their room? I couldn’t think of any legitimate reason why he should have if I were to think no foul play was involved."
anonymous__forever also wrote on July 18th, 2021: "Not one, but two. It can seem to me that many people forget that they were two of them and not one. For example, I have seen several people who compare this case with cases where one person has disappeared. I think such comparisons are (very) likely to be incorrect and/or irrelevant. In my opinion, if there are two and not one that disappear, there are a large number of scenarios that become much less likely. If it was an accident and both fell at the same time, there are at most (very) few alternatives that are at least reasonably conceivable. Perhaps the only alternative I consider that does not appear to me illogical and unlikely is that they fell from one of the monkey bridges. And then they would likely have been seen or heard by passers-by. Without knowing what it looks like under the bridges, I would assume that if they had the opportunity, they could have moved away from there. So I consider it (very) unlikely that they fell from one of the bridges. I have difficulty finding other places/scenarios than the monkey bridges that I consider reasonably conceivable that both could fall from at the same time, but there can be alternatives I have not thought of or I have considered wrong."Ok-and89 replied: "It's hard to explain why they didn't leave a text or video for the families. I can only imagine they were in a very bad state after the accident (or attack). Maybe only one of them managed to make the calls and the other was able to provide the code. It would be informative to know what can you expect from someone after surviving a serious accident/fall with concussion and multiple life-threatening fractures. Maybe the time of the calls corresponds to the few moments one of them regain consciousness and gather enough strength to dial. I think they were both in a very bad condition from the first minute of the ordeal. Some theories assume the two were lost, walking around the cloud forest for several days, crossing the monkey bridge. It does not look likely. There would be pictures of the monkey bridge and the culebra river. They would have met people or be able to spot farms. They would have left messages. The 508 stream could also be explored by a local rescue team that surely has the experience and gear to safely retrace their steps under this scenario. They could create a GoFundMe to finance the trek."
VirtualPAH replied: "Yes, strange why in the first 24 hours they only tried calling a couple of times and only to the Dutch emergency service and no other number, and after that only at similar times of the day. They could have made a text to those nearby (presume they had numbers for where they were staying, the school and anyone else they'd been with beforehand they wanted to keep in touch with) and family so it would send when signal coverage was found, that they kept checking for day after day. The only proof of injury is Lisanne's broken metatarsal. It may have happened on day one. Surely forensics exists to say whether it was healing at all, how long it had healed for, or if it had happened post death, or if worsened through movement if trying to move about on it for days so fragments break off the breaks or whatever can happen if not allowed to rest and heal. Other forensics should be possible, such as what type of sand (if it was sand and not dirt) was found in the backpack, from the trail, a beach, or elsewhere? Were any of the items covered in it so more likely from the backpack's journed to where it was found. It could have dried out while sat waiting to be discovered so that is easily discounted, presuming it wasn't raining constantly in the hours/days before discovery so it had time to dry. Lots of supposedly easy to resolve things either not done or haven't been made public. [..] I think the only big thing that is still pointing to foul play is the vast difference in state of the bones, suggesting Lisanne lived a long time after Kris not mere days, but maybe that too is explainable from a rational point of view. Maybe she was rescued and they took Kris' body with them but it wasn't a proper rescue, like what I think happened to a German woman in the same region before or after this incident where she was abducted by a rescuer. What an awful situation, hell after hell. [..] I did wonder if the search helicopter had thermal imaging available to them so they could try to see heat spots between the forest canopy. If the SOS photo is genuine then it shows they were in that position awaiting discovery for some time, so if a helicopter had gone overhead around the 8th they had a good chance of being spotted."
callmymichellephone replied: "I appreciate you reposted this as a theory. I agree, it’s really not worth comparing to disappearance cases of a single person. And that is done quite often, this is a good point. My question to you is, is it possible only one person got hurt, such as a twisted ankle or broken leg, and the other just could not morally leave them? Perhaps the injured begged the non-injured person to stay? If I had a broken leg and my best friend said they were leaving for help, I’d be terrified. I would not want us to split up. Perhaps they did just split up for day hikes in different directions? And after getting once, learned their lesson and used twigs or something to mark their way back. So each night they ended up back wherever the injured person was left behind. Nonetheless I agree, I can’t think of many occurrences where both would be injured, because usually people hike in single file, so if one fell the other would stop. The bridge makes sense, but you’d think there’d be evidence of a fall from the bridge, some blood below or hair or something."
It's like going into a maze and then getting to a T-junction right at the start
Jackie12 wrote on June 20th, 2021: [Translated from Dutch] "What strikes me and disturbs me is that some people assume that the girls (or one of them) lived for another 11 days. This whole theory is based on only 2 things:
1- because the phone was activated for a short while after 11 days.
2- because all sorts of unclear photos were taken after one week, which do not show anybody clearly and of which we still don't know where exactly they were taken.
It is solely due to these two things that people assume that they get lost with a fatal outcome. Calls were attempted to be made and photos were taken, so the girls MUST have been the ones to do so. And this is the crux for me. Because holding on to this theory raises so many questions.
- why didn't they call/text/app home
- why didn't they write a (farewell) message
- why was their bag found undamaged
- why were they not found during the first 10 days
-why couldn't they get out of this supposed riverbed? Must we believe they both accidentally slipped?
- why did their phone make contact with a cell tower?
- why have so few of their remains been found?
- why was photo 509 deleted?
- etc etc etc
It's like going into a maze and then getting to a T-junction right at the start. Are you going right or left? To the right is the exit that losters have chosen. Into the Lost Theory. And the further they walk on, the fewer questions they can answer. But they just keep walking on and on, so as to not step away from their main theory. They twist and turn and come up with the most fantastic and unbelievable answers in order not to have to return to the beginning of the first T-junction. But I do, and I turn left. The girls went for a walk. They have been murdered. Calls were made afterwards (I've already posted a dozen times how simple that is to do). Night photos were taken to put people on the wrong track and astray and to make you believe they were still alive. The backpack has been planted there and photo 509 has been erased. Girls didn't call/app home or leave a message because they were no longer alive. So few remains have been found, because they were also planted by the man I still suspect to be the perpetrator. 1+1 = 2. Even back in 2014. I totally agree with Dick S.: the entire investigation has to be done all over, from A to Z."
Ophelia wrote me on May 31st, 2021: "The girls must have been tied. In order to be immobilised. I don't think JUST drugging them would make any perp happy in terms of restraint. The forensic countermeasure of keeping their items with them is smart, But a perp faking a lost incident in *our opinion* would be far less cryptic/mystical with the photos. Probably more like...blurred while running, on the cable bridge, etc. A perp proving they were lost would....take photos thinking of what WE THINK lost photos look like. Which these are clearly...not. If the girls' hands were tied behind them....the incorrect PINS...the strange call/phone behaviour....and the Night Photos...all fit with physical restraint. And a backpack close by where smart, savvy girls would know to TRY to use their devices and would be TRYING to convey something. Perhaps trying to show us 'look we were here'
A note a fellow former RCMP officer made (who has worked large scale operations) is that the twigs/sticks immediately looked like stick figures and he thought out loud: "I wonder if they were showing us their positions in this place due to not being ABLE to point [the camera] at themselves. A "this is me. And this is where the other girl is. I hope you guys get it" tip from them. We also discussed the backpack. A perp with a 'Lost And Wanting to Prove it' aim, usually scatters the items across a large area all at once. Making it harder to connect the items. The backpack, the GIRLS would want it to be found. And perhaps it was placed somewhere specifically with that "this is all we can do to tell anyone what happened" and then it was found. To not scatter evidence after killing them would be highly abnormal, as you commented. As well as not destroying the evidence. This would show....a remorseful Perp. A sorry perp. A perp who definitely wouldn't have faked further therefore... - That's our opinion. Just wanted to share that restraint of the hands/feet is what the photos and phone use show us. It is possible that they could get the camera out and could use it limitedly. We all think the camera may have been used statically... So when they got it in their [tied] hands, they used the heck out of it. And wisely not by placing the camera against a rock. But they seem to want to convey *something*. And against any Perp wishes to destroy/scatter evidence after a kill...the Night pictures have actually drawn MORE attention to the case." "A perp would also like to see the phones smashed up, because it seemingly fits the lost/accident story. It would be likely for a Perp to try to enforce this even more than the 112/911 call attempts. But overall it screams foul play from the hilltops." 
Ophelia also stated that "A Psychological Analysis of the photos may also help with image 507 and 508....as Kris does seem strained and the distance has increased between them. A Perp with two girls is risking a LOT MORE than with just one. And to be able to gain control rapidly....it would be better to be threatening their friend and forcing them to move on. It seems like they are being driven in these photos and perhaps Lisanne was able to snap a photo still (like was done in the Delphi Case) without a flash or without raising attention during that day." Ophelia also wrote that when two people are lost, they show different behaviour usually than one single person. When one gets lost in nature, "their behaviour is more circling and panicky, more apt to be induced to a MORE lost state. Their messages are less hopeful. Their desperation is less moment-to-moment and more thoughtful to family and messages". When two humans are lost, together, they more often "stay put. Or coordinate". Ophelia also highlighted an interesting topic which I have never read about yet before: in case of a foul play situation, there is also a psychological effect to be expected of the fact that the two young women were held against their will, together. "It is better to rely on each other in a captor scenerio than to think of the outside world....but this can also go on in several ways:1) one captive becomes more mentally unstable, less "sane". This captive becomes a liability for a Perp.
2) the captives are pitted against each other and may be able to play along or really be divided
3) one turns on the other, Stockholm syndrome style. This is either in a passive or aggressive manner, depending on the trauma and mental disassociation endured.
Two Girls. They may act completely different in all these scenerios than what we think of. Perps though, they are usually an MO (Someone who repeats themselves or won't let something go) or signature killing type. We have many many subsets, but almost none of them would want those night photos to be seen by the world". "The parents' estrangement is not surprising either. Even divorces occur when a child is lost. It's very easy to blame someone else's child for what happened to yours. And vice versa."
OkSympathy9074 wrote out a 'most likely' theory, which links to my own main suspicions in this case
May 24th, 2021: "My theory - I live in Costa Rica and I'm always talking to people from Panama. Some of them think they were killed by cannibal indians. Some people think they were killed by human traffic. I think the girls were on the trail and, when they were there, some people attacked them. They need to hide, to run. But they found them and killed them in the first or second day. Maybe it happened in another place. The bras could be in the backpack because they were swimming. And they are the girls with Osman in that picture in the Caldera. Osman died three days after the girls were missing. The taxi driver died. The other boy of the picture died. You know, it's not a coincidence. People in Boquete say Guide F was trying to protect his son. The girl who used to work in the school probably saw something in his ranch in Alto Chiquero. Feliciano said they were on the trail to handle the situation. And there is not a trace of the girls in the jungle. People from the Sinaproc walked in the region where the bones were found. They walked from Bocas until Boquete many times. They were looking for the girls close the monkey bridges. They were not there. They were in another place. I think the girls were killed by members of the gang. And they were not on the trail. Even Guide F said in some interviews the girls were not there.
It's simple. A man died here in the sierra de Talamanca. They found his remains after two years. 90% of the body. Even if this river is wild, why the bones of the girls could not be found? Why the boot was almost under a tree? That backpack was staged! The guide F changed the version many times. He is the father of a member of the gang. Nobody in Panama understands why he was so involved. He was involved in every step. It was like damage control. His son was drunk and talking about the girls that week. And the people of Boquete were really afraid of the gang. The case looks like a big mistery. But it's simple. Those bones were there only to close the case. Panama found the bones. It was the chance of the country to investigate. They finally found the girls. But they didn't. They gave some bones to the families and that's it. We need to understand that this chronology that we know about the case, was made through the words of other people: Guide F, school employee, witnesses... [..]
I don't think Guide F is the killer, but he knows who killed the girls and was covering the back of the person who killed them. I think Guide P. was there. I don't think he is the killer, but he saw the girls while they were at the Mirador and probably saw the people who were there. The taxi driver said he saw two boys in that area. Many people died. It's witness elimination. The people who could talk about it... They are dead. And the people who killed the girls, probably they are alive. I think it was the police of the country who deleted the picture 509. It's the link. It's the proof the girls were not on the trail anymore and were in another place. Probably, the girls who were in that swimming picture... are Lisanne and Kris. That girl who used to work at the school, she left really quickly... Because she knew something and was afraid. And the police never investigated the fincas of Alto Romero, they never investigated houses, using luminol... nothing. And we are here discussing it after 7 years because Panama protected the killers to save its tourism industry. Probably it was a sexual attack. The girls only called the emergency service twice, probably because they were running and trying to find a safe place, they were moving. If you make a call or try to touch in your cell phone, in the darkness of the forest, somebody will find you. It's completely dark. You can see a point of light very quickly. The girls were always trying to call by the day. They never made calls in the night. They were a target and they were moving. On the bones: they dissolved the girls' bodies. These bones are more resistant. That was what was left. [..] There may be more information that got lost, people who know more and do not speak. I live in Costa Rica. I know some Panamanians. They say the same thing: there is a silence about the case in Boquete. Nobody talks much about it, because everyone knows each other. It can be dangerous."
Realistic_Ad_6403 chimed in and agreed: "Why were they attacked? They were possibly targeted simply because they were two young, pretty girls who were hiking alone. These types of attacks happen quite often in public parks, let alone a Panamanian forest. Why kill Osman, the cab driver, etc.? To tie up loose ends, or it’s even possible that the deaths of these individuals aren’t even related and are mere coincidence. Why leave bones instead of nothing at all? I know this is an unrelated case, but think of the BTK killer Dennis Rader. He began to taunt the police by sending them cryptic letters, which eventually did lead to his arrest. I cite this instance because it kind of matches up here. Some killers are known to keep souvenirs of people they murdered, while getting rid of the rest. They could have dumped the bones in a random spot, not even caring whether or not they would be found, or to simply toy with the world."
Wooden-Dinner-3600 replied: "You urgently need to stop communicating with people from Panama. While you are passionate about this business."
Temporary-Junket-756 replied: "This theory seems the most solid.. if I was to believe in them just getting lost and that there's nothing more to it, it requires so many questionable things to be ignored. Too many things."
"I live in Canada, but have a good friend from Volcan, Panama who is living and working here. Volcan is very near (just west) where this case took place. I asked him point blank tonight what he thinks happened. Without hesitation, he said, "They were killed." His brother is a guide there and does daily tours to the volcano. He was unaware of the internet interest in the case and suprised that I knew so much about it and his area of Panama, as a result. He mentioned that the jungle paths are not safe, with alot of unsavory, opportunistic types that one can run into. It doesn't answer alot of nagging questions, but it shows how a strong man who grew up in that jungle region and knew the area and culture intimately, would not want to be lost on those trails overnight. Perhaps it was lost in translation, but he mentioned the risk of running into criminals that are 'hiding.' The Canelo v Saunders fight came on and we broke away from the conversation'. (source).
Geruisloos wrote on a Dutch forum on May 9th, 2021 (translated): "Some years ago I went to Boquete and I hiked the Pianista trail, until the Mirador. Even though I have been active on this forum at the time, I did not go there because of this case. I passed Boquete while traveling the central Americas. I hiked the trail from the Il Pianista restaurant until the Mirador in one hour and 45 minutes. I took a lot of photos and was recovering from an ankle injury, so normally I would have ascended the trail in an even better time. This is what I noticed. As soon as you reach the jungle, the trail becomes humid, wild and at times worn away. Large parts of the trail no longer catch direct sunlight by then. Wild growing vegetation and some fallen trees made the trail more difficult to follow. Another Dutch tourist I spoke with in Boquete had turned around for that same reason. It is not the nicest trail to take (at the time). Not really dangerous but not entirely innocent either. You do feel that you walk through the jungle, as opposed to a forest track. You do not even think about going off trail. Along the trail you pass a lot of sheds and finca's. At the last (and most remote) finca I saw, about 45 minutes from the Il Pianista restaurant, I was even attacked by an aggressive dog. At the Mirador there was a sign by now - the author went to Boquete several years after Kris and Lisanne went missing -, saying "Fin del Sendero, No Pase, Retornar" (End of trail, No access, Turn around). Other than that, you do not really have the impression that you reached the end of a trail because you can just as easily continue to follow this path. [..] Geruisloos adds in another post that at 23:10 in the video of Kris' parents, hans calculates where Kris could have been approxemately if she had turned around after taking photo 508, and exactly at this spot, geruisloos was attacked by a dog he writes. When he walked up, the dog came running toward him at high speed, jumped over or through the fence onto the trail. And when he walked back down later, the dog attacked him again, this time from behind. Geruisloos could jump away but was left with scratches. Not just the creepy dog, but that entire stretch of the trail spooked Geruisloos and did not feel safe. (Perhaps there is a correlation).
On the way back, I passed two indigenous people who were heavy packed and who carried machetes. I greeted them friendly but got no reply. This did not make for a comfortable atmosphere, considering they were the first people in saw in two hours and I was still on the trail. Very unusual also that people in these remote places do not greet you in return. I quickly walked on. My opinion about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne has changed a bit after my own hiking experience there. I always deemed an accident most logical. But now that I have seen Boquete for myself and tasted the mood, both in town and on the trail, I now think that the influence of a 3rd party will have played a role in their disappearance. [..] Boquete is not very cozy and some buildings and houses are pretty dilapidated. There are quite a few American pensionados with their own little trade and sports cafes and there are a lot of national tourists and people visiting the place for the day. And on top of that there are backpackers, of course. So it is busy, but it does not have that relaxed chilled out holiday vibe. There are beautiful places too and I met also friendly people, but in my impression it was not an idyllic mountain village where nothing ever happens. There are some beautiful houses, but as said, also a lot of shabby and abandoned houses, primitive and surrounded by barbed wire. I will add some photos of the place". (Source link to both the testimonial and the photos of Geruisloos)
Acid-Moonraker72 wrote on May 5th 2021"Regardless of who the kidnapper (murderer) was, in the end the case must obtain a status acceptable to all parties. I emphasize everywhere to dismiss the narrative from the camera and phones as toxic. If you look at it without the photo history and phone information, but focus on the results and history, quality, condition of the found remains in the context of the future life interests of all parties - you will understand. These are not the first victims and, unfortunately, not the last. Young beautiful women are disappearing, dying in Europe, America, Africa, Asia, and let's throw in Australia for order. With sadness and despair, powerlessness, life goes on and the power structures must ensure a certain quality of life for the next days of societies and public opinion. Government authorities is not only about smiles and declarations. It is also the acceptance of evil - pro publico bono. Therefore it makes no sense to wonder if the thug was intelligent and had a digital analysis center. The final picture we are to get as a society hardly ever has any real features. And that I would be well understood - I am not accusing the authorities or the police of forgeries in order to protect a bandit. I am writing about the fact that the authorities manage the state of society, including the public opinion, whether we like it or not. Perhaps the perpetrators have already been "punished" and life must go on. The remains and "evidence of the accident" are essential to close the investigation and get everything back to "normal". With time, the matter will quiet down and only sometimes someone mentions something. Look how many people (single women) have been on this trail since 2014. This is Panama's success. Until next time. So the best evidence on the matter you are asking about is the future and the peaceful sleep of society. Otherwise it would be much worse because it would mean that we are ruled by total fools." (source)
Marissatalksalot wrote: "I don’t think they kept the items [backpack and content] to stage an accident at all. I think the items only came in to play when the reward came into play. It would make no sense to keep the items to stage an accident. Some killers/criminals will keep trophies of their victims, some keep the items because they are afraid of them being found elsewhere, others keep the items until it’s safe to dispose of them. The criminals could’ve had the items for any of those reasons. The only reason they ever came to light was because of the reward in my opinion, if you are following this specific theory. [..] There could be 1 million reasons that a criminal would allow their victims to keep their cell phone/items. That comes down to a criminals mindset and behavior. You cannot make claims based on that behavior unless you have the [actual] person to study. The statement, “if it was foul play there is no way they were allowed to keep their phones”, simply is not true. Maybe you, as a criminal wouldn’t allow someone to keep their phone, that doesn’t mean that another criminal would have the same behavior/reasons/justifications. Furthermore, there’s reasons beyond no cellphone service for allowing it. There’s a theory I heard recently that someone was helping them and decided to assault them after trying to help them. Maybe trying to resist urges, etc. there’s plenty of reason they would have their cell phones. That’s if it was them on their cell phones. We know nothing."
Neverbeentooclever replied: "The original reward was a few thousand (not chump change in Panama) but it garnered nothing. I believe the 30K was bumped in May. The bag wasn't found until a few weeks later."Allthingskerri replied: "My theory is they were never really far from their bags. So in the morning or afternoon when there was a small chance to check signal/time try to make a call, they did. I think somehow they were hurt (the original emergency calls), accepted help that they normally wouldn't, but it was the wrong person or people for help. Once the girls had their strength back they made a run for it - night photos and signal. And then they either fell to the circumstances of the jungle or they were found again."
Leeeeeeeeeeuk replied: "Agree. I think it was a mix of them not being really prepared for the hike, a deviation from the path and an accident. Then the wrong people came upon them. Either to have some "fun" or for more devious reasons. As the scale of the search got bigger and more intense, that put a rushed/bigger/reward plan in motion. I truly believe bigger players got involved, thus the deaths of many after in strange circumstances and a cover up of sorts by govt."
Demystifyinger replied: "I think someone followed them or ran into them sometime around the last daytime photos. The girls are persuaded/forced to come with them and make the 112 calls along the way. The guys take them to a secluded area (the cabin?) over night. The girls have no time to make second calls cause they're being watched. The guys didn't plan this in advance and their intention wasn't to kill them so they don't take their phones. Murder wasn't on their mind until after they realize they have to keep the girls shut. Maybe the guys can't come to an agreement about what to do with them so they take some days until they decide they have to get rid of them. They throw them away somewhere far into the jungle together with their belongings."
Acid-Moonraker72 replied: "Imagine you are the King. Your kingdom is mostly relying on tourism, and all your kingdom's income is generated by tourists. And here is such a tragedy taking place in this kingdom. You are determined and you want to help, you do a lot, believing that it is an accident and that you are about to save two missing people. You know that only then will you [achieve to] save everything, including the business [attractiveness] of your kingdom. Unfortunately - it turns out that this is not an accident, but a terrible planned murder. Absolute evil. You find terrible evidence that evil has been living hidden in your kingdom. What are you doing?? An open trial dragged out over the years by successive lawyers, psychiatrists, psychologists, the media, defenders of any rights, or the influential background of the perpetrators? Do you expose the good of the kingdom, many secrets, subjects, and the families of the victims to a long-term trial? Do you do your best to mitigate the consequences in the face of a great tragedy? You create a fairy tale that must give everyone a chance to experience this nightmare and forget it, you feed alligators to the perpetrators and you give a mountain of bitcoins to your family, you do a lot to prevent such tragedies from happening, although you know that it is only a matter of time and place.
On the other hand, we, ordinary little people, will build our alternative worlds on such discussions. Why? Because we have to experience it in our minds. We have to learn to live with it. Because we disagree with this terrible choice that our king was faced with. Because we want to believe that we are always safe and that someone protects us. Because we want to play even the smallest role to help ourselves and others. It's good that we integrate, we want to help. It will work like a vaccine. It does not change the fact that our king will make the choice…. because it has to, and we are committed to the protection of our health and life ONLY of ourselves. For us, our life is the most valuable we have - for the kingdom it may be an important value but unfortunately - not the most important. [..] Lisanne and Kris are tragic victims and this is a great tragedy for all of us. But the loser is also the king. Think about how such an attack is also and could also have been aimed at the king or his officials. But Lisanne and Kris are victims who had their most important life taken away. The king does not protect the bandits at all. In the name of limiting the effects of the tragedy, the king tries to calm society, tourists and the kingdom. It has nothing to do with the victims. If I had died there, it would probably have been the same. With the difference that in my case no one would write two sentences about it, let alone books, blogs and movies on YT :) - Disclaimer: I live in the EU and have nothing to do with Panama. I have never been there and I am sure that I will not have time to see all the natural wonders of Europe until the end of my life, so there is no chance of a trip to Panama. Sorry for my English. Greetings to everyone and thank you for your attention."
Conary replied: "I always thought along these lines as well, that there must be a huge national interest to make this look like an accident to protect the tourism industry. It could be that the third party was either connected to drug cartels that operate in the area, and that there was no chance of a thorough investigation into it. Or the third party has already been executed (there were a few mysterious deaths that happened after the girls got lost), so there didn't seem to be a reason for a due process, so law enforcement decided to simply make it look like an accident as to not draw any more international attention to it."
Vornez wrote on April 30th 2021
"SD card photos removed by perpetrator?' - One possiblility that always exists with the SX270 is the ability to remove sections of photos without that act of deletion being noticed. And clearly it was the financial reward that resulted in the backpack being returned in the first place. That 30k would have been a strong motivating factor here, where a distant family of the actual perpetrator pretends to just find the backpack, that's probably a more likely scenario. Clearly they wanted the reward, but couldn't risk revealing anything that would have given away the night location. It's that factor that explains such a vague amount of photography left on the camera, barely even 3 ground photo's indicating where they were. No nightime photos' on any previous nights either. As opposed to completely deleting all the photos, which would have been considered rather suspicious, several final photos were intentionally left on the SD card, but nothing authentic enough to adequately describe their actual circumstances properly. Nothing indicates this location is really a cliff. A handful of vague photos were left on the SD card as a basic attempt to convince the Panama police that an accident was more likely here, without showing excessive detail. Although Kris or Lisanne did actually take them, what we do know is that for unknown reasons the girls did stray long distances either further onto a Pianista farm or beyond the trail onto the east side farms. But it's a fairly pessimistic view of the girls' abilities, to suggest they both fell off a cliff. Assuming they did travel onto one of the east side properties, though they may have found themselves on a thin path, it's still a little difficult to find slopes greater than 45 degrees at those locations. Unless a path is present, you still need to travel through 150 metres of jungle from a cleared farm area to reach them. Not only that, to have a careless accident, and then not bother to photograph a properly meaningful set of circumstances... it has a slightly suspicious element of missing camera evidence. They're not the notorious steep drop cliffs (From sedimentary rocks - that include sandstone, limestone, chalk) it's likely more of the igneous and dolomite rocks such as granite and basalt often in the form of large boulders that appear here. Often while there are some hard drops where waterfalls occur, it's likely that the rockwall behind them, (the one within the night photos which never got photographed,) is only likely 1 - 1.5 metres tall. While there are some uncertain aspects that permit genuine accidents, under the most unfortunate of circumstances, they were two young healthy fit women. What would make 2 girls rapidly flee into the jungle, fall off this small slope and get injured, is because of an ambush and assault incident that may have taken place instead.
Conary replied: "Seems pretty plausible to me that this wasn't planned, and that the perpetrators made decisions along the way. [..] I think there was a third party involved somehow, and that the phones were taken from the girls shortly after the first emergency call. I also believe that the girls were allowed to keep their camera. After they both passed away, the third party took possession of the camera, clothing, and, after the bodies decomposed, probably of the bones as well, and prepared the evidence (e.g deleting photo 508). They planted the shorts, bones, backpack etc. in such a way to make it look like an accident. And at least one of them is probably a contributing member of this forum, calling it an accident and shutting down everybody else who ever suggests that there must be more to the story than the girls just getting lost."
Aka-ryuu replied: "That doesn't explain the phone calls, neither the night pictures. It really is trying to create a complicated story out of something much more simpler and realistic..."
Acid-Moonraker72 replied: "Imagine you are the King. Your kingdom is mostly relying on tourism, and all your kingdom's income is generated by tourists. And here is such a tragedy taking place in this kingdom. You are determined and you want to help, you do a lot, believing that it is an accident and that you are about to save two missing people. You know that only then will you [achieve to] save everything, including the business [attractiveness] of your kingdom. Unfortunately - it turns out that this is not an accident, but a terrible planned murder. Absolute evil. You find terrible evidence that evil has been living hidden in your kingdom. What are you doing?? An open trial dragged out over the years by successive lawyers, psychiatrists, psychologists, the media, defenders of any rights, or the influential background of the perpetrators? Do you expose the good of the kingdom, many secrets, subjects, and the families of the victims to a long-term trial? Do you do your best to mitigate the consequences in the face of a great tragedy? You create a fairy tale that must give everyone a chance to experience this nightmare and forget it, you feed alligators to the perpetrators and you give a mountain of bitcoins to your family, you do a lot to prevent such tragedies from happening, although you know that it is only a matter of time and place.On the other hand, we, ordinary little people, will build our alternative worlds on such discussions. Why? Because we have to experience it in our minds. We have to learn to live with it. Because we disagree with this terrible choice that our king was faced with. Because we want to believe that we are always safe and that someone protects us. Because we want to play even the smallest role to help ourselves and others. It's good that we integrate, we want to help. It will work like a vaccine. It does not change the fact that our king will make the choice…. because it has to, and we are committed to the protection of our health and life ONLY of ourselves. For us, our life is the most valuable we have - for the kingdom it may be an important value but unfortunately - not the most important. [..] Lisanne and Kris are tragic victims and this is a great tragedy for all of us. But the loser is also the king. Think about how such an attack is also and could also have been aimed at the king or his officials. But Lisanne and Kris are victims who had their most important life taken away. The king does not protect the bandits at all. In the name of limiting the effects of the tragedy, the king tries to calm society, tourists and the kingdom. It has nothing to do with the victims. If I had died there, it would probably have been the same. With the difference that in my case no one would write two sentences about it, let alone books, blogs and movies on YT :) - Disclaimer: I live in the EU and have nothing to do with Panama. I have never been there and I am sure that I will not have time to see all the natural wonders of Europe until the end of my life, so there is no chance of a trip to Panama. Sorry for my English. Greetings to everyone and thank you for your attention."
Conary replied: "I always thought along these lines as well, that there must be a huge national interest to make this look like an accident to protect the tourism industry. It could be that the third party was either connected to drug cartels that operate in the area, and that there was no chance of a thorough investigation into it. Or the third party has already been executed (there were a few mysterious deaths that happened after the girls got lost), so there didn't seem to be a reason for a due process, so law enforcement decided to simply make it look like an accident as to not draw any more international attention to it."Neverbeentooclever replied: "That would explain a lot of things, but many would argue it's too big in scope for such a little case of two missing hikers."
Acid-Moonraker72 replied: "On a superficial basis, I would agree with you. But at the process stage, you don't know what is a small factor and what is a large factor. History has shown many times that great and tragic events have arisen out of a very small matter. The murder in Sarajevo on April 28, 1914 could not by any means cause the outbreak of World War I, and as a consequence, new free states appeared on the world map after this war. Isaac Newton got an apple and thanks to this we fly to Mars. We can judge whether something was of little or no importance after the fact. In the story of Lisanne and Kris, we don't even know what happened behind the scenes. Perhaps the whole situation eluded the main players, or maybe it's just another episode, episode 34457 as in the series "Santa Barbara" or "Dynasty". We don't know and we won't find out. Just as we did not find out why General Sikorski's plane fell in Gibraltar."
Neverbeentooclever replied: "I don't think it's completely out of the question. As I said, it would explain a lot. Take 509, for example. It's a regular, and quite valid, question to ask why someone would bother going to the lengths it would take to eradicate it from existence if they could just get rid of the whole card. A possible explanation is that they couldn't. If the card was already logged into inventory, they would not be able to just get rid of it. One of the more curious aspects of the case is the convenient lack of conclusive evidence at all junctures. No matter what avenue you take, the one piece of proof of them being lost or killed is always missing. Whether it be a crucial picture, cell phone signal data, deep analysis of the remains or more remains at all. Juuuust enough evidence was found to come to a thinly supported conclusion and close the case. The backpack was found to tell us something happened, but not what. Remains were found to tell us they are dead, but not how they died or where. It's enough to raise an eyebrow. Or, someone arguing otherwise might say it's rather typical. A very large portion of murders and missing persons cases go unsolved and no one knows what happened to those poor people."
Anne the queene replied: "I would think a person capable would know to keep as much forensic evidence "together" at all times as possible. If kidnapped I presume it made them immobile. Either by drugs or by being tied. This makes for limited mobility and swollen hands. Kind of gives me that feel with the night photos. Immobile. Can reach but perhaps can't use the camera properly. And if they were moved from a Finca to outdoors, they definitely would have had to be subdued in a way. So, that kind of explained to me - in that scenerio - the limited use of the phones and the night time photos. Someone with limited freedom to move their hands. Or using feet to knock against things. Sometimes I wonder why people believe the foul play scenerio/do not believe the foul play scenerio without ever considering the girls being subdued. If not by drugs then definitely by being kept immobile. So if anything....it helps explain why there was:
*Limited use of phones
*Incorrect pin/only checks after day 5 (imagine how swollen their hands would be)
*The small items like twigs and bag bits. What else would they be able to reach/assemble?
*The nighttime photos seem to be taken for a purpose. Conveying SOMETHING. If tied up and knocking the camera to flash...perhaps trying for a selfie...perhaps the angle of Kris' photo being from the back/up (not determined but perhaps that's the angle of hands behind back grabbing the camera and trying)
*The girls not documenting anything further. If it was foul play: these girls wouldn't be upright/able to wander/be fully mobile. Or locked in a Room. It would seem keeping their things near them and tying them down was presumed effective. And perhaps it was not effective. Perhaps the girls were very determined to leave something behind."
*Limited use of phones
*Incorrect pin/only checks after day 5 (imagine how swollen their hands would be)
*The small items like twigs and bag bits. What else would they be able to reach/assemble?
*The nighttime photos seem to be taken for a purpose. Conveying SOMETHING. If tied up and knocking the camera to flash...perhaps trying for a selfie...perhaps the angle of Kris' photo being from the back/up (not determined but perhaps that's the angle of hands behind back grabbing the camera and trying)
*The girls not documenting anything further. If it was foul play: these girls wouldn't be upright/able to wander/be fully mobile. Or locked in a Room. It would seem keeping their things near them and tying them down was presumed effective. And perhaps it was not effective. Perhaps the girls were very determined to leave something behind."
Vornez wrote on April 30th 2021"SD card photos removed by perpetrator?' - One possiblility that always exists with the SX270 is the ability to remove sections of photos without that act of deletion being noticed. And clearly it was the financial reward that resulted in the backpack being returned in the first place. That 30k would have been a strong motivating factor here, where a distant family of the actual perpetrator pretends to just find the backpack, that's probably a more likely scenario. Clearly they wanted the reward, but couldn't risk revealing anything that would have given away the night location. It's that factor that explains such a vague amount of photography left on the camera, barely even 3 ground photo's indicating where they were. No nightime photos' on any previous nights either. As opposed to completely deleting all the photos, which would have been considered rather suspicious, several final photos were intentionally left on the SD card, but nothing authentic enough to adequately describe their actual circumstances properly. Nothing indicates this location is really a cliff. A handful of vague photos were left on the SD card as a basic attempt to convince the Panama police that an accident was more likely here, without showing excessive detail. Although Kris or Lisanne did actually take them, what we do know is that for unknown reasons the girls did stray long distances either further onto a Pianista farm or beyond the trail onto the east side farms. But it's a fairly pessimistic view of the girls' abilities, to suggest they both fell off a cliff. Assuming they did travel onto one of the east side properties, though they may have found themselves on a thin path, it's still a little difficult to find slopes greater than 45 degrees at those locations. Unless a path is present, you still need to travel through 150 metres of jungle from a cleared farm area to reach them. Not only that, to have a careless accident, and then not bother to photograph a properly meaningful set of circumstances... it has a slightly suspicious element of missing camera evidence. They're not the notorious steep drop cliffs (From sedimentary rocks - that include sandstone, limestone, chalk) it's likely more of the igneous and dolomite rocks such as granite and basalt often in the form of large boulders that appear here. Often while there are some hard drops where waterfalls occur, it's likely that the rockwall behind them, (the one within the night photos which never got photographed,) is only likely 1 - 1.5 metres tall. While there are some uncertain aspects that permit genuine accidents, under the most unfortunate of circumstances, they were two young healthy fit women. What would make 2 girls rapidly flee into the jungle, fall off this small slope and get injured, is because of an ambush and assault incident that may have taken place instead.
A lot of factors indicate they were hiding there and were too scared to make noise due to an unwanted perpetrator lurking nearby, trying to track them down. In regards to when they were doing activities, there's a suspicious lack of activity during the evening. My personal guess is that on day 1 at 4:39 PM, they called emergency because they realized they weren't going to make it back in time, they'd walked far away in the wrong direction. It was just a low priority emergency call, they then decided to spend the night on one east side farm and return safely the next day. What happened that night is that they were assaulted by some unknown assailants, they desperately fled into the jungle and fell down that small drop, which may have given them some injuries. The assailants may have given up looking for them, but the girls were very scared and were forced to stay there for days until they were sure those men had left. Generally though what I think is that where you see these large rocky areas is what they call "outcropping". Jungle density is lowered and large gaps are visible between trees when viewed on satellite imagery. As opposed to the Pianista, which has less outcropping, the jungle is dense, which is why the dutch investigators think they fell down a slope on the Pianista and fell down into a trap caused by the dense forest. But here on the slopes of the east side, where all these water channels have been strongly etched away by the winter rains, that amount of rocky outcropping seen within the night photos would still have some limited access down a rocky slope, perhaps 160 metres back onto the Rio Changuinola. Unless you were severely injured, broken pelvis or back, which would make movement quite painful, there are some limited passages and exit passages through these areas. My personal guess says it's possible an assault incident was more likely than an accident here, that there was a perpetrator roaming nearby for some unknown amount of time, that they were a little injured from running away from him into that night location, but were hiding for several days while they tried to recover from their injuries and attempt a rescue while staying fairly quiet at other times. (source)
How Latin American videos about this case get so many comments from people who believe it was a crimeThe Vico wrote: "Remarks from a brazilian video about the case. Four months ago, the channel "Camila e Bruna" posted a two-part documentary about the case. The series are very well researched and judging from the channel name happened to travel in a similar way Kris and Lisanne traveled to Panama (with a friend). I recommend it for everyone to watch, since the auto-generated Portuguese subtitles are good enough to be translated to English without much ramble. But what caught my attention the most, was the content of the comments under the videos about this case. They really believe in foul play and went so far as to claim they could have been victms of a drug cartel or even of organ trafficking. Or that one of the girls had a bad omen before travelling to Panama. I believe that because we Brazilians also live in a Latin American country (even though we are Portuguese-speaking and have several differences in relation to Spanish-speaking neighbors), we have a certain tendency to assume this kind of incident should have a high probability of being foul-play. Important to note: we have 3/4 of the largest rainforest in the world in our territory. Seems like folks living in "first-world" countries tend to cling on to the technical aspects of the case, always thinking about an accidental death, while us Latin-Americans always think of foul-play first, considering we know so many similar incidents that happened in our own country. So here are some interesting comments I found below those videos:
#1. "Lisanne had an intuition, but she didn't know how to decipher it. Very sad. I always listen to my intuition. An alert lights up. There's no one to make me go or do anything. I get out. Here's the tip. It can be a deliverance."
#2. "I always found the information that the family dog followed them to the trail strange and then came back, since there is a considerable distance between the host family house and the trail. This case is too sad. Two young girls full of dreams that were destroyed and two families that had such an unpleasant surprise changing their lives forever."
#3. "For me, these girls were ambushed by the local gangs... that would explain this apparent witness elimination! (...) It is quite possible that they were already being watched long before the beginning of the trail."
#4. "I'm sure they suffered a lot, and were very afraid before they died. For me Kris died first, and Lisanne days later, and she was the one who made the other calls on Kris' cell phone. It is strange that the guide went to their room and stayed there for a long time, the receptionist who left and certainly knew something, gives the impression that the guide wanted to go to the room to analyze if something did not connect the case to him. They were locked and with access to the cell phone, because I am sure the psychopath knew that the cell phone didn’t give away the area there. The time slots when they tried to call the emergency numbers were very similar, so I think it could be someone who went out to work. The attempts to unlock the cell phone, I don't think it was Lisanne, but the kidnapper. At that time I think she was already dead, the person wanted to have access to whatever she had on her cell phone. The camera photos were either Lisanne in great fear and despair, or the kidnapper really wanting to lose track and pretend they were lost in the forest and in need of help. It was a real disregard that authorities did not analyze the fingerprints enough. The bras in the bag were the ones the girls were wearing on the day they went missing, but the sunglasses seemed different, and why were the bras in the backpack? Whoever takes off a bra and puts it in the backpack, if not the psychopath himself. They just spread things around to make people understand that they were dead to help close the case. And the photos are strange, the movement of their bodies looked like they were leaning against someone. And Lisanne's broken foot may even be the work of the kidnappers, to prevent her from escaping. And if they returned their cell phone and camera, it is because whoever killed knew that there would be nothing incriminating on them and even if they could incriminate, they hid those things. So it must be someone very important, for authorities to neglect this case so badly. It is a sad case, because I am sure the family would only like answers, because there is no way back. And that they suffered, they suffered a lot! There was a heavy energy and suffering in the air, Lisanne must have repeated at times "what did I do", because she did not follow her instincts. I hope their souls are at rest, but the energy shows that they are still troubled. The calls show that they did not give up easy and they were not killed that fast either. If they had been saved, imagine the trauma, my God."
#5. "The whole of Panama is dominated by drug cartels! So much so that most who travel by motorbike to Alaska catch a plane and dispatch the motorbike to Mexico or some other country in Central America that is a little safer. All to avoid Panama. It is a rare exception even for adventurers to go there. Second point, as they are in a small town: it is obvious that their presence would attract everyone's attention. Third point, Panama is a route for organ trafficking and this is known worldwide. In my opinion, they were victims of organ trafficking. Someone has following them. As for the police in Panama: for those who have no knowledge of this, let me say that basically they have no power to do anything, because the traffickers dominate the entire country. The problem of getting proper fingerprint identification already demonstrates that they were probably people linked to the drug cartels or wanted for organ trafficking. As the country basically survives on tourism, investigations have been put on hold, so that the country would have no problems with their main source of income. Recalling that the young people who later showed up dead were linked to "Gangs", it already demonstrates that it was a premeditated action, like a shut-up to avoid interference in the tourism business, because they probably knew too much or in fact were the ones responsible. They were killed on different dates so as not to attract attention and the dispatch of the organs would be easier."
********
Double Photograph 86 replied: "I am Brazilian and I believe they just got lost. I've consumed 90% of everything about this case. Well ... I think I'm apparently a little suspicious Brazilian LOL"
Calasmo5 replied: "I’m Brazilian and think it’s foul play (although I wouldn’t go as far as saying it was organ trafficking or cartels). I know how rainforest hikings go, and it is really hard to wander off trail in those just because the bush is SO thick. Much different than temperate forests or mountains. I also know how crime is rampant in these places. And believe me, those two European girls would attract LOTS of attention. If it was Brazil, absolutely no one would advise them to go walking in jungles by themselves. That’s the sad reality."
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: [Lives in Boquete] "Some facts: the "jungle" or rainforest (it isn't) they were in, is more accurately described as generally a cloud forest at the higher elevations and ranges from 3k to 5k feet. It can be chilly at night and quite unlike what is found in most of the Amazon. The host family does NOT have a dog. Very sloppy reporting. Never checked wikipedia on this, and even if they did, taxis will NOT transport a dog the 5 miles or so to the hiking area. I checked on this. Call logs can be easily faked, per Scarlet R. blog. Looks like I am getting downvoted (again) because of my facts presented. Maybe I should switch to the more popular speculation."
Conary replied: "These are my thoughts exactly. Also, once you make your way through everything you can read about the case, you will notice that anyone who is even remotely connected to Boquete or is actually living there themselves, will be on the side of foul play, because they just know. It’s no secret in Boquete that a third party was involved." [Scarlet: except for a handful of ex-pats in Boquete, who seem hell-bent on demonizing anyone who warned about crime on local discussion forum Boquete Ning.. See thone such discussion I added below].
The Vico replied: "You also forgot to add in the linked video that near 5:18 the guide literally says: "Don't tell them anything" after seeing the parents talking between in Dutch. Also he won't let them to go through some paths (why?) on the journey. Like I said in other thread, when the case is shown for latin americans or brazilians (also on other YT videos about the case) the majority quickly consider that it is a foul play case, different from a lot of folks who still believe it was just pure bad luck for them."
Hubby233 wrote: "And let's take a moment to realize that most folks from this sub are sheltered Americans, Canadians and some Europeans. Only one or two of them have ACTUALLY visited Panama. These are privileged folks living in their white neighborhoods preaching as if they know anything because they like to go on the odd hike here or there in their safe zones LOL. [..] Tourists cannot know all the ins and outs of their holiday destination and nobody expects them to. But in this case there is so much information by now about kidnappings and murders in the area. Seems just lame for Northern Americans to even blast members who live IN Boquete or surrounding latin Am. countries as conspiracy idiots when they never even went to Panama themselves."
NeededMonster replied to Hubby233: "You know what? I frowned while reading your post but I have to admit that you are probably right. A lot of us don't have the experience of the dangers of life in Panama or similar places on Earth and this is probably not helping. It's good to keep it in mind."
The Vico replied to Hubby233: "THIS. I was thinking about saying something along this lines, but not so abrupt the way you said it. But yep, that's how I see it too. People in the first world really don't know how we feel living in countries where security (either health, tbh) isn't a priority for the governments. Organized crime is rampant and things like trafficking are organized almost like shadow states with their own rules and financial system. And the "official" govts are prone to be bribed by them. I know this is not the type of case where the majority’s opinion counts for something, but if you stumble across a couple of videos made by latins/brazilians to latins/brazilians about the case and in all of them folks comments they are sure that it was a crime, you should stop and think about where you live, how rich your country is and what lengths the State goes to keep you protected. Sure US have a lot of horrible crimes, mass shootings and such. In fact, judging solemnly on the content on r/UnresolvedMysteries one can consider that although "mundane" crime - theft, robbery, kidnapping for money extortion, rape, drug smuggling - aren't rampant in the US like in third country, crimes with psychotic background - hate crime, mass shootings for ideological reasons, terrorism, attacks to minorities - seems to be more common in US than in latin american countries. We need to take in consideration not only the science behind the case, but also human/societal aspects of this too. In fact, if this is really a foul-play scenario the criminals could (tried to) do harm to the girls and after dumping them in critical conditions in the woods, left them to die there. Very terrible scenario indeed."
GodsWarrior89 replied: "I do agree that people who haven’t traveled don’t realize the danger other countries have. I’ve been to other countries and each time I was always on alert. You have to be. My parents grilled stuff like this in my head since I was little. I’m truly grateful they did though. Even in the most wealthy countries, there’s crime. Stuff like what happened to Kris and L happen everywhere even here in America. People don’t realize it can happen to them or in their country. There’s monsters out there and people just need to be careful. South America is particularly bad when it comes to crime and trafficking. I’m not saying that’s what happened for this particular case but just saying it in general."
Boquete's forum members discussed also a warning safety leaflet, issued locally in town
By Linch K., April 16th 2014
Source
"Despite what people in Boquete think, Human Trafficking is here and has been for a long time. Panama is a source, transit, and destination country for women and children subjected to trafficking in persons, specifically forced prostitution. Although some Panamanian women and girls are found in forced prostitution in other countries in Latin America and in Europe, most Panamanian trafficking victims are exploited within the country. Although statistics were lacking, both NGOs and government officials anecdotally reported that commercial sexual exploitation of children was greater in rural areas and in the city of Colon than in Panama City. NGOs report that some Panamanian children, mostly young girls, are subjected to involuntary domestic servitude. Most foreign sex trafficking victims are adult women from Colombia, the Dominican Republic, and neighboring Central American countries; some victims migrate voluntarily to Panama to work but are subsequently forced into prostitution. Weak controls along Panama’s borders make the nation an easy transit point for irregular migrants, from Latin America, East Africa, and Asia, some of who may fall victim to human trafficking.
The Government of Panama does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. During the reporting period authorities increased public awareness about the prostitution of children through seminars in schools and an outreach campaign with the tourism sector. Despite such efforts, the government showed little evidence of progress in combating human trafficking. Law enforcement efforts remained weak, the Panamanian penal code did not prohibit trafficking for forced labor, and the government failed to provide adequate assistance to victims and to identify trafficking victims among vulnerable populations; therefore, Panama is placed on Tier 2 Watch List. Recommendations for Panama: Amend anti-trafficking laws to prohibit forced labor, including involuntary domestic servitude; intensify law enforcement efforts to investigate and prosecute trafficking offenses and convict and sentence trafficking offenders, including any public officials complicit with trafficking activity; train government officials in anti-trafficking laws and victim identification and care; dedicate more resources for victim services; and develop a formal system for identifying trafficking victims among vulnerable populations, particularly women in prostitution.
Prosecution
The Government of Panama maintained its law enforcement efforts against trafficking crimes during the reporting period. Article 178 of the Panamanian penal code, which was updated in 2008, prohibits the internal and transnational movement of persons for the purpose of sexual servitude or forced commercial sexual activity. The prescribed sentence is four to six years imprisonment, which is increased to six to nine years if trafficking offenders use deceit, coercion, or retain identity documents, and is further increased to 10 to 15 years if the victim is under 14 years of age. Article 177 prohibits sexually exploiting another person for profit. Under aggravated circumstances of threat, force, or fraud, this constitutes human trafficking as defined by international protocol, and carries a sentence of eight to 10 years. Article 180 prohibits the internal and transnational trafficking of minors for sexual servitude, prescribing prison terms of eight to 10 years imprisonment, and Article 179 prohibits subjecting an individual to sexual servitude using threats or violence. Prosecutors may also use other statutes, such as anti-pimping laws, to prosecute trafficking crimes. The above punishments are sufficiently stringent and commensurate with those prescribed for rape. Panamanian law, however, does not specifically prohibit human trafficking for the purpose of forced labor, including domestic servitude. During the reporting period, the government investigated eight human trafficking cases and seven cases of commercial sexual exploitation of a child, which is comparable with last year’s efforts. During the year, however, authorities achieved only one conviction, compared with two achieved during the previous reporting period. The trafficking offender was sentenced to 72 months for pimping a child, which was reduced to 48 months incarceration for unreported reasons. This sentence does not appear to meet the standards established in the Panamanian penal code for this crime. Authorities maintained a small law enforcement unit to investigate sex trafficking and related offenses, and Panamanian law required that one prosecutor in each of Panama’s 13 provinces be trained to prosecute trafficking crimes. One prosecutor based in Panama City was dedicated exclusively to prosecuting trafficking crimes. There were no reports of partnerships with foreign governments in joint investigations of trafficking crimes during the reporting period, although Panamanian authorities met with Colombian officials to exchange information. The government opened no formal trafficking-related corruption investigations during the reporting period. Some judges received training on sex trafficking. There were no reports of training for the members of the diplomatic corps abroad.
Protection
The Panamanian government sustained limited efforts to assist trafficking victims during the reporting period, though overall victim services remained inadequate, particularly for adult victims. Authorities did not employ systematic procedures for identifying trafficking victims among vulnerable populations, such as women in prostitution or detained irregular migrants. Panamanian law requires the National Immigration Office’s trafficking victims unit to provide assistance to foreign trafficking victims. During the reporting period, however, authorities did not report extending victim services to repatriated Panamanian victims or foreign victims of trafficking, and the Immigration Office indicated that there were no foreign victims of trafficking over the past year. The government continued to provide partial funding to an NGO-operated shelter with dedicated housing and social services for child trafficking victims. This shelter, in addition to another NGO shelter working with at-risk youth, and the government’s network of shelters for victims of abuse and violence could provide services to child victims of trafficking, although the government did not report assisting any child victims last year. A shelter for child trafficking victims, funded by a foreign government, was in the process of being constructed. There was no shelter care available exclusively for adult victims of trafficking. The government could house adult victims in hotels on an ad hoc basis but did not report doing so or providing any legal, medical, or psychological services or long-term care to adult trafficking victims during this reporting period. In past years, Panamanian authorities encouraged victims to assist with the investigation and prosecution of trafficking offenders, although few victims chose to do so. The government did not provide foreign victims with legal alternatives to their return to countries where they may face hardship or retribution, although in past years foreign victims were allowed to remain in country during investigations. Trafficking victims were not penalized for unlawful acts committed as a direct result of being trafficked; however, due to the lack of victim identification strategies, not all foreign victims may have been identified before deportation.
Prevention
The government maintained efforts to prevent human trafficking during the reporting period. To raise awareness about commercial sexual exploitation of children, the government conducted seminars in 84 schools, reaching 6,900 students, 230 teachers, and 140 parents. In collaboration with the ILO, the National Commission for the Prevention of Crimes of Sexual Exploitation, a multiagency task force, sent 300 letters to the tourism sector to raise awareness of commercial sexual exploitation of children. Child sex tourism is prohibited by law, though there were no reported prosecutions of sex tourists during the reporting period. During the reporting period, the government implemented its National Plan for Prevention and Elimination of Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children and Adolescents by publishing a comprehensive guide on health care of children and adolescent victims of commercial sexual exploitation and through supporting a study of sex trafficking in Panama. The government undertook no initiatives to reduce demand for forced labor.
This was taken from a Department of State Report on Human Trafficking. I thought I would put this out there since I read a post by BEC that made mention of preventing future issues. From what I hear around Boquete, most people are naïve or simply in denial. It is common around the world even in quiet Boquete. I love to point out statistics and facts, and this would be a primary reason this particular popular tourist destination was most likely selected. Keep in mind that this is the 4th case in the last 10 years, which is extremely low by most agency or country standards. However it does lend credence to the fact that it's here. There are many steps that can be taken to prevent or slow the rate of Human Trafficking, I would suggest that training be attained from Qualified Professionals in the field. And the neighborhood watch does not count, well... unless it involves the responsible use of a boat horn. If Ning users want to be proactive, and personally contribute to the search for these young ladies I would suggest going to a website named Backpage.com and breaking it up by country and compare the pictures of the escorts to those of the missing girls. I have personally worked 4 recovery missions that were given actionable intel from this site. Start with the middle east, UAE being my first choice.
Replies (some of them)
Lee Zeltzer wrote on April 21st, 2014: "I have thought a lot before taking the action of closing this thread. It was of interest although the information cited was years out of date. Panama is a tier 2 country as are most non "first world" countries that do not fall into tier 3. Panama is not great on protection of victims of human trafficking in fact they offer Colombians a special sex trade Visa. None of this except the claim of four possible abductions in all of Panama is relevant. Since the one I know about, and the only other case in Boquete was a 29 year old British male. I doubt he was abducted for sex trade so that tragedy is probably not related to the content of this thread. I do not want to discount the problem nor the risk of abduction or being lost in the wilderness surrounding Boquete. I realize closing the barn door after the horses have escaped is important as a precaution for others still inside. There are people trying to do that now, Fran, Lori and the Spanish Language Schools are all trying to prevent this from occurring again. We are all hoping for a positive event and positive ending of this horror for Lisanne and Kris but this thread has become shopworn and is now closed."
C. B. L. wrote on April 20th, 2014: "Don't believe me then! Keep skipping around town pretending everything is la di la. Go check yourself. It's public record. Go to the DIJ and the sala judicial and ask them for files about the child porn case in boquete. I don't need to give you specifics, do the work yourself if you want verification. I was there. I saw the kids and the perps. I don't need verification that Boquete is about to go the way of Costa Rica. [..] Isn't the sex traffic theory speculating as well? Give me a break. This is reality. I can't sugar coat this nor it shouldn't be. My heart goes out to the family, but this is the real world, the 3rd world. This idea, you call it speculating, should have been investigated on day one. Many investigations and crimes are solved in the first 48 hours, after that, the odds of solving drop exponentially. You can read about the 2007-8 case, I don't know the exact date in the Prensa archives. there is also a youtube video about child porn that mentions Boquete and that case. The DIJ has info as well. You won't read about it in any Boquete welcome center."
Linch K. replied on April 19th, 2014: "Susan, I gave credit where it was due, the call center is a good thing even though I personally disagree with it. I feel if you chose to live in a Spanish speaking country then you should be able to communicate in said language. I have no axe to grind other than AAC has no business involved in a case such as this. They should know their place and stay in it. As far as being a true professional, brutal honesty just comes with the territory, sorry my chosen profession does not afford me the privilege to hug a tree every time my feelings are hurt. I tell you what, when everyone involved with AAC produces some credentials that validate their existence, I will close my ning account and leave the neighbor hood watch alone."
Henrietta V S wrote on April 19th, 2014: "WOW! Your post - your novella - is so wrong on so many different levels it's actually quite sad. I mean WOW. Good luck with that."
C. B. L. wrote on April 19th, 2014: "Why argue with these people? They're nothing but hero complexed ex-pats with no achievements. Ask for credentials, you get silence. Ask them for schools, nothing. All they do is brag, and brag about what they know is good for other people just to reprimand them later. You can't praise and scold in the same paragraph. Just leave them alone. Let them waste their energy.
Safe Home Security of Panama wrote on April 18th, 2014: "No one did a damn thing to research human trafficking/kidnapping or think about "what if there is one ounce of merit to the stories and the mayors warning". Hey "we have many young people that visit here maybe we should have the hostels, and other venues have some basic warnings and guide lines for our young visitors". Thankfully my kids school did up the security and protocol for pick up at the time of the reports. We are all aware of the evil in the world, especially to young women but most made the choice to dismiss the mayors warning and media coverage in Oct 2013. Instead of being pro-active, the warnings I posted were considered rumors and made fun of. I just feel bad, if our community would have used common sense maybe two young women would be home with their families. Hopefully in the future, young visitors that vacation in Chiriquí will be given some safety advise on their arrival." [..] "I posted several stories from local tv and newspapers in Oct 2013 about alleged kidnappings in Chiriqui on Ning. Many of the usual negative people chastised me for writing and called it a rumor. Many did not take me or any of the kidnappings seriously. I was overreacting and all the media outlets were lying, even the mayor.. A statement from the mayor Nov, 2013: the Mayor of San Lorenzo district, eastern Chiriqui, issued a statement alerting parents to pending departure of students in the college, and also monitor small when they are at home. Mireya Rodriguez Moreno, Deputy Mayor of San Lorenzo district, said the statement is a warning to parents, mainly because information was received from the National Police over an alleged kidnapping in the village of Mount Boca, San Lorenzo. "Yesterday the police told us of an alleged kidnapping in Boca del monte community. Well if the community would have taken any of it more seriously, maybe tourists would have been warned about traveling alone, recommendations about not taking rides with strangers, not hiking alone or informing foster homes where they were going and when they were scheduled to return. Pathetic... Linch..good job, tag your it!"
Mark Heyer wrote on April 18, 2014: "Linch, Your comments are right on the money, thanks. Although we don't know for sure, this event fits the profile: Attractive young women traveling UNACCOMPANIED are spotted at airports (San Jose) and turned over to catchers who befriend them and get them into a car under some pretext and convey them to the "business." Boquete itself is not being targeted, it was just the place where they let their guard down and took a ride, if indeed that is what happened. Human trafficking is an international problem, but it is also preventable if we took it as seriously as, say AIDS. Much more to be said going forward."
C. B. L. replied on April 20th, 2014: "When I started to come back to Panama to visit my parents and contracting with the u.s. embassy, in 2008, the child sex ring was recently busted in Caldera. It surprised me because I grew up here and that was unheard of. Among those found were many missing children that were kidnapped from around Panama, Costa Rica and Columbia and used as sex slaves. I did many details with the embassy and no one paid much attention because none were American. It was found that some kids were sent to other countries or even murdered. Some of those bodies were found without organs. No one can tell me crime is not a happening here. I am here because of crime, a personal one. There are murders, kidnappings, rapes, burglaries and simple attacks on people here that did not happen before. The Pianista trail is famous for those attacks. No one knows if the girls were kidnapped and used for sex slavery. It is just a theory. Another is that it was foul play, and the girls are... you know what. The thing to know is that if that's the case, the person or persons are still on the loose and will strike again. I've done too much and been though hell training to not know that. All of you should too. Take your hands from your eyes and ears and wake up."
Jim T. wrote on April 17th, 2014: "Don't forget the owners of Montañas de Caldera. Maybe this explains their disappearance.:)" [..] "When I first came to Panama I was standing in Line at the airport talking to a man from Miami. I asked why since he lived in Miami would he be going to Panama. He looked me up and down for a moment, got a small smile on his face and said "Because señor, You can get anything you want in Panama".
Dave Mullen wrote on March 7th, 2021
"My question is why only Kris bones show bleaching and not Lisannes? Why would [a perpetrator] ensure Kris bones were stripped of all flesh but not Lisannes? Why would a chemical only be used on one and not the other? This topic is open to interpretation. When you have a scenario where two missing people are found in a wild river setting like this one, and two months have passed since they disappeared, then there really is not much to go on. Anything is possible. Anything is possible in a remote location like this, with a flowing river, uncertain rainfalls, and two months having passed, anything is possible. And that is why we are here with this sad case.Still, the suspicions over Kris Kremers' fate were actually raised by the coroner who inspected her recovered pelvis. Of Kris Kremers only this pelvis and a lone rib were found, along with a strangely bleached boot. When you put the boot together with the report on the pelvis, then clearly you do have to wonder why it is that these two very different items could end up bleached - it can't be the sun, not in just two months, even if Kris Kremers' remains had been sat on a bank for all those weeks it is very very unlikely the Sunlight in Panama is strong enough to deliver this effect. By all accounts the bone and boot were bleached allround, not just on one side. So as astonishing as the claims of human intervention are, you do have to open your mind to this real possibility.
The other detail that has come to light lies in a coroners report on the few bones recovered from Lisanne Froon. Therein the examiner apparently makes specific note that at least one bone shows clear signs of "Root stain", an effect caused when bones are buried just beneath the earths surface and the acidic roots of grass and plants causes transfer to the bone buried there. It is another astonishing detail in this case, one that seems to have been deliberately suppressed by authorities. So the suggestion here might be that someone tried to break down Kris Kremers' remains with Lime or a similar substance, and either there was insufficient lime to fully complete the process with two bodies, or the person doing this simply did not have the time or opportunity to process two bodies - disposal of a body is not an easy task, it does require privacy for one thing, and a good deal of time and resources. It has been a very peculiar detail to note that over the course of five months Lisanne Froon's left leg was gradually found. Along the banks of the river apparently. Nothing else of her, just the leg. Why should that be? Why should it be that the locals who searched the river and banks up to the cable bridge found a number of small bones (from unknown persons), but none from these two recently deceased girls? Why is it that a backpack is allegedly found washed up on the banks of Alto Romero by the river, but nothing else....? No remains. Despite the river that passes by the village and is bathed in and washed in probably daily, no one spotted a thing apparently.
Anything is possible in a remote location like this. With a flowing river and two months having passed anything is possible. If it is a murder or Foul Play scenario then it is a near perfect crime thanks to these factors. But, if the coroner and science can show off that something is amiss with the few recovered items, then along with other factors (the backpack and shorts) we can potentially formulate an alternative and credible hypothesis to go against the authorities preferred verdict of it being "Accident". This is the value of science, Forensic science. This is why it exists. I would think if these remains had been found in the West, and coroners reports on the few remains of the two friends which were recovered were stating "Root Stains" and "Bleaching/Phosphorus", then the authorities would be immediately shifting to a 'Suspected Murder' investigation. That none of this happened in Panama says all you need to know about the culture over there, and the indifference of the authorities when faced with a failure in their duty of care to visitors and guests to their country."
And: "I don't know enough about the science involved in this hypothetical scenario, but the suggestion that something like Lime might have been used to break down a body is reminiscent of John Haigh's method of operation - Haigh would kill his victims for robbery, put their bodies into drums filled with Sulphuric acid, and after around two or so days the bodies would have broken down completely. Except... not quite. Even though the acid was about the most corrosive chemical you could find, the liquidisation of a body still left a mass residue - Lime might be a substitute for Sulphuric acid, but if the strength and potency is not carefully measured than it is quite possible that while a body would break down it would not be a complete breakdown. A boot might escape intact, if discoloured. And certain bones too might be spared. But what IS left behind is still a mass of putrefied lime and human pulp that needs to be disposed of.... Of course, this is all hypothesis. But there has to be a source and origin for that bleached boot and pelvis. Which is why I have to make the point that while there is a degree of ambiguity to it all, science is still science. If a forensic inspection delivers a conclusion of "Phosphorus/Bleaching" then that has to be taken for what it is - Suspicious."
And: Still, it has always struck me how convenient it is that out of the very few remains found of the two friends one just happens to be a broken Pelvis, from Kris Kremers, and the other is a broken foot from Lisanne Froon. This may be a coincidence. It may be pure chance that two of the found bones just happened to be shattered, and thereby add weight to the narrative that there must have been an accident up at the Cable bridge. But on top of that it also struck me how odd it was that the search party from Alto Romero, led by the Guide, apparently stopped at that Cable bridge... they had walked and searched the roughly three kilometres from Romero and found the foot of Lisanne behind a log, pelvis from Kris, and eventually Kris' denim shorts just down from the Bridge, and somehow decided that that was that. Why though? Why did they not walk just a little further up, past the bridge? What could have been so conclusive at this point of their search about the "accident at the Bridge" idea? I have always found that detail a little odd. There IS no reason at his point in their search for them to think this is where it ends. That there is no possibility there is more to be discovered further upwards. It doesn't carry any real conviction on the face of it. In theory I can see a scenario where the two (somehow) walk themselves away from the trail and are lost, and it could well be they end up finding the tributary that leads to the main culeabra river and decide to follow it, which would eventually lead to the 1st Bridge.... but the logic starts to fray here for me as if you accept the phone logs it would be three or four days before Kris' pin codes stop being entered. And I have a very hard time thinking on them spending three to five days following this river to the 1st bridge, never mind the 2nd. It doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. And I do think that when you are left performing some real mental gymnastics in order to make a scenario work, it is wise to question its entire credibility. Either the scenario stands up to logic and facts, or it doesn't. Which is why, personally, I am increasingly sceptical today on the whole idea of the 2nd Cable Bridge being the epicentre of what finally stopped and ended the two friends. This is a narrative that was created by the discovery of the backpack, and in turn its leading to the remains being discovered, in bread-trail fashion, ending with the Shorts, which were apparently just down from the 2nd Bridge and acting as a metaphorical marker for where the disaster must have occurred. In principle I expect there has to be access down the banks of the main river as the Alto Romero party seemed able to follow the river up from the village as far as the cable bridge. Whether you can follow the river that tightly up beyond the bridge is hard to say, but I think if you accept Alto Romero's remote location and distance from Boquete then the generations who have lived there and commute the 14 hours needed between the two points, then there has to be a well travelled path between the two. Logically it would have to be in a more or less straight line too, unless I am missing something. I think it has to be borne in mind that these people live on the land and are a part of its geography. To them a long walk between one town to another is just a fact of life. So while a tourist like you or I would balk at the idea of a 14 hour walk to get somewhere, to these remote people it is a way of life."
And David Mullen also wrote: "I found it odd that when the backpack was found, the locals who responded to this apparently washed-up item by searching the river upstream, discovered some remains as they progressed upwards. A trail, a breadcrumb trail that eventually led to the cable bridge nearest to the village, where they find the denim shorts - 'X-Marks the spot' apparently. Because upon arriving here and finding these shorts it apparently stopped the search right there.... Why though? Why there, why not carry the search on up past the bridge to be sure that you have been thorough and satisfied? That question has always intrigued me, as when you think on this search party and the fact they are locals with intimate knowledge of this area and its quirks there is absolutely no reason why they should jump to a sudden conclusion that the bridge here was the source of whatever killed these two. In fact let's take it a little further and put ourselves there - why, as one of those villagers and the guide, are you so sure that these two girls tried to cross that bridge? Why, after such meagre finds on the river so far, are you thinking that one or both fell, Is this a logical scenario to you? Perhaps the path to an answer lies in those night photos on the camera, after all it is quite possible/likely that the guide and/or villagers have examined the contents of the camera and seen those strange shots, though the only two that have any significance to the bridge location is that boulder and that strange 'rockface'. Are they perhaps connecting these shots to the area beneath the bridge? If you think on it that doesn't make any sense. A rounded boulder is commonplace on the culabra river, indeed anywhere else with running water. And the 'Rockface'? Surely these people would know at a glance that that gouged surface is not going to be below the bridge, the geography is all wrong... So where it the logic here that is telling them this bridge is 'ground zero'?This is my bias speaking. While I do try to keep an open mind on the question of whether lost or foul play occurred to these two friends my view on the mystery of how and why Lisanne and Kris disappeared has been shaped by how much of the legend of their disappearance has been shaped by certain 'authorities'. I was there when Jeremy Kryt published those excellent articles on The Daily Beast, an authorative study and breakdown of the events and the evidence, and the conclusion he came to was hard to argue against as he was so compelling and authotarive on the subject. But then the night photo's were leaked to Juan and we suddenly had access to the source material he was basing a lot of his argument on, and... his argument started to fall apart. As what the photo's were showing us didn't quite match his conclusions and stated locations. So that was an important influence on me personally as it demonstrated graphically just how much of the accepted story of the disappearance was actually a construct evolved by people with 'authority' who were being taken at their word, and taken too seriously by all. The other connecting revelation to shape my attitudes and views over the story of Lisanne and Kris' disappearance was the early news interview with a certain guide, just days after he led the search and made the discoveries on the river he is there on camera with the media and crafting the idea that the two friends came to their end trying to cross the river, at the bridge, and the media ran with his verdict. His 'authorative' view was taken as fact, just like Jeremy Kryt's later studies, excellent though they were. My point in relating all of this here is that much of what the public knows about the disappearance and final fate of these two young guests to the country is actually a construct. A series of events that are actually not much more than assumptions. After all, how can this guide (and villagers) know for sure that the cable bridge is where the event took place? It doesn't make sense when you think it through. Why not further up the stream, leading to the other bridge further up? Jeremy Kryt built on that foundation set there and further emboldened it, but as with the guide what exactly is there about his (well argued) observations and conclusions that is any better than yours or mine? Because as we both know - no one knows what happened to these two friends. No one. That is the reality.
It's what bothers me about this book out in a few short weeks - "Lost in the Forest" is about as direct a title as you get, but whatever arguments the authors will make therein, and whatever new evidence they put forth, the reality is they don't know what happened, or why. What we will get I fear is Another 'authorative' account, another authorative take that will further distort the facts and known elements of the case and distract away from the primary actual evidence of what was found and said in those weeks after the disappearance. I myself seriously doubt that the night photo's were taken at that cable bridge. But that location is all part of the 'legend' now thanks to the guide and Jeremy Kryt. [..] The second Bridge is where the guide and villagers were so absolutely certain the 'event' occurred, this is the 'truth' they wanted the world to understand and accept. And the Panamanian and Dutch authorities seemed to accept this view with little or no questioning. Are we then at the point where no one questions such 'facts', where no one has the ability or impartiality to ask the simple and logical questions as to how a backpack arrives at a village kilometres away, contents undamaged and completely unmarked, while the actual bodies of two friends have apparently been dissipated into nothingness? Of why it is that a breadcrumb trail leading to a bridge upstream is enough to prove that that bridge is inarguably the guilty culprit and threw two girls off it onto the rocks and flowing river below? Can we not seriously ask and face the troubling question as to why the photography on April 1st stopped so abruptly when and where it did...? There are so so many things surrounding these initial weeks of the disappearance and discovery of remains that are not actually being seriously re-examined and questioned, and I think that is so very wrong."
"I have a strong feeling that it was the tour guide or those boys. I can tell you from first-hand experience being a Mexican American and having a lot of experience in Latin America, that the police and Justice system did not do a thorough search of the jungle, just like the locals said. And while I don’t think it was necessarily a cover-up, I think that they don’t have the resources and skills to cover a case of this magnitude. They probably also weren’t sure if it was cartel related, which would’ve made them apprehensive because in Latin America the cartel is heavily infiltrated in the justice system and they would have feared retribution. Which would have made sense as to why they were searching really hard when the parents were there, but not at all when they left, because they would’ve had the greenlight to do their jobs fully when the parents were there. Because the cartel or gangs are not going to just kill people while these Europeans and the world news is there. I also think the guide might have cartel ties. Think about it, he lives in the remote jungle, a great spot to hide out for cartels or store drugs especially, cuz his house is 2 stories I believe. He also allegedly knows the whole area like the back of his hand and knows everyone so he would’ve be the perfect person to help cartels in their movement in the area and staying hidden and holding shipments and members at his house. While he might not necessarily be in the cartel he could be getting money from them, which for him would probably be great money.
I also think that that local gang of boys was also cartel related, because the cartel often hires local gangs to do their work. Remember in the 1980s when the Tijuana cartel hired a local San Diego ca gang to kill el chapo and they killed the cardinal instead by accident. Also remember that a lot of people said Kremers was very outgoing and it looked like it from photos and accounts. My theory is 2 sort of. They were with those boys who were part of a local gang in that swimming photo. Maybe she got really friendly with them and remember men in Mexico and Central American can be very aggressive with women, as catcalling is normal there. So maybe Kremers was just outgoing and friendly and the boys took it as something it wasn’t and when the girls didn’t reciprocate the boys got butthurt. They would’ve known about their plans probably from just talking to them beforehand and remember living in a kind of small and isolated place they probably don’t have a lot of contact with women. Which might have drove them to do sick stuff. Same as the guide, living in such a remote place, surrounded by women (the German girl, the Dutch girl from the Spanish school). My theory is the boys or the guide met up with the girls far into their walk, which could explain the change of expression in the photos. And when the boys or guide kept following and nagging, they then turned aggressive and the girls attempted to run and got lost and got injured. Or they were kidnapped or any order of those. Then eventually they escaped, which is why you see those photos on the 8th. Because think about it; how could people be searching for 10 days while they were alive and not find them. Unless there was like a really small small chance that the girls were walking in the exact spot that the search party weren’t walking the entire time, so they just happened to miss each other, but that chance seems low. And also you wonder why wouldn’t the girls scream or whistle? My first instinct would be to whistle loud or scream and second would be to climb a tree and try to whistle again as sounds travel better higher up. Or see where I am. But the girls might have been injured at that point. That would explain the night photos, because if you were trying to document something you wouldn't do it at night when it’s dark at the scariest time of night. The flash was used for a reason. The two possibilities are that they heard something like an animal and wanted to shine a light but didn’t want to use their phone battery, so they used the camera. Which would explain the reason why they weren’t heard screaming, except for two incidents early on. Which could have been them screaming in captivity. And why no one found them then was because they ran away from their captors and didn’t want to alert them to where they were, but they still wanted to signal where they were cuz you wouldn’t be able to signal where you are during the day without a flare or screaming. Thus they used the flash. 
I think then the boys killed their friend Osman because they thought he was going to rat or he was like 'don’t do this guys', or felt bad about it and the others weren’t liking it. Think about it, how does a 22 year old or however old he was. Who was in the peak of his physical shape. Just walked away for a second and drowned. While it is very easy to drown, it is also very hard for someone to drown, especially someone who has grown up there their entire lives and who is used to water and that area. Someone who is also in the peak of their physical condition. Like, imagine camping and then someone saying: I’m just gonna go to the bathroom. And next thing you know they drowned. IN the middle of the disappearance of the girls, who possibly had contact with them AND being part of a local gang. Most people drown swimming to something, or to retrieve something and die of exhaustion or cold due to usually swimming farther than they thought, or getting pushed out. My theory is that the other boys were waiting for him and choked him from behind and then pushed him in or pushed him in and held his head down. Remember FBI statistics say 73%-79% of homicides are by people the person knows, whether family, friends or acquaintances and the same goes for kidnapping at 74%. This would also make sense with why the other boy died by getting hit by a car later that year. Because maybe the other boys, or whoever was involved, were paranoid they might snitch. So they made it look like an accident. The chances of drowning are 1 in 1,121. That is less than 1% of 1% and that’s an average across all age ranges. The odds of getting hit by a car which doesn’t include dying which is even lower in the UNITED STATES which also includes heavy traffic and urban areas is 1 in 4,292. It would probably be lower where the boy was, considering you would hear or see a car coming from far in that area, where people in America who get hit probably don't see or hear the car, raising the chances of getting hit. On top of that, what are the chances that 2 YOUNG boys during THIS time, who are otherwise healthy, die? Who were possibly related to these girls? It is not a coincidence. And the mother of the drowned boy said that her son was incredibly worried during those days prior to his death which would make sense with the theory that the boys abducted them for sexual reasons. It would also explain why the bras were taken off and folded nicely, as they probably had sexually assaulted them AND it would make sense then why everything was found in good condition. We don’t know for sure if those girls had their backpack on them when they were out. Maybe they ran away and it was left behind at whoever’s house or place they were being held. The guide could also be involved. It just seems really strange that his first instinct was to go to their house. Like what? If I was a tour guide and someone didn’t show up, I will just be like all right, I’m pissed you just skipped out on a tour and money, fuck you, I am going to look for new clients or continue my day. Not: let’s go to their house. For his first instinct to go to the host familie's house, he must have known they were missing and he went in their room!! All the proof he needed was to look through the window and see that they weren’t there and be done. But why would he go in the room? He could claim he was investigating, but why investigate? They weren’t pronounced missing at that point and even the host mom and the Dutch lady from the Spanish school were not that worried at first. And it was shown that evidence was tampered with in their room too. I think also that they might have been friendly with him and he got the wrong message and got butthurt and he would known what they were doing and he followed them there. He could have also been in on it with the boys. His first reaction, going into their room, and the fact that he was leading the search party and then suddenly he wants the searches to stop because it is too dangerous: it doesn’t make sense. And then he found the evidence. They always say that the killer is usually at your funeral. It sounds like he was just masquerading. What probably happened was that he knew they were never going to find them cuz he had them in his remote house so he acted like he was searching and led the party because like locals said, they scoured everywhere but no sign of them. But once they escaped he all of the sudden had a change of tone and was like: let’s stop looking for them when the Dutch got involved cuz he knew they might search his house or find them. How does someone go from wanting to find them really bad and being OK with it and complaining that he had to stop searching cuz of the Panama search team, to all asudden wanting to stop the search? All his moves were cold and Calculated. And then he later found the foot and he has a machete. What probably happened was he had the bodies and to end the case, after enough time passed, he cut the foot off and said 'see, I found it'. To put an end to it. Or they could have escaped, died, he tracked them down and that’s when he also did the same to end it cuz he didn’t want them finding other body parts that could link to the cause of death. The stats just add up that it was either him or the boys because how is he the first one on the scene and the last one at the same time, it doesn’t make sense. The only thing I’m wondering is why they didn’t round up suspects like they would in America. Maybe the police were just too stupid to be fooled, but they should’ve immediately pulled him the boys and anyone that had possible contact into custody for questioning and also getting a search warrant to search the houses of any of the top suspects. My first instinct was that it was an accident, as a lot of times people do get hurt by accident and then get stranded in these situations. But then reading into the guide and the boys changed my mind. I’m not sure exactly like what the web is but I guarantee you everyone in that little bubble is involved one Way or another in some way. Whether his dad was covering up for his son or he was also involved or so many possibilities. I guarantee somebody knows something. I tried posting this as a comment on your blog but I don’t think worked. Great job by the way! So thorough and detailed would love to know more what you think so here it my original comment. thanks and sorry for the essay."
[Scarlet] In one southern European country I have spent a lot of time, and this goes for more southern European rural areas in fact, it happened more often that local police turned a blind eye to crime committed by other locals. Specifically; I know of several 'hunting accidents' for instance, which were no accidents at all and that was common knowledge. Am not making this up or telling some strong story here, this truly happened. Some scores are settled behind closed doors in rural and more isolated places, especially when the police force there consists of locals as well, who have ties and sympathies with the people they personally know. It is not far-fetched at all to see a lot of cases be dismissed as accidents, mainly the ones that stay out of the greater media. One specific case comes to mind, a very sensitive one so I won't get too specific with the details, but I guarantee you that it is a true story. A fellow Dutchy was living in the same southern European area. He was a vagabond of sorts, a bit of a hippie living the free life. Took a fancy to a local girl, said to be a gypsy, but in truth these mountain people call people with darker features who they do not know or who keep to themselves gypsy's very easily. An equivalent of the boogeyman. So he started messing with this girl, and her brothers did not like it and were protective. Gave the Dutch guy a telling off, then threatened him. Maybe it was due to a difference of culture or just temperament, but he kept going. He was found dead at the bottom of a cliff soon after. Clearly beaten and killed. But local police considered the guy a troublemaker and concluded without further investigation that he was a drunk and had an accident. I heard this story from two sides; from the local drummings and by chance also from an elderly couple I know well, one of them being a retired judge in the NL, who knew the father of this dead Dutchman. Til this day his parents believe it was an accident and the befriended couple do know what really happened but have opted to keep this to themselves, as this news would impact the (old-age) parents too much they believe. And this is good old Europe..
Coming back to this disappearance case of Kris and Lisanne now; I honestly don't find it that far-fetched to wonder if the local Boquete police, who according to retired police chefs in the area are incapable of doing anything more than writing speeding tickets and who have one police car at their disposition... well that they may have similar reflexes perhaps. Police there consists of local people as well, who know the local community and who no doubt have their own friendships and connections to protect. If you are dealing with a police corps in a mountainous isolated region who are used to solving things in their own way, you MAY have a problem as a foreigner who meets crime abroad there. Not saying they are corrupt, but I would not rule it out either. I find it hard to say much with certainty about the different tour guides. Guide F. seems to me by far the most involved in the whole aftermath. Guide P. has given some interviews and is then said to have aired some different suspicions about foul play in private (but unfortunately for him this was said to a writer, who then published it). There are more local tour guides. I also find it very strange still that a guide who is stood up by two tourists he says he never met, would not just shrug his shoulders, curse and move on with life. The fact that he instantly suspects something is wrong, at a time when not even the girls' own host family had been worried yet, nor contacted the police or the girls' families.... well that seems strange. And to then go to their room and not be satisfied by peeking through their window and seeing they are not there? But instead also asking for the key and snooping in their private room? It can be reasoned away by some who are convinced it was all an accident by Kris and Lisanne's own makings, but that is freakish behaviour. What if they had been laying in bed with two guys they met the night before? And this old tour guide steps in their room? It is just very strange behaviour, coupled with the fact he had all day to inform the police then, but waited until the EVENING to report them missing. Like huh? Either you are so worried you cannot contain yourself and then will do anything you can to ring the bell, or you shrug your shoulders. But this is a very strange mix.
The66thPercentile wrote on February 6th, 2021"My theory is very succinct, here ya go. I’m leaning towards foul play but not because I think they weren’t lost. Because of the madness, chaos, conflicting, convoluted, dis/misinformation presented in this case. Take a deep breathe and clear your head. Think about it. If these women simply got lost and died from the elements there wouldn’t be anywhere near the amount of hooblah of information presented. Now why is there so much chaos? Simple really, the perpetrators created a labyrinth (smoke screen). It’s been used for millennium by murdered (the smarter ones) to throw off detective work. So many contradictions nobody knows wtf is going on. I’ve been fascinated with this case for years, and I have no idea what occurred, only speculation. But one thing is for sure. Kris didn’t trip over a rock and fall onto F's big machete.
Also one more clue.. and a lot of you seem to really miss this point (which I believe to be a huge key). I live in Hawaii. Not in Honolulu, not in Waikiki, but a place called Wai’anae. It’s very country and I’m surrounded by mountains just like Boqete. My neighborhood is situated right next to a mountain, which has trails for hikers and such. You can see my neighborhood from any viewpoint on the trails. But let me tell you guys something, I wouldn’t be caught EVER on the mountain at night. There aren’t any deadly animals, nothing nefarious, yet I would never ever be there at night, heck I’m scared to walk around my own house at night sometimes. But please, people.. you really need to drill this into your minds. Idk if it’s because a lot of ppl live in suburban metropolitans but the mountain is a sacred, eery, scary, beautiful place.. and it’s not somewhere you want to be when the sun sets, even if you know there aren’t any cougars roaming around. So please, stop with the “they wanted to conserve their iPhone/Samsung batteries” argument. Nope, it ain’t happening family. You do not call authorities twice and call it a night. You do everything in your soul to get the heck off that mountain (especially a foreign jungle, not situated next to a neighborhood like mine). You send texts, calls, anything even if reception isn’t connecting! Dude if I get a flat tire on the highway and have no reception I’m still going to try and call my family and help MULTIPLE times (most likely 20-40). Don’t for a second think these girls wanted to conserve iPhone batteries, so they could try again the next day around the same exact time. Please stop that guys, it’s cringey and makes us realize you aren’t analyzing this event from Lisannes and Kris’s viewpoint, but from the viewpoint of your warm cozy bed while you eat some Ben and jerries. Anyhow, maybe this wasn’t succinct. But the fact that there’s so much chaos in this case makes me believe somebody contrived a bunch of meaningless clues to throw off investigators (us and official detectives) either knowingly or unknowingly. But the fact their bodies have never been recovered, it’s extremely hard to believe they got lost."
Good post imo. Thanks to whomever linked me to it. This week I read up on some other crime cases in latin AmericaJustin Booska, an American young tourist who went to Guatamala, was perhaps considered too overtly friendly to the local people, including to the wife of a boat rental macho. Never to be seen again. But what really stood out to me is the following:
"During their search, Justins brother, Benjamin Boosk, tells the chilling details of their experience:
“The first step was to re-interview locals who were at the lake the day Justin went missing. Since day one, we have had a very difficult time getting good, consistent information from these people. We also spoke at length with the Red Cross personnel who have been onsite since the early days of the search. It quickly became very obvious to everyone, that much of what was being conveyed by the locals, did not add up.“
"Unfortunately, the locals wouldn’t comply with the family’s basic requests for information about Justin Booska. Their responses were muddled and inconsistent, a common issue that investigators face when a crime is involved. Oftentimes families cannot get clear and honest answers because locals are too scared. However, that was only the start of their problems.On the third day of searching, the family noted that the boat owner didn’t show up to permit them to use the boat they had previously rented. Instead, they were forced to utilize two smaller boats which were inadequate for the team’s expensive equipment. After searching for a while, matters took a nose dive when a search boat went to retrieve more equipment: “When they arrived they were greeted by a group of local men armed with tire irons and machetes. A very tense encounter ensued for 40 minutes, as our police escort negotiated with them. Eventually, we were allowed to continue with our search effort, but it was becoming clear that something was amiss. After 90 minutes of searching, a different piece of equipment was needed from the boat launch area, so part of the team went back across the lake to retrieve it. When they got back to the launch area, they were met by yet another group of community enforcers, who made it clear that the locals did not want us to find Justin and that it was time for us to leave. A boat was dispatched to retrieve the team members, who were still on the far side of the lake.” “The team departure from the lake was a very tense drive through many small neighborhoods, where we were warned an ambush may await us. Our police escort kept our convoy bunched very closely, reaching speeds of 145 kph (90 mph), as we made our way back to Guatemala City. Due to the incredible professionalism of our two skilled drivers and Proatur , A.Q., we arrived safely back to our hotel.”
Chris comments on this: "This behavior is rather shocking. Criminal activity in Central America usually happens in silence, mostly at night and while nobody else is watching. In this case, the community enforcers took action during the day and very publicly. This is very unusual and clearly demonstrates that an influential local was pulling strings behind the scenes. Immediately after the family received the threats from locals, the Red Cross personnel told the family that local rumors said that the boat owner himself may have been involved in the disappearance. “It was at this point, that we were informed by the Red Cross searchers, who have been investigating since the beginning, that they had heard stories during interviews, that the boat owner may have been involved in Justin’s disappearance. It seems that when Justin arrived at the lake, he was very friendly with everyone, including the boat owner’s wife.“ - "Additionally, the boat owner was the last person to speak with Justin prior to his disappearance. Justin being friendly with the boat owners wife could easily have presented a dangerous situation for Justin. Unaware foreigners visiting small Latin towns are often unaware of cultural differences until it’s too late. The family concluded their search after they were threatened. If they hadn’t ended their search, there likely would have been more foul play. Local police will not pursue a criminal case that could result in harm to themselves or their own family."
Bubbly-Past7788 wrote on January 28th, 2021"I am NOT a mystery afficianado, so I have no obsessions about this like the commenters that had sleepless nights. I am the only one [on here] that actually lives in Boquete, been on the Pianista and have skin in the game. I am at odds with probably most of the commenters. One of the witnesses that saw the Holendesas return at Casa Pedro, Pedro and a nearby tiendita proprietor talked to Lee Zeltzer. I knew Lee personally. This was reported on Boquete Guide at the time. His reports carry the highest level of trust from me. He is a person of the highest integrity. If you don't know him then you would discount that to fit your subjective narrative. My motive is justice and a safer community. I am risking my safety, because if I am found out going against the lost narrative, I could be in danger. Lastly I have had a lifelong dislike of BS. I will not point fingers or say who I know or don't know, except Lee who has passed. Lee died at home from a heart attack a few days after returning from the hospital. He was also recovered from cancer in prior years. Some think his death was unusual, I don't' know. I even went as far to research post hospital heart attacks, which aren't unusual". [As for Pitti and the authorities believing it was all an accident] "Pedro was the witness, Lee interviewed him later. I am going with my Dutch friend who was put in handcuffs while sniffer dogs check out his house, because the Holendesas had an "accident" LOL!"
Kentwillfre wrote on January 18th 2021: 'This is what losters actually believe'Kentwillfre wrote: "This is what losters actually believe - Their theories:
-After 2 attempts to call 112, the girl(s) became unwilling or unable to try again, without 3rd party involvement, until the next morning (still no reception though).
-The girls didn't try to send any text messages because, uhm, ... (please complete).
-By pure coincidence, the camera's numbering system malfunctioned right between the normal and night photos.
-While the jungle was searched, with lots of media attention and poor locals being offered $2500 for a clue on April 6, the girls were there, not kidnapped, just untraceable.
-The girls didn't leave any message explaining what had happened because, uhm, ... (please complete).
-The girls put their bras in the backpack because, uhm, ... (please complete).
-The river completely tore the skeletons of both girls apart, while it never dismembered any other dead bodies found in it.
-The backpack and its electronic and paper contents were immune to that horrible river.
-After 5 months outside in the jungle, a piece of dead skin only showed the "first signs" of decomposition.
-The prosecutor and police did a good job.
Their arguments against foul play come down to:
*A criminal would never leave money in the backpack to make it look like there was no crime.
*Foul play means a kidnapper let the girls use their phones, because nobody else can use them.
*A Panamanian who has guided tourists in the jungle his whole life, doesn't know the international emergency number 112.
*A psychopath killer would never do something as crazy as laying in the jungle for hours at night taking pictures.
*A criminal wouldn't fake such evidence because he knew it would bring worldwide attention to the case.
*There are much better ways to fake an accident:
*Pictures in daylight, with the risk of getting caught.
*Pictures of entire bodies or body parts, which would have to be moved from a house to the jungle, with the risk of getting caught.
*Forced statements by the girls, through speaking or writing. The parents wouldn't notice anything suspicious about it.
*A criminal wouldn't have to fake evidence to get the reward and go free. Without the night photos, the police would also assume it was an accident.
*There are much better ways to fake an accident:
*Pictures in daylight, with the risk of getting caught.
*Pictures of entire bodies or body parts, which would have to be moved from a house to the jungle, with the risk of getting caught.
*Forced statements by the girls, through speaking or writing. The parents wouldn't notice anything suspicious about it.
*A criminal wouldn't have to fake evidence to get the reward and go free. Without the night photos, the police would also assume it was an accident.
Power-Pixie replied: "After reading yours and several others posts, and going through my own dig through this case, I don’t think it’s a binary conclusion of either they got lost and died or that they were simply murdered. I think it is a combination of both, but that foul play was the main cause of Kris's and Lisanne's disappearance. I also find that the Panamanian way of doing things helped turn this case on its head which has left us with more questions that answers. This includes the lack of accountability and taking no responsibility to do their job properly to seek the answers. Some of this has permeated into the thinking of the Losters and their approach to this case. While some good work has come from that side, they never take on the bigger concerns. Here are some examples:- Look at the manner in which the girls crossed the border into the country that Kris described in her diary. While that is a minor detail, it gets overlooked, but it sets the tone for how things are also done in Panama. Ever seen what this crossing even looks like in photos or in descriptions by other travelers?**
- The guide interfering into the affairs of girls he doesn't know and on top of it mouthing off to the media for whatever reason. The Panamanian way might be to allow guides to do detective work and speak at will to the media, but outside of Panama the world views things very differently and with skepticism. Don't mess with the media and the general public, then Losters won't have to wonder why the guide received this type of backlash, especially when his own stories are inconsistent. Nobody held a gun to his head and made him talk.
- Pitti, or one of her team members who leaked sensitive information to the media before the parents, their detectives and lawyers even had a chance to see any of it and understand what they were up against. We know this because we all have seen these untimely news reports. Yet I've seen Losters will sometimes disregard these news reports as tabloid media with no proof, and then turn around and use some of these same reports to support their arguments.
- Miriam the host mother, and Ingrid along with her School staff not taking any responsibility but giving all kinds of conflicting information or allowing the guide and other people outside of law enforcement to interfere. Losters give them a pass because well, the girls' were not minors and knew what they were getting themselves into. So just take their money but who cares really about a couple of Gringo females.
- The daycare center's outright, last minute refusal of something that was planned months in advance. No explanations or accountability for something that the girls planned as best they could for the kind of program that was on offer. Via Scarlet's blog: "Hans Kremers, Kris' father, also stated this in a Dutch talk show: "the Spanish language school in Boquete - who had organized the volunteer work - had even sent an email on the Friday, so 3 days before they were supposed to start their volunteer work, confirming their start on the Monday*." Lisanne wrote about it in her diary: “There was not yet a place or work for us so we could not start.… The [Spanish] school thought it odd as it was all planned since months ago*.* Losters look at this, shrug, and say, well it just happens because it is the Panamanian way of doing things. Really? Ever wonder why the Spanish school, who also go with the Panamanian way thought this was odd? Maybe they should have just shrugged and said, "It happens."
I can go on but hopefully you get the point. Kris and Lisanne were not royalty, big shot businesswomen or kids, that I agree with. But just because they weren't doesn't mean the girls weren't guests of Miriam, the School and the country as a whole, who should have taken some responsibility and accountability to seek answers the proper way, and basically just do their job. Instead they spread and continue to spread disinformation when asked and Losters make excuses for them to, as Kris wrote in her diary, go the Panamanian way. And if this isn't enough, you have one major excuse for the lack of accountability and irresponsible handling of this case, coming out this April."
*Scarlet: Power-Pixie seems to refer to this diary entry from Kris:
*Scarlet: Power-Pixie seems to refer to this diary entry from Kris:
April 1st 2014
KrisMarch 16th, 2014
"The time has finally come. We are in Costa Rica. What a trip it was! 12/10 hours flying to Houston, waiting 4 hours there and then another 4 hours to San José, Costa Rica. We arrived here at the hostel around 10 o'clock, which actually felt like 4 o'clock in the morning due to the time difference. How tired we were, because we had already got up at 4 am to arrive at Schiphol airport on time, so we had been awake for 24 hours! We were picked up by a friendly little mister, together with his wife. The same man will soon pick us up again to take us to the bus. It is now around 7 o'clock in the morning. The sun was already rising around 4,5. I am writing this now in the garden of the hostel. Very cute little courtyard with many plants and a kind of fountain/altar made of mosaic. I can't wait to travel to Panama soon. I think the bus trip will be very beautiful, hopefully we will see some nice things from the country. So exciting, the journey has really begun!"
March 16, Monday (probably an error; should be March 17th)(Drawing of a sun). "It is so hot here! I really have to get used to it. It's like 30 degrees here, sitting in the sun is way too hot. I am currently in the hostel. We arrived yesterday around half past six. The bus trip was an adventure in itself. The bus trip itself went well. But first we had to speed through San José by taxi because we had no cash on us. When we got out in Sixaola, we and two locals were the only ones left. We had to just figure out for ourselves how to get to the border. The bus driver only spoke Spanish. We were sent one way and with our backpacks we really stood out among the locals. We arrived at the border, which consisted of an old bridge. It was very bizarre to cross the border that way. Once on the other side we arrived at a building where we had to pay money for a sticker on a passport (I think we were scammed). When we stood at that real immigration [checkpoint] a man approached us and asked if we had to go to Bocas. We were a bit suspicious because we didn't know very well if we could trust him. All the people were in a great hurry because they thought we would not be able to catch the last boat. For this reason we decided to just jumped in the car and hope for a happy ending. And it came. After a hellish ride where the driver was driving so fast that I didn't even dare to look, we arrived at a small stepping stone for the boat to Bocas. After about half an hour we finally arrived. After two days of traveling it felt incredibly surreal to be at the destination finally. Yesterday we also had a bite to eat but I was so tired that it didn't really get through to me. But now that I am writing this I am sitting at the bar of the Spanish school with some nice Spanish music in the background and I am starting to realize that we are really here and that we can happily enjoy this holiday. Our first Spanish lesson will start in 15 minutes. I am very curious. It is wonderful here". (drawing of 3 suns and a sailboat)
Bubbly-Past7788 replied: "The new book coming out "Lost in the Jungle" already spins the narrative with its title. Don't expect objectivity there. BTW Kris's phone log doesn't include the phone call with her boyfriend earlier on apr1, but the unconnected emergency calls are there."Heyimawitch replied: "Let's not forget that some killers want to get caught/enjoy the press' attention. Why do you think Zodiac/Jack the Ripper etc. Were so communicative? Some people just want the world to see what they've done, for whatever reason."
Experience-Superb replied: "I definitely lean more towards these girls were murdered. I'm not ruling out the lost scenario though. Its possible but given the situation I believe something sinister happened to them. I've studied serial killers as a hobby for many years and I can't believe people find it hard to believe a serial killer would not lay around his victims in the dark and take pictures for hours. There's records of serial killers even digging victims up to have sex with them. Sick but true. They dont think like we do. Who's to say there attacker couldn't of had severe mental problems as well, perhaps a reason they still could've had their phones. All this is a theory of course. Another thing I've always had a issue with is I highly doubt they both got hurt at the same exact time. I know its possible but highly unlikely. Just look at how far apart they were in the last few normal pictures. I know they could've group together to go across something difficult but USUALLY when your trying to cross something difficult you give each other space or room to do so. One at a time. Kris's shorts I find it highly unlikely they would find her shorts neatly folded in the woods. Even if she had to remove them due to injuries or going to the bathroom she most likely would've keep them nearby even just to keep warm, comfort, or cover her lap. You would definitely think they would've been in worse shape to. I could go on a hike for a day and my clothes are in horrible conditions lol. The phone logs dont add up or make sense. Nothing adds up really. Also If they were truly immobilized I highly doubt they would have survived that long as sad as it is to say. You can only go three or four days without water one of them would have been keeping them in supply of water to of lived 11 days."
Conary replied: "I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. Except for maybe the bras - I think it's not unusual that they removed them at some point and put them in the backpack. The fact that they didn't try to send text messages or call anyone could have simply been due to the fact that they didn't have international roaming turned on for their phones. I have mentioned that before and I am not sure if we know the answer. I have a feeling they relied on using Wifi only to communicate with their loved ones, using Whatsapp primarily and maybe FaceTime with Kris's phone. [Scarlet: Lisanne's parents have confirmed more than once that they also used text messages to communicate with Lisanne when she was in Panama]. We know they had Wifi at the school as well as at their house. Assuming roaming (not just data roaming, calls and texts as well) was turned off, it wouldn't have made any sense for them to attempt to call or text any of the people they knew because it would simply not go through, no matter how good your cell reception is. That being sead, I find it very strange that not more 112/911 attempts were made in the initial hours. I am sure they wanted to save their batteries and all, but as it gets dark, I can only imagine they must have been so scared. I would think they would have attempted at least a couple more calls. If not the first evening, then for sure the next morning? However, if they were both immobilized, for whatever reason, I think it would make sense that they decided to wait and conserve their batteries as the chances of an emergency call going through without changing location is slim and they might have made a plan to strategically ping 112/911 once a day just in case. Now, what I do not understand is why the search parties did not find them. That, and all the other points mentioned by OP, make absolutely no sense."
Laura wrote on January 13th 2021Laura wrote: "Sometimes I think that the real troll's target are the parents. They don't want them to believe that the girls didn't get lost because they are the only ones that could do something to reopen the case."
Juan replied: "I was told by Mary, the spokeswoman of the Dutch Justice department, that if we have any complaints.. the only one who can reopen it, is the fiscal superior in Panama.. the successor of Betzaida.. and no one else.. And that office was the first one to rush the parents out of the country... the Dutch government of course should have acted like the FBI.. not try to be friends, like that corrupt ambassador... but send a couple of men in, taking over, threaten with the hydro electric dam project.. and promise bonuses if a result was reached.. We cannot make a fist, the parents cannot make a fist, if you aren't backed by pressure behind the scenes.. Yet indeed the parents were so discouraged all the time and accepted pretty much everything of the "official" narrative, which is a travesty."
Some comments about this case on QuoraLori Anne wrote on October 14th, 2020: "I've been watching videos of missing people in national parks and somehow yesterday, I landed on this subject. As I was watching the video and saw the red head, Kris, I instantly thought of pics I had seen of this girl on the internet. It's been quite awhile ago now, but I really think there is a possibility it could have been her. The memory of it has faded quite a bit but I remember her facial features to be similiar, wearing a tank and that same red hair. At first we thought it was just some pics that were staged, but as we looked at them, the girl in the pics obviously was truly upset and terrified. I wish I could remember it better. In some of the pics she seemed tied up on either a flat rock..I do remember the girl looking like Kris. Several tribal men, barely dressed were standing around her, some were laughing. It made me sick. We were looking up images of people being tied up, and that's how we landed on them. We thought the pics would probably lead to a porn site so we didn't click on them…I wished I hadn't seen those. She looked so miserable. These pics looked so real and these tribal men looked authentic. So here is this girl being tortured in another country somewhere. How did she get there and who is she? So I forgot about the pics until now, after reading this story. [..] These men in the pics I saw did not look like they carry cell phones; they probably knew little about cell phone or the internet. So I am now wondering, is there any chance this was the same redhead? I know they looked alike and this poor girl was captured by some kind of tribal men who had her lying down, them standing around laughing.
I'm
wondering if these girls had been set up by someone? What if whoevers
job it was to take pics of the acts eventually left, leaving the women with
this tribe? A trade off? If the girls still had their phones… the
tribesmen wouldn't think of taking their phones away at first so they
could have kept trying to dial for help. Then one of the tribal people
started playing with the phones taking pics to see how it worked? I just
know that porn and sex trafficing is like dealing drugs. You have some
high up thug sitting around making all the money hiring other thugs
to pull crap like this off. There are evil people out there, out to make
money. Someone needs to secretly start taking these people out. They
dont care who they hurt including babies and children. Again, I just
started looking into this yesterday…and the only reason I really became
intrigued by this story is because I think there is a huge possibility that Kris is the same girl I saw in those pics. If it is…it was probably a
set up from the very start. Anyone dealing in the drug or porn industry
is dangerous. There could have been one or a lot of people involved in
this. . Something isn't right here. [..]"
Sophie wrote on December 1st 2020: "Hi! I strongly believe they were kidnapped also! Its pretty clear if you get into all the facts, so I agree! Do you remember how you get to the site with those pictures? Did you seek 'tied up' in images on Google? Can you tell me anything of how you found that picture? Because I really think it's important to find this picture if it is still out there (if the picture is of her). I think they kidnapped those girls for trafficking. Best regards, Sophie"
Taylor Thomas wrote on October 28th 2020: "100%
murdered. The scenario where one of them falls and the other stays with her is fine, right up until you get to the missing photo and the fact
that the backpack was found in mint condition as were the contents
inside, including both snacks and water which were not eaten. You’re
telling me these girls went out with enough provisions for a 4 hour hike,
but still had snacks and water 10–11 days later? Not only that, the
backpack was placed where someone knew it would be found by someone who
was so familiar with the area, she noted it was most certainly not there
the day before. This would have had to have been someone extremely
familiar with either that little village or the movements of women in
particular. No “last message” to anyone despite having two phones and
a camera. Remains found in two separate places, upstream no less.
Perfectly severed foot from leg and no blood on show that was still
perfectly tied. Jean shorts perfectly folded on a rock. I think it’s
pretty obvious. A predator did this, but it was no animal. A human did
it. And whomever did it has been doing it for a very long time. I am 99%
sure they were murdered and it wasn’t by an Indigenous tribesman. They
would’ve also had to have been somewhat tech savvy to know to delete
photos permanently and even be smart enough to know that deleting them via
the camera wouldn’t have been enough. Presumably someone who is more
educated than the average Panamanian villager. Given all of this, it
makes me wonder what the background is of the people who they rode along with in
the taxi."
Tyler L. wrote on June 8, 2020: "Here is what I think happened, my intuitive and logical reasoning: There were a few events at play here. Whether they were all connected, I do not know.
-They were followed in the woods, by someone (I sense at least two men); perhaps not directly followed but these men knew where they were headed and were watching them, they were targeted. I feel their intent was malicious, they were planning to either rob, sexual assault, murder if necessary, it may have been all three or just one.
-Something startled the girls in the woods: natural wildlife, force of nature, or the stalking men, or another human in the area (accidentally or intentionally), I’m not sure of this either, but I feel this fear struck into the girl lasted for a little while (this very well could be the nervous look on the last clear photo). What was scaring them got worse and they ran... One of them tripped and fell into the river ravine and was badly injured. Her friend followed and gave aid. They tried to call for help to no avail.
- Someone else or the two stalking men later found them there and murdered them. Then proceeded to make it look like an accidental death.
-As heartbreaking and monstrous it is, I feel she was dead when the photo of the top of her head was taken.
I hope someone can come forward one day knowing what happened or new evidence is found, their families deserve closure!"
Bryn B. wrote on September 18 2020: "Evidence of murder: Bleached bones with evidence of being dissolved in lime. Dog returning home that they could have easily followed home. 911 calls to throw off the trail but if they were real they would have sent text messages once they realized service was poor UNLESS someone or something prevented them from sending texts physically. The one person who found all the pieces of bones with no animal marks or any evidence of how they died. Other serial murders in the area. I mean how many breadcrumbs do you need? [In response to someone spouting PC talk that nobody should just assume that the perpetrators were men and not women] Sorry but if two pretty girls get melted by lime I’m not going to suspect another female of it. That speaks more to me of sexual assault and a coverup of the resulting evidence. It could be a female, sure, but it just seems much more unlikely."
Juraj Brando answered on November 18: "They were murdered by a man, probably raped and then eaten. There were only calls from the phone, but no turning back, the foot wasn't eaten. This means they were trying to contact the world, but there was someone else that was controling them. They did not used the food. After he killed them, the leftovers were handed back to the authorities. There was a story in Russia about the Dyatlov pass incident. This incident describes how bodies look after these people got lost and had an accident. You won't find their personal belongings, you won't find their shorts, skin, and photos of them taken by somebody else. It's naive to think it was an accident. With bleached bones, the separated clean bones mean that their bodies were decapitated. They have found clean shorts which were folded later. Which means they were probably naked, when they were torn apart, or eaten. Parts of their bodies were found all over the place. The found skin suggest that the body was kept in a dry, safe enviroment, away from the sun. Basically a shed, or a different type of a storage space."
Renee J. answered on August 17, 2019: "They got lost off the trail, then an accident happened. While Froon was trying to get to Kremers or to leave the area after Kremers died, she then injured herself. The backpack was thrown across the river to keep it dry before or when she was getting ready to be washed downstream. That is why the bones were downstream and the back pack was dry. Or one fell off the monkey bridge and a photo was taken, sort of like a dangerous selfie, and it was upsetting so it was deleted. The other girl went into the wilderness to rescue the friend who washed downstream, hurting herself in the process. She was able to come to the bridge to leave at least some markers in hopes they would be found. By the time the friend died, the remaining one likely Froon was in a weakened state. The bras will cause a rash in heat and that is why they were removed. If my bra is damp in the summer from swimming or sweat, I get a rash under the center. My guess is they removed them because of that. Or they were deliberately stalked or later met the wrong person after an accident and that person faked the photos so that it would look like they got lost. Or they were forced further into the wilderness by the wrong person and the photos faked. The killer(s) could have let them have their phones to keep them calmer also at the same time knowing that they would not be able to get service. It sort of looked like someone fell at one point and the camera was used to get a view of what was below or someone was wanting to climb the rocks and that person needed to see where the best path was to get there. The order of the photos taken would be more telling of what happened. The black photos could have occurred in the backpack as the surviving girl tried to get to her friend. [..] They could have seen something in the distance and tried to travel at night leading to the accident. I think the red bags on the stick could have been a marker or it was used to catch fresh rainwater for drinkingThe odd pic of Kremers walking and bending looks unusual in that her hands are not behind her back but in a position that is almost like arms up as in a don’t shoot me stance. If you look closely her elbow is at her side and hand near the face and neck. She could have been brushing away a bug or vine but her expression is no longer a happy one. Usually I get an idea about a case as to what likely happened but this one makes no sense. Normally a person would know they are in a dangerous place to be more careful and not get into an accident, even if you do happen to get lost your feet are the way out. Basically don’t fall break an ankle, or bust your head. Even if you do get lost if rough terrain, you want to be especially careful not to get hurt. So this does not make sense. One little mishap however could lead to more unfortunate events. The photos lead to the thought of getting lost and into an accident, while the scientific evidence makes one wonder if a killer was involved. This one keeps me up at night, so if anyone has answers let me know. Very sad that two full of life and smiling girls got themselves into so much trouble that day, even if it was a third party".
Jeremy N. wrote on April 25, 2020: "El Pianista — this trail is north and south trail with no trails that run into
it past mirador it is remarkably more 
steep depending on weather
you may or may not be able too return that way. Facts:
● April 1st the set out on the fatal hike
● They left in questionable attire
● Minimal water and food
● Hours into the hike frantic 911 calls
● Mirador has reception
● North and south trail with no exits off the 1 path
● They informed atleast the host family of the trek didn't elaborate on the plans
● April 1st the last normal photo was taken
● Uncertainty on kris face in several pictures 1 picture shows kris focusing past the photographer
● No cliffs or slopes
● Survived a unreasonable amount of time 11 days
● Minutes after passing local guides houses they phoned 911/112
● Between 1am to 4am the camera rapidly flashes
● Unreleased photos autopsy reports
● Minimal bones are found
Fairly straight forward trail and being actually lost isn't possible unless the girls failed to research the trail which may have led them to believe they were lost. Hours prior to the first 911 call, they seem to be looking at something unexpected walking up the trail, around the last river crossing. Kris has a look of uncertainty or bewilderment, as if they have an uninvited guest with them. Unsuccessful emergency calls (frantic) 70 in total. Next photo isn't until April 8th. 90 photos, you can see the pianista trail on these pictures. After April 1st they hide their faces from the camera? Lisanne Froon was never pictured further on the trail? The last 3 pictures are shot from a greater distance than the rest? Photo 509 was manually deleted possibly with a computer, since it was not retrievable. Could have been a crucial picture too, telling us what happened. Camera glitch? All investigators agreed on 1 thing: they could not lose there way on this trail. They call this a unforgiving jungle, but this isn't the case. People live in these woods. A lot of houses could be seen on the trail, they would be passing right between 2. Why did they not turn back?
Where's the logic, why didn't the women seek higher ground for a signal? There are cell towers, one is owned by a local news, they can make calls from the mirador. Did someone receive a minor injury, climbing the mirador or while traversing the steep incline on the other side of the trail? This could be a stinger they possibly would just ignore it, thinking it was a strain… Although I try to believe the hiking accident scenario, I cannot. I've hiked this trail myself, this isn't harsh terrain or difficult navigation. As a matter of fact, I went past the mirador. I made it to where they presumably were when the first emergency call was made. It's clear there, you know where you have to go. These girls would not have voluntary gone this far. There were no visable cliffs; no way of falling off a trail and injuring yourself. And if they had, then Sinaproc would have found them. They went past there. This point of the trail isn't in normal jungle conditions: it's more like a forrested region.
My theory: Kris was posing for a picture and saw someone on that trail. They let them pass. Maybe he passed and hid. That would whipe a smile off anyone's face. Possibly at the creek crossing, Kris seems unhappy, or maybe worried thqt the 3rd party seemed to join them? Is lisanne Froon really taking all these pictures? 90 photo's in the dark, from 1am to 4am, what could have happened to cause this… very excessive amount of pictures? Are they in a makeshift camp in the riverbed and did they start firing pictures to see if an animal was near? Cougars, jaguars, Sloth bears inhabit the region. However those pictures told a differnt story, it wasn't an animal, it was a man pictured with the camera held sideways, it shows a figure on a bank walking away from 1 of the girls, who is standing up. This isn't them looking up or down from a ravine. The camera was not level… Could this man have tricked these girls? Were they lost? Did they ask for direction? I'm sure they probably hid when they saw the picture. Maybe they ran to there deaths, maybe a tree dropped on Lisanne when they set up camp? These photos were taken to throw off any investigation. Nothing being stolen could lend to a sex crime, however any killer knows if they take a stolen phone, they can be caught. There is no evidence of any fall or any animal attack. No disheveled area; animal attacks often leave blood and hair at the scene of the attack…. Everytime I look at their last daylight photo, my stomach gets upset. There is something very odd happening here. Neither girls could last 11 days, maybe 4 to 7, so who operated the cameras on day 11? After they were lost, they stopped using their phones as cameras. Why this change? Because a perpetrator couldn't access their pin and the camera did not require one. I can't say exactly what the scenerio was, but whomever these girls met on that trail, was more than likley the perpetrator. Panama and even boquete isn't worth visiting for white people, they hate gringos. You go alone and you will have issues. This I truly believe. Phosphorus was given as an explanation for the bone bleaching, this is volcanic soil. But phosphorus is not present in the soil. The weirdest part: the fot in Lisanne's boot and the land near the bone recovery had globs of flesh, well above the bank… no predation marks on any of the bones and no marks consistent with being dragged down the river."
Sophie wrote on December 1st 2020: "Hi! I strongly believe they were kidnapped also! Its pretty clear if you get into all the facts, so I agree! Do you remember how you get to the site with those pictures? Did you seek 'tied up' in images on Google? Can you tell me anything of how you found that picture? Because I really think it's important to find this picture if it is still out there (if the picture is of her). I think they kidnapped those girls for trafficking. Best regards, Sophie"
Taylor Thomas wrote on October 28th 2020: "100%
murdered. The scenario where one of them falls and the other stays with her is fine, right up until you get to the missing photo and the fact
that the backpack was found in mint condition as were the contents
inside, including both snacks and water which were not eaten. You’re
telling me these girls went out with enough provisions for a 4 hour hike,
but still had snacks and water 10–11 days later? Not only that, the
backpack was placed where someone knew it would be found by someone who
was so familiar with the area, she noted it was most certainly not there
the day before. This would have had to have been someone extremely
familiar with either that little village or the movements of women in
particular. No “last message” to anyone despite having two phones and
a camera. Remains found in two separate places, upstream no less.
Perfectly severed foot from leg and no blood on show that was still
perfectly tied. Jean shorts perfectly folded on a rock. I think it’s
pretty obvious. A predator did this, but it was no animal. A human did
it. And whomever did it has been doing it for a very long time. I am 99%
sure they were murdered and it wasn’t by an Indigenous tribesman. They
would’ve also had to have been somewhat tech savvy to know to delete
photos permanently and even be smart enough to know that deleting them via
the camera wouldn’t have been enough. Presumably someone who is more
educated than the average Panamanian villager. Given all of this, it
makes me wonder what the background is of the people who they rode along with in
the taxi."Tyler L. wrote on June 8, 2020: "Here is what I think happened, my intuitive and logical reasoning: There were a few events at play here. Whether they were all connected, I do not know.
-They were followed in the woods, by someone (I sense at least two men); perhaps not directly followed but these men knew where they were headed and were watching them, they were targeted. I feel their intent was malicious, they were planning to either rob, sexual assault, murder if necessary, it may have been all three or just one.
-Something startled the girls in the woods: natural wildlife, force of nature, or the stalking men, or another human in the area (accidentally or intentionally), I’m not sure of this either, but I feel this fear struck into the girl lasted for a little while (this very well could be the nervous look on the last clear photo). What was scaring them got worse and they ran... One of them tripped and fell into the river ravine and was badly injured. Her friend followed and gave aid. They tried to call for help to no avail.
- Someone else or the two stalking men later found them there and murdered them. Then proceeded to make it look like an accidental death.
-As heartbreaking and monstrous it is, I feel she was dead when the photo of the top of her head was taken.
I hope someone can come forward one day knowing what happened or new evidence is found, their families deserve closure!"
Bryn B. wrote on September 18 2020: "Evidence of murder: Bleached bones with evidence of being dissolved in lime. Dog returning home that they could have easily followed home. 911 calls to throw off the trail but if they were real they would have sent text messages once they realized service was poor UNLESS someone or something prevented them from sending texts physically. The one person who found all the pieces of bones with no animal marks or any evidence of how they died. Other serial murders in the area. I mean how many breadcrumbs do you need? [In response to someone spouting PC talk that nobody should just assume that the perpetrators were men and not women] Sorry but if two pretty girls get melted by lime I’m not going to suspect another female of it. That speaks more to me of sexual assault and a coverup of the resulting evidence. It could be a female, sure, but it just seems much more unlikely."
Juraj Brando answered on November 18: "They were murdered by a man, probably raped and then eaten. There were only calls from the phone, but no turning back, the foot wasn't eaten. This means they were trying to contact the world, but there was someone else that was controling them. They did not used the food. After he killed them, the leftovers were handed back to the authorities. There was a story in Russia about the Dyatlov pass incident. This incident describes how bodies look after these people got lost and had an accident. You won't find their personal belongings, you won't find their shorts, skin, and photos of them taken by somebody else. It's naive to think it was an accident. With bleached bones, the separated clean bones mean that their bodies were decapitated. They have found clean shorts which were folded later. Which means they were probably naked, when they were torn apart, or eaten. Parts of their bodies were found all over the place. The found skin suggest that the body was kept in a dry, safe enviroment, away from the sun. Basically a shed, or a different type of a storage space."
Renee J. answered on August 17, 2019: "They got lost off the trail, then an accident happened. While Froon was trying to get to Kremers or to leave the area after Kremers died, she then injured herself. The backpack was thrown across the river to keep it dry before or when she was getting ready to be washed downstream. That is why the bones were downstream and the back pack was dry. Or one fell off the monkey bridge and a photo was taken, sort of like a dangerous selfie, and it was upsetting so it was deleted. The other girl went into the wilderness to rescue the friend who washed downstream, hurting herself in the process. She was able to come to the bridge to leave at least some markers in hopes they would be found. By the time the friend died, the remaining one likely Froon was in a weakened state. The bras will cause a rash in heat and that is why they were removed. If my bra is damp in the summer from swimming or sweat, I get a rash under the center. My guess is they removed them because of that. Or they were deliberately stalked or later met the wrong person after an accident and that person faked the photos so that it would look like they got lost. Or they were forced further into the wilderness by the wrong person and the photos faked. The killer(s) could have let them have their phones to keep them calmer also at the same time knowing that they would not be able to get service. It sort of looked like someone fell at one point and the camera was used to get a view of what was below or someone was wanting to climb the rocks and that person needed to see where the best path was to get there. The order of the photos taken would be more telling of what happened. The black photos could have occurred in the backpack as the surviving girl tried to get to her friend. [..] They could have seen something in the distance and tried to travel at night leading to the accident. I think the red bags on the stick could have been a marker or it was used to catch fresh rainwater for drinkingThe odd pic of Kremers walking and bending looks unusual in that her hands are not behind her back but in a position that is almost like arms up as in a don’t shoot me stance. If you look closely her elbow is at her side and hand near the face and neck. She could have been brushing away a bug or vine but her expression is no longer a happy one. Usually I get an idea about a case as to what likely happened but this one makes no sense. Normally a person would know they are in a dangerous place to be more careful and not get into an accident, even if you do happen to get lost your feet are the way out. Basically don’t fall break an ankle, or bust your head. Even if you do get lost if rough terrain, you want to be especially careful not to get hurt. So this does not make sense. One little mishap however could lead to more unfortunate events. The photos lead to the thought of getting lost and into an accident, while the scientific evidence makes one wonder if a killer was involved. This one keeps me up at night, so if anyone has answers let me know. Very sad that two full of life and smiling girls got themselves into so much trouble that day, even if it was a third party".
Jeremy N. wrote on April 25, 2020: "El Pianista — this trail is north and south trail with no trails that run into
it past mirador it is remarkably more 
steep depending on weather
you may or may not be able too return that way. Facts:● April 1st the set out on the fatal hike
● They left in questionable attire
● Minimal water and food
● Hours into the hike frantic 911 calls
● Mirador has reception
● North and south trail with no exits off the 1 path
● They informed atleast the host family of the trek didn't elaborate on the plans
● April 1st the last normal photo was taken
● Uncertainty on kris face in several pictures 1 picture shows kris focusing past the photographer
● No cliffs or slopes
● Survived a unreasonable amount of time 11 days
● Minutes after passing local guides houses they phoned 911/112
● Between 1am to 4am the camera rapidly flashes
● Unreleased photos autopsy reports
● Minimal bones are found
Fairly straight forward trail and being actually lost isn't possible unless the girls failed to research the trail which may have led them to believe they were lost. Hours prior to the first 911 call, they seem to be looking at something unexpected walking up the trail, around the last river crossing. Kris has a look of uncertainty or bewilderment, as if they have an uninvited guest with them. Unsuccessful emergency calls (frantic) 70 in total. Next photo isn't until April 8th. 90 photos, you can see the pianista trail on these pictures. After April 1st they hide their faces from the camera? Lisanne Froon was never pictured further on the trail? The last 3 pictures are shot from a greater distance than the rest? Photo 509 was manually deleted possibly with a computer, since it was not retrievable. Could have been a crucial picture too, telling us what happened. Camera glitch? All investigators agreed on 1 thing: they could not lose there way on this trail. They call this a unforgiving jungle, but this isn't the case. People live in these woods. A lot of houses could be seen on the trail, they would be passing right between 2. Why did they not turn back?
Where's the logic, why didn't the women seek higher ground for a signal? There are cell towers, one is owned by a local news, they can make calls from the mirador. Did someone receive a minor injury, climbing the mirador or while traversing the steep incline on the other side of the trail? This could be a stinger they possibly would just ignore it, thinking it was a strain… Although I try to believe the hiking accident scenario, I cannot. I've hiked this trail myself, this isn't harsh terrain or difficult navigation. As a matter of fact, I went past the mirador. I made it to where they presumably were when the first emergency call was made. It's clear there, you know where you have to go. These girls would not have voluntary gone this far. There were no visable cliffs; no way of falling off a trail and injuring yourself. And if they had, then Sinaproc would have found them. They went past there. This point of the trail isn't in normal jungle conditions: it's more like a forrested region.
My theory: Kris was posing for a picture and saw someone on that trail. They let them pass. Maybe he passed and hid. That would whipe a smile off anyone's face. Possibly at the creek crossing, Kris seems unhappy, or maybe worried thqt the 3rd party seemed to join them? Is lisanne Froon really taking all these pictures? 90 photo's in the dark, from 1am to 4am, what could have happened to cause this… very excessive amount of pictures? Are they in a makeshift camp in the riverbed and did they start firing pictures to see if an animal was near? Cougars, jaguars, Sloth bears inhabit the region. However those pictures told a differnt story, it wasn't an animal, it was a man pictured with the camera held sideways, it shows a figure on a bank walking away from 1 of the girls, who is standing up. This isn't them looking up or down from a ravine. The camera was not level… Could this man have tricked these girls? Were they lost? Did they ask for direction? I'm sure they probably hid when they saw the picture. Maybe they ran to there deaths, maybe a tree dropped on Lisanne when they set up camp? These photos were taken to throw off any investigation. Nothing being stolen could lend to a sex crime, however any killer knows if they take a stolen phone, they can be caught. There is no evidence of any fall or any animal attack. No disheveled area; animal attacks often leave blood and hair at the scene of the attack…. Everytime I look at their last daylight photo, my stomach gets upset. There is something very odd happening here. Neither girls could last 11 days, maybe 4 to 7, so who operated the cameras on day 11? After they were lost, they stopped using their phones as cameras. Why this change? Because a perpetrator couldn't access their pin and the camera did not require one. I can't say exactly what the scenerio was, but whomever these girls met on that trail, was more than likley the perpetrator. Panama and even boquete isn't worth visiting for white people, they hate gringos. You go alone and you will have issues. This I truly believe. Phosphorus was given as an explanation for the bone bleaching, this is volcanic soil. But phosphorus is not present in the soil. The weirdest part: the fot in Lisanne's boot and the land near the bone recovery had globs of flesh, well above the bank… no predation marks on any of the bones and no marks consistent with being dragged down the river."
How reliable are the sources in the Kris and Lisanne investigation? Plus: mirador photos of the girls and the Movement of Clouds
Queendaria wrote on December 18th 2020: I feel a little ridiculed. "Asked very stupidly: Why have people been trying for years to prove that Kris and Lisanne did not get lost and did not fall from the monkey bridge, although this has not been an issue since May 2015, if it ever was? Why do certain circles still speak of "Losters"? Why don't JJ and Kinga go into the official scenario for Lost in the Wild? If you look at where JJ and Kinga got their information from, everything is pretty much clear ... but they could have just checked it. My conclusion: all internet detectives (including myself) refer to a few sources, these sources have been cited over and over again. So many things suddenly became facts that are not. Don't be ridiculous, but I'm afraid you will continue to wash money into the coffers of those who (want to) earn money with shit. Bye."
Hubby233 replied: "A few sources, yeh. Shall we name them?
-Adelita Coriat, incredible journalist who actually was in Boquete doing her research and not in the Netherlands like some authors who have come on here recently. Risked her life reporting on this case and was present during autopsies and all that. A coroner who has to remain anonymous for his own safety. Let that sink in please.
-Jeremy Kryt. Went to Panama himself, did his own research. Spoke to witnesses and guides. Went about very thoroughly.
-Arrocha, lawyer of Kremers fam who had access to all the legal documents, papers test results and the lot. - And as for the sources for the accident scenario, we have Betzaida Pitti. You stick with her. But nobody should dare to belittle people like Coriat. Certainly no armchair detectives."
Power-pixie wrote on December 18th 2020 about the investigation being possibly bothed: "I’m sorry, but what do you know about the investigation that makes you think it was botched? I see how it would make sense what you are saying so maybe listen to the people who were there and experienced this first hand to see their first impressions. These are not users like you and me using 2nd hand information. Some of them were directly involved and have a better understanding of the things that the police report does and will never show. See this video. The following people are on it:
-Okke Ornstein, a radio show host who lives in Panama and goes to Boquete including hiking the Pianista trail to see for himself and relates it.
-The lady who hosted Lisanne’s brother and relatives at her home in Boquete, and was part of the group who hired their own private detective when they realized the local police were not doing much and were simply out of their depth.
-The Dutch Ambassador, Wiede de Boer.
-Erik Westra, living in Boquete, who is a retired Royal military police with a career in teaching locating techniques and dealings with IRA terrorists.
-Guide F.
-Writer and Journalist, Guillermo Sanchez Borbon.
-Spokesperson for the families, Jerome van Passel.
You can come to your own conclusions and dismiss all of them, but these individuals were there, and did see what was going on. They tried to base it on their own experiences and also helped out. Much better position than you or I. There is a reason the parents hired a lawyer and also their own detectives, and if you actually read all of the information that is for example on the Answers for Kris blog [and facebook page], which was being updated as the case unfolded, you'd get the impression from the parents that things did not go as smoothly and there were many issues. You can paint it all black and white and use some police report as gospel. Just because someone wrote it doesn't mean it is correct or was properly researched or that it wasn't revised to fit a certain narrative. Are you going to challenge this if you had serious doubts about it? If you don't wish to see that, it's okay. You have some valid points from the perspective of someone who has never visited Panama or lived there, like most of us. But don't try to tell others what we can and cannot infer from our own look into this case as we are all not naive or that stupid either."
MarjaW wrote: "Why would someone believe everything that's written in the newspaper, or shown on television? Main stream journalism, by far, proved they go for the scoops, not for the info. [..] Somehow you, and a lot of people, seem to think mean stream news tells the truth, while most of you must no that's not the case at all."
Power-pixie replied: "Your whole attempt and intentions along with the publisher and Pitti, with this book without the support of the parents seems very strange and in poor taste.
Power-pixie replied: "I had worked on as many issues from the pre-backpack days only to get a sense of what the girls were like through their diaries. Amazing that some on here argued for days even after pointing out facts the girls themselves wrote down, but you know how it goes sometimes. I don't have a guilty party or anything of that sort and often times I'm taken to task over bringing up guide F, when he's the one that keeps popping up due to his own means. I just collect information for now. As for the remains, the most confusing one for me is the ball of skin. A guide found it. How did he know it was a human ball of skin lying in the dirt of the jungle? Were there no leaves covering it or stones? How did he know it was human skin? Did he unroll it to check to be sure? And that after 5 months it was in an early stage of decomposition according to the statements of the forensic examiner. The backpack is another one, but you have made mention my doubts. When I try to play the scenarios in my head and look at the photos, I'm not convinced of their timeline. Something seems off and their pattern of taking photographs based on all the photos since they arrived doesn't make sense. Like some photos are missing for some reason, nevermind 509. I also wondered about one of their excursions in Bocas since I scoured their diaries and worked backwards and unless the parents felt they needed to withhold photos for privacy reasons, none of those events are documented through their photos which I find very odd and I think may also have been deleted for some reason. Thanks for reading and your input."
"I'm having trouble with the "creating an alternative timeline by manipulating the photo's" theory". - "I had a problem with the metadata not the manipulation of the images themselves. That to some extent would be a massive undertaking in itself. The summit photos are not in the correct order based on the metadata times that were posted. Photo 499 and 500 coupled with photos of Kris using her iphone don't add up in terms of the amount of time it would take to make those photographs given their positions and having to move around on the Mirador. Remember that when we are trying to simulate a photo taking procedure we have a different context, whereas the girls were casually taking them for fun not running around in an Olympic sprint to prove a point on here. So they would take their time I would imagine to take photographs especially after they just hiked up for two hours in the hot sun. I also realized that it may have been slightly less than 6 seconds between the two photos. 499 created at 1:01:38 while photo 500 created at 1:30:44. To click the button it would take about 0.5 or slightly less of a second to initiate the creation of each photo. Creation by camera and time stamp may be separate procedures or one and the same, it is still recorded that way. So this bothered me because then you have to factor in Kris's iphone photo as well and where she is standing. One clue for this that stuck out for me, is the moving cloud in their thumbs up selfie, Kris's iphone photo and Lisanne's 499 photo. Look at the ridge of the mountain, there is a patch on the ridge of the mountain, and you can see the cloud cover it up as it moves. Depends on the direction, you will see it either emerge/form or dissipate. However I was using the thumbs up selfie as a starting point only because this was what I had to work with unless you know what the correct metadata is? This isn't paredolia mind you. I try to stay away from photos if I can, but these particular ones stuck out for me and I typically will get into Photoshop to prove to myself first to see if this makes sense. 'Deleting a photo like 509, now that I can believe you do when you know it contains something incriminating'. - "Yes, and so can other photos depending on what those photos were. Hence why I went back to Bocas to scour through everything to see if there wasn't anything that might have seemed odd. One excursion in particular was the dolphin/sloth/mangrove/body boarding/boatride to zapatilla island. The girls mention some guy named Davis, and I suppose he may have taken those long shots of them or maybe some other tourist or someone took them. However my notes of this excursion is just something that makes me wonder a little more about why there are missing photos, the obvious ones at least. If you wish to learn more then I'll send you the link to my post that has notes about this. SpentFabric was also looking into this as we had a sidebar and wondered if this case or cover cup had bigger implications and perhaps while everybody's looking at their grandma's undies in the night photos maybe we should try checking those snaps and diaries from Costa Rica and Bocas. ;)
tobmcfish replied: "The thing with the weather conditions that seem to change can only be explaine with a wrong order. The pictures without clouds on the way there, the ones with clouds on the way back. Here it would again fit exactly into the timing. Apparently there was a TimeStamp problem anyway due to the camera bug. Pic 508 contains 3 time stamps in the binary string, 19:54:50; 19:54:58; 19:54:50. Correct would be 19:55:00 (ASCII-HEX). [..] We don't know to what extent the order we know is correct. It would be good to know whether the pictures needed to be restored or whether the SD card was completely undamaged. The metadata of the images available to us are correct, but it is exactly the metadata of THESE images."
indiansummer5 replied: "If the timestamps are correct one photo shows Lisanne at the top with clear blue skies and the next photo follows after something like 8 seconds and it's overcast??"
Power-pixie replied: "I don't trust the timestamps. There is no reason for them to be scurrying around trying to take a photo under 6 seconds when you consider what goes into creating the photograph 500 with the canon powershot camera. This my common sense approach. So maybe it was a mistake by whoever was looking into photo 500. Photo 500 could have been shot a few minutes later, which I would accept, just not under 6 seconds. The movement of clouds also depends on what direction too. It is seems to me from this basic montage video of scaled photos, it is moving from left to right. I purposely did not try to alter each photo other than it's scale to match certain parts of the background (ridge of the mountain, patchs of cleared land on the ridge) to try and come as close to a match of these features. I did consider many factors like photographer's height, distance to subject, angle of the camera, focal length used if both iPhone and Canon were used. Is the rest of the overcast sky moving diagonally towards Kris and Lisanne? If they waited another 30 minutes on the Mirador in the same position as Photo 499 what would they see in terms of cloud movement? I think one clue is Kris's (iPhone photo) in this video montage. the clouds have appeared and is covering her and Lisanne at this point, but the background cloud has moved very slowly if my sequence is correct. I also did not note any obvious cloud coverage or overcast sky in Photo 505, 507 and 508, nor any sign of rain since they descended from the Mirador.
Blaiyzettv replied: "By all accounts of locals and officials, the weather, especially into the mountains and at the mirador, change quickly and drastically. It’s the same where I live. We have a saying here, if you don’t like the weather, wait 5 minutes. We’ve gone from a completely warm, beautiful day not a cloud in the sky, to literally 10 minutes later torrential downpour, sky filled with grey clouds, rains for 15-20 minutes and clears right up. So it’s quite likely, given all info sourced about the location, and by looks of how windy it potentially was (their hair), it’s quite likely the clouds were clipping along quite fast."
Power-pixie replied: "Yes, microclimate weather is somewhat unpredictable. The clouds also form and dissipate rapidly into swirling mists. And wind plays a factor on the direction of these clouds as well. I'm not an expert so I have to rely on basic videos to learn about stuff like this. :) While we can see from the photos on the Mirador and get a general idea of direction of cloud movement, could the rest of movement of the clouds (overcast sky in photo 500 and photo of Kris in same position as Lisanne in 500) be moving diagonally? I also ask this, because I did not note any obvious cloud coverage or overcast sky in Photo 505, 507 and 508, nor any sign of rain since they descended from the Mirador, which, according to Kris's parents' hiking video, takes about 45 minutes or so to the first stream. The dirt/mud on Kris's shorts and legs could be from a slip, or just mud (back) splash or it could be cow dung, since we see cattle crossing the paths of Kris's parents' hiking video.'
Tbones111 replied: "With all due respect, the investigation was shit. There is enough info out there for people to form their own opinions and those opinions cannot be called right or wrong. The fact of the matter is the Panamanian government reached their conclusion and closed their case based on “possibilities”. You think they have been sitting on info that would help their case in the public eye all these years? I don’t. [..] I understand where you are coming from but, for instance, regarding the ball of skin: a well known reporter was present when it arrived and was examined and she could not understand how or why someone would think to pick this up based on what it looked like thinking it had anything to do with the girls. Also, an expert who examined it has gone on record saying its condition makes no sense. These are facts. You are right, there is a ton of conflicting info but facts are facts."
tobmcfish replied: "After I was initially very surprised that the weather should have changed so quickly, I looked at it again. Don't forget that we have different perspectives. Kris is e.g. significantly smaller and thus covers a completely different perspective, she has to tilt the camera slightly. The mountains in the background can only be used to a limited extent for "calibration", depth of field etc., aligned with the plants in the foreground it no longer looks like a change in the weather."
Power-pixie replied: "Thanks. I wasn't referring to the weather, just the moving clouds. I use the patches on the ridge to figure this out as the shadow of the leading cloud moves ever so slightly. As for the camera lenses, yes I agree with you both should be unique since they have different focal lengths, shot at slightly different distances. For this video I used the 4 photos as is without trying to distort them and aligned them as close as I could match them. I left out the others as I'm not sure about the timing of what I consider to be less than 6 seconds if you factor in every millisecond for every aspect that goes into creating a timestamped image with this camera. Technicalities aside, my question is - What was the hurry to run around taking images so quickly, after hiking for nearly 2 hours to get to the top? I've seen enough videos of people hiking up to the Mirador in which they don't run around like crazy to take photos, even when the weather's bad".
Frightened after reading about Kris and LisanneSomeone wrote in September 2020: "This case is freaking me out, anybody else relate? - I heard of this case maybe 3 weeks ago and watched basically every video, read every article, blog and post and discussed this case with friends. I really like mystery murder cases and anything spooky and weird, and I am a huge "x-files" fan since the 90ies basically. I couldn't sleep for days, I was constantly thinking about this case and I don't know why. There are many unsolved cases on the internet, many of them more cruel or more weird than this one. But somehow these two girls stick with me, I think about them quite often. As soon as I read a new post or a new article I get the chills, it totally freaks me out. It was quite hard to keep a bit of distance so that I can work and function properly in my day to day life tbh. Can anyone relate? How come that this case is so terrifying?
W0ndwerw0man replied: "It’s so interesting to read this thread. I was the same, this case popped up on a YouTube video randomly and without knowing very much about it, once I saw those night photos I became sick and terrified. They felt almost paranormal. I’m pretty rational and have gotten deep into other true crime analysis before (Chris watts, Steven Avery etc) - but I have never felt such an uncomfortable creepy vibe before, even with all the weird stuff happening in other cases. There is something haunting and doomed around the happy snaps of them on the mountain... You can almost feel them being watched by something sinister. They seem so full of strong feminine energy ... yet so vulnerable and naive. And then those night photos.... I was too scared to sleep after seeing them. I also had multiple dreams about it all, and I can’t shake the sadness. Interesting that others feel the same. None of the evidence makes sense. I feel such deep sadness for the parents - how horrific for them."
Papercard replied: "The strange night pics have a lot to do with the foreboding undertone of this case. The fact that they just seem to be random shots in the middle of the jungle, with strange markings (such as the 'SOS' message, plastic bag/sticks, etc.), with no real focus - seem odd. Not necessarily frantic (as you would expect if you were terrified out there) - but they seem to have be taken a methodical and calm manner. There is something very unsettling about that. Also the shot of the back of K's head has very 'blair witch' type vibes to it. Almost like the ending of the movie where the guy is made to face the wall in the abandoned house, so even when the girl comes screaming up behind him, he doesn't turn around."
Ivdiko1 replied: "The creepiest thing is when you imagine that somebody was actually in the middle of the jungle in the middle of the night taking those photos."ShameDoe replied: "Yes for me the creepiest moment of learning about this case was scrolling through dozens of random night shots of scenery, and then suddenly there's one solitary extreme close up of the back of Kris's head, and then back to the scenery shots... so disturbing."
Papercard replied: "I know exactly what you mean. The first time I heard about this case, was in a YouTube video to do with unsolved disappearances. It was a top 10 or 20 list of the weirdest cases or something similar. I actually didn't have the sound on at the time, I think it had been muted from a previous session. I wasn't really paying much attention to the video (as it was muted) but it was playing in the background, and they flashed a photo of Lisanne (this photo of her on top of the Mirador) and I had the coldest chill run down my spine. It was such a strange reaction! I'd never really had such a response like that before to any other type of true crime/mystery. Instantly, I felt like I just knew something sinister and untoward had happened to her. Even tho, at that point, I had never even heard of the girls. There is something just not quite right about this disappearance. In so many other mysteries there are other things going on which could somewhat explain the steps that ultimately culminated to the persons demise. But this disappearance has none of that. This disappearance really shouldn't have happened. Something malevolent happened to those girls out there. It's a very frightening case."
Jojaxy replied: "I stumbled upon this case watching a random crime show and getting a glimpse of the case. Beside the fact that I am Dutch myself and the girls were from an area I know well, the story just grabbed literally ALL my attention when I went to find out more. At times during the first few weeks of reading everything about it, I would regret knowing anything about it as my sleep really suffered and I felt really knackered for a while! It kept me up because I was reading about it, thinking about it but mostly because I was seriously creeped out with the weird details and strange photos. I took a breather for a while and now I'm drawn back in. But this time around I can actually sleep. But yea, its something that is never far from my mind. I just feel so so sorry the girl's holiday took such a horrible and fatal turn. Genuinely hope there will be a break through at some stage."
Iwasthinkin replied: "I can absolutely relate. I’ve been more or less preoccupied with this case for 6 months or so. The only reason I even got onto here was because google searches for information kept bringing me to interesting posts. There’s just so much weird stuff with this case: the odd cell phone usage, the creepy night photos, and the perfectly intact backpack...just to name a few.Also, it seems like a case that can be cracked if we could just find that overlooked piece of evidence that brings it all together."
Someone replied: "It has that "Blair Witch Project" flair, right. There must really be something we are all missing here. I don't think it is that complicated, it might be just one thing/fact we have not been thinking about and not considered. Something odd yet obvious. I watched that video of a really strange guy on YT, I can't remember his name, sorry. He said basically that it has nothing to do with sex trafficking or organ trafficking (you need a sterile environment for this) but a lot with young men, who live near Boquete in the jungle sheds and are not really gang members but just full of misogyny and entitled and chauvinistic. They see women as prey and have no respect for human life whatsoever. He showed a drastic video too, where one of those guys mistreated a woman and his face was so stoic and empty all that time. It really frightened me. If it looks like a frog, talks like a frog, smells like a frog, it is frog. You know what I mean? [..] That guy on YT was quite convincing, I mean sure, he didn't explain the details but he was just giving an overview over the social circumstances or the social environment of Panama. (he was born in Panama or Mexico I guess, but lives in the US). Although Panama is modern and open it still has that patriarchal structure in certain areas of the country. I think that things got out of hand up there on Mirador. They must have met someone and then everything went south, you can see it in the last picture of Kris. The girls had an argument, she looked disappointed, angry and irritated and when I think back to my experiences and my life, I made that expression when I was disappointed and annoyed by a man or a nasty situation that was caused by a man. (I don't mean that disrespectful). You can see the tension between the girls. I think Lisanne tried to sweep the conflict under the carpet. She tried maybe to cheer Kris up or to calm her down by talking to her, taking pics, maybe laughing. And Kris didn't respond to that at all. There had to be a fight, there is no other explanation for her facial expression. And about what would you fight as friends?"Papercard replied: "Agreed - foul play must have been involved, otherwise all the evidence we have doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure the last picture of Kris really tells us much unfortunately. I think it was just a case of Kris not looking up at the camera in time, before she had a chance to smile properly. I think whatever happened to them that afternoon occurred about 20-40-60 mins after the last normal photo (#508) was taken. Maybe they even captured some of it (whatever/whoever they came across) on #509 - which is why it was subsequently deleted."
Iwasthinkin replied: "I agree with this. Those initial phone calls may have been legitimate but after that it’s chaos and nothing makes sense. I can’t believe they wouldn’t use their phones more on that first night. It’s not as tho they got cozy and had a nice sleep before deciding what to do the next day. Even camping with a tent and supplies is pretty miserable in those types of conditions. In the middle of the jungle, alone and without much in the way of supplies? They probably wouldn’t have slept much at all. They would have tried to get a connection a couple of more times out of boredom if nothing else."Someone replied: "The pictures after reaching Mirador are telling another story in my opinion. Something happened right after they left Mirador and followed the path into the jungle. Or it happened right on Mirador. There is a certain tension, Kris looks so different. The pic where she holds that water bottle, legs crossed, this is so weird. It looks passive-aggressive, where is the victory sign, the smile? I know there is no evidence and I am just speculating but i consider myself as empathic, there is something off. Lisanne taking pics from a distance is completely strange. I just try to imagine what could have happened and how I would react. If I had a fight with a friend, this is exactly what I would do. Stay a bit behind, taking pictures, maybe clowning around, try to cheer my friend up. Especially when having an unpleasant encounter with a bunch of men. I just try to see all the photos from another perspective, not so much concentrating on the facts (trees, stones, foliage etc) but more on the circumstances. You can also see that Kris shorts are dirty, also her leg. She maybe slipped, caused by running away from those perpetrators, being annoyed, not anxious but just annoyed by the whole situation. [..] Maybe they blocked their way, and the only way to "escape" was in the opposite direction. Maybe it was not a dangerous threat but more of a "game" (sadly as a woman I know those kind of games, which start pretty light and turn into a severe threat when men don't get what they want), so the girls were annoyed, not anxious and decided to continue their path down the Pianista into the woods for a bit. Maybe they wanted to explore more, maybe just get away from that threatening encounter and surely going back after a couple of hours. As soon as they recognized that the sun was setting, they called 112. They were pretty surprised by the darkness I guess."
I wrote myself at the end of my part 1 blog post: "I've followed so many murder case investigations over the years but none affected me like this one. Probably because it is not clear what exactly happened and there are so many tragic and frightening aspects to the story, no matter which theory you believe. And to say something more about what could have happened, you need to submerge yourself really deep into it, which gets to your psyche a bit. Well I couldn't sleep properly for some time at least when I first heard more about the details of this case not too long ago. It seems to trigger the imagination of everyone: two young beautiful women on an adventure in an exotic setting.. Then the terrifying element of being lost in a hostile and isolated environment.. Or kidnapped by evil people. So far from home. The cryptic clues provided by the phones and the camera, glimpses into the girls’ final days. The bones making little sense. Like many others out there, I just got sucked into this rabbit hole. I am an avid hiker myself and have done so for years, often alone in desolate nature with an audiobook on my headphones, but I was afraid to do so for quite some time after submerging myself into this case, and even carry a reliable weapon these days... The ominous night photos are still unsettling for me to watch, even though there is nothing to actually see, but you feel the haunting atmosphere in them. It's almost like a Hitchcock movie, the suspense is perhaps even more frightening than anything else. The stuff you imagine in your own mind, by association. The Blair Witch Project analogy has been made before, but it is pretty much like that. One of the scariest movies to me, despite not seeing a whole lot of creepiness; but you know something was chasing them. Forests are creepy anyway... To imagine these girls alone in the dark in a forest, methodically shooting photos that are incredibly creepy, with a so called SOS marker nearby.. it is very frightening to me. And I still get a shiver whenever I see the pictures from the girls at the Mirador; so happy looking, yet unknowing that they were scant hours away from the beginning of what must have been a terrifying end :( If they had turned back, they would have returned to town, had a nice pizza with a beer, and later that day hung out at the local bar, mingling with other travellers before starting to learn some more Spanish perhaps. One of them would have said "I think we were right no to push it, I didn't feel like it"... Instead, Kris' last line in her diary before heading out on their hike was: "Go with the Panamanian flow." {Photos are of the movie The Blair Witch Project - 1999]
Some opinions from a local Boquete discussion board Panamajames wrote on June 24th, 2014: "There is an issue that is not being reported. A "selfie" photo found on the cell phone camera of one of the girls, 8 days after April 1st. There are little bits of information that are not being released to the public........
Panamajames wrote on June 25th, 2014: "We are regular hikers in Boquete and have been having Monday morning hikes every week for close to 4 years now. [..] We hiked Volcan Baru one day and it was a 12 hour process. 7 hours up and 5 hours down. We actually ended up on a sister mountain, so decided not to stay overnight which a lot of people do. Boquete and Volcan are fabulous hiking areas. Because we hike so often, it is difficult to believe that there was not foul play involved with these Dutch Girls. People do get lost, a lot in fact, but with no bears or crocodiles or other extremely dangerous creatures in the jungles, it has always been considered a safe place to hike. There are a few cats like Margays, Ocelots, Pumas etc. but I have never heard of any people attacks........."
Politicalsciencefiction wrote on June 27th, 2014: "It ought to be patently obvious that these girls were crossing the Culebra River (which that trail does THREE times) and were swept away in a flash flood. That's why their remains were not found anywhere near the trail, but along the riverbank downstream. Nothing indicates that foul play was involved."
Rvvet wrote on June 27th, 2014: "No place is safe in Panama? What kind of statement is that? Why do you do this? Is it your goal to keep people from coming to Panama. I have travelled far and wide and currently split my time between the U.S. and Panama and never once in Panama did I ever feel unsafe or threatened. Common sense should always prevail no matter where you are. I can't tell you how many times I walked the streets in Panama City and never once feared for my safety. What is it with you? Your negativity is getting old."
Panamajames wrote on June 27th, 2014: "I too live in Panama and I too enjoy the country but it is not safe as it is not safe in the US or England or Saudi and on and on.Why is it people like you just can not accept the truth.Why is it you feel compelled to keep the truth from the public?I know one couple personally who were robbed at gun point,tied,beaten ,wife threatened that they may rape her all the while the group of five gun armed men terrorized them and stole all their belongings right out of their home in San Carlos? Should I go on with all the crimes people like you would prefer for some reason to hide.Not me....people need to know what they may face so they can be prepared.You must own rental units like Panama James or have other self interests at stake.I simply tell it the way I know it is so drop your foolishness and tell the truth.... Why do foreign companies provide guards for foreign employees here in Panama and a driver....wake up and smell the TRUTH! You are like Don Winner awhile ago stating a project named Malibu in Gorgona was a wonderful investment all the while is was actually bankrupt....."
MushroomMike wrote on June 28th, 2014: "Hey Panamajames, Why wouldn't the jaguar be found in Panama? It is found in Costa Rica, which is right next door and of similar forestation. It was suggested previously on this forum that both girls "...were swept away in a flash flood. " Or were their remains simply dumped in the river? Having lived in the Land of the Free for a few years, "missing girls" seem to be nearly synonymous with "foul play". Evidence of foul play over two months later and after copious amounts of rain, will not be easy to find. Sad in any case. Mike"
Panamajames wrote on June 28th, 2014: "I have no axe to grind at all and I live in a relatively safe place in a relatively safe house.What I get so so tired of on here is all the people that have self interest at number one and so they do not wish to tell the real truth and not "their" truth.It is very obvious to me certain individuals on here continually support an area such as Boquette because they at the same time are promoting their rental properties.Having stated that you will never get the truth about the crime rate in that particular area.Furthermore I don't give a damn what the crime rate in Florida or Flat Bush is ....and I don't see why people compare them to Panama.Panama is a country of roughly 3 million people of which a good percentage are of foreign origin so the crime rate per capita is what all should consider when in Panama. Not the crime rate elsewhere. I believe the truth rarely gets out on these sites so I call people on mistruths we will call them. Another issue is these two families who have lost their daughters certainly are not shown any respect by people quoting this and that. Let us direct the focus to finding out what happened to them and not why Boquette is not a bad place. If that is not self interest I don't know what is. As well a great deal of people who write on here don't even live in Panama so I call on them as well. The comment that people who have been involved on the receiving end of violent crime here were simply in the wrong place is the most ridiculous statement I have heard yet.My friends I wrote about who were tied,beaten for hours and robbed of everything including their car were in their own home at the time five minutes from the San Carlos Police station and it took the so called police an hour to show up but no no one wants to let the public know about that or the 10 or so people simply sitting in a restaurant are all of a sudden robbed by a number of armed men ..again guns and the gang actually even stabbed the cook ....but hey no one apparently thinks there I any crimes in Panama.Wake up and smell the roses ....people in a car simply going to dinner down the back road to Decameron were shoot at five times as the gun men attempted to stop the car to rob them but hey again Panama is a "safe" place. Come on lets be honest and properly inform people who may be thinking about moving to Panama just how unsafe it can be. I truly hope no one that reads these sites ever has to go through any bad and violent experiences here in Panama but they need to be fore warned so they do not end up a statistic.Yes my wife and I have been robbed here in Panama as well...I am not whining ...its a fact of life ...it happened.We are grateful to be alive.... Again I have no axe to grind at all ...I just want people reading the truth and not some hype by self focused individuals. Let us help one another and stop attacking the guy who simply wants the truth written.I will continue to call people who are not informing people on this site of the real truth...I believe the last time I checked we are free to do that.....unless that law has changed recently..."
Rvvet wrote on June 28th, 2014: "For the record I agree with you about people living in certain areas having an agenda and not wanting any bad news about that area appearing on this blog. That is not the case with me. I am not promoting any area. I like all of Panama from the beaches to the mountains and everything in between. The only point I was trying to make and perhaps I was not as articulate as I could have been it that crime is everywhere and Panama does not have an exclusive on it. Nor do I think it is any worse here than elsewhere. I sure wouldn't want anyone to stay away from coming here because they thought this was a crime infested country which in my opinion it is not."
Another interesting topic that was discussed briefly on WebSleuths, is the finding of the broken off foot of Lisanne Froon Skidawayme wrote:
"I've been puzzled since the beginning about Lisanne's foot. The criminologist said it was very peculiar for a foot to come apart at the ankle. Well, how did it come apart? According to Prosecutor Pitti, there's no evidence of cutting and no trauma of any kind. I asked my surgeon husband how the foot could have separated from the rest of the body and he said there's no way except cutting or severe abrasion (the river scenario). I grilled him a bit more and he did say later that an explosion might do it, too. <bombshell>" Skidawayme, which is her user name on the Websleuths forum, states that she is a writer who uses the MostlyMystery blog, which she shares with 4 other mystery writers.
Skidawayme also wrote some things about the Pianista Trail and Boquete being used for drug traffic: "I don't know of any specific trails like El Pianista being used for drug traffic. I only have heard the generalized version, which in the past involved Caldera. Today, I asked our housekeeper again about this and received a very interesting response. Before that, though, I want to say that I know from experience that there has been trouble in Caldera -- just one example very close to home: about 3 years ago, the housekeeper's father was set upon by two Colombians and beaten senseless. He was thrown in a dry riverbed, where he wandered for 2 days before anyone found him. The assault left him permanently brain damaged. Periodically, the housekeeper has told me about Colombians being present in the town, that their presence was unnerving, and that there were various acts of violence. She told me that Caldera was part of the drug transit route from Bocas to the Frontera. Today, when I asked her about this she said the police have finally cracked down and ended the problem. Now, apparently, there is a permanent checkpoint that you must go through when you're coming from Bocas. You know what I'm talking about -- the kind of post where they have the really tough anti-drug police. I've even run into U.S. DEA agents at similar checkpoints. We have them every now and then on Boquete roads, usually around holidays. Anyway, she says Caldera has been cleaned up but now they're running the drugs through Gualaca. I looked the town up so I could present it correctly. You know, but for the rest of the folks here Gualaca is a small district with approximately 8,000 inhabitants. It's about half an hour South and East of Caldera right on the main road between Bocas and David. So, that's my point of clarification on Caldera. You may have more information on Gualaca, altho I'm not sure how it would bear on the missing girls' situation. One other interesting thing she said was that drugs are becoming a problem in Boquete. I know we've had some drug problems in the past but evidently it's escalated. Being a gringo, my information about things like this is pretty much limited to what our local employees tell us. Bocas/Changuinola and Boquete are not the Darien but they are on the way to the Frontera with Costa Rica. That's the Holy Grail on this side of Panama; everyone's looking to move their product due North. Boquete, in particular, is not known for being in the drug trade but Caldera is a major transit route and it's only 30 minutes from here. My housekeeper is from there and from the stories she tells, the Colombians wax and wane in the community. There'll be a period where there's a lot of crime, very physical crime, and then it will taper off, only to come back later. The information I have is that SENAFRONT is trying to stop the flow of drugs through the Darien but their techniques are simply not working very well. Recently, I read an article about the drug trade being pushed inland as the maritime patrols have become more effective. I read everything I can get my hands on (including FARC's own website) and I would listen to their radio station if I could understand Spanish. And then there's what's left of UAC and the new and very scary kid on the block, BACRIM. So much to learn..."
And Skidawayme also wrote some interesting things about what she heard from local tour guide P: "Okay, now to my revelation. My husband and I returned from Panama City a few days ago and the man who was sent to drive us from the David airport back to Boquete was tour guide P., one of the community of local guides who works for a company called "Boquete Tree Trek." He told me he walks all over Panama all the time, taking the trail back and forth to Bocas, a several days' trek, as we know, frequently. He had already conducted a couple on a multi-hour hike before he collected us. We were definitely the easy part of his day. Now P. is not just any guide; he's the man who's been deputized to run the task force that's setting forth the new regulations for Panama's trails and guides. A reminder: tourism is BIG in Panama and this is an important task force. That makes P. a pretty credible source, in my book.
So, as we spoke, the conversation gravitated to the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne (well, duh, I wasn't about to let that chance slip by), and right off the bat P. said he believed they were murdered.
Needless to say, I sat up a little straighter. Then he said what I had always thought -- that they probably stumbled onto some narco-traffickers and that was that. The men used them sexually, then disposed of them in the jungle and a few of their bones and personal items were found in or near a river where they'd either been dragged by an animal or dumped. They may not have even opened the backpack or, if they did -- to deposit the bras, for instance (although why??) -- they might not have been interested in items that would have implicated them -- phones and camera. They might not have seen the money. Even so, it was small potatoes to folks like that. Lots of speculation back and forth but most of it coming from someone in the know. It's important I think to note that the narco traffickers are among us, they just aren't of us. And therefore we don't always intuit their habits very well -- i.e. leaving small money, not taking items that would have to be disposed of outside their normal crime channels, etc. Narco-traffickers deal in big money, no two ways about it. There aren't any street corner junkies selling their wares in the jungle. These are serious, deadly people whose transactions are frequently in the hundreds of thousands of dollars -- or more. Several more fascinating things P. said: when I mentioned the four dangerous snake species in the area, he politely scoffed. Apparently, there are many, many more varieties and sub-varieties of poisonous snakes. He was quite familiar with snakebite and said it is a not infrequent occurrence that he sees a cow or horse or other animal corpse intact in the jungle because that animal was bitten by a snake and has been poisoned and the other animals won't eat it. So, if Kris or Lisanne had been bit, their corpse would have been intact, at least until it decomposed naturally. I say "if Kris OR Lisanne had been bit" because P. dismissed the likelihood of both girls being bit. Another thing -- the boots. He, too, thought the placement of the boot behind the tree was odd, but, beyond that, he told me that most people who set out to trek in Panama don't wear the right kind of boots. Once, he conducted two men on what was supposed to be a day-long walk but they had to turn back after two hours because the men's boots were shredded. Found that very interesting considering the two boots found and the shape they were in. [The shoe and boot found were either looking brand new and the other fairly clean and in good shape, not damaged or filthy]. I gather from P. that that might have been one reason he thought they were attacked almost right away -- the condition of the boots."
Dynamo ZG replied: "Great story skidawayme!! Once P. said for dutch tv that the girls had probably an accident, but after time / several months he changed his opinion, which is logical... you get more time to see more options. So this is very interesting now.. Last week we had the brother from Lisanne, who knows her condition (health etc.) and said he was sure that she died because of an accident. And meanwhile expert P. said they were murdered."
Matteo replied: "I think the guides in the area know who dwell there on the paths. They smell the violent nature of their countryman from far, I expect, from small signs. No shootout but tactical acting is needed then."
Skidawayme replied: "This is important, Matteo. You've put your finger on it. I think they do have a nose for the dangerous people. And they probably know equally well how to quietly avoid them. On a different subject altogether, <I've lived in Boquete for 9+ years and> one other item I've noticed while living here is the alcohol consumption. It's certainly not my intent to say anything derogatory. Not that alcohol use isn't high virtually everywhere, but I've seen the local folks buying the Seco Herrerano, which is the Panamanian version of vodka, this one distilled from sugarcane. There does seem to me to be a culture of men going out and getting drunk, kind of like college kids or millennials doing shooters, but these are older men. A couple of girls stumble on a few men in that condition anywhere in the world and anything can happen. Some narcos passing around a bottle in the jungle, wow, that's one dark corner I'd never want to step into. Again, like so much else, pure speculation that alcohol played any role at all in the disappearance. Just one more possibility."
Skidawayme also wrote: "I've been doing quite a bit of research into the Darien Jungle in preparation for my next book. Part of my investigation has centered around jungle warfare. (I even took an online course "Grunt 101." :) ) One thing I learned is that flash-bang grenades and flares are not very useful in the jungle because it's often too dense to send them on their way properly and, the other side of the coin, frequently too dense to see them. About the bras, I really do have to make a comment. First of all, I regularly lose 25-30 pounds in preparation for trips. You could perhaps call me the ultimate yo-yo dieter. All of my garments are obviously looser as I shed the weight and I gravitate away from many of them as the pounds come off. Altho I diminish up top -- usually, as someone remarked, that's the first place the weight melts away -- I don't always change my bras. It might surprise the male population of this thread to know that 95% of the women of the world wear an incorrect bra size (A very scientific study confirms this. Well not exactly, but bra consultants -- yes, they do exist -- will tell you that every time.) So, we have no way of knowing if their bras got less or more comfortable as time went on -- if it did. Second, we've established, more or less, that the first night the girls went missing, they were probably still in an area where it would be cool after sundown. If it were me -- I'd keep on every stitch of clothing to stay warm. And, extending this to cover the jeans, I would keep every stitch of clothing on at all times if I were lost, unless I found myself where it was extraordinarily hot and humid. Even so, I'd keep the discarded items very, very close at hand -- in the plastic bag or backpack. And I would NEVER wander around bottomless! It's a matter of protection that I think most women want to feel. When in a life-threatening situation, you wouldn't take off clothes -- those are things that PROTECT you. A comment about the 2 dark pictures. Someone said (sorry, don't remember who) that they might have been made to help searchers. I don't think this makes a lot of sense. The girls eschewed taking earlier photos of landmarks which might have made some sense to rescuers in favor of taking two pictures that mean absolutely nothing to anyone? On the camera again, I've read the continuing discussion about the girls wanting to conserve the battery. For what, may I ask? If they were so non-tech savvy as to not understand they could try to relay their location through their phone in some manner even if they couldn't send a voice message, what on earth were they going to do with the batteries in their camera? Start a fire with them? Set up a communications signal? Really, what possible reason could they have had for wanting to conserve that particular battery?"
ZaZara wrote: "I can't get this scenario out of my head. I mean, think it through: Narcotraficantes on the loose on el Sendero del Pianista. This makes me wonder: if two girls could not stop them, would three girls manage to do that? Or three girls and a tiny man like the guide F.? Or, for that matter, tour guide P. himself? This short video featuring F. with three (?) giggling French girls on the Mirador is a recipe for disaster. They probably think they're safe with a guide, but in the case of a meeting with drogatraficantes with roving eyes, they would not stand a chance. I wonder what P. has to say about that? He might not want to give his business a bad name either. Or are these guides armed and prepared for a shoot-out during a pleasant day hike?"
Skidawayme wrote: "I thought he meant that they were set upon early in the time of disappearance; otherwise, their boots would have been in much worse condition. Do you remember way back in the discussion, someone, maybe many someones :) commented that the blue boot looked almost new? I think he meant those boots hadn't done very much walking. [..] I did a bit of editorializing on the narcos, based on what I've read of FARC, the Marxist narco-trafficantes in the Darien. For all we know, the bad guys stopped somewhere just off the trail to make an exchange and then happened on the girls. Not necessarily being held to a rigid schedule (you can't really do that, in the jungle, from everything I've read), they could have taken a bit of time for fun and games. :( That's my hypothesis, not tour guide P's. He simply said he thinks they probably had an encounter and the bad guys spent some time with them for sex and then killed them. I'm guessing the folks who move drugs through Panama, and especially through the jungles, aren't kept to a strict timetable. If the weather sours on you, so can all your travel plans. So I imagine these folks stay in touch using cell and sat phones and they all have a general idea where each cog in the machine is at any given time. If someone were too slow I suppose they'd send out some folks to rustle them up. But a bit of recreation -- how much time would that take? The girls stopped trying to call for help on day 3. No way to know, but all of their 911 calls could have been because they were lost. They might not have happened on the bad guys until after the final help call on the 3rd day, explaining why there were no more help calls made after that. But then, P. doesn't seem to think they walked very far which would argue for an earlier encounter. Aargh. Enough to make your head spin. And then there's the turning on and off of the phones and the craziness of the camera -- how can we ever explain any of this unless a credible witness comes forth? Again -- I want to plainly state that P. had a very cut and dried comment to make. He thinks narcos got the girls early on, raped, then killed them, and then scattered their remains around. Yes, it is very cruel. And an awful scenario for the families. :(" [..] We get dribs and drabs of information and then peoples' opinions this way and that way. I keep waiting for someone to come forward who was paid off or who simply witnessed something and has been too afraid to speak up. But then, I write murder mysteries so I'm predisposed to think of this as murder. Truly, the whole thing is stirring my brains around and I'm not even sure that relaying P's opinion was of any value. His comments on the poisons and the boots, yes, I think those are important."
Someone else commenting on a public blog also went all out with his mental gymnastics, trying to explain this case (All quotes): "Looks to me like the Dyatlow Pass incident : lots of facts, lots of data, but nothing fits together. Time gap... The problem is NOT that the pictures were taken at night or that they used a flashlight of the digital camera to threaten wild animals: If I got lost in the jungle I would use the flashlight to see what´s coming, that´s for sure : large snakes, spiders and cats. But I would do it the FIRST night. The girls used it only the SEVENTH night. Why that ? The first nights they were not scared at all ? The first night alone in a jungle would scare the shit out of me! And if I had to walk my way out of the jungle I would do it by NIGHT. Humidity and dehydration is a very serious problem in a jungle. If you cross a desert by foot, you´d definitely do it at night and not by day! What still puzzles me is the time gap between the pictures taken at the first day they got lost and the eleventh day. I just don´t get it ! Imagine the situation. They were in a very bad situation. But not one single picture, no audio recordings with the cell phones, no documentation about the situation whatsoever for seven days. NOTHING ! Are you kidding me ? Those kids grew up with all that electronic stuff. On the net you can see pictures of them playing cards with friends, swimming, partying etc. So from now on I have to speculate. What if there was no time gap. What if EVERYTHING happened the first night. What if a third party was involved and changed all the dates in the camera (and the cell phone logs) of the night pictures. All the night pictures (at least where you can see something) look to me like an ENCOUNTER with something or somebody. The official report mentions a lot of unknown fingerprints on the backpack, the camera and the cell phones that do not belong to the two girls. Well, of course, they could belong to the people who found all the stuff. This was not checked ? Are you kidding me ? And we all know by now that one crucial single picture is missing. In addition one has to remember: The only proof of use of their cell phones AFTER the first night is the cell phone log. There was no connection with any station that could serve as a REGISTERED proof that they really used their cell phones after the first night !"
"Cliff. The official version says : one of them fell down a steep cliff. It must have happened the first day when they called emergency for the first time. It was mentioned in the official reports that the cliff is at least 30 meters high. Well, if you fell down a cliff so high and hit solid ground you´re DEAD. At least you suffer severe and heavy injuries that makes it impossible to go on for another seven days ! This is ridiculous. But what happened then. The other one climbed down to help her friend ? If she could climb down why not up again to get help. At that point they were still on the trail. And it is highly improbable that both fell down simultaneously. There is one picture, taken at night (the 90 night pictures series) where you can see one of the girls STANDING in the dark. (enhanced, done by forensics). With heavy injuries you don´t get up and stand in the flashlight like this !"
"Human remains: Of course it makes perfect sense that a decomposing body in the jungle attracts wildlife. Big cats may have torn apart the bodies and/or dragged parts of it into the jungle. The rest was taken away by other animals or by running water. I do not have a problem with that. It explains why only small fragments of the bodies were found. But if all of this was true : The coroner could not find a single animal trace on the pelvis. It was like polished. No traces at all whatsoever. Are you kidding me ? Even if the pelvis was the part of the body that was not eaten and taken away by running water, it would have shown heavy signs of dragging over ground."
"Backpack: The woman who found it said it had not been there the day before. So it suddenly appeared out of nowhere the right time the right place. And was in good condition. Come on, are you kidding me ?"
"Other problems: Was the water bottle in the backpack empty or filled when it was found ? If it was filled, then they obviously didn´t have a problem with water shortage and dehydration. Maybe it was still the water they brought with them. If it was and not rain or water from the river, then the official story would have a BIG problem. This was not checked either ? Are you kidding me ?"
"To summarize: I am not saying a third party was involved or that there was foul play. But the whole story smells, if not stinks."
"Yet other problems: The dog was gone. Why? The dog apparently found the way home. If they got lost, why not use the dog as a guide to find the way back home. Even if one of the girls was severely injured the other could have gone for help with the help of the dog (That was obviously the reason why the dog had been with them). Conclusion : the dog was gone when the two girls really needed its help. Why ? Did anybody check the state of the dog when it returned ?"
-"The panties of Kremers found in the river: Maybe Kremers suffered from diarrhea and had to wash the panties in the river due to obvious reasons. In order to do that she had to take them off. Being sick, maybe she kept going in her underwear. But how did she lose them ? Of course, due to high humidity, the girls had want to wash themselves, if there was a possibility to do it. When found, the panties obviously were in good condition showing NO signs of body fluids and were not torn apart : If somebody´s got diarrhea it will be difficult to wash out all the dirt. Body fluids in clothing are difficult to treat, even with a detergent. Nevertheless it is hard to believe that a female in a hostile environment like a jungle will deliberately take off her panties without being forced to do so."
-"The picture that was taken when the human remains were found show TWO different kind of boots. How´s that ? I always thought only Kremers´ boot was found. REMARKABLE : Have you noticed the bootstraps on Kremers´ boot ? Like she did them yesterday ! Very Strange !"
A possible explanation why there was no documentation on the camera. "Let´s assume the official timeline is true (i. e. the timeline that is set by the phone log data and the dates that go with the pictures). So we know there were no pictures on the camera documenting what was happening after day 1 to day 8 (the time gap). I have to admit I do not know how the Canon digital camera works. Let´s assume the flashlight ONLY operates when pictures are taken: The night pictures were taken with high probability at the monkey bridge in complete darkness and it was raining. Suppose one of the girls was injured or even wounded (one picture obviously supports this asumption). If she was bleeding, then they were in desperately need of a light source to check the wound. The only light source was the flashlight of the camera (the phones could have served the same purpose but they wanted to save battery power. Remember : with high probability there was only one phone left !). But to make the flash operate one has to take pictures. Assume the girls MADE a thorough documentation what happened to them the previous days (lots of pictures taken). But then the memory might have been full (How large was the memory of the Canon ? Does anybody have information on that ? - Me: there was enough battery life and memory space found by investigators). In order to get the flash working they HAD (in an active way !) to erase pictures from the camera (or even the whole memory). That would explain the complete absence of any pictures from the days before. It would of course not explain the absence of documentation from the cell phones (e.g possible audio recordings)."
"My assumptions are : They were in DESPERATE need of a light source (for any reason whatsoever). The camera flash operates only when pictures are taken (I dont know. Is that true ? - Me: yes this is correct, it only works when pictures are taken) The memory of the digital camera was (almost) full. What could be crucial here is the chronological order the night pictures were taken : Were the first pictures taken in that night the ones where you can see something (and afterwards the dark pictures) ? Or the other way round ? Or mixed ? Does anybody have information on this ? We know that the first pictures were taken in rapid succession and then there was a time lap of several minutes with no pictures taken. But that could be explained by the full memory. The girl who took the pictures first had to erase the memory which took a while in order to continue. It would also explain why most of the night pictures were just black. They just needed the light of the flash. If my assumptions are wrong then we are back with the question : Why no documentation/pictures between day 1 and day 8."
"What caused the bleeding wound or any other injury ? I cannot believe the girls were stupid enough to use the slippery monkey bridge to cross the river by night (unless, of course, they were forced do to it). And the very important question here is : Had they already crossed the river or were they still on the other side and about to cross the river ? On which side of the bridge were they when they took the pictures ? In the direction they were going or the direction they came from ? Is it visible on the night pictures ? If they hadn´t crossed the river, where did the head wound come from ? Any information on this ?"
"I still have massive problems understanding the official timeline : The sources say that an (admittedly) experienced hiker needs 5-8 hours to get to the monkey bridge (from the place where the last „normal“ photos were taken on April 1st). If both girls were still well and in good condition they would have made it earlier to the bridge (in fact much earlier). If one or both were seriously injured (that would of course explain the first emergency calls), like a broken leg or foot, why the hell did they move on (if it was possible at all) and not stay where they were, waiting for help ? Or even try to go back the way the came ? The only explanation is that already in the first evening/night they had gone too far, crossing deep trenches and rivers several times. Going back with e.g. a broken leg/foot is hardly possible in this case. But that would mean that they got stuck in a rather SMALL area of the jungle for SEVEN days. It is hard to believe that a rescue team or the local indian people should not have spotted them. Most people have speculated that they called 112 or 911 because they got injured the first day. But that´s NOT a necessary conclusion : They walked into the jungle for hours and suddenly they realised they got lost. So they called emergency : Get us the hell out of here, we´re lost. They walked on (the circular path theory or some other strange psychological hypotheses). But then they should have made it to the monkey bridge MUCH earlier. To find the monkey bridge at all, they must have stayed somehow on or besides the path otherwise they would have found a needle in a haystack ! Very unlikely ! Again, as I have speculated, what if they made it to the bridge the same day (or night) ? Maybe there, by crossing the river at night an accident happened. But I just cannot believe they tried that bridge at night. They could have done it the other day by daylight and in a safe way. Of course an accident could have happened by daylight also. I personally assume there were no injuries/wounds etc. until the night of April 8th . Nevertheless, it would mean they were at the bridge for seven days (if the official timeline is true. I still doubt it !). And no one found them ? Come on ! A bridge like this means more or less regular thru traffic (other tourists, local indians). And it would explain why they didn´t move for seven days. Because they thought : „Hey, there´s a bridge, someone will pass the next hours or days.“ Makes a lot of sense to me. And they didn´t have the problem of dehydration with the river passing nearby. Additionally this scenario could explain, at least partially, why there were no pictures on the camera from April 1st to April 8th : They were unharmed and in relative good condition at the same spot in the jungle. There is then not that much to document."
"Then, if the official timeline is true, in the night from April 7th to April 8th, something DECISIVE and UNUSUAL SUDDENLY happened THERE (this is the only conclusion you can draw from the mere existence of the night pictures). From then on, the entire story is a black hole. And, to repeat myself, it stinks three miles against the wind. Open to any speculation. The bridge, the river and the surrounding area are the key to an understanding of the whole thing. Most people only mention the smart phone logs. How important they are. I think it is much more important to understand how the digital camera works. When, why and where the pictures were taken and in what order. To me, the night pictures look like an encounter with something or somebody (of course; hey, they are on a trail !). I stick to that. If „it“ had been friendly, the girls would have been saved and were still alive.""Suppose there was no crime. Death either by accident or by wildlife (irrespective of what follows). Sources say, there are various kind of lethal snakes in the jungle. Suppose one of the girls got bitten the night April 8th early in the morning. This would explain the desperate need of a light source that night. With snakes like that death occurs rapidly. So there is one dead body ON THE ROCKS/RIVER BANKS at the wire bridge were the last pictures were taken. What happens next ? The surviving girl either moves the body (why should she do that ?) or leaves it where it is. Now they are one week in the jungle without food. The remaining girl must have been rather weak and under normal circumstances the girls weight is approx. 50-70 Kgs. She leaves the body where it is. Does she move on or does she stay ? Well, they were very close friends. And she is weak, maybe sick, and desperate. She stays until the end (last phone activation 3 days later !). Even if she went on (most likely downstream the river) the following discussion is not touched by it."
"What happened to the bodie(s) ? Scenario 1 : The bodies are washed into the river. Even if this was the case (Imagine : the bodies are rather heavy. I doubt that heavy rain can do it), the bodies would have been found as a whole and not broken up into tiny pieces. (even when decomposition had already reduced the weight of the bodies). Very unlikely ! Scenario 2 : Wildlife (big cats) is attracted by the decomposing bodies. The bodies are dragged into the jungle (not far but far enough). But then it is highly unlikely that ANYTHING of the bodies is found downstream in the river. I am not quite sure of this but I guess the rescue teams searched the area and found nothing. The bodies stay on the rocks/river banks, the (loosely connected) remains are washed into the river (obviously there was nothing at the bridge). But for a big wild cat it would be a rather unusual behaviour. If this was true much of the skeleton had to be found somewhere along the river (downstream) and not just a few pieces. Especially the skulls and heavy bones would have been found somewhere, and of course the remains would have been scattered with animal signs all over."
"What happened to the backpack ? Scenario 1 : the surviving girl stayed with her dead friend until the end. The backpack was not found at the bridge but downstream. The only (NATURAL) way to get there was by floating down the river. It was nevertheless in perfect condition when found. The cell phones and the sunglasses did not have a broken glass (!!!) and the camera was working, no electronic elements inside were harmed. As I have already mentioned earlier, this assumption is nothing but ridiculous ! Scenario 2 : The surviving girl went downstream the river (the remains were found there, so this assumption makes sense). But she must have been died somewhere along that path. Because the area where the remains were finally found was searched extensively and no complete corpse was found, she must have died somewhere in between. But again : In this case the backpack also had to float down the river to get to the place where it was finally found. Without any harm in perfect condition. All the scenarios I mentioned seem rather unlikely. And it doesn´t matter if it was a lethal accident or wildlife. Everything brings us back to the crime scenario. But : There are no bodies. No bodies, no crime. That´s what „it“ intended."
"Admittedly there is one point which strongly supports the scenarios I described above. A lot of phone checks (switch on and off) were made after that night (April 7th -April 10th ). Of course : One girl dead, one in a very bad condition, trying desperately seeking help (remember : an emergency call is always possible without a pin !). So these data in the cell phone log make perfect sense. If there was a crime against the girls in that night, why all these phone checks for three days. Maybe „it“ was looking for any proof on that phone that would have revealed its existence. But „it“ had no pin. So „it“ would have checked the phones maybe two or three times without success and then would have stopped. But so many checks ? NEVERTHELESS, all the scenarios above do not answer the fundamental questions everybody had from the very beginning. I have added some more. Studying the case for so many days, I am again back at the point where I started days ago."
"The cell phone usage after April 7th - Sources say that Kremers´ phone was switched on and off a lot of times after April 7th and several attempts of a wrong pin were recorded. (How many ? Any information on this? - Me: 77 attempts with the wrong PIN code were made over several days) I am not familiar with all that new electronic stuff, so correct me if I´m wrong : when switched on you get a message „no signal“ on the display of the phone if there is no signal (i.e. you definitely know if you are connected to a net or not) if you do not enter a pin you get a message on the display that nevertheless emergency calls are possible (which means the girls KNEW it). Why do I want to discuss this ? Some people said the reason the wrong pin was entered was that Kremers was dead or unable and that Froon did not know the pin of her cell phone (it was Kremers´ phone that was used after April 7th ). But from the above said this makes little sense. The first attempts to call emergency were made with entering the pin. But I guess this was done by them automatically : switch phone on, enter pin and then go on. They did it a thousand times before without being in need to call emergency. But after April 7th the situation is completely different. Why should Froon want to enter a pin at all : she didn´t know it and there was no need to do it (if she just wanted to make an emergency call). Obviously Kremers would have entered the correct pin. And : there was no signal . This makes it even stranger ! Nevertheless recordings show that somebody tried to do it. Why ? One conclusion that can be drawn is that not one of the girls but a third party used the phone to try to check what´s on it (i.e. not to make any calls). BUT maybe she just wanted to make an audio recording for her parents (she was dying !). If she only wanted to take pictures she could have used the camera. Nevertheless this explanation does NOT fit into the scheme of the official timeline : No documentation on the camera /cell phones for seven days.
I listened to the interview he [special FBI agent John deSouza] gave some years ago yesterday (you can find it on youtube). Very interesting. He strongly advocates the crime hypotheses. His central argument was the time gap. He was VERY determined regarding that point. I got the impression that he knew more than he was willing to talk about in the public. If it was a crime, the killer („it“) would have had to major problems : To get rid of the bodies and to make it look like an accident. Some sort of „Girls went into the jungle, girls got lost, girls died, girls were eaten by the tigers“ – stuff. Why not put the bodies into the jungle and let the jungle handle the problem ? Well : The girls were abused, maybe tortured and that of course leaves marks on their bodies. There is a small probability but nevertheless a probability that somebody might have found the (complete) bodies. „It“ cannot take the risk. And imagine : The get rid of the bodies by putting them to a remote place of the jungle you have to GO there (maybe several miles, ESPECIALLY if they were hold captive on a ranch). There is always a probability that you meet somebody along the way or that somebody watches you. You do not have such problems if you dismember/dissolve the bodies and then just take a few remaining pieces to the jungle as „proof“ for the accident hypotheses. Putting the backpack somewhere is also no problem because, of course, you can put the backpack/ belongings of the girls into another backpack. On those trails in the jungle a guy with a backpack is quite common."
"The night pictures - Why such a situation (night, rain) ? Well : to create the impression that the girls were in a very bad situation (desperate, waiting for help, slowly dying : the night („uhh“), the rain, the markers, the paper, Kremers´ hair etc). That was just a big show for the public, a fake. Kremers´ shorts and her EMPTY boot. So she undressed before she died ? Come on ! You always have to remember (a point DeSouza stresses several times in his interview. I, more than ever, think it is THE crucial point and the key to an understanding of the whole case) : After the first day there is NO documentation/pictures for 11 days, except the night pictures. On that pictures there are NO girls/persons. There is NOT A SINGLE proof that the girls were in the jungle AT ALL or that they took those night pictures ! Anybody could have taken those pictures ! The cell phone logs are not a proof either. Anybody could have switched them on and off from time to time. Even if a pin was entered : „it“ might have forced the girls to do it. There was no risk for „it“ because there was no signal. EVERYTHING had to look like a jungle accident. If the girls had disappeared without a trace, everybody would have suspected foul play from the very beginning."
"Some people have complained about dismembering the bodies, treating it with some chemical and getting rid of the remains would have been too much of an effort to hide the killer´s existence. What stupid argument is that ? A possible killer would have made ANY effort to make it look like an accident : Kidnapping, rape, torture and murder. It got as nasty as that ! And maybe „it“ already had exercise in doing so. I think DeSouza is right. The crime hypotheses is the only hypotheses where you do not get stuck with all those questions/ contradictions you have when considering an accident hypotheses. Always take the simplest hypotheses that fits the data. And, come on, he is a retired FBI agent, those people a very well trained professionals with a lot of experience. I would listen to his arguments."
"The first emergency calls on April 1st - Sources say that on the first day of their hike at around 5 p.m. local time the first emergency calls were made. What I found rather strange is that they tried to call emergency, but they just did it ONCE. ONE try, no signal, that´s it ! No further attempts. Just ONCE. If I were in such a situation I would have tried to change location, looking for a signal/ connectivity of my cell phone and definitely would have tried SEVERAL attempts to make a call, not just once. I have never bought the argument about saving battery power. Not in such a situation (there obviously must have been a reason for that calls, how bad whatsoever). I just cannot believe the girls went „O.K. , no signal, let´s save battery power. Unfortunately, then, we have to spent the night alone in a pitch black jungle with a lot of bad things around us. Let´s make another try tomorrow“. And maybe „Lets send the dog away to get help“. If I had to spend the night in a hostile environment like a jungle I definitely would not send the dog away. When it returned home there was no message with the dog. The more I think about the official timeline, the more ridiculous it gets."
Dave M. came with another good observation"Here's an interesting point. In this screen capture of what appears to be phone log data from Kris Kremers' phone, we see a glimpse of activity covering March 31st and the next two days. Studying this screen's data, Kris apparently turns on her phone on the 31st at thirteen minutes past...? Four? Or is it early in the morning? Regardless, we see her make contact at 16.44 PM with the wi-fi at the Spanish school. The next listed activity is the emergency call attempt the next day at 16.39 PM. It is perhaps purely coincidence that the call is made at the same time of day as the previous days connection to the Wi-Fi station, but the next entry after that notes a 'power-on' at 8.12am next morning on the 2nd April and another emergency call attempt just two minutes later.... after that we see what must be the next attempt, switching the phone on and trying an emergency call at 9.33am on the 3rd April. This is all interesting, as it is showing us that Kris Kremers was in the habit of switching her phone off even before they went on that hike on the 1st April. From the brief data shown here though she didn't switch it off after the 16.44 PM connection to exploit the WI-Fi at the school, no, she leaves it on through that night and only switches it off again somewhere after the first emergency call on the 1st April at 16.39 PM. And Switching it back on the next morning at 8.12am for another phone attempt. Battery conservation, so very early on? I wish it were detailed when her phone was switched OFF, that could be as informative as the times it is switched ON... if we knew when her phone was switched off on April 1st for example it would probobly tell a story in itself. I have to say, looking a this shapshot of the phones activity the actual LACK of activity is made very striking. (As a side thought - I do wonder whether the plugs on their phone chargers were compatible with the plug sockets found in Panama. It's one of those little details of holidaying abroad that can be forgotten and overlooked, but as American plugs differ to european standard, so too might Panamanian sockets differ to European standards. Unless you remember your special adaptor-socket you might have an issue charging your phones...).
I replied "Ah, you and your eagle eye again! Yeh well spotted. True, it appears that on March 31st, the phone was also powered on (and therefore also off) normally. This person was perhaps not in the habit of leaving the phone powered all day and night. Indeed, Kris was in the habit of switching her phone off even before they went on that hike. But the fact there is no 'power on phone' mentioned between wifi at the Spanish school on 16:44 on March 31st, and the 16:39 call to 112 on April 1st, may indeed mean that the phone was not switched off that night before, perhaps that can explain why they went up the mountain with only about 50% battery life. Add to that the early battery conservation, indeed. I am not sure if this screenshot of the report covers literally every handling of that phone, or merely highlights some things. As for the plugs, I assume they needed a universal adapter for that yes..."
Good extensive youtube video with a critical
personal assessment of the available info
I don't agree with Rotten Raven Studios' original and at times surprising opinions, for instance it makes no sense to me why Kris and Lisanne would wildly run after Blue the dog through the jungle, when they didn't seem to care enough about this dog to shoot even one photo of the animal during their hike. I don't see how these girls could one moment be pictured on the clear, embedded trail and the next moment have gotten themselves lost 'deep into the jungle', after chasing a dog supposedly. So deep into the jungle, that the tour guides, the army and the sniffer dogs, nor the Indigenous people living there have ever heard or seen them again. No, that makes no sense to me. And as is so often the case with Lost believers, the more inconvenient forensic details are just skipped, in this case the ball of skin. It was found intact and hardly decomposed five months after the girls went missing and 2,5 months after the first bones were found, but this important detail is simply ignored. Probably because it cannot logically be explained within a Lost scenario. He also blames animal predation for the state of the bones that were found, but ignores the hard forensic verdict, written down in the autopsy report, that no animal teeth-, claw- or feet marks were found on most of the bones. But this is a good video and I am certain a lot of readers will agree with the maker of it. And I like to share all sorts of views and opinions on this disappearance case. Differences of opinion is what keeps discussions lively. Rotten Raven Studios made also cool and eerie timelapse imagery of one of the Bocas photos of Kris and Lisanne, I made a gif of it to share it here. Someone made his own photos with a Canon powershot SX280 to see if they'd look like the nighphotos from Kris and Lisanne
October 2nd 2020. The girls used a Canon powershot SX270 HS, which had the release date of April 2013. It was released together with the SX280 HS camera. The two camera look very similar, here you can see and read about their characteristics. U/vornez wrote on October 2nd 2020: "Canon SX280 night time photo examples and what I think about them. Here are some Canon SX280 night time photo examples. After trying out the SX280 within the forest and around the farm, I'm starting to think that the night photos are slightly less suspicious than I previously thought. I've come to realize that the flash is rather inadequate and even if there is a full moon, the best kind of picture you would get is photo 1. This was taken on a level surface, with the full moonlight assisting the illumination of the photo. But that's the only full moonlight photo, the rest are in the pitch darkness of night. [..] Due to the inadequate flash, any photo you take under pitch darkness won't be able to see more than 5 metres in front of you. Example photos 2,3,4,5 were taken while on a 40 degree slope. Here you can tell how little detail exists within the photo after about 4 metres in front of you. The photos were taken close to the ground at a similar height. [...] If you try to take a distant photo of some trees that are 6 metres in front of you, the photo comes up with limited detail because the flash is so weak. Photo 7 & 8 demonstrate this. But also it explains why many photos are blank, photo 9 shows a tree 10 metres in front, but it captures nothing, just a black screen. When you edit the blank photo with Paint Shop Pro, the color histogram function can enhance that image by equalising relative brightness, showing photo 10. Photos 11 shows flash photography directly up a tree. Doing it to trees that are about 8 metres tall is a little effective, but if the tree was any taller there would be limitations. There are still many anomalies, including the photo showing the back of Kris's head. Is she taking it herself and why would she be taking it? Usually when people document their own injuries they would likely move their hair out the way to show the injury, which is possibly a torn ear from some kind of fall.
Also what the nightime photos are showing are those characteristic white orbs in the background. Apparently these white circles are the result of dust in the air, or maybe a contaminated lens, but there is a large number of them. It's possible the camera has been dropped or damaged, unless these nightime locations are particularly dusty, which I think is less likely. [..] But what I'm realizing is that this SX280 flash is really weak and in the pitch darkness of night, the photos I took had a similar lack of detail that was frustrating but indicates something just a tad less suspicious. In terms of how the investigation was carried out, personally I think the dutch investigators should have initially performed aerial surveillance of the north side of the summit using drones. If this was indeed an accident, there is really only a 2 by 2 square kilometer area that it could have occurred within. The drones would have had to have been top of the line high performance models with different angled cameras to see below the tree canopies, but many aren't even that expensive, relatively speaking and alot of them also have LiDAR which can create 3D terrain maps. This would allowed them to also rescan areas of interest and not cause safety hazards to their climbing teams by physically entering those hard to reach areas. I have also added some photos of the forest, under full moonlight conditions. Photos 12 - 17 show this, it's the remote Australian outback. Anyway, what are your thoughts?" SpentFabric replied: "Wow it’s really cool that you did this. The first thing that strikes me is how creepy any photos of random darkness will look. They just don’t evoke comforting thoughts no matter how innocent the reality might be. I think even if we knew what happened to the girls the photos would still feel unsettling. Really I interesting point about the orbs of light being dust though- that might indicate the photos were taken in an enclosed space like a cave. I always assumed they were rain drops but dust sends my mind in some new directions."
PurpleCabbageMonkey replied: "The SX280 has a pretty basic flash,
in auto ISO with lens at a wide angle, the
maximum coverage is 3.5m. Which is showed in both the night time photos and the examples here. But that is to illuminate an object, using it to attract attention from far would be possible, because the other person will see a flash in the dark from further than 3.5m. If possible, try the same test but see from how far you can see the flash in the dark. Aim at the ground, but also up in the air, perhaps with some trees. There were no helicopters flying that night, but it seems that there was a ground search action, but it stopped before the first nighttime photos were taken. [..] "
Vornez replied: "No it wasn't raining only a tiny amount an hour before. It's an orchard that has a stream running through the centre, It gets alot of moisture accumulating in the air at night. Google says the white orbs are reflections of dust in the air, I think it will turn out to be dust, insects or moisture. And he updated: "Tonight there was less moisture in the air and I couldn't get alot of white orbs to appear, have to wait to the early morning. Didn't have much luck with dust creating this effect either, but it did eventually rain & then I did a photo of a sprinkler & then inside a water tank. It's a great camera I really like it. Rain, Sprinkler"
Papercard replied: "Hmmm, interesting. This pic with the orbs looks like some some of the night pics. Thanks for providing these comparisons. Very helpful. Interesting to note the differences between the sprinkler and the raindrops. It looks like the "orbs" we see in the night photos are either raindrops or moisture/dust."
Armadillus34 replied: "I think these photos are completely staged to make the viewer believe the girls were still outside at the trail. In another thread someone mentioned that the twig with the pieces of the plastic bag is a self made fly squatter. So it probably wasn’t crafted by the girls. Furthermore there are two pics of the girls. One of Lisanne‘s jawline which was edited beforehand. Too good of a match if you ask me. Some people might have thought that it’s a male finger on the lens. And the pic from Kris is just a cutout of an earlier shot of her back taken on the trail. There is also to mention that it took only 18 seconds from the previous pic to shoot this photo. I mean with the scenario I’m imagining it doesn’t really matter but this pic from the back of their head seemed to be „perfect“ to let the viewer guess if it’s from the back or front and with no more information to gain from it. [..] To me it seems like the photographer is trying to trick us. He must be some narcissist. As I think the girls were abducted from the hot spring after they made it down the trail and were invited there, the people responsible for that, never held them captive near the trail area. That might also be a reason why there were only a few bones found (much easier to transport there) and the sniffing dogs didn’t finde a scent while checking the trail. And don’t forget the mysterious deaths of the young people who were linked to that photo of the hot springs. I know it’s all speculation at the end of the day. But the photo from Kris clearly shows that someone was trying to trick people into thinking she and Lisanne were at that area."
Papercard replied: "Great work here. Thanks for posting these images. In photo #10 - was it raining? What are the 'orbs' in this photo."
in auto ISO with lens at a wide angle, the
maximum coverage is 3.5m. Which is showed in both the night time photos and the examples here. But that is to illuminate an object, using it to attract attention from far would be possible, because the other person will see a flash in the dark from further than 3.5m. If possible, try the same test but see from how far you can see the flash in the dark. Aim at the ground, but also up in the air, perhaps with some trees. There were no helicopters flying that night, but it seems that there was a ground search action, but it stopped before the first nighttime photos were taken. [..] "Vornez replied: "No it wasn't raining only a tiny amount an hour before. It's an orchard that has a stream running through the centre, It gets alot of moisture accumulating in the air at night. Google says the white orbs are reflections of dust in the air, I think it will turn out to be dust, insects or moisture. And he updated: "Tonight there was less moisture in the air and I couldn't get alot of white orbs to appear, have to wait to the early morning. Didn't have much luck with dust creating this effect either, but it did eventually rain & then I did a photo of a sprinkler & then inside a water tank. It's a great camera I really like it. Rain, Sprinkler"
Papercard replied: "Hmmm, interesting. This pic with the orbs looks like some some of the night pics. Thanks for providing these comparisons. Very helpful. Interesting to note the differences between the sprinkler and the raindrops. It looks like the "orbs" we see in the night photos are either raindrops or moisture/dust."
Armadillus34 replied: "I think these photos are completely staged to make the viewer believe the girls were still outside at the trail. In another thread someone mentioned that the twig with the pieces of the plastic bag is a self made fly squatter. So it probably wasn’t crafted by the girls. Furthermore there are two pics of the girls. One of Lisanne‘s jawline which was edited beforehand. Too good of a match if you ask me. Some people might have thought that it’s a male finger on the lens. And the pic from Kris is just a cutout of an earlier shot of her back taken on the trail. There is also to mention that it took only 18 seconds from the previous pic to shoot this photo. I mean with the scenario I’m imagining it doesn’t really matter but this pic from the back of their head seemed to be „perfect“ to let the viewer guess if it’s from the back or front and with no more information to gain from it. [..] To me it seems like the photographer is trying to trick us. He must be some narcissist. As I think the girls were abducted from the hot spring after they made it down the trail and were invited there, the people responsible for that, never held them captive near the trail area. That might also be a reason why there were only a few bones found (much easier to transport there) and the sniffing dogs didn’t finde a scent while checking the trail. And don’t forget the mysterious deaths of the young people who were linked to that photo of the hot springs. I know it’s all speculation at the end of the day. But the photo from Kris clearly shows that someone was trying to trick people into thinking she and Lisanne were at that area."
Papercard replied: "Great work here. Thanks for posting these images. In photo #10 - was it raining? What are the 'orbs' in this photo."
David M. wrote about the videos of Kris' parents retracing their daughters steps
"...No, you can't see Boquete from here, so you also cannot get confused here... and think that you can just walk in a loop and back home. And therefore take the wrong path here." It's one that hadn't registered with me before now, but that's an interesting point that Hans Kremer notes at the 18.00 mark in this video-log of his recreation of the hike up and past the Mirador, and he also makes several other interesting observations soon after about the distance travelled by this time in the walk. He's there walking the route, so his observation has to be taken as having weight on the subject, and if you consider it, and give thought to the idea that the two friends were in fact well aware that this was a one-way path only, and not a route back to the town, then where does that leave us...? Hans Kremer was the first person to float the idea of the nighttime photographs being taken in some sort of 'cave' or protective area, he was also clear in his belief, or theory, that the two girls likely came to their critical moment somewhere before or at the Meadow area. And he doesn't believe the two ever thought this path was some natural loop and route that would take them back to Boquete… so if we took his firsthand observations as true and fair then it would raise again the possibility that either there is an unknown agency at work and a hidden pathway that branches off the official route, or that the two did indeed return to the Pianista. By their own choice, or under the influence of some other agency. All very interesting ideas. - But then if we follow Hans Kremers thoughts on the two and their route, how and why do their remains arrive at the point of being found close to, or at, Alto Romero, several kilometres away from the Pianista and Boquete….? A lot of understandable assumption is made from that fact of the remains being found so far away, means that the two of course had to have walked there, lost and falling victim to the terrain, injury, and starvation etc. It's logical to assume that after all given the scattering of the remains. And yet the subject here brings me back to the underappreciated fact that gets ignored - the discovery of the Backpack. *The discovery of this one item is absolutely the most critical and pivotal of this entire sad story. It is the keystone. *Because without it, we would know nothing. We would never have the wealth of photographs that tell and show these two on their holiday of a lifetime, we would never know their experiences in Panama, we would never see their journey to the Mirador, or their trip down the other side, and neither would we have their phone records. All we WOULD have is the last known sighting of the two being at a supermarket, and the fact that they vanish from the face of the earth..... just two faceless statistics. We would never have heard of Lisanne Froon or Kris Kremers, and their fate would remain a complete mystery.
"...No, you can't see Boquete from here, so you also cannot get confused here... and think that you can just walk in a loop and back home. And therefore take the wrong path here." It's one that hadn't registered with me before now, but that's an interesting point that Hans Kremer notes at the 18.00 mark in this video-log of his recreation of the hike up and past the Mirador, and he also makes several other interesting observations soon after about the distance travelled by this time in the walk. He's there walking the route, so his observation has to be taken as having weight on the subject, and if you consider it, and give thought to the idea that the two friends were in fact well aware that this was a one-way path only, and not a route back to the town, then where does that leave us...? Hans Kremer was the first person to float the idea of the nighttime photographs being taken in some sort of 'cave' or protective area, he was also clear in his belief, or theory, that the two girls likely came to their critical moment somewhere before or at the Meadow area. And he doesn't believe the two ever thought this path was some natural loop and route that would take them back to Boquete… so if we took his firsthand observations as true and fair then it would raise again the possibility that either there is an unknown agency at work and a hidden pathway that branches off the official route, or that the two did indeed return to the Pianista. By their own choice, or under the influence of some other agency. All very interesting ideas. - But then if we follow Hans Kremers thoughts on the two and their route, how and why do their remains arrive at the point of being found close to, or at, Alto Romero, several kilometres away from the Pianista and Boquete….? A lot of understandable assumption is made from that fact of the remains being found so far away, means that the two of course had to have walked there, lost and falling victim to the terrain, injury, and starvation etc. It's logical to assume that after all given the scattering of the remains. And yet the subject here brings me back to the underappreciated fact that gets ignored - the discovery of the Backpack. *The discovery of this one item is absolutely the most critical and pivotal of this entire sad story. It is the keystone. *Because without it, we would know nothing. We would never have the wealth of photographs that tell and show these two on their holiday of a lifetime, we would never know their experiences in Panama, we would never see their journey to the Mirador, or their trip down the other side, and neither would we have their phone records. All we WOULD have is the last known sighting of the two being at a supermarket, and the fact that they vanish from the face of the earth..... just two faceless statistics. We would never have heard of Lisanne Froon or Kris Kremers, and their fate would remain a complete mystery.
It is accepted that the Backpack was discovered because someone dropped it at Alto Romero to be discovered, for probably close to two months after the two girls vanished this bag and its contents was in the possession of someone and that someone almost certainly would have tried to access those phones and would have viewed the Camera contents. But perhaps the prospect of the reward just offered was too tempting, and after having the bag for several weeks the decision is made to place everything available into the bag and leave it to be discovered, a very literal red flare that would bring authorities to Alto Romero to examine it and jump to the 'obvious' conclusion that it was washed downstream, and so leading to a search upstream and the quick discovery of some equally convenient scattering of remains - a boot with Lisanne Froon foot found behind a fallen tree of all places, shorts from Kris Kremers found caught in an eddy in the river after several weeks worth of rains and flowing river. A feat almost as incredible as a bag containing glasses, camera, and phones found in perfect condition and still working despite a possible near three kilometer journey down the rubble strewn river channel.... If the bag was planted then it is absolutely logical to think that the (few) remains found were too. The Bag was intended as a very deliberate signal, perhaps someone was too tempted by the large pot of reward money being offered for word on the fates of the two girls, after all whoever placed it there at Alto Romero may well have been the one who doctored the night-time photos and tries to erase the enigmatic Photo #509, clearly a photograph that showed something inconvenient and would divert away from the narrative that the two girls had sadly gotten lost and were victims of their own inexperience and the unforgiving Panamanian jungles. But if we accept the observations Hans Kremers makes of his own walk of the route the idea that some third party came into the story of Lisanne and Kris that day does intrigue, as if so it explains not just the sudden halt in their photographing of their journey, but the strange phone activity over the next several days. It is worth thinking on the fact that the backpack is found in Alto Romero, and the (few) remains just upstream from it in and along the river, someone wants to show that the two died somewhere upstream. That is the story they want to be known. And to add weight to it and 'confirm' it there are those nighttime photographs to support it. Whether they are legitimate, or purposely taken to support the idea that the two were Lost.... well there lies an intriguing question. Both are possibilities, though if you follow the idea that the Backpack being planted also means the remains were planted too then there does lie the possibility that the claims of the night-time photos being staged carry some credible weight after all. But if you follow this chain of logic then you have to ask the questions as to why, and where, were the two murdered? Surely not in Alto Romero? Of course it might be argued that someone simply scavenged the backpack and its contents from the found remains of the two girls, but then you have the reality of the large reward that was offered would carry a better chance of being claimed if the person holding the bag simply claimed that they had found it with the remains, and led the authorities to the exact location of the two's bodies. For some reason the person holding the bag for those several weeks, and who planted it to be found, either didn't think of this obvious and simple approach, or were too nervous to take the risk. A guilty conscience, or fear of being found out?"
I replied: "Hi David, yes that was a good point from Hans. And on that first of April in 2014, the weather was impeccable and they could see freely for kilometers ahead, also at that meadow. I think they would have realised much sooner already that they had to return, but in the hypothetical case that they somehow didn't then this would have been the moment to know that they were nót heading towards Boquete. They were together, one of the two must have had that realisation by then. Aside from the fact that staff at the language school saw them read the info file on this Pianista hike beforehand and also found their search history in the computer there, showing they did look up info about the Pianista Trail. And it told them about the need to turn around. They were precise planners in normal life... Such an important detail wouldn't be missed by them, I think.. Yes he believed back then and still seems to, that Kris and Lisanne didn't keep walking and didn't get lost. But that they met the wrong people. That someone else forced them to move on, or go elsewhere. Kris' parents did not see eye to eye with Lisanne's parents in that respect. Alex Humphrey also vanished without a trace there and from that British backpacker no bag was found. Yet, his missing case story is well known. Not as well as this disappearance, but I blame that more on K+L being beautiful young western females and ther ebeing so many clues in this case. Had no backpack been found, then K+L would have been another statistic yes, but also another set of young European tourists who'd gone up in smoke so to say, in the area of Boquete. That wouldn't have looked good on the part of authorities there and it would make people instantly assume the worst I think; murderers or cartels capturing them and erasing all traces. I believe that authorities had much more to gain from having that backpack found (planted).. Now the authorities make it all point towards 'silly' Kris and Lisanne getting lost due to their own inattentiveness and poor planning. And the man who found the bag, the partner of the woman who found it near the rice paddy, has been said to have been identified on photos as the farm aide. I agree, if the bag was planted then it is not far-fetched to accept that the bones may have been planted too. Why would they drop their bag with all their possessions and not ask for help while they were at that location? It makes no sense and some of those remains were found upstream, not downstream. So the theory of the river depositing the remains along the way is also not all that logical suddenly. I also agree that someone was possibly trying to recreate another narrative and it was done good enough to fool a lot of people, who till this day call anyone thinking as wildly we do a conspiracy nutcase. Despite the existing inconsistencies. But it was clearly done well enough to allow this case to be closed and ruled an Accident."
A theory was discussed: the $30k reward was pivotal August of 2020
FreshMooNL wrote: "Okay, so here’s my theory. Maybe somebody else has also come up with this, but I haven’t seen it before. My theory revolves around the $30.000 reward. The girls went missing on April 1. I think they met the wrong people on the pianista trail and were killed that same night, so the Foul Play scenario. Initially, the killers were planning of simply getting rid of the bodies by eg using lime/lye. They even made a start with this. But then, when the girls’ parents came to join the search party on April 6, they unexpectedly offered a (huge) reward of $30.000 to anyone with relevant information. The people involved in the killing then thought, let’s try and get our hands on that money. They staged the April 8 photos as a distraction from the fact the girls were already gone by then. Then they waited a couple of months and then planted the backpack, phones etc., conveniently near the route the lady from Alto Romero took (or maybe even pointed her that way). In my opinion this theory answers all questions:
-That is why the remains of the girls were found in the state they were in (almost intact foot, bleached pelvic bone). To leave as little traces as they could, the killers used small parts of the girls’ remains but enough so police could determine it was them.
-That explains all the questions why the girls didn’t leave any messages on their phones or the camera. They had perished already on April 1.
-That is why the back pack, phones etc were in a good state. They were kept safely by the killers to make sure they could be used as proof. And thus could lead to the $30K reward.
-That is why the photos on the camera were taken 7 days after they went missing. Not by the girls, but by the killers who found out that there was a reward two days prior on April 6 when the girls’ parents came to Boquete. They wanted to make sure that there was “evidence” of an accident and wanted people to think the girls were still alive, even after almost a week in the jungle.
-That explains why the girls’ parents went with the “accident-scenario”. Because if they stuck to the foul play scenario, they would’ve had to pay the woman from Alto Romero for finding a clue. In the Lost in the Wild episode, you can see that the people from the Alto Romero village are disappointed they didn’t get any reward money. If the parents had pursued the foul play scenario, they might’ve ended up having to pay the killers. I think the Dutch police probably are on this scenario also and advised the parents to not pursue it any further. [..] The hair photo was another give away to me. The “clean hair”- theory is then also explained. And in the reward-theory, the #509 picture can be explained. Lots of time and opportunity to erase."
-That is why the back pack, phones etc were in a good state. They were kept safely by the killers to make sure they could be used as proof. And thus could lead to the $30K reward.
-That is why the photos on the camera were taken 7 days after they went missing. Not by the girls, but by the killers who found out that there was a reward two days prior on April 6 when the girls’ parents came to Boquete. They wanted to make sure that there was “evidence” of an accident and wanted people to think the girls were still alive, even after almost a week in the jungle.
-That explains why the girls’ parents went with the “accident-scenario”. Because if they stuck to the foul play scenario, they would’ve had to pay the woman from Alto Romero for finding a clue. In the Lost in the Wild episode, you can see that the people from the Alto Romero village are disappointed they didn’t get any reward money. If the parents had pursued the foul play scenario, they might’ve ended up having to pay the killers. I think the Dutch police probably are on this scenario also and advised the parents to not pursue it any further. [..] The hair photo was another give away to me. The “clean hair”- theory is then also explained. And in the reward-theory, the #509 picture can be explained. Lots of time and opportunity to erase."
Clemfandango100 replied: "I agree. Been reading about this sad case for a few weeks now and what you say seems the most probable explanation I've heard. The night pictures are the give away for me. Look at how these 2 friends recorded lots of their activities...before they abruptly stopped doing so. Even if injured, there would surely be a video or photo of one or both of the girls, showing something more than random sky and jungle - and/or some sort of 'here's what happened to us' evidence on the phones. If you are able to press a button, that's what you would do IMO. The 'hair only' picture adds to this...I think it's just a callous attempt to convince us they were alive at this point."MultiMidden replied: "That's certainly a very good possibility. If you read some of the posts at the time by Lee Zeltzer (archived on Scarlet's blog) and people responding to him there was a lot of noise about Kris and Lisanne not having got lost. He even had to ask people to just calm the hell down about it. They might have been planning to place the backpack somewhere anyway (assuming they were making the emergency calls) to just calm things down and make it look like Kris and Lisanne really did just get lost. However, without the prospect of a reward there is no way they would have left some bones to be discovered or even gone to the trouble of making the night photos. $30000 is a lot of money for poor people in Panama. Sadly, I fear human nature being what it is the failure to pay that money (rightly or wrongly) pretty much guarantees that many locals won't cooperate with any future attempts to find out what happened."
Neverbeentooclever replied: "Not a new theory. They didn't offer a 30K reward on April 6th. That was a 2500 reward. The 30K reward was not issued until April 30th. It garnered no info. It was upped to 40K in mid-May. No info aside from a false alarm tip. The backpack was not planted for another month. It really wasn't until the search was expanded into neighboring countries that the backpack and bones all miraculously turned up. And if they were killed immediately, why was Kris's pin still being entered for a few days? [..] There isn't much to say the reward had anything to do with it. Obviously the people who found it would have liked to collect, but a lot of time passed before the reward announcement and the placement of the remnants. Personally, I think whomever did it wasn't all that concerned about the money. They just wanted the searches to stop. There is a lot of shady, drug business done on those back trails that were being searched. Harder to do if people are looking for the girls. Both phones started out at 50% on April 1st. And yeah, it's very weird they were able to use the phone so long. I believe the last time the iPhone was used it was on for about an hour before being turned off the final time. So yeah."
FreshMooNL replied: "My theories: Kris was the more feisty one. I’m Dutch, we’re very independent women, and I can totally imagine her not succumbing but just being like “hell no! I’m not going down without a fight”. Maybe Lisanne chose another strategy. Not saying in the least Lisanne didn’t put up a fight until the very end; but they just might’ve chosen different approaches. On your 2nd point: I think the whole village was in on it. Looking at it from their perspective: I can understand where they’re coming from. It’s a lot of money, even for European standards. And at the end of the day, they didn’t know the girls personally. The emergency calls were staged IMO. I think the timelines were just a diversion. Guys just trying to prove that the girls actually tried to call 911. When everyone agrees that their call pattern was extraordinary. To say the least..."Literaryesque replied: "100% AGREE, thank you!! I also think that the whole village was in on it....although that idea sounds bonkers to me, at the same time. It’s difficult for most Americans to grasp, I think, because we (I’m American) tend to be more individual-focused and less group-focused. For instance, I can see a solo American coming forward to “do the right thing,” throwing everyone else to prison, and being genuinely proud of himself/herself and genuinely glorified in the press for doing so. In Latin America, especially in such a remote and traditional community, and many other places, you’d be killed for such an act (or even the idea of an act). What I’m saying is, I think cultural norms and values are very important to take into serious account, and American sleuths tend to overlook the possibility a large number of people knew. Secondly, K+L both had well-sculpted personalities, it seems. Those who knew them tend to describe them in homologous terms. I think it totally likely Kris, more feisty/ballsy, was killed first. Lisanne was either traumatized/paralyzed by Kris’s death or decided cooperation, steeliness, and hope that she’d be rescued were the way to get through it. The preservation of Lisanne’s bones and skin (the skin forensics really creep me out) still makes no sense to me....especially considering the state of Kris’s remains. Great post!"
Sticky-me replied: "I think lye takes time. What is weird to me it seems like they either put Kris in it first and waited with Lisanne, or only put Kris in it. The fact that the bone had that bleaching mark... And Lisanne's skin popping out randomly in August in almost excellent shape?"
FreshMooNL replied: "Yeah that is strange. It comes to mind that either they found a way to preserve her remains or she was alive for longer than the public thinks. Which is a horrible thought. The only explanation I have on how someone in Panama would have the know how on this type of crime in this region, is that Panama is said to be a known drug trafficking route. And maybe that would generate the type of knowledge needed to make people seem to have vanished from the face of the earth. [..] The killers probably started the whole lye/lime process with Kris. IMO they might’ve killed her first, because maybe she resisted to whatever was done to her. The whole “getting rid of” scheme had started, but then the killers found out about the reward and tried a different route with Lisanne. [..] As the absence of photo 509 suggests, the camera was tampered with. I always found the hair photo very strange. It stuck out like a sore thumb between those night photos. I think it was another attempt to try and trick authorities into the “got lost” scenario.
Myliama replied: "Every theory that comes up is a good one, but pretty much all of them don't work with the ''phone code'' thingy. That PIN thing really is a problem in every scenario. Makes you wonder. [..] If you hold someone captive, you don't take their belongings. No way on Earth you leave them their phones... unless you're absolutely 100% sure you know they can't do anything with them since there's no signal."
Papercard replied: "The PIN theory works in the foul play scenario if the following occurred - K&L are help captive, with their phones still on them. i.e. - the captors don't take anything away from them, just keep them hostage somewhere. On the odd occasion, when the captors are slightly distracted (i.e. - outside doing something, or in another room for a short while) - they both discretely try and call emergency services. After the morning of 5 April, Kris is either murdered or dies by some other means, or perhaps is unconscious. Lisanne continues to try and use her phone with the wrong PIN to try and call for help whenever she can (without the perp's knowledge). Would also explain why K never shared her PIN with L, as she never got a chance to (by being held captive - maybe too scared to communicate this in case they got caught, or K's death was so sudden and unexpected L never had a chance to ask her). Whoever took them was extremely confident with knowledge of the area. They knew there was absolutely no way they could get phone signal out there, so didn't bother taking the phones away. In fact, they thought they would destroy the phones at the end of the whole ordeal anyway, so didn't care if the girls used their phones for anything. That plan obviously changed later on with the dumping of the backpack. The perps knew they could hide the girls from view at any given time, as the searches were being conducted. They knew the area like the back of their hand, and knew they could keep the girls captive without being detected. They probably also sufficiently terrified the girls into submission as well. Maybe allowing them to think they'll be released if they kept quiet. Even if the authorities came close, they were able to hide the girls from them at very quick notice."PurpleCabbageMonkey replied: "There is another possible scenario here, one that does not necessarily means foul play. The girls got hurt, but was found by some of the locals from a village. They (or maybe only one is still alive at that time) try to contact the emergency services. The injuries are so severe that the villagers keep them there. They sleep and the villagers try to care for them, waking them at specific times. On the 5th, after the last call in the morning both are now passed away. The villagers try to use the phone, but no success. Someone plays with the camera one night. Something like this. The villagers are scared to have deceased foreigners in their village, maybe they have something illegal farming going on the side, maybe they just don't want the attention, knowing very well people will blame them for the girls. Later, perhaps after asking for help, they plant some evidence far away from their village. It is flimsy, but still probable, I think. I just don't see kidnappers allowing the girls to have their phones with them."
Papercard replied: "Interesting theory, but why would the villagers wait 5 days to get help? Even if they came across the injured girls and took them in for a day or so. By day 2 or 3, wouldn't one or two of the villagers just make the trek into town to go and get help? Even if they were unable to get phone reception in the village. Or they could have just walked to the top of the Mirador and got cell reception from there to inform authorities about the girls. Why wouldn't the villagers want to get help? They would want to get rid of the girls as quickly as possible so someone else could care for them. Injured girls would be a burden on the village, they would be more than happy if emergency services came to take them away, imo."
PurpleCabbageMonkey replied: "I work in a bomb protected building where there are 99% of the time no cellphone reception. However I have received phone calls while I'm in the building, to my surprise. If I am up to no good, I will under no circumstances allow the girls to have their phones with them. Just in case of that 1%. But that is just my opinion. If the village had some illegal activity going on, like growing for the cartel or something, they wouldn't want any attention on them. It is also possible that the injuries were so severe, they knew there was no hope. There is the broken pelvic bone and the crushed foot and that is just what we know. It is just a maybe scenario. The problem is that with no idea what happened between 1 April and the time the remains were discovered, we can only speculate. To be honest, most of the time I am leaning towards the girls disappeared after their walk, while in town. But that is a whole scenario on its own."
PurpleCabbageMonkey replied: "I work in a bomb protected building where there are 99% of the time no cellphone reception. However I have received phone calls while I'm in the building, to my surprise. If I am up to no good, I will under no circumstances allow the girls to have their phones with them. Just in case of that 1%. But that is just my opinion. If the village had some illegal activity going on, like growing for the cartel or something, they wouldn't want any attention on them. It is also possible that the injuries were so severe, they knew there was no hope. There is the broken pelvic bone and the crushed foot and that is just what we know. It is just a maybe scenario. The problem is that with no idea what happened between 1 April and the time the remains were discovered, we can only speculate. To be honest, most of the time I am leaning towards the girls disappeared after their walk, while in town. But that is a whole scenario on its own."
I myself would say in this regard that I agree, I also think that the phone use is a real problem in a foul play scenario. Even if there were perpetrators and even if they knew the area has no cellphone reception, then it is still way too risky to allow your victims to keep their phones. They could have written draft messages on it in a language the 3rd party doesn't speak and they could have dropped those phones in the jungle, with the risk of search teams finding it. There goes your cover. Hence why I personally think that those phones were firmly in possession of a 3rd party after day one. Granted; it would require some intelligence, but even the sudden attempts from day 5 on to enter Kris' phone without a PIN and with the wrong PIN codes, would have been a smart move from a 3rd party. Without any words, they simply showed the world that kris "died" on day 5. Alone out in the jungle, of course... It is a straight forward explanation to just assume that Kris and Lisanne were out in the jungle by themselves and Kris died or was incapacitated by the afternoon of day 5, and somehow never gave Lisanne the PIN codes of her mobile device. But then you are stuck with a lot of OTHER problems and inconsistencies. For instance: why did these girls never call their parents then, or Kris' boyfriend, or the host families? Why did they only try to call during office hours then and never in the evening? Why did they turn off the samsumg phone right after it made a short connection to 112 on day 2? The girls would never do that. They would have tried calling a second time right away; not switch the phone off for a whole hour, as was the case here. And the list of inconsistencies goes on and on then when you assume thery were out there all alone, 'lost'. Somehow a foul play scenario seems more fitting with the (forensic) evidence in this case." 
Anonymous wrote me on October 7th, 2020: [I translated it in English from Portugese with the help of google translate] "Hello Scarlett, how are you? I was fascinated by this case. I really was almost completely sure of a dirty game, and now I have no doubt that it is because of the way the boy Osmar was in his last days. Everything indicates that it is him, and it is Kris and Froon in the lake photo, and I believe he knew about something serious, and his conscience betrayed him. the dog was startled by one of the men or maybe he never went on the trail, since they were not alone, i hear a lot about organ trafficking ... but i think it would be something unusual. My point of view: Two beautiful girls, alone, venturing into the South American jungle {here in Brazil we have a high rate of rapes.} I believe they were betrayed by the naivety of not knowing the danger and were captured by cruel people. I think that because these are two girls, that is, two crimes, the author or authors knew of the need to plant the 'Perfect Crime'. First they eliminated alleged witnesses, probably 'Osmar', and then they set up a scenario of disappearance in the jungle. Maybe Kris's head is severed, they look like index fingers and thumbs on Kris's photo ... I think this crime was planned, that is, they were being watched by someone much earlier. And hardly this crime was committed by a single man, chemicals on the bodies, The calls were made outside business hours, clothes intact .... Unfortunately this case will only go ahead with a mega Netflix documentary, where pathologists, mountaineers can take and biologicals to the site."
I replied: "Thank you for your comment. Yeh I agree, the whole Osman story in all this is really quite something. Unless someone refuses to take that swimming photo seriously, I think it is hard to not believe that Osman and some of his friends were in some way involved in this disappearance. We identified Osman as the youth in that photo with 99,9% certainty. The same goes for Jose Manuel (who also died soon after). People over there already knew through the gossip system that Osman had a photo of the girls on his mobile phone. People also knew about this photo existing, but because the local police confiscated that phone, we never actually saw it. Until a source in Panama leaked it recently, together with the girls' diaries (verified legit) and most of the night photos. So I personally do trust this swimming photo to be the much talked about incriminating photo on Osman's phone. I am not sure about organ harvesting. I did hear from multiple people close to this case that they believe it was in the end a cartel order and involvement, and that organ trade was also involved. But it is very hard for me, over on this side of the planet, to imagine organs being successfully harvested in a jungle. I mean, you need professional hospitals for that and a whole organization. But apparently it is naive of me to think that couldn't be arranged by powerful people over there. Who will say.... - Thanks for acknowledging that indeed people can be behind this 'perfect crime' set up. I think there are many criminals and killers who mess with crime scenes and who try to throw investigators off guard. Planting a bag and some body parts and faking some phone calls and night photos, in my view, is not that outrageous. Some call it a Hollywood movie scenario, but I would say to these people; watch some more real crime documentaries then. Reality is a lot more extreme than fiction often. So yeh... an orchestrated attempt to manipulate in this case, and the authorities in Panama were all too happy to play along :( I also wonder if that head photo of Kris' hair is a zoomed in photo of her severed head yes. The hair seems too clean for someone who spent 8 days in the jungle without washing. Perhaps the school was involved also in attracting these girls, pretending to arrange work for them, and then tipping local people off about them being in Boquete with no work.... They knew about their hiking plans, as all those hikes were booked through a coworker at the language school. They also seemed to have been incorrect about having last seen the girls around 13:00 on the day of their disappearance. By then they were long past the summit of the Pianista Trail, going by the camera info which is the official timeline according to all the investigators. So why did they 'lie' about it? Why did the staff mess up the arrangement of volunteer work for the girls? Or was it the fault of workers at the school Aura? Why couldn't they start that Monday? Endless questions and no answers...."Someone who wants to stay anonymous wrote me on October 7th, 2020:
"I have a civilian name and details to appear as civilian. My true identity I cannot reveal. It is quite simple. You seem to have a quality of truthfulness and bravery. So I chose you to divulge or not divulge the information I provide. Kris Kremmers and Lisanne Froon. They were killed by members of the Panamanian cartel responsible for trafficking cocaine over the central divide into the caribbean sea and onto Florida. The scam is similar in other jungle countries, and has been responsible for more than 100 disappearances, including local farmers amd residents of Panama. The hostel and "work for foreigners" in Boquet has been infiltrated by the cartel. In exchange for money, they identify potential candidates that fit a criteria. If any candidates are wanted, they are watched. If there is an opportunity to kidnapp this is chosen. In the situation of the girls, the notification came from the language school to the cartel. Once the girls were identified as wanted, they were seen walking by themselves. A kidnapping was set up, but was not administered. The cartel was informed by the shopkeep at the start of the trailhead, that the girls were going on the Panaista trail. The villagers were notified by the cartel. The villagers are responsible for the apprehension, without severe damage, of the "cartel property", the girls. Hence why all their equipment was dry, and also hence why just that village happened to find the items. They had found the villagers stash/pick up spot. This photo is Ms Froon under the manmade jungle structure, which clearly has the mask in the right hand corner painted red and black. This mask is a symbol of the jungle cartel, and to scare and warn off farmers and villagers. At this point they are approaching the village. At the transaction, the full amount was paid by the cartel to the villagers, so my team assumed this to be where the villagers ambushed the girls from behind, forcing them to run towards the village deeper into the jungle. This is an ambush technique used often here, as there are many pathways entrenched by high rock wall. This is where the girls attempted there call for help, which was cut short by the capture. Taken to the village, they forced the two girls to strip, this is a cartel made theory to throw law enforcement off. Later the clothes are to be placed further down the river to indicate a fall into the river. This is a false ruse first used in columbia and brazil cartels. The villagers, are in fact bound to the cartel, if they choose anything except what the cartel say, they will be executed also. But they can leave the village and never come back, but very few choose this option. Once the cartel arrived, we do not know what they did to them, but we do know a certain person used for transport of organs to drug lords was contacted and met with. This is my own speculation, but I think this is why only certain body parts were found, and absolutely no evidence of predatory animals were present. The usual depraved action involve humiliation, rape, torture and eventually death. Indication that their organs were kept, to be sold via cartel means and the black market. Once certain time had passed, the villagers then placed the objects and called authorities. I'm so sorry that this has happened. Im sorry for the earths beautiful places constantly disgusted by murder. I have seen too much in my line of work, and having been monitoring the cartel during this time, it has been too hard to keep. Maybe I will actually fall asleep tonight, You can choose what you will with this email. My civilian name is X, as in the email. I am retired now."Palm_tree_dude wrote in January of 2020:
"I don't think it was as simple as the girls just "got lost and died". I was in Boquete in 2012 collecting seeds from palm trees and other rare exotics. While I was there, I ended up walking the Pianista trail myself. The same trail that these two girls supposedly disappeared on. So here's my two cents...1.) The trail isn't as hard as you think and the path is well maintained and clearly visible.
2.) There aren't any other paths leading off from it, so you can only really go up towards the summit, or back down again; along the same path. You would have to be pretty stupid to wander off course into the jungle and lose sight of the trail. The girls may well have wandered off course, but I seriously doubt that. If you go off the path, the terrain suddenly becomes very difficult, which acts as a deterrent, so you stay on the trail.
3.) I passed maybe 100 people on my way up to the top and back down, which took around 5 hours in total as I was stopping to photo-document flora and to collect seeds. Out of the 100 or so people, there was around a 50:50 mix of tourists and locals. So plenty of activity on the trail. It wouldn't have been hard to spot people from a distance if you wandered off, or for those people to hear someone shout if you got lost, or in trouble.
4.) There are houses and people's back yards all along the trail, especially in the lower half. But even in the upper sections towards the summit, there are a few shacks and buildings, often with animals and people sitting outside. Say one shack every 150 yards. If a tourist was in trouble, or had an emergency, they could almost certainly reach one of these buildings, or find another tourist or native on the trail. Unless they had stupidly walked far away from the path and got lost (not likely).
So that would suggest that something did happen to these girls on the Pianista trail, perhaps on the way back down from the summit, which we know they reached. And by that I mean they were dragged off the trail and assaulted, abducted, raped, murdered etc. Something almost certainly happened to them in my opinion. The other possibility is that after reaching the summit, instead of turning around, they carried on down the other side of the valley, via a rarely used, poorly marked trail which has warning signs up advising people not to walk down it. I seriously doubt they would have gone much further beyond this point though, as I travelled maybe 200 yards past it and then remember saying "no fucking way" before turning back. Not because the trail isn't visible (you can still see the trail), but rather because of all the mud, running water, uneven terrain and weird voodoo shit hanging in the trees. I didn't get anywhere near the supposed monkey bridges where the Panama government claims the girls may have fallen off, into the Serpentine river. Nobody goes that way, especially two young girls in my opinion. I saw several other people turning back as well, quite quickly. There's no way the two girls would have carried on down that route, past the first stream due to the poor terrain and creepiness of the area. I'm talking animal skulls in trees and ceremonial bracelets and bones suspended from trees on string. I guess that's native land you don't want to be treading on. Although I saw a very friendly, smiling native walk past me on that part of the trail, but I wasn't prepared to hang about there. Neither was the group behind me.So in my opinion, they were either abducted/murdered on the Pianista trail, while on the way back down, or they were captured shortly after going down the other side of the summit. Probably just after that first stream, where shit begins to get weird. I find it very hard to believe that they would have deliberately and carelessly wandered off the trail and got lost in this area. Again, common sense prevails. Two young girls wouldn't have wandered off trail, right into the jungle like that. There's photo's of them at that first stream, past the summit, but I reckon they would have turned back after that and got attacked and taken shortly after. The question is... who did it? And if they did genuinely get lost, they must have been crazy to travel that route I described, beyond the summit. Like completely fearless, naive and oblivious to the dangers. Having looked into this, a lot of stuff doesn't make sense, especially the bags with belongings 'washing up' in perfect condition on the river bank, shortly after a $30,000 reward was offered. And the deleted photo on the camera? We'll probably never know exactly what happened, but foul play was almost certainly involved!"
Jacky wrote me on September 28th, 2020:
[I translated parts in English from Dutch] "Hi Scarlet, thank you for this blog! You did a lot of work here, gathering all the information about this case and write it all down. It took me weeks to read it and most of the links you shared. There is something that stands out for me. It is the time Osman was found dead and at the same moment the wrong pin was used to access the iPhone. I think this Osman guy is involved, together with some other guys – gang related or not, from the very beginning and that he was the one who took the phones away from the girls after the first 112 calls. He got the pin for the iPhone from Kris and changed it into another one. So he was the one who had access until April 5th in the morning. Now I know he went missing on April 4th but was found on April 5th around 1 PM. Maybe he met with the other guys on April 4th to talk things through. Could it be that the others were not pleased with him? Or was he not pleased with the way things were going and he told them that? After the last phone access in the morning of April 5th an altercation followed which led to his death. They put him on the place where they met the day before and where he was found. There is a small window of time here, between 10.50 am and 1 PM. Is there information about the time he was deceased? At 1.37 PM the others tried to get access to the phone but realized that Osman was the only one who knew the code. It seems strange to me that he is found in the surrounding where he had the family picnic. That would be the first place where the family would go searching. Did they search that day or did they wait until the next day? What is your thought about this?
I replied: "Thanks Jacky. Yes interesting point. I think you may be onto something. I wasn't sure about the exact details surrounding Osmans death and believed he was found on April 4th, but I just read up on some on his death and news reports actually say that he was reported missing by his family on April 4th. From what I understand from the news reports, the family had a picnic, they all packed up to go home and Osman then said he had to go back for a quick pee. But he never returned. And he was reported missing on April 4th by his families, around 6 PM. He was searched for until Saturday April 5th, when he was found around 12:50 PM. So he was missing for less than a day. So Osman went missing on April 4th. And the iPhone from Kris received its correct pin codes until the next day, April 5th, 13:37 PM. Then from April 6th onward did it not anymore. So if Osman was found on April 5th at 12:50, and he was already in rigor mortis by then, we can assume that he was dead for some time already by then.... Then I think it will be very tight to have him alive and entering the right iPhone code that same day. - He may indeed not have been dead right away that Friday, but snatched by people involved and forced to switch the phone on one more time with his own codes. Then from the afternoon of the day he was found dead, the phone no longer got the right code. But I don't know... If they snatched him and held him against his will on April 4th and ok, lets stretch it and add the morning of April 5th, why then didn't he just tell them the right codes from the iPhone and they continued to use the codes after getting rid of him? - I do also think that he may have been considered a considered a liability by the others perhaos, as his mother already told the press that her son had been acting strange the days prior to his death. Restless, anxious, strange. He may have just become too much of a risk for the others to keep around..."Jacky replied: "Goodmorning Scarlet. Yes, I also thought that he was found in rigor mortis position, and that this would be a bottleneck. But now I have dived into the topic and I found the following:
Rigor mortis (postmortum rigidity)
"It will normally set in between 1 and 4 hours after death. Chemical processes after death cause muscles to stiffen.It first affects the extremities, such as arms, legs and the head. Rigor mortis affects the small muscles in the skin, causing goosebumps. Eight hours after death, this so-called rigid stiffness of the body is complete: after 48 hours it decreases again as a result of various decomposition processes in the body. If there is death due to or during a physical stress situation (such as a heart attack while running), rigor mortis will set in sooner than if the body was in a resting state before death. Contrary to what some people think, rigor mortis will occur more quickly in a high ambient temperature than in a cold ambient temperature. This is because the underlying chemical reaction occurs faster at higher temperatures. (The rigidity does not involve contraction of the muscle tissue)."
This information certainly makes the scenario possible and fits the timeline. The position in which he was found appears to me as if he were lying on the ground trying to defend himself. Due to stress, it is possible that rigor mortis sets in quickly, I read. It turns out that this process is faster at a warm temperature than at a cold temperature. Maybe this Osman was pissed off with the others, or did he refuse to tell them the pin code. Things got out of hand and before they knew it, they killed him. I also believe that Osman is involved, together with the guide's son."
I replied: "Thanks Jacky. It's an interesting overlap of times indeed. Also interesting what you write about special circumstances that can cause rigor mortis to occur more quickly. I had already read that a strange body position, such as the one in which Osman was found for instance, occurs more often when someone died as the result of murder (as opposed to natural death, when this strange cramped unnatural position is more rare to find). The circumstances in which he went missing and then ended up dead... it could have certainly added to his sense of stress. And he already was stressed to begin with, according to his mother, in the days before he disappeared. When we add the local circumstances of warm temperatures to the mix (indeed, it was good, warm weather that week in Boquete), all this could in theory indeed extract hours from those standard 8 hours needed for rigor mortis to set in. If those news articles are correct, then Osman was found around 13:00 PM on Saturday the 5th. And he must have been in the water for a few hours or so beforehand, even with the most 'optimistic' calculations. Indeed, then Osman himself could theoretically have been able to enter the very last correct PIN codes at 10:50 am and then be killed immediately afterwards. Then get dumped in that same river where they had picked him up the day prior. I am not sure if two hours would be enough for rigor mortis to set in the way it did with his body tbh, but perhaps it could. But his body didn't look bloated or anything, which you often see when a body is in the water for a long time. So it may be that he was placed there really only shortly before ... Interesting theory. It is a strange occurrence that those codes were suddenly no longer entered correctly, five days in. If the girls had possession of their own phones at the time, you would normally expect that after five miserable frantic days together, out in the jungle, they would have remembered each other's PIN codes, or store them somewhere, such as on their digital camera. Especially by the time it became clear that Lisanne's Samsung phone was quickly running out of battery."
Power-pixie wrote on October 16, 2020:"I’ve followed this case a little bit, I’m in the camp of foul play since everyone’s been on here this year still discussing this case. I think these young ladies were targeted from the day they arrived in either Costa Rica or Panama. I don’t know how much contact they made with people who may have had ill intentions, scouts, etc who are experienced enough to set up girls like these after observing them since they had arrived. To me it is not uncommon knowledge that every now and then that unsuspecting tourists can become victims to human traffickers, thieves, etc and end up lost or dead. Using common sense and being a little aware of your surroundings helps, but it comes with experience too. Their diaries give me the indication they were not fools, but they could be fooled, given their perspective as naive kids from Europe in a very intriguing place like Panama because life is looked at differently in such places and you cannot let your common sense go adrift. As for the two Dutch girls, Kris and Lisanne, I think they were profiled and then lured. It happens in different ways, but it can happen. The hiking to the Il Pianista etc has been done numerous times by many tourists who continue to claim that it is a straight forward trail back and forth. You can even see the difference between conditions of the trail in the photos in the 2nd link and in the photos of Lisanne and Kris at the base/start of the trail. K & L had better conditions based on those last trail photos. I also think the Panamanian authorities who handled the investigation like Ms. Betzaida Pitti who was later taken off the case and replaced, grossly mishandled the evidence. One of the oddest things was allowing the guide to enter the room of the two girls, twice, the day after they went missing. According to interviews he gave, wasn’t he the guide who was supposed to meet the girls for a tour on April 2nd 2014? I just wondered why neither Kris nor Lisanne mentioned this in their diaries. Granted the local police took a relaxed approach because even in the USA we have at least a 24 hour period, depending on the age of the person(s) missing and nature of it. The police here certainly don’t send tour guides to the missing person’s room. And in case one of you gets “lost” in Panama, don’t worry the Panamanian Police will send the tour guide to do some detective work.
A hypothetical situation: What if the girls decided to take a day trip on April 1st and stayed overnight because it is not uncommon to do day trips or overnight trips especially if you are not in a very happening location. I’ve done it in Europe, Americas, Asia and made last minute plans as well. So the girls then return home from this hypothetical trip and crash in their room on April 2nd evening because they had their own room key to enter. Then the faithful and very dedicated guide opens the door too because he somehow has a key and finds them. If this were to happen since he was allowed to come into their rooms, imagine what the girls would have been thinking of his presence? Btw did they ever find their room key? Out of interest do women like to place keys in their pants when hiking or in their backpack or bags? My main reasons for doubt arose when the mysterious backpack emerged out of nowhere after two months in the jungle, where rain, river water, etc would have caused some damage to the outside or inside too. How come it appeared all of a sudden? Who claimed the $30,000 reward after that? The human remains of the girls along with other individuals that were supposedly found because according to the “lost” theory put forward by the authorities, both girls decided to walk across a monkey bridge. Imagine you are already “lost” in the deep jungle, hours have gone by (something like 3 hours to the first monkey bridge from the Mirador or lookout point), walking, trekking without a machete, extra food, water, clothing, in the dark. The last two emergency calls you made were at around 4:30 – 4:51 PM with no answer, you have snakes, and other wildlife unknown to you, and it is now past sunset which was ~7 PM for the day of April 1st 2014. Then you decide to cross this bridge as the Panamanian authorities said the girls did, and fell, injured and their bodies were broken up and scattered over several miles. When exactly did they do this bridge walk? Here’s some great insight into the surrounding details regarding the human remains of one of the girls, Kris Kremers. For me the most puzzling thing is the number of calls logged and in the manner they were made. Why didn’t they take more photos of places they were in, in case they found themselves circling the same place twice, etc or were they fixed in one position? Were the GPS location logged for the times they connected to emergency calls? Why not? Why were some calls made exactly the same time on 2-3 separate days with equal time spaced in between? Did one of them focus on deleting an embarrassing photo #509 just before dying? Did she know she was going to die? If some claim that they were hopeful that they were going to be saved due to the “SOS” red/orange plastic bag contraption, then why delete the embarrassing photo? As for the photos. If any of you have the original photos I’d like to take a crack at figuring out if they were tampered with or not, otherwise it is just conjecture without proof whatever theory you go with. In thinking back to the photos, I’ve always found a couple quite intriguing as I thumbed through this Dutch internet sleuth’s album of the girls’ entire trip. The ones I thought were a bit weird and maybe a coincidence were these two. One Two. They don’t seem to be making that weird two thumb gesture anywhere in the other photos of the Panama trip, nor in any of the earlier photos of their lives. Maybe it’s a universal sign or popular thing to do in Panama, or maybe the girls are simply paying homage to the tour guide P. In the end it doesn’t matter what I or anyone of you think happened. It will not bring Kris or Lisanne back unless some of you think Aliens abducted them or maybe they are somewhere prostituting themselves to survive. I’d take any theory if it’d bring them back again to their parents. Cheers!
PurpleCabbageMonkey replied on October 16, 2020:
"Okay, I'll discuss the photos first. Recently I had an exercise in trying to recover photos that I somehow lost while on a photographic tasking. I spent a lot of time with a colleague at work who has been working with recovering data for a long time. During this time I also experimented with a few ideas, specifically to test some of my theories about the photos. What I learned was this, whether you delete/cut and paste/move a photo or format a card either within the camera or with a PC, you can always retrieve some information using recovery software. I tried everything I could think of to get rid of a photo, but we could always recover the photo. Now usually the original file name is changed, the software assigns an individual number to the recovered files, so you cannot delete a file and rename another file to that number and think you can hide the original file. You can also see some of the files with their original names in a separate directory, I am not sure why some original names can be seen and others not. You can retrieve any file, we could even recover auto-saves from Office. If the file/photo was on the memory stick/hard disk, and it was removed somehow, you can still recover it. While you cannot see the original file name, for example, 0509 perhaps did not appear with that name in the recovered folder, you can still see all the photo details and sort it accordingly, like the when it was taken, setting used when it was taken, etc. So just because you cannot see the name 0509, you can see the file where it should have been. So if 0509 was on the card, it should have been possible to see it. The only way to hide a file would be to do what they call a low-level format of the card, essentially replacing all the data with 0s, which will prevent you to be able to recover the files. But it was explained to me that you have to format the entire card and therefore would loose all the files/photos. So according to my colleague, you cannot simply do a low-level delete of only one specific file. The data of a file is scattered all over the storage device, making it almost impossible to remove only one file. I double checked this to a friend who is head of the IT department of a bank in my country, he also confirmed that it is not possible to only remove one file from a disk in such a way that you cannot recover it. With this in mind, my opinion is that the only way that nobody was ever able to recover 0509 is because it was never on the memory card that was handed over to the Dutch authorities. I think that the Dutch received a copy. Then I thought, surely the Dutch experts would notice this. Which caused me to think that they knew all along the memory card was not the original. The photos was never officially released. All the photos came from leaks. It did seem strange to me that the girl's dairies was put on the internet for all to read, yet the photos never was. My guess, at this time, is that someone in Panama made a mistake with the original memory card, lost it, deleted it or something, Panama apologized to the Dutch who accepted the reason and the people in the know, the authorities, the parents, are aware that the photos are compromised and as such never officially released any of the photos. This can be part of the "non-disclosure agreement" they had to sign in order to have the remains released.0509 is not the only photo missing, in fact only a few photos have their original filename, if that is even correct. There are a number of photos that doesn't have a filename, and there a quite a lot of photos that hasn't been revealed in one way or another. The only reason 0509 is so well known, is because it is between the last day time photos and the night time photos. From the beginning the photos looked suspect to me, not necessarily "Photoshopped" but it looked out of order. That was one of the things that originally drew my attention. Photos from the memory card appeared in the Panamanian media before the card was handed over to the Dutch, indicating that other people had access to it, so the card was never properly secured in anything could have happened to it. Whether it was deliberately compromised or it was a honest mistake, you decide. In short, you cannot remove a specific photo and not be able to recover it. My opinion is that the Dutch never had the original memory card, they knew it and that is why the photos was never officially released, the information was tainted. Someone heard about the missing photo 0509 and pushed it into the lime light, ignoring the fact that there are plenty of other photos also missing. Considering that their hike was a spur of the moment thing, I doubt they were targeted and followed until a perfect opportunity arise where they could be kidnapped. It seems a little far fetched. Just my opinion about that. Pitti was nothing but a political appointee who was replaced when the regime changed in the elections of 2014. She was not in that position because of her knowledge and skills, and it showed. Mr F's actions and involvement remains suspicious, but there is no proof of anything other than perhaps a busy body. Remember, he was not alone, he was accompanied by Ms E from the school next door. Ms E was the one who set the original timeline, along with the testimony from the taxi driver, Ms E and Mr F claimed the girls had an appointment with him the next day, only to later change their story. They only reported the disappearance late on the 2nd to the local authorities. The guides were used to scan the trails on the 3rd, while they waited for the S&R troops to arrive. A helicopter was already on scene by the 3rd. So it was not like they only relied on the guides, it just takes time to get all the players in place. The backpack is strange, but consider that the evidence was not properly handled, everything about it remains suspect. The reward was for finding the girls, not only a bag. The locals who found the bag did grumble about it on the one video, but the parents did donate some money to the village. Nobody has claimed the full reward."
Power-Pixie also wrote: "I don't think this person is deranged to execute a perfect plan. The plan wasn't perfect actually since it received worldwide attention and continues to do so since the time these girls disappeared. And there is no proof this killer worked alone. As for serial killers, from what I have read on the FBI profiling of such types of personalities, there are different classifications of these killers capable of far more sinister and methodological attempts that help them get away with things. Sometimes it is also a bit of luck they get to escape without much effort, like a mistake of the police in charge, etc. You should know about Ted Bundy or Jeffery Dahmer they operated very efficiently and earned people's trust but remained very normal people, one guy married with kids, and the other was like a quiet, unassuming guy who had a regular job, etc. For both of these guys the police made some very basic mistakes and they continued their killing spree. And killers like these have many reasons for what they do, not just few minutes of sexual pleasure. A lot of what you mention happened over the course of two months (planting evidence, etc). There was plenty of time for doing what they did with the photos, camera, backpack, etc, including trying to get rid of the evidence. If these were real professionals like Cartel I don't think they would be bothered for the amount of money they get in return ($30,000 reward). If you entertain human or organ trafficking for example, they may make more money off those girls bodies than $30,000 is my guess. I think whoever was responsible wanted to get the search ended as it might have been getting too close to where it might have taken place and maybe better to just make them stop."
I agree: All personal ideas aside about what is 'likely' or 'logical' or not; the reality is that during April, May and the first half of June, the families of the girls were not slowing down with organizing new searches in the area behind the Pianista Trail. These search operations only stopped after the backpack was found (planted in my opinion) together with the bone remnants. To make it clear to the parents that the girls were dead. If a 3rd party had destroyed everything, from the bodies to the personal belongings, those internationally funded searches in that jungle would most likely have gone on until Christmas, and beyond. The family had the funds to hire the Mossad, if they wanted to. I believe that nobody living in that area was interested in that, not least drug folks who use this area's well known drug trails. The fact there was a fresh ball of skin from Lianne found 5 months after she went missing says enough. Just like her foot, hardly decomposed, found 10 weeks later, while Kris' remains were so far decomposed that the bones looked bleached. Anyone who does not see this as suspicious needs their brains checked imo. These remains were found in the same rough area, not in water, lying in the same jungle with the same weather conditions, humidity and such. Humans interfered and planted those remains, it's as simple as that I believe. I don't find it strange at all to consider there is someone involved who has the intelligence to plant these remains. It doesn't take an Einstein to plant a backpack and a few bones which don't provide a cause of death to a coroner. It was no Einstein who did this anyway, because the bag and its content was covered in different fingerprints and DNA. They were lucky that Betzaida was put onto the case, as she just didn't put them through a database. She also helped them by not looking for hairs or DNA from the girls in the houses and finca's of these guides, or from other people of interest. No interrogations of people either, aside from a short interview with the kids from the local gang. But they were released again. So it was no perfect crime at all: whomever did this would have been caught early on by the FBI if they had been put on this case. In fact, the FBI did in fact write at some point that they found a connection between the killing of Catherine Johannet, a mere 35 kilometers up north, and the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne. But once they solved their case, they let go of our dead girls, unfortunately. Despite the fact that the the actual pathologist coroner in this case repeatedly had stated that he believes the girls were victims or organ trafficking, I do not believe that cartels were involved here. Cartels are usually ruthless and well oiled machines, who don't fuss about with cat and mouse games with the police. They can make bodies disappear with chemicals very easily and you will never find a trace of them. For such people a few murders more or less is no big deal and they have more pressing matters to deal with than hanging around a jungle at night, faking night photos or holding onto bodies and bags for 10 weeks.. I much more suspect a couple of local players, a local gang perhaps. They may have been helped by someone intelligent enough to throw investigators off track. Although I believe Betzaida Pitti had no intention whatsoever to put them to the test or to even properly investigate and do the research by the book. So it was a home game really, easy peasy. Not even the many different fingerprints found on the girls' bras and phones led to a suspect, go figure. And when Kinga Philips from Lost in the Wild mentioned to Frank that "this area has a bit of a reputation", he replied: "Yes, I know". Kinga:"There are other people who have gone missing here." Frank: "Yes, correct." And criminologist Octavio Calderón says about this: "There's hundreds of cases like that." - There are many local women and girls disappearing in those regions too, only their parents do not have the means which these Dutch parents had, to set up mass searches and a media circus. 
Alex wrote on July 10, 2020: "One thing that bother me about the sex trafficking scenario, is the role of the tour guide. If this were an instance of a organized criminal syndicate, then I doubt that they would use him... After all, look at how much suspicion he has cast on himself and on the investigation. No... these type of groups use professionals; the kind of men who you have known your whole life, living in that area; until you are abducted by them. If the girls were taken by a criminal syndicate, there would be no evidence, no night photos, no pictures of Kris' head, no backpack and no bones. The fact that all of these things were slowly trickled out, reeks of an amateur, and especially it reeks of a narcissist and a psychopath who wanted to further feed off of the pain of the girls parents, as well as gain $30,000. I do believe that we are dealing with a guide as our perpetrator, or as being the direct link to our perp... A human trafficking ring has absolutely no interest in a $30,000 reward for the safe return of the girls. They would have sold the girls for probably $100,000 each or more, if that's what happened to them; it just makes no sense. They would never bring that sort of attention potentially onto a human trafficking ring... They would have made the girls disappear for real, there would never have been a scrap of clothing, no backpack, no electronic, and without a doubt no human remains ever found. When you get taken by those kind of people you are never heard or seen from again, in any way. There is without a doubt a tie between Bocas Del' Toro, and the abductors, however I think we need to back it up a step further. The school was actively in on it all, they actively arranged for the girls to come to Boquete and they actively arranged for the change from Ingrid herself to the inexperienced one, Eileen, who would allow the guide to come sniffing around for other clients and of course the girls. A children's school offering volunteer work, that has two young women at the gate who even performed a fundraiser in advance, and they turn them away? [Despite many confirmations to Kris and Lisanne that they could start that Monday, all through Ingrid... and somehow the school staff knew nothing about it when the girls arrived there??]. This is not actually a school that cares about their students, or they would have arranged something for the girls to do anyway... No this is a large part of the set-up, this is the hook that causes the fish to bait from other European countries. I think we should closely examine everyone involved within the school. What better cover up than a children's school? People who are helping children, recruiting volunteers to help children... is there a more perfect cover? Of all of the people who you would suspect the least of being part of a human trafficking ring, teachers and police probably are in the top 2. Who would after all suspect someone who is entrusted with children every day of being capable of such evil?
This reeks of a perp who has his M.O. already set, he didn't need to think about how he was going to do it. I think that if we look for similarities between the girls' case and some of the other murders/disappearances in the area, we may find a connection. See, Serial Killers have a nasty little habit of getting into a rut, they take trophies, they go after women of the same type. Rarely does a man who murdered a young woman end up killing an old man next. And looking at the cases of murder/disappearances including an American [Catherine Johannet] in 2017, 9/10 of them were young women, from Europe or other countries. Only 1 or 2 Americans, and as we already know the guide favors Dutch girls and women from Europe. He does not like Americans. Furthermore, if you were going on any sort of a hike where you had a chance of an emergency happening, again you would at a minimum take food and water. One bottle of water between the girls makes no sense at all, especially given that Lisanne wasn't feeling well! Nothing adds up when you compare their actions to their own psychology and life experience, it's as if they suddenly dropped everything they knew and said "fuck it" let's go to the Pianista! One other thing bothers me.. are there no bugs in the Jungle there in Panama? As someone who has partaken in SERE training, the last thing in the world that you want in the jungle is shorts and a tank top, exposing all of that bare skin to the bugs. They would have been eaten alive, and yet we don't even see any bug spray in the photos! The more I study this case, the more I believe we may be dealing with a serial killer. The night photos have all the hallmarks of a serial killer viewing his killing as perhaps a work of art. He thinks of himself as something of an artist. The night photos have utterly misdirected the investigation;they are his masterpiece. The perpetrator has created a smoke screen of utter nonsense, he's sadistic and feeds off of the parents' pain. It's almost as good as the actual act itself. A form of emotional torture if you will, he's a sadistic man, as well as a narcissist... it smacks to me of a bait and switch, a trap designed to hook young college aged women from Europe and get them to come out to Boquete where they can be easily made to "disappear". When you read the diaries, it's clear that something about the energy of the people they were interacting with at the school not only made them mad, but there was also a clear sense of fear in the writing. They had a sense that something was wrong. - I've also wondered if perhaps the impetus for the hike was not feeling safe with their host/being in Boquete? They didn't plan it, so they needed to make sure they hadn't left behind any evidence, any clues, that 1 thing that could crack the case.... I believe this is why the guide went to the girls rooms, why he was present at every stage of the investigation, and why he insisted on making friends with the parents; all to alleviate suspicion. The pictures are a misdirection, a ploy by the perpetrator to create division between internet sleuths, and the investigators. They are a complete red herring in my opinion. The local boys are without a doubt part of it, however I'm not so sure that they are directly our perpetrators. Connected? Yes I believe so, perhaps it was the perpetrator seeing the girls with the boys that triggered his initial narcissistic wound. This case to me has all of the hallmarks of a serial killing, the night photos are a way for the perpetrator to gloat, his mentality is "I feel special, I want to gloat, and the parents pain and sadness is almost as good as the original act". The night photos are his masterpiece, a sadistic narcissists way to inflict more pain upon an already grieving family. He views himself as superior, unable to be caught! I think this killer thinks of himself as an artist.. someone special. And I think the local boys and the taxi driver ended up dead at the hands of the same group/perpetrator that dealt with the girls.... quite possible they were also victims of a killer perhaps; because they knew too much. Perhaps the perpetrator could tell that the local gang friends were about to crack, and about to go to the international media. Perhaps the taxi driver's mentality can not be known, another reason to drive the perpetrator to off him. With the taxi driver however, nobody could know what he would have said to anyone. This made him a security risk. The girls' abduction may have been planned, or it may have been a crime of opportunity. But the deaths of the taxi driver and the two boys were without a doubt pre-meditated. Maybe drugs played a role in that case as well.. who knows. I’m still believing that some compromising pictures existed, or maybe they still exist on the net, but of course with no direct connection to the case and without names. The parents saw them and so on.... 
The perpetrators' goal is to make it seem as though the girls' stupidly meandered them over the continental divide, made them get lost by themselves and caused them to disappear. It is a ruse, a misdirection designed to create contention between various internet researchers, as well as between the actual boots on the ground, the local law enforcement and those same internet sleuths. It's as though the perpetrator considers himself "Jigsaw" and we are 'all playing his game'. We must be brave and get off this awful Pianista, it is a psychological safe space, so it makes sense as to why the Losters [those people believing that Kris and Lisanne got lost without interference of a 3rd party] would still be pushing this narrative after all this time; however we must be willing to drop our preconceptions and examine the case in the light of them returned from the Pianista trail and the possibility that the girls were taken during or after their swim at the Caldera with the boys. I have also been thinking about the parents' psychology, and why they would treat the investigators as enemies and not as allies. Ponder this, the parents had the wherewithal and the means to buy both of the girls a satellite phone, knowing they were going to a 3rd world country with dense rain forest and potentially spotty coverage. And yet they did not; no doubt the 1200 dollars for a satellite phone was "too expensive". If the girls fell and were injured; then there's nothing a sat. phone could have done to save them. Assuming there was foul play however, the fact that they made so many emergency calls means they could have made over a hundred actual satellite phone calls to emergency services. Perhaps the parents simply cannot live with the fact that they contributed to both of the girls' deaths by refusing (or legitimately being stupid enough to think you don't need a satellite phone to go hiking in a third world rain forest) to purchase them a satellite phone, or actively deciding not to at some point during the trips preparation. It's something I keep coming back to; were I Hans Kremers, or Peter Froon, I'm not sure I'd be able to live with the guilt that just 1200 dollars or so could and would have easily saved both of the girls' lives. If they fell, then the parents feel no guilt... if it was foul play however.. Than not only did they not pay the proper attention to making sure that Boquete was a safe area and that their girls were properly prepared for such a venture, but then they also did not equip them with the means which are readily and easily accessible today, with which they could have survived an emergency situation. Even just having the satellite phone to be able to make welfare calls to the parents would have been worth it, I simply cannot imagine letting my daughter trail off to a 3rd world country, with a minimum of preparation. And let's not forget that the guide [said that he] never saw the girls, so why sudden such an interest in this case? As I understand it, when other people went missing in the past, he wasn't helping to find them and if he would then everyone would have been saying: that fantastic guide is always helping to find a missing people. But they didn't. I think his stepson is the one who is helping to find missing people, that's a rumour I heard, but nothing about his activities. About the parents, it's when people do not quite well understand where their kids are going, then European people are often very trustful, naive and believe that all world is a nice place, except for Russia and America of course. No one really talks much on TV about crime activities in 3rd world countries, as no one cares about them and we think that OK as no one talks about it, that it might be a safe place to go to. Check how much your life insurance would cost if you go to a place like Panama or Brussels though, it would be a huge difference."
Juan wrote Regarding the girls even going on that hike: it was a clash of characters! Like Kris concluded in her journal: she went with the flow, was pragmatic. But Lisanne was the one planning the whole thing months in advance.. Indeed, the Dutch are very different from Latin cultures, like Spain. I know all about it, with a Spanish family. We live by time in the Netherlands, everything is well organized, you would rather be early than late... so Lisanne's top priority in the Netherlands was, to communicate with the daycare center and have written confirmation, they could work there. For her, that was the sole purpose of the trip. To study a bit of Spanish, and then work with the small children. Anything else was unimportant. So while Kris might have thought: fuck it, Lisanne was hit very hard. It was all she obsessed about, for months, to arrange every detail of her trip, to find a place to work, to communicate well with these people, get confirmation. Everything worked out fine in Bocas del Toro, yet since it is more for richer tourists, it is safer.. Plus, excursions are fun and around the corner there. Just hop on a boat to a Bounty island, which are small, so you can walk through the forests for half an hour and then swim. That was all very fine. But they made a thinking error, about Boquete. It's totally different. It's at a high altitude, and it is provincial.. the people are rough. No more international young party people, but guys belonging to gangs. That is why it is CRUCIAL that everyone looks at the Caldera Hot Springs, and not the Pianista. Because that is where you can find the Bocas life in Boquete. Also, Bambuda Castle, and the Rio Encantado resort.. that is fun, safe tourism.. and relaxing. The choice for the Pianista trail would have been odd.. Back then, it wasn't popular. Why not walk the trail to the Secret Waterfalls? It is bordered by a wooden fence, you have a cloud forest and beautiful waterfalls there. I mean, the only nice thing about this Pianista seems to be the view at the top.. But 99% of the time it rains, there is a strong wind and the sky is grey [only not that day of April 1st...].
Hidden Life wrote on October 10th, 2020:
"Hi Scarlet, I read all of your 3 blog parts quite well. Thanks a lot for this huge amount of informations. It's unbelievable, how complex a reconstruction of a "simple" walk can be, if some important facts are unknown. I would like to find a conclusion for myself, but it's not possible without the real facts. Here some of my final thoughts. Please forgive mistakes in my English. German is my first language:A) Get lost: As the parents of Kris Kremers said in their selfmade video, it's not possible to get lost on this trail under "normal" conditions. And even the weather was fine that day. They checked the trail very well. Lisanne and Kris were intelligent women and I don't suppose that they dared to leave the normal path because they knew that they have no experience in the jungle. And they knew that they absolutely didn't have the equipment to go deeper into the jungle. But this is an assumption. It's of course possible, they left the "normal" track, hoping they can find back, but suddenly they lost orientation. Then they started calling 112 and 911. But why didn't the search teams find them? Haven't the search teams been already searching when the women were still dialing the emergency call?
B) Murder: If they were murdered, why didn't the murderer(s) make the backpack and all other things disappear completely? Sorry for this thought, but if I were a murderer, I would make disappear every proof that could identify myself as the murderer. In this case I would dig a very big hole and throw everything in this hole. If the murderer tried to get unsuccessfully into the phone of Kris or Lisanne, that would be one reason more to make it disappear, because he doesn't know, what's in the phone. Photos or videos of him? Spoken messages? But both phones and the camera have been found. But these thoughts are assumptions as well.
C) Dangerous animals: I read that dangerous animals are rarely seen in this area, like Puma and Jaguar. But nobody can exclude this option for sure. I dont't have the knowledge about wild animals and what they do, if they kill humans or animals. I know that wild animals, who have babies, can be very dangerous. The investigators obviously didn't finds marks on the few bones they got. If wild animals killed the both women, other animals perhaps took the bones and spread them out in the jungle. But this gives the question (and many more), why the backpack was found in good condition.
D) Accident: If the two women had an accident, then they had left the normal route, otherwise they would have been found on the way. If both had an accident at the same time and were so badly injured that they could not walk anymore, they had a big problem and were only able to call the emergency. If one of them was not injured, she might not be able to go back because the other one was too injured. If one of them died, the other one could have gone back if she found the way. Again, too many possibilities and assumptions.
At the moment I only see these four possibilities. Or three if accident belongs to A). For each of them there are clues, but without new facts it is probably impossible to gain new insights. I don't understand why the search teams didn't use modern technical cell phone equipment to get in contact with the two women. In the helicopter and on the ground. That would have been so easy, as long as the women had been able to use their cell phones. Scarlet, the owner of this channel, confirmed that no such equipment was used. The women could have been found within a few hours. We live in times where technically nearly everything is possible and they didn't use the most effective way to find them. What a tragedy! I hope I did not write disrespectfully when I mentioned the bones etc. It is a very sad story. I found this story randomly and it did not let me go, like many others. I think we all want to find clues that can clear up this terrible event. Parents, friends, classmates and everyone who knew them should be able to know what happened so that either the murderers can be brought to justice or they can finally find peace in their hearts. Since I am a Christian and believe in Jesus Christ, my prayer is that this case can be cleared up. If not, we will all see one day what happened. Please read in the Bible, Hebrews 4:13: "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do." (King James 2000). Why be lost? The devil wants you to be lost. The bible says he is a murderer of men from the very beginning, read John 8:44. Please do not miss your chance. Time is running out. As we see in this sad story of Lisanne and Kris, nobody knows when life ends. It can be today."
I replied: "Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this case. Yeh good analysis. A. indeed, the phone of Kris was used up until 11 days into their disappearance, and there were search troops out more or less from day 3. There were also sniffer dogs at some point and a large group of Sinaproc army personal, as well as volunteers. They were nowhere near that Pianista trail, people descended down the slopes also near the Pianista summit, but no signs of the girls. If they got lost, then it is a mystery how, as that trail down the summit is set in stone more or less. You really need to make a massive effort to get lost there, for instance by wading through that small stream, instead of just passing it and following the clear path, cut out in rock in many parts.B. yeh that is a valid point. It is far-fetched to think a murderer(s) would go so far as to plant the backpack, plant the shorts of Kris, make fake nightphotos. Quite a scheme. I may have seen too many series on serial killers and geniuses like Ted Bundy, so I find it completely plausible for anyone with a normal IQ to do such a thing, but a lot of people seem to think that killers of this caliber are always people who go for the easy way, destroying all evidence. I don't even exclude the possibility that Betzaida Pitti and her team have helped the purpetrator a bit, she ruined mostly all the forensic investigation single handedly. Also, a chap from England called Alex Humphrey has disappeared in the same area in 2009 and nothing was ever found of him. Perhaps it would seem too suspicious for the international media to have not 1 but 3 European tourist go up in smoke? Hence, they made it look like the girls just got lost and perished. If so, it was effective, the general consensus is still that the girls died out there due to their own incompetance.
C. No I disagree. The forensics excluded animals, suare and fair. No animal teeth were found under the microscope on any of the bones found. No signs of animals on the backpack, the shoes and the jeans shorts either. Animals are out of the question.
D. There are huge issues with an accident scenario too. For one, the girls' bones were found in each others vicinity, spread out in clumps together. It is not so that Kris' bones were found in one place and Lisanne's a bit further away. No, as far as we know now they were spread out in clusters together. So it is not so that Lisanne left her dead friend to look for help herself. Also, the bones were found very close to Alto Romero. There are people living in the area these bones were found. Same for the location of the backpack, people worked there every day, it was near houses. It makes no sense that these girls died in an inhabited area, yet nobody saw them or heard them and they asked not once for help, while they must have passed houses along the river, going by the locations of the bones. These bones were not found in a ravine, near a ravine or in terrain where one can have an accident, so it is also impossible that Kris fell down bad enough to break her whole pelvis in half, and somehow still ended up dead near Alto Romero. Yeh that is very unfortunate, but Betzaida Pitti has ruined a lot of forensic evidence, from DNA to fingerprints to not having a shoe examined by phorensics, neither the water bottle, no house searches with people of interest, nothing. And indeed, they also did not use equipment to enlarge the cell phone reception in this jungle area, so the girls could be called or call themselves. Also no (body) heat camera's were used on the helicoper. So a lot of missed opportunities. No problem, everyone can talk freely here about their ideas and suspicions as long as they stay respectfully about the girls. I don't care about criticism aimed at the investigators, they deserve it as they botched the whole investigation. Yeh it is a haunting case, it is something mostly anyone reading about it seems to feel, the want to find that one detail which can finally point us all in the right direction and solves this case. But there is just vital information missing, it is a difficult case that messes with your mind, I find. I think the only real chance of it ever being solved, lies in witnesses speaking out. There are people who know a lot more but who do not speak, perhaps because they are afraid. I have hope that with time, some people will speak up, perhaps even on their deathbed. Thanks for your thoughts."
Anonymous wrote 
on May 27th, 2020: "There have always been events like this in the years back, as gang-activity is increasing in all Centro Americas, so things are getting tougher. Panama, Costa Rica and even Nicaragua and Guatemala were great countries to travel to back in the time between 1995 and 2005. After that, first tourism grew massively (hipster-kids traveling all over the world on cheap airfares and hostels), and then gang-activities startet, initially by spreading out of the USA, when convicted youngsters went back home (El Salvador and Honduras were the first hot spots). In Costa Rica problems like this were not evident till around 2004 - it used to be quite a peaceful place then, with only petty theft and small crimes to be alerted to. Today they've got the "Los Morecos" and other gangs. Panama had always been neighbour of Colombia, with the Darien Gap as a drug-smuggling route (land and sea). Today they also send refugees through this dangerous wilderness. So yes, these countries used to be good travelling destinations back then. The gap was open as long as a new middle class was emerging – with overall wealth and infrastructure growing - and severe crime not on the rise. The global economic crisis of 2007 hit those countries as well by stopping the growth of the middle class and cutting opportunities/chances, letting especially young males down and disenchanted from their dreams. So now they live in shanty quarters and see some posing rapper's and other first world shit on TV or on their smart phones - and they want to be “on the party” as well. And as we know from all the classic mob-movies, the money lies “on the streets”. As a result I go conform with other comments here, that those countries are no playgrounds for naive first world kids- especially those, who were raised by "curling- or helicopter-parents" , smoothing the their kids way in all aspects of life. Especially female travellers without male company are an easy target (who would have thought that). Those counties are still good places for “real” travellers, who have already a certain life- and social experience/skills, can speak at least some basic Spanish and have common sense and sharp senses, when it comes to assessing and avoiding potentially dangerous actions/situations. As for the case of Kris and Lisanne, the guys who pulled all this are lucky, that the parents did not send in a bunch of steel-balled ex Delta-Force or ex Légion étrangère guys. On the other hand - if you "chop one head off", three news will regrow...., that's the problem with gangs and organised crime. The next kid from a shanty town is already standing in line for receiving a gun… So spoilt kids and “snowflakes”of the genY and Z – better stay home and travel your own places or visit Greta Thunbergs home town in Sweden! And by the way - airfares might rise anyway after a short hype after rebooting the airline industry. So I think, the hipsters and older genY-dudes and dudettes were the last generation for a longer time, who were able to travel the whole world affordably and with nearly no restrictions. We gotta swallow that pill… And as already mentioned - for those, who are realistic, fit, who can adapt and have common sense, Central America will still offer great experiences in the future. But…eerh…well….if you go there to make selfies with giant butterflies in front of a waterfall, in hot pants and a tank top, you better stay in your hip urban hood a buy a super-deluxe frappochino with ice and cinnamon… That might sound cynical, but we can learn from this case: the world is a tough place an it’s likely, that it’s becoming even tougher…
so long"
I replied: "Anonymous, I agree. And thank you for pointing out that the situation in those countries was a lot safer before, let's say, roughly 2004. I just did a blog post about a German teenager who died under suspicious circumstances in Malta, but reading up on the matter, Malta did not seem or feel even a fraction as dangerous as a country like Panama. And as such, mostly all Latin American countries, from Nicaragua to Colombia. There is this tendency indeed, of young western hikers disease and the large amount of backpackers and Millennials basically, happily streaming into the Central American countries, expecting to find perfect paradise instagram photo opportunities... Indeed, the vast middle classes we now have in the western world, with the means to travel and the incentive. There is also a big travel industry, which sponsors these wanderlust influencer types, it is a business model. But it makes many normal youngsters want to go to such destinations themselves, many of them unaware of the history of such countries, the political landscape and the crime numbers. Even Kris and Lisanne, who were well educated, levelheaded girls, may have underestimated the potential risks. I believe the swimming photo to be legit and if they truly decided to go (skinny?) dipping with mere strangers in Boquete, they took a risk in my opinion. That's easy said in retrospect, but really, that was something they should have felt squeezy about themselves too. It is very well possible still that these girls wanted to have a good time with the locals, but then the atmosphere changed as soon as they declined sexual approaches. Then the local kids, macho's perhaps, maybe looking down on gringo's with money coming to their quarters for meaningless good times, wanted to show them a lesson... That's one possible scenario, I think. And like you said, there is indeed also the MTV effect; youngsters from poor backgrounds see the 'gangsta' lifestyle played out in video clips and reality tv shows, and they want a piece of the pie; a part in the fun. This increases crime I read, because when there are no jobs available for them or they don't have the means to get a good education, crime is what looms for some. Which is what some modern day tourists are confronted with, there are new stories every year of missing backpackers, murdered tourists and that doesn't even include the plethora of robbings and rapes. And you are right on the money with your comments, it is true, some of these Millennials are raised by their 'best friends' (parents), often in a PC bubble of 'love all cultures'. They get mostly everything they want and participation prizes too for joining a competition. 'No' is not a word they like to hear. And when your mother is a (semi-)feminist, instilling the confidence in the daughters that girls can do anything a boy can. Or better. Including solo traveling.... Then that could in some cases lead to disaster. Anyway, I would just take very good precautions when travelling to other parts of the world. If you go off grid or into the jungle, don't save money on a satellite phone. Don't save money on reputable tour guides either, I'd say... Just, be prepared for the worst, as well as the best.. In the Kris and Lisanne case, Lisanne's parents were very worried about their daughter's travel plans. They did not like the sound of Costa Rica or Panama one bit. But they didn't say no to their (by now adult) daughter. There is this now famous horrible case of a Danish and Norwegian girl who went climbing a mountain in Morocco in December of 2018. They were vocal online about immigrant support and the intrinsic goodness of all different cultures. Only one parent has stated later in the media that she was a little bit worried about the Muslim country her daughter went to. Two very young, blonde, Scandinavian girls, alone in a tent. They were stalked, raped and decapitated on camera and the monsters then sent the footage to all the girls' online friends and family. Just because the world should be everyone's oyster, does not mean that it actually IS, in reality. And indeed, those who are well prepared, fit, aware of the risks and willing to stick to the 'rules' will probably be fine, and anyone can be hit by a truck, anywhere. But younger women traveling alone in some parts of the world, I think they run an extra risk.
Madeline wrote in July of 2020: "My theory:-April 1st, around 16.00 PM to 17.00 PM. It was getting dark. They hadn't had their chance to go back yet. They didn't bring camping goods, , they tried calling 112 but not answers were sent back. They were two energetic happy girls, so they were positive in mind and decided to keep on walking and hoping maybe there was a house they could spend a night in. Seemingly they did find a place to stay, a local's place. The hosts let them in. They couldn't communicate in language so they just did in body language. They spent the night.
-April 2nd They woke up, feeling frightened, maybe they were locked in and nobody as out there to open it or what. Lisanne called 112. It was 06.58 am. They thought it was just a misunderstanding between them and the host so they decided to stay in. 10.53 am, they were started to get hungry, nobody was there still. Realizing something unwanted was happening in progress, Lisanne still on duty for calling the emergency. Still no return. They tried again past noon at 13.56, still empty stomach from not yet having lunch. They couldn't find a way out, so they decided to go out their own way, break the lock or something, ran away further, feeling both freed and scared, to the wild where they couldn't even guess where it was anymore. Once again the dawn came, Lisanne had turned off her phone, so Kris came to duty for calling emergency because it was getting dark once again and they couldn't possibly be finding a house to stay anymore. Nothing returned her. Out of scared and fear, they both fell asleep in the darkness of the jungle, in the middle of nowhere, alone and just the two of them.
-April 3rd They were conscious when noon almost approached. The heat from the sun woke then up, and Kris once again called emergency because they knew no locals could gain their trust anymore. They kept on walking here and there trying to get away, not in a vacation mode anymore that's why no photos were taken during these times. All they could think about is getting away from that jungle. Nothing came positive, so they switched turns about who called the emergencies. Both of them did, all before dark.
-April 4th The same scenario happened to them at 3rd. But this time Lisanne was focused on trying to find a path or rail out, and seemingly they were somehow in the right rail. Lisanne thought they were fine so she told Kris to check signal to tell their parents they were fine, so they immediately knew no emergency calls needed further. Kris tried the signal while Lisanne kept on the rail and walking, hearing news from Kris that no signal was present. They thought they were fine, so Lisanne said "we can call them when we are back at the house down below. It's okay Kris, we are getting there". Kris turned off her phone. Lisanne's phone had no activity as she knew there was no need anyway. They kept on walking and apparently they took a wrong trail once again and trapped still.
-April 5th Early morning, Lisanne felt she needed the responsibility to take care of them, so at 4 am she called emergency, no returns, she fell a sleep, and she tried again at 6 am but her battery was fully out. Kris and Lisanne woke up and they continued their path, rewinding their ways to start fresh and take the other side of the split road. They were getting in the right direction. So Kris did a signal check, twice at early noon and eager about telling their parents that they were fine, since it had been days since their last communication. Their road was both easy and not, and here somehow
-April 6th The same wrong trail retaken by these girls, but soon they found their way back and again doing a signal check to call the outside world, out of their hunger and scare they walked still. Lisanne had no more access so Kris had to do it.
-April 7th to april 8th Something unwanted happened. They felt like someone was following them and kept on directing them to the wrong trails by changing the signs. Roads were taken but none of them seeks home. It was dark and they were lonely, again. Kris remembered bringing a camera with a flash. She took some pictures of their surroundings so that when they wake up the next morning, they would follow that pictures instead of the real signs, that they presumed was changed by someone trying to toy them. They packed their phones, their camera and maybe even took off their bras and neatly lay then inside their bags and went to sleep to prepare for the next morning. Little did they know that the person(s) following them took their bag. Leaving them alone for more with no chance of communicating to the outside world. They woke up and freaked out, knowing they were left with nothing. They kept on walking, empty stomach and empty hope, they somehow had a freak accident and fell down. Somebody in the jungle found their dead or unconscious body, maybe even legless leg due the fall, badly injured and took them home. They were scared and partly dead. Here I guess their bag were taken by the same group of people and they weren't taken by good guys but insisted with the type of guys from the description of the Panamanian Forensic lab scientist at the end of this video. By the end, these guys planted everything by the riverbank and there the story came to what we hear today.the pic number 509 was deleted by these guys as it probably showed them a little about their sighting the nights before but the girls just didn't notice it."
I replied: "Hi Madeline, thanks so much for your detailed scenario as to what may have happened to Kris and Lisanne.. That is a very creative new theory you propose, of them finding a place to stay the night on April 1st to 2nd. The only potential problem I see is that the Lost in the Wild team walked the same route and they state that it was impossible for K+L to reach the first river passing that day, even if they walked until late in the evening, and in between they never passed any houses. They only would if they kept walking for a very long time (not in time for the 1st night), or if they returned on the Pianista trail and went over the summit, back to the Boquete side of the mountain, and there on that stretch, there are some houses. But then you are fairly close to Boquete already. - I also like the idea of some local bad guys stalking them in the jungle and changing road signs. The only thing I have real doubts about it, how nobody found them all those days and how they found nobody. This is a relatively small area where people live, especially along the river. They must have passed locals, farmers, meadows, houses, the river at some time. The jeans from Kris was found along the riverbed, the bag was and the bones were too in the vicinity of the water. If all those things were planted then I guess theoretically it is possible that Kris and Lisanne were lost deep into the bush and away from the river. Hence, why nobody found them and they didn't run into other people.But why would people who had nothing to do with their death (accident, not 1 healthy girl but 2 both fell? hmmm..) plant these bones? Why not just alarm the police and get your hands on the reward money (30.000 dollars for whomever could point the parents to these girls)? If they died by accident, nobody would let go of such a reward by dragging the bones away and plant them elsewhere. That makes not as much sense as assuming that whomever planted these bones did it because they were responsible for their deaths.
Also, the bones from Kris were much further decomposed than those of Lisanne. In August they even found rolled up skin from Lisanne's leg, in a very early stage of decomposition. How does a similar timed death correspond to that? If anything, I'd say it points towards Kris being dead longer, or Kris' body having been terated with a chemical and Lisanne's didn't, plus Lisanne either having been alive for a lot longer, or her remains having been stored first, before being planted out in the wild again.... Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Best wishes
-April 3rd They were conscious when noon almost approached. The heat from the sun woke then up, and Kris once again called emergency because they knew no locals could gain their trust anymore. They kept on walking here and there trying to get away, not in a vacation mode anymore that's why no photos were taken during these times. All they could think about is getting away from that jungle. Nothing came positive, so they switched turns about who called the emergencies. Both of them did, all before dark.
-April 4th The same scenario happened to them at 3rd. But this time Lisanne was focused on trying to find a path or rail out, and seemingly they were somehow in the right rail. Lisanne thought they were fine so she told Kris to check signal to tell their parents they were fine, so they immediately knew no emergency calls needed further. Kris tried the signal while Lisanne kept on the rail and walking, hearing news from Kris that no signal was present. They thought they were fine, so Lisanne said "we can call them when we are back at the house down below. It's okay Kris, we are getting there". Kris turned off her phone. Lisanne's phone had no activity as she knew there was no need anyway. They kept on walking and apparently they took a wrong trail once again and trapped still.
-April 5th Early morning, Lisanne felt she needed the responsibility to take care of them, so at 4 am she called emergency, no returns, she fell a sleep, and she tried again at 6 am but her battery was fully out. Kris and Lisanne woke up and they continued their path, rewinding their ways to start fresh and take the other side of the split road. They were getting in the right direction. So Kris did a signal check, twice at early noon and eager about telling their parents that they were fine, since it had been days since their last communication. Their road was both easy and not, and here somehow
-April 6th The same wrong trail retaken by these girls, but soon they found their way back and again doing a signal check to call the outside world, out of their hunger and scare they walked still. Lisanne had no more access so Kris had to do it.
-April 7th to april 8th Something unwanted happened. They felt like someone was following them and kept on directing them to the wrong trails by changing the signs. Roads were taken but none of them seeks home. It was dark and they were lonely, again. Kris remembered bringing a camera with a flash. She took some pictures of their surroundings so that when they wake up the next morning, they would follow that pictures instead of the real signs, that they presumed was changed by someone trying to toy them. They packed their phones, their camera and maybe even took off their bras and neatly lay then inside their bags and went to sleep to prepare for the next morning. Little did they know that the person(s) following them took their bag. Leaving them alone for more with no chance of communicating to the outside world. They woke up and freaked out, knowing they were left with nothing. They kept on walking, empty stomach and empty hope, they somehow had a freak accident and fell down. Somebody in the jungle found their dead or unconscious body, maybe even legless leg due the fall, badly injured and took them home. They were scared and partly dead. Here I guess their bag were taken by the same group of people and they weren't taken by good guys but insisted with the type of guys from the description of the Panamanian Forensic lab scientist at the end of this video. By the end, these guys planted everything by the riverbank and there the story came to what we hear today.the pic number 509 was deleted by these guys as it probably showed them a little about their sighting the nights before but the girls just didn't notice it."
I replied: "Hi Madeline, thanks so much for your detailed scenario as to what may have happened to Kris and Lisanne.. That is a very creative new theory you propose, of them finding a place to stay the night on April 1st to 2nd. The only potential problem I see is that the Lost in the Wild team walked the same route and they state that it was impossible for K+L to reach the first river passing that day, even if they walked until late in the evening, and in between they never passed any houses. They only would if they kept walking for a very long time (not in time for the 1st night), or if they returned on the Pianista trail and went over the summit, back to the Boquete side of the mountain, and there on that stretch, there are some houses. But then you are fairly close to Boquete already. - I also like the idea of some local bad guys stalking them in the jungle and changing road signs. The only thing I have real doubts about it, how nobody found them all those days and how they found nobody. This is a relatively small area where people live, especially along the river. They must have passed locals, farmers, meadows, houses, the river at some time. The jeans from Kris was found along the riverbed, the bag was and the bones were too in the vicinity of the water. If all those things were planted then I guess theoretically it is possible that Kris and Lisanne were lost deep into the bush and away from the river. Hence, why nobody found them and they didn't run into other people.But why would people who had nothing to do with their death (accident, not 1 healthy girl but 2 both fell? hmmm..) plant these bones? Why not just alarm the police and get your hands on the reward money (30.000 dollars for whomever could point the parents to these girls)? If they died by accident, nobody would let go of such a reward by dragging the bones away and plant them elsewhere. That makes not as much sense as assuming that whomever planted these bones did it because they were responsible for their deaths.Also, the bones from Kris were much further decomposed than those of Lisanne. In August they even found rolled up skin from Lisanne's leg, in a very early stage of decomposition. How does a similar timed death correspond to that? If anything, I'd say it points towards Kris being dead longer, or Kris' body having been terated with a chemical and Lisanne's didn't, plus Lisanne either having been alive for a lot longer, or her remains having been stored first, before being planted out in the wild again.... Thanks for your detailed thoughts. Best wishes
"I've seen a lot of speculation from viewers about the search efforts, however they extensively searched these areas... Common thread I've seen is that they only searched up towards the Mirador and that they couldn't use cadaver dogs due to the cable bridges. I have even seen people claim the cadaver dogs did not pick up any scent. Not true. I'll explain the facts exactly.... 12 trails in the area were searched and they made passes not just on these trails, but the El Pianista was thoroughly searched. The entirety of this area; not just on the trail or just slightly off trail. Stating that cadaver dogs were not used is also false, as well as that these dogs did not pick up any scent. I can tell you without a doubt they used them here. These dogs were in fact leashed and were used during the search operations. I'll explain how these dogs are trained after working myself for years with these dogs. They can scent track in dense jungle. These dogs do not go on any trail without catching the scent of the people they were looking for. They will glare at you over their shoulder and mutter and refuse to follow any paths until they indeed picked up scent... The most puzzling part here: these dog followed a scent to the Rio Culabre. How far did they go? They went across a rope bridge in the water flow, which is no challenge for these dogs. They walked right through it with ease... These dogs can follow a scent of a victim up to 3 weeks; yes these dogs can track anything they alert if there is 1 dead skin cell in the area. Now I'm going to explain my accusation that these girls have been removed off this trail. The search troops and dogs supposedly followed and stopped on April 6th, and came within 100 feet of the girls. But if the girls or there backpack was there, they would have been found... Cadaver dogs are renowned life savers. I was working on a case in dense forest years ago. We looked for a hiker who went missing under mysterious circumstances. We deployed a search dog; this dog tracked a 2 week old scent. One of the dogs not only picked up the scent, this dog also picked up on a person who was murdered. Yes this is how it turned out (sad) and this dog covered 30 miles and found a makeshift grave. The victim was buried a whopping 14 feet under ground but that didn't stop the sniffer dog... No doubt about it, Kris and Lisanne were taken off this trail by a 3rd party. Near the 1st cable bridge across the river is a driving path; you can literally pull up within 15 ft of this part of the trail. This would have been an easy way to abduct anyone ...this would also explain why these dogs lost the scent at that point. They even jumped in the water, right next to the trail. That in itself gave a quick indication... Their handler did not pick up on it and the dog refused to track any further. That's because they the girls not on this trail."I replied: "Thanks DaTruth. Yes exactly. The entire area was thoroughly searched. Even when the parents walked the Pianista Trail in August of 2014, even then they passed a military group searching the place. That area behind the Pianista Trail has been turned upside down. Even though the Dutch sniffer dogs didn't make it too far beyond the trail, apparently. But there were other dogs used also I think. Yes cadaver dogs. Who have excellent smell, like you so detailed explain. Thanks! And amazing how well these dogs can smell and for how long!! Regarding the location where the backpack was found; there are houses there and people living there, I also find it impossible that Kris and Lisanne passed there, dropped their bag with all their belongings, and moved on (!) without alerting anyone. makes 0% sense... I agree. They were taken out of that area very early on, alive. And kept somewhere else. I also believe this to be the truth."
Georgie wrote on June 29th 2020: If the spot wasn't found until today, who was to see the little little SOS sign? The paper pieces would have been blown away by the first morning wind anyway. Why not use a long twig, ram it in the earth and put the pringles box on top vertically? it has a mirror on the outside too, right? That little little SOS sign made of paper pieces is just utterly laughable. The twig is weird btw. it is so little and there are so many useless branches left on it, anyone with half a brain would have broken them off for better handling immediately. Also why not use the full red bag, but instead two little weirdly knotted pieces. I don't know how to say it, but this is so half-assed, this was done by a lazy Latino (sorry, I've been in South America and they have bad days too). Nobody in Europe has ever knotted these plastic bags in this way. I read about this case 5 years ago, and I still remember how patsy weird I found the twig. The whole crafting is from somewhere else. Not from my dutch neighbors. The night pictures are a ruse. And the red hair is from a dead body, or at least an unconscious one. You can just see that from how unsorted the hair is. Someone really wanted to hammer home that Kris (and Lisanne?) were at that place. But this was the only angle that would NOT reveal any injuries. They just needed to make the connection. This might be just in the first night, maybe the second, considering how clean and not even oily the hair is.
They really got them at the only spot where they were sure they had no cell reception, didn't they. They wanted to get them. Now what do you want with two girls in the middle of the jungle? It's damn impractical either way you look at it. I suspect they were brought to some hut or home or wherever (bag, sole), might be far but not too much. Also these guys didn't want to be seen, since in sparsely populated areas everybody knows each other. walking trough the jungle, to come out at someone place just sounds about right. Also this whole cover up (pictures, cell calls, shorts) was done one or two days after the initial crime. I've read a lot about predators and there always is a recurrent (quite naturally logical) latter of events. the cover up started not before everyone was getting a somewhat clear mind again and now was getting frightened. Then someone came up with "lost" scheme, they must have heard of it before. In that region of all. And if you would have read Tolstoy, you would know that some people get plagued by the crime they did and their greatest wish becomes to get rid of all unlawfully obtained pieces. That might be the one of the reasons the (backpack) reappeared. The (bones) clearly were put there to end the investigation, but not before they were bleached enough. The gang tried to not get caught, in a simpleton-rookie manner. Independently Betzaida Pitti worked on getting evidence destroyed, in a third-worldish manner. Thank you for keeping this case alive. I hope someone will talk eventually."
I replied: "I agree. That little plastic on twig thingy is so tiny. People tell me that it was used to flag helicopters (laughable when they had large coloured shirts they were wearing to use those instead) or to catch water in. But there would be so little water caught in those thingies. Why not use the whole plastic bag instead? I think it was all placed there by a 3rd party and photographed to make it look like Kris and Lisanne were out there alone, desperate to be found. I don't think it is made by them or photographed by them. It makes little sense. I have never seen such a plastic wrapped on twig anywhere either, not in the Netherlands and not anywhere else. If you want to collect the maximum of water with the help of a red plastic bag, which they had been photographed with, you make something like this, or like this. I also agree on the photo from kris. It's a crazy photo to have been made by Lisanne of her friend, on purpose, during 3+ hours worth of clicking away that night of April 8th. I agree that it is an unconscious Kris at the very least and the hair is draped in such a way as to not show with full clarity what is shining through underneath it. They just had to have a photo which places the girls there, to make it look like they were still out there alone by the 8th. I think those photos were made in the depth of night for that very reason; everybody knows each other there, so they couldn't be seen. With search troops out there basically from day 3 and 4, they either took these photos before that date, or at the right date (8th) but in a completely different location, away from the search region. Do you mean Dostoevsky? I recently reread Crime and Punishment, which deals exactly about this topic, with Raskolnikov the murderer of the old pawn woman getting regrets and becoming very paranoid. I don't recall a Tolstoy book on this matter but maybe he did write stories about the same topic. Great thought though. I think the backpack most of all needed to be planted (same for the bones) to stop the parents from coming again and again, back to that jungle. They would still be searching today if they hadn't found any bones. They needed the closure, to know whether their daughters were dead or alive and they had the means to keep searching, unlike local poor parents who's daughters went missing in the same region (happened quite a few times actually). The thing is, many people think it is all too elaborated a scheme; too complex, too many chain events. I think you are right and once their minds became clear again, they used the photos of day 1 and the Pianista hike to create the plot of them never having returned from the hike. Even though several witnesses said they had spoken to them when they came back down. It's such a shame that by now to not more new facts have surfaced, hard facts. Nobody has identified the location of the night photos yet, for instance. We also do not know what photos were made between 508 and 550. Those are a lot of potential pieces of evidence, but you won't hear investigators or the families about them."
July 2020. Someone wrote me privately and asked questions about: This case/investigation being handled poorly intentionally. Asking what reasons would Panama have for handling things so poorly? Stating that despite the many little facts we know, once you dig a bit deeper, you realize that these things lead to a dead end and viscous circles, and that this was done by design. Perhaps the only two valid pieces of evidence are the fact that they went missing and that there bones showed up in the river. The most frustrating two parts of this case are 1. the girls went missing without answers and 2. why the investigation was screwed up so badly."
I replied: "True. There is a lot of evidence known, but critical vital evidence is missing. No fingerprints were properly checked with a national database; no fingerprints from the search troops were recorded, so the dozens of strange finger prints and DNA traces on the belongings of the girls, were never further checked. No checks for traces of hairs, blood or anything in local buildings and finca's. Some of the shoes found were never investigated by pathologists even though they were waiting for the material. The water bottle was never tested for anything. Officially the royal screw up of the Panamanian prosecution has not been addressed as such. But a journalist like Adelita Coriat has written a lot about this disappearance (she is Panamanian, now stopped as a journalist for La Estrella de Panama). She wrote very honest and critical. Please read about the ball of skin from Lisanne which was found at the end of August of 2014, in a very early stage of decomposition. It is vital evidence and the pathologist told Adelita that it could only have surfaced in the state it was in, if someone had stored it somewhere cool. I added all the articles about this find on my blog, some are still online but others have been removed from the net. It happens a lot. In Malta a German young man, a teen still, died under very suspicious circumstances and the parents received his corpse with most of the major organs missing. It's been covered up by malta and Germany to some degree too. There is a case in Poland/Egypt where both authorities are doing the exact same thing; covering up crime. Feel free to check the story out here if it interest you. Then there is the swimming photo. We identified the two young men in the photo. It is a very shoddy story, the links they have and how everyone in that photo was dead within the year. Feel free to read about it here. If that photo is real, there is a whole new angle to this disappearance and deducting their full agenda's those days, it kind of reduces the time when it could have taken place to the day of their disappearance, Tuesday April 1st. Could have major implications. Note that there are many rumours in the town and area. These kids were part of a youth gang, who are said to have dabbled in crime, animal cruelty and who have well to do parents with some power there locally. So well, there you go. The least mysterious of this whole case, to me, is the way officials handled it. That was to be expected. There are countless precedents for it, especially in Latin American countries (but also in Southern European countries!). Covering things up happens all the time. The Dutch were frustrated but Panama was 'leading' in the investigation. By law. So all they could do was hang around and try to help and wait until they were thrown a bone or two. In our case, they were allowed to investigate the mobile phones of the girls and the memory card of the camera. That was about it. I don't even think there was a second opinion done by the Dutch of the positive DNA match of the bones. If so, nothing was ever published about it as far as I know. We do not know who took the night photos, we do not know what can be seen under Kris' hair and if she was dead or alive. The location of the night photos has never been officially discovered and confirmed, despite pretty much having panorama photos of the area (but... all lying in the dark). But the state of the bones, they tell a story. Idem for the state of the backpack. And their locations. They completely contradict the girls being lost and having an accident. Anything found contradicts that they fell in a ravine, or were attacked by wild animals (something which a staggering amount of people still hold onto). But like I said, the fact that that ball of skin from Lisanne showed up in the early stage of decomposition it was in, 5 months after they went missing, should tell anyone a story of its own. And yet, everyone ignores this piece of evidence. Unbelievable. Best wishes Scarlet"
David wrote: "It's an interesting point made here as by coincidence I found myself watching a safety training video just yesterday, while on a first aid & safety course, and one of the segments shown was quite an old video of what to do if and when you find yourself in a very remote spot, miles from anywhere, and with very weak cellphone coverage. The advice given on how the phone can function, and how you can make it work for you in this situation, was very interesting. And of course made me think of Lisanne and Kris' situation as it is virtually describing the same scenario. So yes, the 112 international emergency number was discussed, the fact that you can call it from almost anywhere, even if you have no sim card in your phone, or no credit. On top of that was the confirmation that you can tap out a quick text for help and due to the mere fraction of a second that the phone will transmit a text you have left pending in 'send' the signal tower needs only that fractional bit of a seconds worth of a connection to receive that text. It was valuable information, and a fascinating video in the context of Lisanne and Kris's disappearance. It did bring home the powerful fact that if one of the friends had written a text, and left it pending.... then the odds are good that the searchers would have been able to narrow down the area to look in and cut down the wasted manpower and time that instead occurred. They could have concentrated the search, with confidence, into one specific area. It did bring back the question - in those first five day and nights Why didn't they try sending a text? Just one text? They had nothing at all to lose in just trying."I replied: "Thank you for sharing that info Dave, that was a very interesting read. Unfortunately, there was no draft message found. Which does not necessarily mean that the girls didn't leave something in writing behind. Considering there were many strange fingerprints on those phones, it is still technically possible that a 3rd part (may even be the investigators in Panama) went through the phones and removed any evidence of something they may not have wanted to become public. But that option aside, yes, why not leave a draft message pending... All I can think of, is that Kris and Lisanne were no tech wonders (like myself I must add) and perhaps they worried that a pending draft message would drain the phones battery? It's for ever tragic however that the phone of Lisanne DID make a 1 to 2 second connection with a cell tower. It would have been enough then, to let someone know what had happened :( "
I replied: "Great suggestions. I kind of never realized that all those photos were likely taken while the camera was on the ground. I also find your b scenario most likely, although it could be a combination of a and b; Lisanne and Kris escaped their kidnappers temporarily, in a wild panic they started taking photos in the hope of signalling anything or anyone. Of course, the flash would also alert the kidnappers then, so for the flash to be used for 3 whole hours is a bit strange, when you are trying to hide from someone. But maybe they were incapacitated and couldn't run (none of the photos show a change of location, they were all taken of the same trees and rocks, with exception of the couple of non-trees photos). Indeed, if one of the perps used their camera to show the others where he was and where they had to come back to, then that makes good sense. The rest were out searching for the escaped girls. They got Kris by 02:00 am and took a photo of the back of her head (she may have been dead by then). This also explains why there were no photos taken after say roughly 04:00 am. Because the sun would come up two hours later, so Kris and Lisanne should and would have taken another photo of the place they were at during daylight I think, if they were alone out there. Instead, they probably were recaptured before sunrise. :("
Inge P. replied: "Makes a lot of sense...but in order to preserve very fragile organs, they need to be removed in a sterile setting, placed in a chemical base fluid, and rushed to the receiving hospital. Organs are only viable for 2-4 hrs, but I might be wrong with that. That's were the red truck comes in....I think the girls either voluntarily got in, or were forced into it. They were then driven to Panama city, close to an airport or somewhere were a helicopter would pick up the organs. What a nightmarish scenario....or they were hunted, raped and killed in the jungle for the killers own sadistic reason.How did the the pelvis broke apart?? Well, guys carry machetes in there, and it may be that how they died...hacked apart. I'm getting terrible visions here....I hope they at least died quick. Horrible way to go, and so young."
Magnus wrote about the survival part on youtube: "I can relate to getting lost in the wilderness as I hike a lot & have got lost quite a few times. As beginner hikers: we left an easy mountain trail to explore a new beautiful side of the mountain. We had packed light, it was freezing cold so we couldn't stay past sunset, which was at 5 p.m. Within 2 hours I almost fell off a ravine & she into an ice cold river. So I can relate. It was a serious problem getting off the mountain by sunset (it was freezing cold and we were packing light so staying overnight was certain death). We even moved forward to find the way off the mountain rather than go back, exactly like here. However, our path back was erratic, we were wandering around lost, NEVER a straight line like in this case. Also we knew the trail had a start and an end - no way one moves forward "hoping to find a way out" without knowing it beforehand. The shift in behaviour equally makes no sense. When I go off exploring a new exciting part I take a lot more pictures, not a lot less. We also immediately used reference points to find our way - like the huge mountain behind us, again it's impossible to just ignore references and head forward into the unknown. You do consider your loved ones immediately, it makes no sense not leaving a message. I also absolutely do not cut off communication like they did or not leave messages to loved ones. It's the exact opposite. Also the basic way to escape is navigate on sight, you see a big mountain you came from & you head in that direction but in this case they literally turned their back on their reference point, for a whole week. Once me & my gf regrouped after getting lost we immediately formulated a plan, were rational: there is NO way these girls or whoever was with them stayed irrational for a whole week. Impossible. The search area in this case is also really small & populated, not a remote deep jungle off civilization, nothing can get lost here, it would be like getting lost in Hawai. So the only explanation is - like almost happened to me & my gf - both girls dying immediately on April 1st within hours of taking their last photos, in accidents, and then an Indigenous person or someone finding them and using the phones to try and report them to the police. Now this doesn't explain how Kris shows up on the 8th because the Indigenous wouldn't have stayed throughout or told their tribe…
And Magnus also wrote: "Hypothesis is nothing. By hypothesis we are all martians. There is no data linking any of the girls to that jungle, it is that simple, so you can speculate yourself however you like. None, not one bit of evidence which is usually (in our countries) done to link items to a particular place was done. In fact, the only one visible clue was from Kinga Phillips whose native interviewee said that landscape was from the other side of the Mirador. The fact their water bottle wasn't empty shows not only that the girls weren't dehydrated; they weren't bothered by carrying that extra weight (when you're exhausted and at the brink of collapse carrying 100 grams will feel like 100 tons but here that is not the case). Then if they survived 10 days, they found a constant supply of nutrition which would enable them to head back at any time. They also had shelter from the start as - basic survival rule - you can't survive 3 hours without shelter. And the impenetrable jungle hell they went through was so bad their short shorts were more than enough to pass it (in a real jungle this would be impossible, the small cuts alone would be horrific not mentioning snakes or bugs). As for the river: a sustainable current would have to form to carry that weight (of the backpack) 10 kilometers or so downstream. So a shallow river would have to lift that bag, not easy. Then driven by gravity that backpack would descend downstream but would miraculously not just overcome bends and rocks, but actually avoid hitting any of them or the equipment inside would be damaged or the backpack would tear. Then it would have to be waterproof. This is a basic light fabric cheap backpack. If this backpack actually existed I guarantee every single army soldier would have one and then everyone in the world: miracle backpack! There is a horrible void in evidence here (all sources call this "mysterious" because we know literally nothing as a fact) and I do blame the dutch, not the Panamanians who have enough trouble already. It's the Dutch that should have stepped up and they did nothing. We can't even trust the photos, it's that bad… By the angle of the rain on day 8 they should be able to confirm if in fact they were taken on day 8, based on weather data, but I haven't even seen that done. Then as the area is so small a basic air reconnaissance would be more than enough to track the location of the rocks of "Day 8", which are far too big not to be traced. From that location a pathway linking to the Mirador would be easy and then we would get some why's... [..] Yeah, if it was possible to get sucked into that jungle and be obliged to trek for about 8 days and 5 kilometers across thick forestation so as to fall into a river (simultaneously) that would be a regular occurrence as well as beyond Einstein level Physics, not a ridiculously absurd one off as in this case. The perfect illustration is the Madeira mountains: people absolutely do get lost there & some fall off ravines. But this can happen to anyone, not just this specific target. Nature isn't picky like that. Also there is no way someone would insist on going down a mountain after just crossing over a side they know it's safe (as in has restaurants, cell phone coverage, etc...) and absolutely you'd be able to tell you're descending a 2 km high peak. I am sure a minimum of technology would clarify the girls entire path, problem is Panama doesn't have it."
And I wrote myself:
"In my opinion, it was a murder to sell organs. Girls are excellent candidates as donors in all respects, healthy young, up to 25 years. From this it follows that there is no finding of whole parts of the body, there are only some bones and a little bit of a skin. There are phosphates on the two bones Kris found (pelvis and rib) - this suggests that they tried to get rid of the body from which the organs were cut out in chemical way. They found only three Lysanne bones, a hip, a shin, a foot of one left leg and some skin, which says that they were dismembered. Under natural conditions, the body does not split up like this in 2 months and animals cannot tear to pieces the corpse. I think that a guide was involved in this, but he acted not alone, but with an assistant. The girls were killed on the first day, the rest is a scene of an accident, in which there are many errors or inconsistencies such as deleting a 509 photo on a computer, juggling photos in order not to see the course of events and not to find out the truth, disagreement of witness testimonies, killing witnesses who knows the girls etc. They did not want to thoroughly investigate the case and study the evidence in detail, since everyone already knew in advance and since this is a tourist area and any information about the murder can frighten visiting tourists. The only thing the abductors did not expect was that the case would be so publicized and that the parents would arrive, the search would begin, so they began to throw out a little evidence like a backpack (where all the equipment remained intact and unharmed and had already been adjusted and cleaned for the police photo and selfphones), emergency phone calls (I doubt very much that the girls did it because they called at a certain time, a couple of times, not persistently, did not leave a single dying message, video, inscriptions, at least something to indicate that that they were lost), shorts, weird night photo to make us use our imagination, passes counterfeiting, parts of the body, but to make it look like an accident, and we believed in it. I am very sorry for the girls, and especially their parents, who were given to understand that it is better to believe in an accident and refuse further investigations. The truth is out there....."
Inge P. replied: "Makes a lot of sense...but in order to preserve very fragile organs, they need to be removed in a sterile setting, placed in a chemical base fluid, and rushed to the receiving hospital. Organs are only viable for 2-4 hrs, but I might be wrong with that. That's were the red truck comes in....I think the girls either voluntarily got in, or were forced into it. They were then driven to Panama city, close to an airport or somewhere were a helicopter would pick up the organs. What a nightmarish scenario....or they were hunted, raped and killed in the jungle for the killers own sadistic reason.How did the the pelvis broke apart?? Well, guys carry machetes in there, and it may be that how they died...hacked apart. I'm getting terrible visions here....I hope they at least died quick. Horrible way to go, and so young."
Magnus wrote about the survival part on youtube: "I can relate to getting lost in the wilderness as I hike a lot & have got lost quite a few times. As beginner hikers: we left an easy mountain trail to explore a new beautiful side of the mountain. We had packed light, it was freezing cold so we couldn't stay past sunset, which was at 5 p.m. Within 2 hours I almost fell off a ravine & she into an ice cold river. So I can relate. It was a serious problem getting off the mountain by sunset (it was freezing cold and we were packing light so staying overnight was certain death). We even moved forward to find the way off the mountain rather than go back, exactly like here. However, our path back was erratic, we were wandering around lost, NEVER a straight line like in this case. Also we knew the trail had a start and an end - no way one moves forward "hoping to find a way out" without knowing it beforehand. The shift in behaviour equally makes no sense. When I go off exploring a new exciting part I take a lot more pictures, not a lot less. We also immediately used reference points to find our way - like the huge mountain behind us, again it's impossible to just ignore references and head forward into the unknown. You do consider your loved ones immediately, it makes no sense not leaving a message. I also absolutely do not cut off communication like they did or not leave messages to loved ones. It's the exact opposite. Also the basic way to escape is navigate on sight, you see a big mountain you came from & you head in that direction but in this case they literally turned their back on their reference point, for a whole week. Once me & my gf regrouped after getting lost we immediately formulated a plan, were rational: there is NO way these girls or whoever was with them stayed irrational for a whole week. Impossible. The search area in this case is also really small & populated, not a remote deep jungle off civilization, nothing can get lost here, it would be like getting lost in Hawai. So the only explanation is - like almost happened to me & my gf - both girls dying immediately on April 1st within hours of taking their last photos, in accidents, and then an Indigenous person or someone finding them and using the phones to try and report them to the police. Now this doesn't explain how Kris shows up on the 8th because the Indigenous wouldn't have stayed throughout or told their tribe…
[..] What I can say from my expertise (which is anything physical) is:
a) you need to be disoriented to get lost and there were too many very easy landmarks available there;
b) the pace of Kris & Lisanne in the jungle is simply not possible, no one moves like that;
c) the phone call pattern isn't feasible either, only a machine would do that (someone without emotions);
d) their gear being intact as the bodies were torn apart isn't possible, at all; e) the place is too small & populated for someone to be lost that long;
f) the lack of evidence is too great;
g) their movement pattern, away from the Mirador straight into the jungle is not possible.
h) then the night photos show an intelligent pattern and lucid decision making 8 days later which contradicts being helpless. & i'm sure i'll find more and more wrong with this, like
i) not leaving farewell messages, extreme shifts in behaviour, etc etc. Only hope is Hollywood makes a film & powerful people get involved."
And Magnus also wrote: "Hypothesis is nothing. By hypothesis we are all martians. There is no data linking any of the girls to that jungle, it is that simple, so you can speculate yourself however you like. None, not one bit of evidence which is usually (in our countries) done to link items to a particular place was done. In fact, the only one visible clue was from Kinga Phillips whose native interviewee said that landscape was from the other side of the Mirador. The fact their water bottle wasn't empty shows not only that the girls weren't dehydrated; they weren't bothered by carrying that extra weight (when you're exhausted and at the brink of collapse carrying 100 grams will feel like 100 tons but here that is not the case). Then if they survived 10 days, they found a constant supply of nutrition which would enable them to head back at any time. They also had shelter from the start as - basic survival rule - you can't survive 3 hours without shelter. And the impenetrable jungle hell they went through was so bad their short shorts were more than enough to pass it (in a real jungle this would be impossible, the small cuts alone would be horrific not mentioning snakes or bugs). As for the river: a sustainable current would have to form to carry that weight (of the backpack) 10 kilometers or so downstream. So a shallow river would have to lift that bag, not easy. Then driven by gravity that backpack would descend downstream but would miraculously not just overcome bends and rocks, but actually avoid hitting any of them or the equipment inside would be damaged or the backpack would tear. Then it would have to be waterproof. This is a basic light fabric cheap backpack. If this backpack actually existed I guarantee every single army soldier would have one and then everyone in the world: miracle backpack! There is a horrible void in evidence here (all sources call this "mysterious" because we know literally nothing as a fact) and I do blame the dutch, not the Panamanians who have enough trouble already. It's the Dutch that should have stepped up and they did nothing. We can't even trust the photos, it's that bad… By the angle of the rain on day 8 they should be able to confirm if in fact they were taken on day 8, based on weather data, but I haven't even seen that done. Then as the area is so small a basic air reconnaissance would be more than enough to track the location of the rocks of "Day 8", which are far too big not to be traced. From that location a pathway linking to the Mirador would be easy and then we would get some why's... [..] Yeah, if it was possible to get sucked into that jungle and be obliged to trek for about 8 days and 5 kilometers across thick forestation so as to fall into a river (simultaneously) that would be a regular occurrence as well as beyond Einstein level Physics, not a ridiculously absurd one off as in this case. The perfect illustration is the Madeira mountains: people absolutely do get lost there & some fall off ravines. But this can happen to anyone, not just this specific target. Nature isn't picky like that. Also there is no way someone would insist on going down a mountain after just crossing over a side they know it's safe (as in has restaurants, cell phone coverage, etc...) and absolutely you'd be able to tell you're descending a 2 km high peak. I am sure a minimum of technology would clarify the girls entire path, problem is Panama doesn't have it."
And I wrote myself:
"I believe that the girls were not alone on that mountain, and in effect did get off the trail again, going swimming afterward. I do not believe they got lost, I think they were kidnapped after being pictured swimming with local young men. Both were killed relatively soon after the girls went missing. And I believe that the emergency calls after day 1 were staged by the perpetrators (same for the vague night photos - notice how not a single selfie was made after 14:00 April 1st; no text messages, no call attempts to their families, nothing for 11 days that can identify those girls, alive). The location of the night photos has not yet been proven. Some people say they must have been taken near a monkey bridge, but there is no photo evidence linking the two. Also, these bridges lay along the main road (!) back to the Mirador and Boquete, They have farmers, locals and tourists and such passing by daily. Aside from the search teams of course, who went there and found nobody there. These river crossings also lie close to inhabited houses, which you can see the light off at night from the river. I do not think these pictures were taken behind the Pianista trail (hence why nobody found them there), but in the Caldera area, where their swimming photo was also taken roughly in that region. The places where their very few bones were found, were 14 walking hours up north from these bridges. The backpack was planted there and the bone remnants were found on land, not in or near the river. They had no microscopic markings from animal teeth or claws and neither any signs from having been dragged along by a river; these rivers have many rocks and the bones would have shown signs of bouncing off those rocks, the forensic specialist has stated. They did not.
And regarding them supposedly 'getting lost' early on: I have a video up on my youtube channel showing the parents from Kris walking the same trail. Beyond the point of the last photo 508. They insist there is no way that Kris and Lisanne could have gotten lost there. And last month the Travel Channel sent two presenters down the same route, and they walked all the way til the first cable bridge. They reinforce; there is no way they could have gotten lost there. There simply is no possibility to fall anywhere or get off trail. Nevertheless you will find legions of people dragging in poisonous snakes and puma's and ravines and wild rivers as possible causes. But make no mistake; every single person who actually walked this terrain and beyond says the same thing; the area is inhabited; every single day they ran into multiple locals along the way; people live along the rivers; farmers walk their cattle in the whole area. It is not the middle of the Amazon or the Dorién Gap. And none of the girls' belongings, jeans shorts, the backpack, the bones, the phones, nothing showed a sign of an animal attack. No ravines either and the ones that do exist are all along the top of the Pianista trail (unless you go far off trail at the Baru volcano for instance), which was searched extensively, with people going down on ropes everywhere and Dutch sniffer dog units on duty. They were not there. No clear signs of a fall in a ravine either on the jeans shorts that was found or the backpack. The bones found were dry on the inside (pathologist has revealed in the Panamanian media what he found) they had not been laying in the river. Again, hard facts. And at the end of August 2014, a rolled up ball of skin from lisanne's shin bone was found. In that vast wilderness. Don't ask me how (the pathologist couldn't believe it either), and what is more puzzling; the skin was 4/5th intact still and in a very early stage of decomposition. Now that is a real important piece of evidence in this case. You'd think people would prioritize such details in their discussions right? Oh no. They rather debate the dangers of hiking and puma's. It's so childish it's not even funny anymore."
S. Pilchard wrote about the night photos to Juan:
David wrote me about the newly published photos and diaries: "By chance came across your updates, and learned of Juan's remarkable latest finds with some great astonishment! There has been such a great deal of movement on this story it is hard to process it all... and while I did try to post to your blog it wasn't co-operating. So here I will speak... I have been away from this for at least three months - the plight of Lisanne and Kris interests me greatly yes but I do find it overpowering emotionally after a while and need to walk away for a time, the wealth of information the two left behind in the form of the many many photographs and now these diary entries comes together to make this an unusually personal and deeply sad story, I have never come across a tragedy this personal in its aftermath. I do find the degree of intimacy in publishing the girls diaries in this public a manner distasteful for instance, I cannot imagine the families being agreeable as to such intimate and private information being in the public domain and spread across the global internet, and understandably so. And yet while we can question the ethical aspect to continually examining and exploring their final days like this, in the end I do firmly believe it is the right thing to do. That it is important in order to make sure neither are forgotten and the case surrounding their disappearance and discovery is kept alive and active. I am convinced that somewhere out there there are answers still, and they can be found only if their story is kept alive and ongoing... For me it is always about finding closure for the two girls, but also consideration for the families involved. And the reality is any answers found have to come from pages like this and your blog, and the reach they can have, because by now it is very clear the will from The Netherlands, or elsewhere, simply isn't there to push for them."
And: "The extended photographs are as disturbing to me as they are stunning, despite their bizarre nature there is a lot to talk about in the new ones, particularly fascinating though are the night photos. I spent time examining them the other day and their sheer abstract nature still baffles me, and everyone else no doubt, and yet while they tell us not much at all, one detail that occurred to me (and we've discussed it before) is how much of our understanding of these pictures, and the events surrounding them, is actually based on nothing more than assumptions. The dangerous aspect to the story of Lisanne and Kris' disappearance is that assumptions made by authoritative sources and supposed investigators became taken as a 'fact' early on, little details on the trail and fate of the two being guessed at only, and yet reported as being a fact. And while looking through the fascinating nighttime photo set by Juan, I found myself caught in just such a long-held 'assumption' as it struck me that what the photo's showed was someone using the flash of the camera to check the fall of the rain and its effect on the river... this seemed a clever deduction by me. Although that set of nighttime photos don't show anything at all meaningful, they did strongly suggest to me that the only reason someone was using that Camera-flash, eight days in, in the early hours, with just two hours before dawn as you yourself say, has to be because they are checking the flood level of the river with all this rain pouring. It seems logical, what other reason could they be using the camera like this for three continuous hours in the late night? The joy of this brilliant realization lasts perhaps a day, as it then occurs to me that this is me unconsciously referring back to Rick Kleeks Daily Beast article and his declaration of the same - that Lisanne (Kris is either dead or close to it according to him) is taking these photographs to log the location she is in, as the river they are on is going to sweep away Kris, and she will use the photos later to return to the location, Presumably. And that's the danger of assumption - early on in this case people made assumptions that became taken as being facts. Because it occurred to me eventually that, actually... there IS no evidence of a river in those 90 photographs. There is that large boulder to suggest it certainly, but whatever the reason Lisanne (or Kris) have for taking those late night shots is, it isn't because they are bothered by the river rising - they are in no danger from a river. If they were, if there IS a river they are camped by there, then it isn't interesting enough to warrant even one photo of it. Not one. And I found that realization startling... I'm not at all certain where the assumption that Kris had dies and Lisanne was using the camera to 'find' her started, but in his Daily Beast article Kleek [main source of it is American journalist Jeremy Kryt, Scarlet] certainly embellished on it, using the mysterious photo of Kris' head to claim that she is dead or dying and that this is the turning point to whatever finally happened to Lisanne. But we now have a completely unexpected chance to see that photo of Kris' head, and unless it has been cropped it shows... not a lot. The remarkable thing about that picture is how abstract is actually is, it tells us almost nothing. Like every other of the 90 photos that night it is abstract, if you wanted to set up a missing persons case like this and put 90 photos out there to deliberately mystify the world then you couldn't do much better than these photographs - they are just that odd to pour over, you do have to wonder at the point behind them, the purpose. What is the point to firing away for three hours at almost nothing? What is the point to making just one extreme close up of the back of your friends head? No other pictures of her. A mass of dry tangled hair, it could be a wig dangled before the camera for all we know... it tells us nothing. And you do come to wonder if this is the entire point. So 90 pictures, which if you take at face value as being taken by one of the girls on a night of downpours, don't tell us much of anything in themselves. But what is important in them is that they help us as being first-hand evidence, by seeing them all, in order, we can see what is there - not what other people see is there. And this is an important thing as
David also wrote:
One of the features of this case and their being lost is that we assume too much, myself included. I assume from the evidence that they walked themselves into the wilderness and got lost. That there was no foul play. And we also assume that they were completely alone out there, trying to walk themselves out of trouble, and sadly never came across a soul or dwelling place... We assume that Kris was comatose or dead when the night-time photo's were taken - all because of one inconclusive tight close up of her(?) mass of red hair that might possibly show some blood, or then again might not. We assume that they were crossing a rope bridge when an accident occurred, and Kris sadly fell from it, no evidence of this as such of course, we just assume... We assume that it is Lisanne taking those photos for over three hours that night. We assume that.... well, we assume too easily. I've been guilty of it too I stress, taking hand-me-down statements on this case as being fact, when as listed up above most of them are actually just assumptions let's be honest. No hard facts are actually supporting them. Watching this recreation of their route though, and the observations made by their parents, it does strike me that my own held assessment of Kris being the one mad keen to explore the other side and Lisanne being a reluctant partner at this stage might not be completely accurate. From all of the photographic evidence they left behind it does appear that Kris was storming ahead of Lisanne and leaving her carrying the bag and the camera, that is all but certain judging by what we see. Lisanne is well behind Kris, which suggests either reluctance to be there or simply that she just was not at all fast that day - an ankle injury perhaps? Whichever of those two it was it does suggest that Lisanne was neither willing or able to walk the massive distance they would have had to walk that day off into the wilderness. So as Kris' father notes here might it not be the case that the assumption that they carried on over the first stream is wrong? I had felt that this would be the point where Lisanne put the camera away because she was either unhappy and/or had to focus on catching up with the much faster Kris... But again, if she was not willing to walk the other side here, or was too slow, then by the point they reached the stream might they not have finally seen sense together and instead turned back...? Back the way they came. It's an interesting possibility. The time factor has to be a consideration too, if Lisanne is too slow by that point then simple maths tells the two that they HAVE to turn back in order to beat the sun setting and allow time to retrace their route safely. It's certainly a video that made me think again..."
Chiatos replied on websleuths:
A youtube member called 'Ghost' wrote below the video of the parents walking the trail:
SergeiGo99 wrote this about the case: "What if Kris and Lisanne really got back to the town and the people who claimed they saw the girls come back told the truth and were absolutely right? What if the Holandesas were actually kidnapped in Boquete and then held captive somewhere in a cellar/dungeon and had no reception there, so they couldn’t reach 911? I think that the suspicious guide has something to do with it, at least he definitely knows a lot, but he‘s never even been questioned due to his own refusal. I think that the whole thing might be somehow related to human trafficking, maybe sex slavery... I guess the kidnapper(s) knew that there would be no reception in the cellar and/or simply ignored the fact that the girls had phones with them because nothing would work anyway. Obviously the criminal(s) also had the ladies‘ belongings, especially the camera. I‘m sure it was quite easy to take away the cam from two scared, nervous and inexperienced European female tourists. Why? Think about the missing IMG_509. Maybe Kris and Lisanne managed to capture the kidnapper(s), so those needed to get rid of the evidence, just one picture that could be a clue. It was deleted on a computer. I‘m afraid that the girls spent several days in horrific conditions, they could be sexually abused or at least treated badly. I hope this explains why there were so many attempts to reach 911, but no photos taken. Maybe the evildoer(s) had a particular plan: transfer both girls to the neighbouring Costa Rica first. This particular case became very popular (unlike all the other cases) instantly, there were so many rumours spreading, also the launch of an investigation in cooperation with Dutch police and authorities was widely discussed. It could scare the kidnapper(s), so they decided to do everything faster and get rid of all the evidence. I have to say that I had read a lot of comments regarding this topic. Some of them are really interesting, especially those written by Panamanians and tourists who say that Panama is pretty dangerous and not really wealthy. There’s a common myth that the jungle around Boquete is barely explored. It’s not true, however, this myth is a good thing for the criminals because no one gets deep into the jungle (even the Indigenous people wouldn’t do it for no reason) which means that they can hide and commit crimes there and be sure they’ll never be found. Corruption is also a benefit for them in this case. The criminals perfectly know the jungle and all the pathways. The kidnapper(s) could be transferring the girls through the jungle at night and picked up their belongings as well. Something happened on the April 8th after 1 AM. There was a helicopter flying above the jungle and looking for the girls at that time (correct me if I’m wrong) and the criminal(s) could see it and get distracted or maybe something else happened. Anyway, the girls probably got a chance (an opportunity) to run for their lives, so they did it. When you know that you are endangered and might die any time soon, you don’t really think about anything. They ran into the pitch black. I guess that those 90 pics were taken by the kidnapper(s) that night. They ran after the girls, started chasing them using the camera flash. Then they found and killed both, or maybe the girls got injured (at least one of them) and died. Possibly the girls could take those pics while running away. There was a lot of attention to this case and the criminals knew it, so they decided to stage the whole thing as if it was an accident... who knows, maybe the rescue team found them, but due to corruption they let the criminals finish their evil deeds, anything could happen! JUST MY THEORY."
Matteo wrote:
There are some not unveiled causalities between these stepping stones. And some of the stones are yet too unsecured to step on. They are attached to hotspots in the area where 'something' may have happened. The places that we can pinpoint with more or less security are: the 2nd quebrada and the crossing path at the paddock; The 2nd cable bridge; an unknown place(s) where they sheltered form 2nd until 7th of April; and the river Culebra closer to the place where the backpack was found. They lay more or less in a straight line to the north. Things have most likely happened along that line. Non of this is hard evidenced truth, but all is more than just speculation. All in all much of the known facts are explainable from bad luck and unexperienced hiking, but there are some essential holes and things to be verified. - NB. Some think the authorities didn't do a good job. Indeed they never caused an essential breakthrough in the case. But they pursued all the indications they had and more. At some moment 150 men were involved in searching operations. The case has caused major impact on tourism policy and paths are now better indicated and secured. Panama is no longer the 'banana republic' some may still think it is, though there are differences with Dutch standards and possibilities. I value their work and the displayed resources to find the girls just like I value the individual efforts, like F's."
Torero replied: "I agree with you on most things, however:
lossincasa wrote in February 2020: "Why are there no clear photo's of the girls after the summit? Why the 911 call so soon into their 'trip'? (16:39 it was that's a couple of hours, just before light went out). Why not take a photo then, lets say of the surroundings? They knew they were lost but they didn't behave lost. They behaved scared, as if out of time to take pics, camp (cuz no site was found) and prob stay in the open enough for people to find them. Where did they sleep for 11 days? Why remove shorts and bras when lost and on the move? Why pack a bag and leave it behind when it has a candy in it? They were not hungry enough? They took a photo of the ravine. Why not turn around and followed back out? If they wanted to go for a swim but they got lost then going in circles is an option. A possibility. But they didn't leave stuff behind or near the trail as they did at that final spot. Nothing says the night photos (or the first time the camera was used) were taken by the girls. It is not difficult to take a photo of your friend, they knew how to do that. I always thought the photos remind me of someone looking around fast for something. Maybe for the other dead girl. Done by someone that had already found ( and photographed) twice the blond head/face we see. Or maybe the whole body. But that was a gross picture and he deleted it. Was there foul play? Impossible to say. I don't think the girls survived the whole 11 days. One of them died first probably on the first day. And the other after exhausting her battery, used or tried to use her friend's phone until day 5? Everything happened after that was done by the locals. They found their stuff first, then the backpack (probably empty) and then put everything in and returned it.
PS: The guy (whose spouse 'found' the backpack) said in a recent documentary after looking at the picture of the girls crossing the small river wit the rocks, that this wasn't on their side of the divide. That was a path near the summit on the side. He may be lying but has anyone ever wondered if there was another way back? Another path? Not for the tourists but for the locals and the other good 'drug' selling Indigenous. Something tells me there is. And the girls found it."
"Juan, thanks again. I'm happy you sketched somewhat of a scenario in this vid. A psychopath killer, perhaps, but definitely the work of a criminal, or several criminals. A couple of things are clear, to me, first, the perpetrator knows the area extremely well. Secondly, he's from the area and it is not suspicious if he walks the trail frequently. If you watch Lost in The Wild, you see that eyes are following hosts Kinga and JJ everywhere, especially at the start. A stranger just can not go unseen on that trail. Third: the perpetrator may be someone that holds some power over the locals, maybe so much power (and/or feelings of loyalty) that they are prepared to even cover up murder for him/them. So, a guide, forest ranger, farmer, cowboy, local or government official from the area are all fitting that profile. Indeed, the night pictures are a diversion. They're created to tell the getting-lost story. The last picture, of Kris' hair, just gives it all away. It is a close-up, because the perpetrator did not want to show any surroundings, but there is absolutely no wound or blood to be seen (as Kryt wrote). It's put in to link the night pictures to Kris and Lisanne. I think the hair looks messy and thin, maybe Kris wasn't even alive on this picture. My hunch is that the killer waited a couple of days, after killing Kris and Lisanne. Only after April 4, the search came into full swing. At first they even searched the wrong area. After a week or so, he decided it was time to write a definitive getting-lost scenario and took the night pictures somewhere else, where they were not searching at the time (Caldera)."
And Armando wrote about the night photos to Juan: "Hi Juan, I was reading the new comments on your photo album and I've seen there are many people (I think most of all in good faith) who are still trying to give a significance to the (so called) night pictures, trying to search for help signal, body presence or blood on Kris pictures, etc. I think, as you've always stated, those pictures are only a "fog of war" (using a video game term) put in the smartphone to confuse investigators, journalists, etc. This hypothesis is still confirmed by the fact that, as you noticed us, when the guide entered the girl's room, there were their phones in it. Probably he or someone else, stole the phones and gave them to the "good men" who altered the pictures. I think that we should point up to the fact that the night pictures are only an horrible joke to confuse or to lead the authorities to what the "right explanation" should be."
David wrote me about the newly published photos and diaries: "By chance came across your updates, and learned of Juan's remarkable latest finds with some great astonishment! There has been such a great deal of movement on this story it is hard to process it all... and while I did try to post to your blog it wasn't co-operating. So here I will speak... I have been away from this for at least three months - the plight of Lisanne and Kris interests me greatly yes but I do find it overpowering emotionally after a while and need to walk away for a time, the wealth of information the two left behind in the form of the many many photographs and now these diary entries comes together to make this an unusually personal and deeply sad story, I have never come across a tragedy this personal in its aftermath. I do find the degree of intimacy in publishing the girls diaries in this public a manner distasteful for instance, I cannot imagine the families being agreeable as to such intimate and private information being in the public domain and spread across the global internet, and understandably so. And yet while we can question the ethical aspect to continually examining and exploring their final days like this, in the end I do firmly believe it is the right thing to do. That it is important in order to make sure neither are forgotten and the case surrounding their disappearance and discovery is kept alive and active. I am convinced that somewhere out there there are answers still, and they can be found only if their story is kept alive and ongoing... For me it is always about finding closure for the two girls, but also consideration for the families involved. And the reality is any answers found have to come from pages like this and your blog, and the reach they can have, because by now it is very clear the will from The Netherlands, or elsewhere, simply isn't there to push for them."
And: "The extended photographs are as disturbing to me as they are stunning, despite their bizarre nature there is a lot to talk about in the new ones, particularly fascinating though are the night photos. I spent time examining them the other day and their sheer abstract nature still baffles me, and everyone else no doubt, and yet while they tell us not much at all, one detail that occurred to me (and we've discussed it before) is how much of our understanding of these pictures, and the events surrounding them, is actually based on nothing more than assumptions. The dangerous aspect to the story of Lisanne and Kris' disappearance is that assumptions made by authoritative sources and supposed investigators became taken as a 'fact' early on, little details on the trail and fate of the two being guessed at only, and yet reported as being a fact. And while looking through the fascinating nighttime photo set by Juan, I found myself caught in just such a long-held 'assumption' as it struck me that what the photo's showed was someone using the flash of the camera to check the fall of the rain and its effect on the river... this seemed a clever deduction by me. Although that set of nighttime photos don't show anything at all meaningful, they did strongly suggest to me that the only reason someone was using that Camera-flash, eight days in, in the early hours, with just two hours before dawn as you yourself say, has to be because they are checking the flood level of the river with all this rain pouring. It seems logical, what other reason could they be using the camera like this for three continuous hours in the late night? The joy of this brilliant realization lasts perhaps a day, as it then occurs to me that this is me unconsciously referring back to Rick Kleeks Daily Beast article and his declaration of the same - that Lisanne (Kris is either dead or close to it according to him) is taking these photographs to log the location she is in, as the river they are on is going to sweep away Kris, and she will use the photos later to return to the location, Presumably. And that's the danger of assumption - early on in this case people made assumptions that became taken as being facts. Because it occurred to me eventually that, actually... there IS no evidence of a river in those 90 photographs. There is that large boulder to suggest it certainly, but whatever the reason Lisanne (or Kris) have for taking those late night shots is, it isn't because they are bothered by the river rising - they are in no danger from a river. If they were, if there IS a river they are camped by there, then it isn't interesting enough to warrant even one photo of it. Not one. And I found that realization startling... I'm not at all certain where the assumption that Kris had dies and Lisanne was using the camera to 'find' her started, but in his Daily Beast article Kleek [main source of it is American journalist Jeremy Kryt, Scarlet] certainly embellished on it, using the mysterious photo of Kris' head to claim that she is dead or dying and that this is the turning point to whatever finally happened to Lisanne. But we now have a completely unexpected chance to see that photo of Kris' head, and unless it has been cropped it shows... not a lot. The remarkable thing about that picture is how abstract is actually is, it tells us almost nothing. Like every other of the 90 photos that night it is abstract, if you wanted to set up a missing persons case like this and put 90 photos out there to deliberately mystify the world then you couldn't do much better than these photographs - they are just that odd to pour over, you do have to wonder at the point behind them, the purpose. What is the point to firing away for three hours at almost nothing? What is the point to making just one extreme close up of the back of your friends head? No other pictures of her. A mass of dry tangled hair, it could be a wig dangled before the camera for all we know... it tells us nothing. And you do come to wonder if this is the entire point. So 90 pictures, which if you take at face value as being taken by one of the girls on a night of downpours, don't tell us much of anything in themselves. But what is important in them is that they help us as being first-hand evidence, by seeing them all, in order, we can see what is there - not what other people see is there. And this is an important thing as
with these photos now known to us we can see how much the misinterpretation of others has both misinformed us over the last few years and how it led to some serious misunderstanding about what the evidence DID show.
There is no hard evidence that Kris was critically injured or dies that night. There is no convincing evidence whatsoever that the two are by a river on this night. And there isn't even a guarantee that the photographer is Lisanne Froon. All there ever was was an Assumption... and that is the true value of seeing the full array of photographs from that night. We can now get back to the source evidence rather than rely on hearsay and wild speculation on what happened that night and where the two actually were. These photographs can stand on their own now. Best of Wishes, Dave!"
David also wrote:
"I'm really very impressed with the amount of thought and detail in your posts here and will certainly be reading your blog this week! It is a welcome surprise to find someone so interested and very well versed in the case, I first came across the fate of Lisanne and Kris over a year ago and was absorbed by it for some time, but at a certain point there was nothing left to say on the subject and no one had anything fresh or genuinely thoughtful ideas to add on the details known, you have just pleasantly overturned that assumption. I did feel, after studying what information was available that the probability was this was a case of two girls getting hopelessly lost and the wilderness taking them. One interesting feature to their story is their commitment to recording their adventures, it was possible by looking at their photographs that first day to track their progress to the top of the Pianista, we see they share the backpack on the way up and IIRC the camera too. When they get to the top and celebrate we see Lisanne let her hair down, which suggested to me that she considered their mission accomplished and expected to be heading back down. Kris on the other hand has tied her hair up... and from the next few photos is racing down the other side of the Pianista with Lisanne following. Unlike the trip up she is the one now left carrying the backpack, and the camera, and as we can see seems to be as much as thirty feet behind Kris as she races downwards. I do get the impression Lisanne was not sharing her enthusiasm here. Did she finally pack away the camera when they reached that first stream due to her reluctance to be here, and the need to try to keep up with Kris? There seemed to me to be some tension of sorts at this point. With Kris stubbornly racing on and leaving or daring Lisanne to keep up with her. Still, while I can rationalize much about what happened and lean towards the "misadventure" conclusion, there were still aspects that suggested there was more to the case - such as their bizarre phone logs - and the fact hat if you accept they had reached as far as that Monkey Bridge and Kris fell from it while crossing, then this in itself would mean they were very close to being somewhere; after all that bridge is a route, with a path either end of it. And paths lead somewhere... so is it really feasible that the two spend at least four days wandering, get that far, but don't come across a single soul? Even when (theoretically) they are now both trapped in the gully beneath the bridge, where someone at some point IS going to see them. Or at least see their remains.... There are an awful lot of odd questions that hang over their fate, even if you lean to the simplest verdict that they got lost and were victims of their own misadventure there is no way to rationalise things like their phone logs or the fact that there are in the end another three boots, two tops, two skulls, and assorted major bones that were never recovered. The unfortunate truth is that when people disappear into the wilderness like this they very much walk off the map and out of our lives pretty much. Here is a story where the verdict has to be misadventure on the face of it, and yet.... those phone logs. Impossible to make sense of if the two were desperately lost for several days and forced to sleep in pitch black jungle with endless nights to pass time in. Of course you will be using your phone for company, indeed dead of night is your best chance of getting a clear signal.... They maintain a regular pattern according to the phone details. This suggests them staying at or around a shelter, hiding or in an area with some comfort. [..] The photos as they cross the top and over the other side are the only hard evidence before those night time photos several days later. I have always suspected that Lisanne was the reluctant one from judging these photos as she is the one who is now carrying the backpack and the camera while Kris roars down the hill way in front of her in all of those several photographs. Lisanne is possibly unhappy and on top of that has to keep up with the headstrong Kris so puts away the camera and sets off in pursuit of her. So that is one likely scenario to my mind that leads to disaster eventually. But, as you say, who is to say for sure that they didn't in fact turn back after that final photo at the stream? Lisanne puts away the camera as their exploration is now finished, and a trek back home and a nice shower and supper awaits.... But then we have the problem that if they did return to the top of the Mirador their phones would have reconnected to the network, and that apparently didn't happen. I don't believe they would have turned off their phones, that makes no sense at all, so whichever way you look at this the evidence does suggest that they did in fact proceed onwards down the other side...
One of the features of this case and their being lost is that we assume too much, myself included. I assume from the evidence that they walked themselves into the wilderness and got lost. That there was no foul play. And we also assume that they were completely alone out there, trying to walk themselves out of trouble, and sadly never came across a soul or dwelling place... We assume that Kris was comatose or dead when the night-time photo's were taken - all because of one inconclusive tight close up of her(?) mass of red hair that might possibly show some blood, or then again might not. We assume that they were crossing a rope bridge when an accident occurred, and Kris sadly fell from it, no evidence of this as such of course, we just assume... We assume that it is Lisanne taking those photos for over three hours that night. We assume that.... well, we assume too easily. I've been guilty of it too I stress, taking hand-me-down statements on this case as being fact, when as listed up above most of them are actually just assumptions let's be honest. No hard facts are actually supporting them. Watching this recreation of their route though, and the observations made by their parents, it does strike me that my own held assessment of Kris being the one mad keen to explore the other side and Lisanne being a reluctant partner at this stage might not be completely accurate. From all of the photographic evidence they left behind it does appear that Kris was storming ahead of Lisanne and leaving her carrying the bag and the camera, that is all but certain judging by what we see. Lisanne is well behind Kris, which suggests either reluctance to be there or simply that she just was not at all fast that day - an ankle injury perhaps? Whichever of those two it was it does suggest that Lisanne was neither willing or able to walk the massive distance they would have had to walk that day off into the wilderness. So as Kris' father notes here might it not be the case that the assumption that they carried on over the first stream is wrong? I had felt that this would be the point where Lisanne put the camera away because she was either unhappy and/or had to focus on catching up with the much faster Kris... But again, if she was not willing to walk the other side here, or was too slow, then by the point they reached the stream might they not have finally seen sense together and instead turned back...? Back the way they came. It's an interesting possibility. The time factor has to be a consideration too, if Lisanne is too slow by that point then simple maths tells the two that they HAVE to turn back in order to beat the sun setting and allow time to retrace their route safely. It's certainly a video that made me think again..."
"Hi Matteo, snipped because of length. I agree with you on most things, however:
- The regular attempt pattern in the end does not have to be so regular (more attempts came from the Telegraaf; I agree, not the best source, but at least one-)
- SINAPROC was far away that night of the 8th of April.
- I think walking through or next to the river was easiest. Climbing down for 2-3 days seem a far too long a time to me. Not only to Dutch but to international standards the Panamese Prutsers did not do a good job. Had they done, the fingerprints of all people involved would have been taken (a common practice even when changing money here!). Also no suspects or others involved were questioned. All findings have been done by the locals. It is not a banana republic, I agree. But even for Latin American standards it was very badly done. [...] That they followed the river makes sense indeed. Not only because of water supply, also because we're talking thick dense jungle away from it. The remains in my opinion (could) have been transported by the river. Very hard to draw conclusions as the first remains were found only 75 days after their disappearance. In that time, during rainy season, the river has swollen and sunk multiple times. The boot of Lisanne seems to be in situ, I agree with you on that. If it were the river, it would be strange to wash it and leave it behind a tree. But that would mean Lisanne walked upstream without her backpack and all her valuables. It might be she was so derailed because of fatigue, hunger and/or illness that she thought to leave it behind. But then, still the lack of photos is a mystery. But there's more evidence than WE know. The parents and the investigators have ALL the evidence. And they are convinced of a crime. That means there are clues towards it. See it as a puzzle. We are constructing an incomplete puzzle. We do not have a large part of it. They do. They construct the same puzzle. But on their parts of the puzzle (the ones we don't have) a criminal appears. How strong is our case to say 'come on, it's simple case of getting lost?' [..] I am not saying that all Panamanians are molesters. I am simply stating the obvious. As a blond Dutch guy in Latin America I know we attract attention. And yes, opportunity is there and molesting is easy. If in a group, I do not believe 1 average height Panamanian (1,73 or so) could keep 2 tall girls under control. But also that is a matter of when. What if the girls were lost and finally found someone who took advantage of their despair? There's no direct evidence for it. No, that's easy, with so little bones found. Strangling is still possible. Rape, I hope it didn't happen, is still an option. Excluding that on the basis of our (even their;the investigators-) incomplete puzzle is just not fair. The point is the photos. We know they took a lot of pictures. Going from a lot to zero is strange. No matter my experience, it's them. And no, we cannot ask them, but we can use previous pictures to tackle the frequency."
Chiatos replied on websleuths:
"I look at the whole picture, the bras are only one part of the whole picture and I know for a fact that it takes weeks to lose so much weight to have to remove your bra. I believe that they did not survive for so many weeks in the wild, unless they were held captive. After all those weeks in the wild, before having to remove their bras, they would have reached someone. And if that someone would have had good intentions, they would have been helped. But for some reason these poor girls ended up dead. Meaning that they did not reach someone with good intentions. According to some, they did not reach anyone at all. The huts/ fincas between the 2nd and 3rd crossing belong to relatives/family of Martina who said that she saw the girls at the start of the trail (source: Baru). They live there permanently. And that is nearby where the jeans have been found, neatly zipped up and lying on a rock I believe."
A youtube member called 'Ghost' wrote below the video of the parents walking the trail:"The two girls would have experienced a living nightmare before they perished. At night not only would it have been extremely cold but pitch black. A jungle in that part of the world cannot be penetrated by the light of the moon, so the girls would have been in a living nightmare of total blackness. They would have not even been able to see their own hands had they raised them up to their faces. Just one hour spent in such an environment would have been terrifying. The first night would have passed with unrelenting slowness. It would been an utterly crucifying experience. In all likelihood the girls wouldn't have been able to sleep at any point during that first night. Then in the morning the entire nightmare of being lost in such vast and unfamiliar environment would have begun all over again for them. Hunger would have torn at their throats, and when finally they quenched their thirst in the spars rivers they encountered it would have eventually given them excruciating diarrhea, which would have both exhausted and dehydrated them. The second night spent in the jungle would have heightened their terror to new heights, as they would have well recalled the slow passing nightmare of their first night. By the fourth day crushed by utter exhaustion the girls would have started to hallucinate horribly. Their minds would have conjured up frightening phantoms and monsters out of the trees and rocks, and it is likely that at some point that one or both girls had a terrifying panic attack and began to scream and run. This i believe is how the two girls sustained their injuries. Having walked for countless miles it appears from some of the photos that they realised they had walked in one massive circle. The realization of this would have totally crushed their moral and spirits. The girls would have had epic episodes of crying pitifully and holding each other close in utter despair of the nightmare that lay oppressively and without end all around them. The bitter cold, diarrhea, exposed, lack of food, physical and mental exhaustion along with nights that seemingly had no end would have all finally drained away their will to live. Every step they took would have required immense effort and energy. If ever they stopped to take a rest the cold or intense heat of the day would have sucked all the remaining life out of them. After ten days total defeat and despair would have overcome the girls. Their minds which would have often floated over the memories of their lives... their childhoods, parents, friends, party life, aspirations, careers through out their ordeal would have by now begun to yield to tremendous sorrow and sense of profound loss. And all the dreams entertained by the girls, the wish for children of their own, to have an adorable husband and beautiful home to live would have finally begun to shrink into an immense abyss of nothingness as slowly they took their final rest on the jungle floor, held each other close and fell into an eternal blissful sleep."
But a Spanish speaking member called Gri Mora (Grey Sea) replied to him (translated by google translate): "It is a good theory. But in these countries, corruption, injustice and insecurity predominate. These words are perhaps distant for the country of origin of these young people, but they are key words that must be taken into account in order to try to understand what happened. Here there are no myths and legends like the rabbit Indians that are cannibals or anything like that. They were two very young girls full of life. If one had an accident, the other could leave the Boquete again. The same parents walked the path and said that they did not find the route difficult. If there was an extreme danger as they were allowed to enter? Many people toured that place. Hunger can never die after 8 days. All those days had the sun and brightness of the day to look for the way back. They were attacked by someone who followed them or knew that they were there. They did not go unnoticed. A lady who lives near the entrance said she was struck by two girls alone and wearing shorts. That the bodies have not been found is a key detail to erase evidence. Soon the taxi driver who had hit them was killed. What did the taxi driver know? He was killed because he told someone that two girls were entering? We have to be realist. I hope justice is done and the truth is known."
SergeiGo99 wrote this about the case: "What if Kris and Lisanne really got back to the town and the people who claimed they saw the girls come back told the truth and were absolutely right? What if the Holandesas were actually kidnapped in Boquete and then held captive somewhere in a cellar/dungeon and had no reception there, so they couldn’t reach 911? I think that the suspicious guide has something to do with it, at least he definitely knows a lot, but he‘s never even been questioned due to his own refusal. I think that the whole thing might be somehow related to human trafficking, maybe sex slavery... I guess the kidnapper(s) knew that there would be no reception in the cellar and/or simply ignored the fact that the girls had phones with them because nothing would work anyway. Obviously the criminal(s) also had the ladies‘ belongings, especially the camera. I‘m sure it was quite easy to take away the cam from two scared, nervous and inexperienced European female tourists. Why? Think about the missing IMG_509. Maybe Kris and Lisanne managed to capture the kidnapper(s), so those needed to get rid of the evidence, just one picture that could be a clue. It was deleted on a computer. I‘m afraid that the girls spent several days in horrific conditions, they could be sexually abused or at least treated badly. I hope this explains why there were so many attempts to reach 911, but no photos taken. Maybe the evildoer(s) had a particular plan: transfer both girls to the neighbouring Costa Rica first. This particular case became very popular (unlike all the other cases) instantly, there were so many rumours spreading, also the launch of an investigation in cooperation with Dutch police and authorities was widely discussed. It could scare the kidnapper(s), so they decided to do everything faster and get rid of all the evidence. I have to say that I had read a lot of comments regarding this topic. Some of them are really interesting, especially those written by Panamanians and tourists who say that Panama is pretty dangerous and not really wealthy. There’s a common myth that the jungle around Boquete is barely explored. It’s not true, however, this myth is a good thing for the criminals because no one gets deep into the jungle (even the Indigenous people wouldn’t do it for no reason) which means that they can hide and commit crimes there and be sure they’ll never be found. Corruption is also a benefit for them in this case. The criminals perfectly know the jungle and all the pathways. The kidnapper(s) could be transferring the girls through the jungle at night and picked up their belongings as well. Something happened on the April 8th after 1 AM. There was a helicopter flying above the jungle and looking for the girls at that time (correct me if I’m wrong) and the criminal(s) could see it and get distracted or maybe something else happened. Anyway, the girls probably got a chance (an opportunity) to run for their lives, so they did it. When you know that you are endangered and might die any time soon, you don’t really think about anything. They ran into the pitch black. I guess that those 90 pics were taken by the kidnapper(s) that night. They ran after the girls, started chasing them using the camera flash. Then they found and killed both, or maybe the girls got injured (at least one of them) and died. Possibly the girls could take those pics while running away. There was a lot of attention to this case and the criminals knew it, so they decided to stage the whole thing as if it was an accident... who knows, maybe the rescue team found them, but due to corruption they let the criminals finish their evil deeds, anything could happen! JUST MY THEORY."
A person commenting under one of my youtube videos on the Kris and Lisanne case said: 
Graham, June 6th 2019: "My theory is that Kris and Lisanne went to the summit ok, happily elated, and then something changed; malevolent men appeared. The women went down into the jungle and the photos show tension. The change on Kris’s facial expression and body stance after the summit tells me they had been joined by individuals who they were frightened of who were coercing them to walk away from the tourist area into jungle. It is no fun walking through jungle uncovered! At higher elevation the insect attacks on bare skin become severe in the higher cooler air the insects became bigger and far more aggressive particularly so at night. And a photo is erased; they were progressively under the control of men walking with them. They were taken hostage and held at a farm. The mobile phone calls and photos from that point were made by the perpetrators. Both women would have used texts as back up, even as records if they were lost or injured. The body parts were processed and pulverized, then a small amount taken miles along the river and placed for Indigenous to find. In that area the locals will be loyal to each other, there are so many co-dependencies and sudden violence. If someone informed they would have to disappear from the area to stay alive. Even if locals knew they would stay silent. I think the guides and the people at Il Pianista all know what happened. There is a culture gap, I know this from back packing in Colombia. A very sad situation. Years ago I trekked similar mountainous jungle in Colombia and sometimes we were trailed at a distance by lone malevolent men. They were put off by the strength of our group as we had a guide and 4 porters and a mix of Israelis who just finished military service and some girlfriends who were dressed with long shorts and tops. Colombia at that time had a big problem with psychopathic men and on a number of occasions we met men who had killed before. This was in the context of a very friendly polite 'have a good day' culture. From travelling in the Colombian jungle I found there was a big problem with psychopathic men and particularly around frontier towns on the edge of the routes into the wilderness. In the local papers there was signs that safe local towns had serial killers. I noticed violent movies were the norm for the men, and a certain amount of men became extremely emotional and agitated around fair haired attractive European women; in general social settings this was managed ok. In this case these beautiful girls had a very European mindset and had not had time to adjust for the real safety issues The culture gap can be fatal. The local population and the guides know what happened and cannot say anything. - I think the bones were pulverized on a farm and just a handful of bones dumped by the river with the rucksack; whoever did it had to walk miles in difficult terrain but he knew the area well so logically he could only carry a small amount and taking too many would be more evidence of chemicals and deliberate pulverizing. My theory on why some bones were affected by chemicals and others not: Once taken to the ranch, the girls may not have died at the same time and the perpetrator may have stopped using chemicals and changed the process. It’s horrible to say really. But I think the bones were all bagged and driven over or smashed with hammers or treated with chemicals. My theory of why the rucksack appeared containing the phones and dollars : The perpetrator had some job income and a place to live there; they had privacy to think and calm down. There was no overwhelming priority to sell anything as food was on their table and taking the step of selling the belongings would be the biggest step that threatened their secrecy. So it was safer to keep all the girls belongings in one tight bundle and dispose of them in one tight bundle. The stage of disposal was a calm effort, hiking miles along remote terrain known to the perpetrator to help invent an explanation that the girls fell from monkey bridges into the river and were dragged to death. All these investigations focus too much on the phone activity and the night time photos. Those were the work of the perpetrators who tricked persuaded and coerced the girls into a pitiless trap. Then the perpetrators had time to play games with the phones and camera. They deleted a key photo taken when they found the girls and started to impose themselves that photo was probably taken defensively by the girls to have their identity.."
Matteo wrote:
"We have to stumble from fact to possibility to likeliness, not to prove a crime or anything else, but to reconstruct the most probable course of things and conclude from there whether a crime is inevitably involved or not. Now some things are not facts, but can be concluded or extracted from the known material, like stepping stones in the story.
- It was not a normal thing to get lost on the first of April. The regular course of things changed ultimately at 2.15 PM when they were to reach the 2nd quebrada or the paddock with a great view. There the pictures fail, and kept on failing until the night of the 8th of April.
- They did not drown on the first of April. It was impossible to reach a river with enough water or current to drown.
- Temperatures were quite moderate in the area. The first night though they might have to sleep at some 1400 m above sea level. That may have been quite fresh. They phoned at daybreak, but did not make contact. If they went further north, downhill the second day, they would reach warmer areas.
- They must have left the path, or took a path that they thought was right. This may have happened the 1st or the 2nd of April. The path was covered twice by the guide on the 3rd and 5th as far as we know.
- The reason for them to do what they did is unknown and includes possible involvement of a third party in some way.
- They maintain a regular pattern according to the phone details. This suggests them staying at or around a shelter, hiding or in an area with some comfort.
- They had time to walk all the way to Bocas and back, or to go shopping in Boquete and return, but they did not. They must have been hindered in their mobility for some reason - again unknown.
- Rain came at first the evening of the 4th of April. Before that moment drowning is not a real option.
- At some moment they reached the 2nd cable bridge, I suppose. Because Kris' shorts were found near it. You don't lay your shorts to dry and just leave. Something happened there and it was no good.
- Until then, they never thought they would actually die.
- 90 black pictures suggest: no sleep that night, panic and/or continuous hope. To me a simple walk at night is not likely: very dangerous and inefficient regarding their resources. Two explanations are likely to me: signalling towards Sinaproc, after they gave light signals, and/or trying to see something in the river below.
- The backpack was found further downstream from the 2nd cable bridge. That area is so remote that you have to walk 5 hours after being dropped by helicopter to get there. The Pianista trail to Bocas does not go there, but takes another route. The only way to get there is through the river - where their remains were found further downstream. Going through the river is not safe, especially in the rain season. Then why doing so, when you were (probably) at the second cable bridge, close to an inhabited area. To me, one was searching the other after an accident.
- A full floating of the backpack kilometers through the river and then resting on a more or less dry place where it was found after 2 months and then being in a relatively excellent condition, not over-fungus-ed, just like the contents, is not likely. It was put there or lost just shortly before.
- To me it is most likely that one died in the river by unknown accident and the other after searching and maybe finding her friend. She probably undertook the immense task of climbing down the river through intense wilderness all the way down close to where the backpack was found - in the state she was in. It must have taken her 2 or 3 days.
- Considering the found remains Lisanne lived longer than Kris. To illustrate the effort to reach the place where the backpack was found:
There are some not unveiled causalities between these stepping stones. And some of the stones are yet too unsecured to step on. They are attached to hotspots in the area where 'something' may have happened. The places that we can pinpoint with more or less security are: the 2nd quebrada and the crossing path at the paddock; The 2nd cable bridge; an unknown place(s) where they sheltered form 2nd until 7th of April; and the river Culebra closer to the place where the backpack was found. They lay more or less in a straight line to the north. Things have most likely happened along that line. Non of this is hard evidenced truth, but all is more than just speculation. All in all much of the known facts are explainable from bad luck and unexperienced hiking, but there are some essential holes and things to be verified. - NB. Some think the authorities didn't do a good job. Indeed they never caused an essential breakthrough in the case. But they pursued all the indications they had and more. At some moment 150 men were involved in searching operations. The case has caused major impact on tourism policy and paths are now better indicated and secured. Panama is no longer the 'banana republic' some may still think it is, though there are differences with Dutch standards and possibilities. I value their work and the displayed resources to find the girls just like I value the individual efforts, like F's."
Torero replied: "I agree with you on most things, however:
- The regular attempt pattern in the end does not have to be so regular (more attempts came from the Telegraaf - I agree, not the best source, but at least one-)
- SINAPROC was far away that night of the 8th.
- I think walking through or next to the river was easiest. Climbing down for 2-3 days seem a far too long time to me. Not only to Dutch but to international standards the Panamese Prutsers (botchers) did not do a good job. Had they done, they would have taken the fingerprints of all people involved (a common practice even when changing money here!). Also no suspects or others involved were questioned. All findings have been done by the locals. It is not a banana republic, I agree. But even for Latin American standards it was very badly done. The locations of the things found now give us a clue on their path. It does not necessarily mean that where things were found, those were fixed locations. Your assumption that the place the backpack was found on June 11th may have been "their resting place", for instance. It may be. It also may be they rested further downstream, then walked upstream again and finally died where the backpack was safely stored between the rocks outside of the reach of the river. It can also be they stayed for 9 days somewhere more upstream, then walked down and stored the backpack there. In short: taking the location of the found evidence as fixed points is a big assumption. The organic remains can easily be washed downstream by the river itself by the way."
Chiatos replied: "I believe that they did not survive for so many weeks in the wild, unless they were held captive. After all those weeks in the wild, before having to remove their bras, they would have reached someone. And if that someone would have had good intentions, they would have been helped. But for some reason these poor girls ended up dead. Meaning that they did not reach someone with good intentions. According to you, they did not reach anyone at all. The huts/fincas between the 2nd and 3rd crossing belong to relatives/family of Martina who said that she saw the girls at the start of the trail (source: Baru). They live there permanently. And that is nearby where the jeans have been found, neatly zipped up and lying on a rock I believe."
lossincasa wrote in February 2020: "Why are there no clear photo's of the girls after the summit? Why the 911 call so soon into their 'trip'? (16:39 it was that's a couple of hours, just before light went out). Why not take a photo then, lets say of the surroundings? They knew they were lost but they didn't behave lost. They behaved scared, as if out of time to take pics, camp (cuz no site was found) and prob stay in the open enough for people to find them. Where did they sleep for 11 days? Why remove shorts and bras when lost and on the move? Why pack a bag and leave it behind when it has a candy in it? They were not hungry enough? They took a photo of the ravine. Why not turn around and followed back out? If they wanted to go for a swim but they got lost then going in circles is an option. A possibility. But they didn't leave stuff behind or near the trail as they did at that final spot. Nothing says the night photos (or the first time the camera was used) were taken by the girls. It is not difficult to take a photo of your friend, they knew how to do that. I always thought the photos remind me of someone looking around fast for something. Maybe for the other dead girl. Done by someone that had already found ( and photographed) twice the blond head/face we see. Or maybe the whole body. But that was a gross picture and he deleted it. Was there foul play? Impossible to say. I don't think the girls survived the whole 11 days. One of them died first probably on the first day. And the other after exhausting her battery, used or tried to use her friend's phone until day 5? Everything happened after that was done by the locals. They found their stuff first, then the backpack (probably empty) and then put everything in and returned it.PS: The guy (whose spouse 'found' the backpack) said in a recent documentary after looking at the picture of the girls crossing the small river wit the rocks, that this wasn't on their side of the divide. That was a path near the summit on the side. He may be lying but has anyone ever wondered if there was another way back? Another path? Not for the tourists but for the locals and the other good 'drug' selling Indigenous. Something tells me there is. And the girls found it."
Some opinions from other people Em wrote on June 21st 2019:
I feel very sorry for them [the parents from Kris and Lisanne] but they take a simplistic view of what the girls might have done probably because that is easiest to believe, rather than think the girls made some stupid mistakes. The timings of these walkers against the girls' trek can not be accurate since the weather conditions were totally different meaning the ground would be different to walk on too, plus the age and fitness of the walkers would affect timings. I think it's evident now from the photo taken with the visible lines on it, that they DID keep walking to the cable bridge. Why they continued over the top and went down the other side like that, I have no idea but they made that choice happily at first. Whoever had the camera may have simply stopped taking photos because they eventually realised they'd walked way too far and were not having fun anymore, worrying about turning around and getting back in the dark. It's also very easy to hurt yourself in the outdoors even without massive cliffs. Last year I fell just a metre from a river side in an area I knew well and broke my hand, ended up nearly in the river, almost passing out with shock. It's just too easy. The girls, I think, got injured at the same time and were unable to move. No rescue party sent out for what, four days? Plus the rescue party were searching in the wrong area. They may have tried to move by then and ended up well away from the path due to being disorientated from hunger and pain. It's a very haunting story. - I think there are so many questions about both the accident scenario or the victim of foul play scenario. I think for me there seems to be less questions for the accident scenario and more probability in that direction. To try and answer your points, did the guide walk all that way to where the girls might have been on that second day, or did he just partially walk the trail? Obviously the guide at this point was probably the person who most suspected the girls had gone up there, but he did not know for sure. Witness testimony is also possibly not reliable. I don't know the truth of all the information I've seen but I've seen a picture of a map where the search party supposedly looked and the area did not focus on the area where the girls may potentially have been. I think they didn't think the girls would have gone that far over and down the other side of the trail. It does seem like a horrible unlikely event that both would be injured. I think definitely even a heavy, awkward fall from a couple of metres onto a hard rock could have caused Kris's head injury and pelvis break. Lisanne must have been injured too though or she would have attempted to get help, right? I think it may have been a case of one fell and the other tried to grab them to save her and they both fell and broke bones. The scattered bone finds I can only say may have been animals removing them after death. I think once they were injured they were both immobilized, unable to walk. I don't think they could have been held captive or anything. Nobody would have left them with their phones. Judging from how the phones were used the girls were always together. They also, or at least Lisanne, appeared to be able to use their arms normally to take photos, use the phones, create the paper signs. (I've seen it suggested that in one picture where Kris is leaning out of a cave area it looks like her arms may be tied behind.) The only thing I can think of as to why they didn't record themselves or anything is that when you are injured you go into a kind of shock. This would have impaired their ability to think rationally. I think their excitement and adventurous spirits may have just impelled them to keep walking but they went out terribly unprepared for the conditions. They barely had any fresh water and no food, as far as I can tell. Their clothes were inappropriate and they misjudged or had no idea about the light conditions in the area. The phones weren't well charged and they were probably not aware that there might have been no signal. This suggests to me that they probably wouldn't have great survival instincts and may not have thought to eat worms or insects or anything to stay alive. I think that in the second week of searching their bodies must have been totally water submerged in the river for them not to be found by tracker dogs or search parties. As for the electronics and the backpack being found, I think it could have floated and ended up on a shore. I had the exact same model camera as they had and I left it in a pocket and put it through my washing machine and it still worked perfectly afterwards so I know that the camera alone could have withstood being in water. It's a very haunting case and I only just read on your page about some of the other elements which are curious. I do not think they got lost or were attacked though, I think they got injured on the trail by the bridge and the Sinaproc search was not efficient enough. The parents seem to have a difficult time believing that the girls would have gone off trail as they say that would have been stupid but sadly the girls had already started out doing naive things like ditching the guide, not dressing appropriately, not taking enough water or any food and continuing to walk over the other side of the trail when they should have known they wouldn't have any light to make it back."
I replied: "Hi Em thanks for your thoughts. Some of the questions that remain open in the Accident scenario are in my opinion crucial issues. If they did fall off a cliff then it doesn't explain how their belongings and few bones could have been found so spread out, so many kilometers up north and apart from one another. Animals also would not drag entire or half bodies around through the jungle for so many kilometers, scattering these remains (there were at least 14 kilometers between the found jeans shorts and the bone remains). The thing is, if they truly had an accident and were immobilized, which seems very realistic considering the completely broken in half pelvic bone, then you can't walk or move with that. And why haven't investigators found back their bodily remains near the site of the accident then? They were not. In fact, mostly all of the skeletons including the skulls, arms, ribs and so on where never found. So there is no cause of death known. That does not correspond with a fall or accident in a specific place where they could not move on from. And if alive, they would have been able to make a video message or photos with their digital camera, which they also didn't; also doesn't match with an accident scenario... It won't be the first time that a 3rd party handles the phone of the victim(s) themselves, in a place where they know not to have cell phone connection, simply to set up a fake trail. 'See? The girls were still alive then and trying to get help'. The area around the bridge was searched unofficially though. The local tour guides went there as early as day 3 to 5. They did go down the entire Pianista path. And after 2 weeks the army and Sinaproc also made it to the river, according to a Dutch ex detective who was involved in the case. If they had perished there, their bodies should have been found, and they weren't there.. Also 2 tourists who made a blog about the trip knew of their disappearance and passed by these places along the river and looked out for them. Not even near the monkey bridge where later that peculiar SOS photo seems to have been taken was anything visible or present and that was late May 2014. Panama likes to insinuate now that for some reason that specific place near the river wasn't searched but it is not true. That entire area was combed through and the sinaproc leader also declared so in the press. There was running water also there; several streams which they passed (they had a water bottle in their backpack), the rivers with streaming water and it rained at least twice that first week.. Food is also available in a jungle. From plants to worms in the ground to small creatures in the water to fruit.. Healthy young people do not usually die from starvation alone within 10 days. Only enough water is vital in such a time period. I agree that they were badly prepared, lightly dressed, didn't bring reserve batteries for their phones, no compass, no extra clothes and not even a safety knife.. The river that week was low and calm as it was still the dry season and the rain season hadn't started yet. It was sunny clear water and warm and the trail was not muddy but dry also. If they had ended up in the river, with its slow current, according to specialists the bodies would have been found in one piece in that river. Dead bodies flow to the surface, they don't stay below (due to gasses etc). Even bodies that were in a river for over a year have been found in one piece in rivers, it makes little sense that within 10 weeks theirs fell completely apart, including the foot and the pelvic bone and everything else, in such a calm cool river... OK thanks! That's interesting, that your canon camera survived an entire washing cycle in the machine. The backpack was the thing that causes the issue; it was not waterproof, it was made of cheap lycra material, and it would have gotten wet even if it had been gentle carried by a river..There were also dollar bills in the backpack and a passport and the bras and everything was dry. That makes it more likely that this backpack was planted, instead of truly ending up in the river. But its no solid evidence no. I understand that there is something to say for all scenario's. And thats its a personal matter in the end which theory seems more convincing :)
Let ́sTalkAboutIt wrote on June 21st 2019: "Being in the depth of the jungle and watching night creeping towards you - every human being untrained for that situation would try to avoid still being stuck once the darkness approaches, yet they only called for help one time on each phone on that day, already out of hope for reception and being rescued fast?That would never happen so fast, they would have tried to get out fast, especially during the first day, anybody would."
P wrote: "The foot was not shattered, merely detached, as will occur after decomposition. Also, there is no proof that she was dead on the 8th day. Many people in Boquete still believe this was foul play, and it can't be ruled out. Il Pianista trail is well worn, and most of us that know the area find it very difficult to believe or understand why they would have set out on this trail so late, nor why they would have gone off trail and crossed past the Mirador/lookout at the top of the trail. Tons of more details that make this suspicious. The bag wasn't brought in for months after their disappearance, and only after Senaproc and other people had been questioning and combing through the Nobe Bugle tribe and area. They were 100% tired of the attention. If we were to speculate, there are several reasons they finally brought it in. Nothing was damaged, and the pack and its contents were in VERY surprisingly good shape. Even fairly clean. During rainy season (which actually started after they disappeared) is very messy and muddy up there on this trail.
Profd replied: "Many persons believe stories like this always involve foul play or aliens or monsters, because they're not interested in the truth, they're interested in entertainment. It's much more likely that Kris was dead by the 8th, than she wasn't. Look at the phone records: after only a few days, calls stopped being made on her phone, and somebody started trying to access it with wrong pin numbers. Also, there's a picture among the "night photos" that certainly looks like Kris with blood in her hair. They didn't set out so late: they were at the mirador at 1 PM, which would have left them several hours to get down the mountain. To my knowledge, the trail they took down the mountain is also the El Pianista trail, and so they never left the trail. The girls had no guide, and there's not much written about El Pianista in English on the Internet even now; there was probably much less five years ago. Everybody on YouTube says, "of course, you turn around at the top of the mountain, and come back down the way you went up." Why "of course"? Why is this so obvious? I believe the girls thought they were supposed to go up one side of the mountain and come down the other, and after several hours of descent they realized they had made mistake: they realized that whether they continued the way they were going or turned around and went back up the mountain, they weren't going to get out of the jungle before dark, and I think it was at this time they panicked and made their first emergency phone calls. They may not even have been lost at this point. But travelling desperately in twilight and then darkness they either got lost or suffered an accident.
P replied: "profd, I understand your theory, and it's a possibility, just as mine is. Comparing it to aliens and monsters is a stretch though. I can tell you've studied this and read what you could. I'm sorry you were not part of the original volunteer search party that is never mentioned. Also sorry that you don't live here and haven't spoken with literally everyone (and a hundred more people) mentioned in the material you've read. If you had, maybe you'd have truly solved this mystery. We have somewhat archaic slander/liable laws here, which has prevented many people, such as myself, from mentioning other aspects of this case - and moreso other suspect (s)... which is also why you never hear these journalists mention the name of the "part-time guide". Let me know if you're ever actually on the ground, in the area, and then we can talk.
@H. H you actually know the names of some of the unnamed suspects. I will tell you that many aspects and even suspects of this case aren't named publicly simply because we have laws against unsubstantiated accusations and rumors here. They're pretty archaic, which is literally why these names aren't coming up unless you are here or have spoken to people down here. I will say that there are two real suspects, one of which you mentioned (who is also known to have a sort of mental disability, and knows that area VERY well). The other personally said some shady things to myself and others at a bar after this occurred, which was very suspicious. He had the means and the motive, and literally lives very near to the pianista Trail. We passed along the information we could, but it appears most negative scenarios were intentionally ignored, for obvious reasons (bad for tourism). I'm not saying it wasn't accidental, but with all of the facts in the case, it's impossible to ignore the possibility that they were being manipulated and controlled by someone else after they initially reached the top. One man had offered them a stay at his cabin nearby. Heresy is that they declined, but he knew they were considering hiking the Pianista that next day. One thing someone else pointed out that seems interesting... Phones can dial 911 and use the camera without entering the PIN to the phone."
I replied to P: "Thank you so much for this information. Yes I understand and I get why professional journalists wouldn't want to burn their fingers onto this; naming suspects without being certain that they were guilty. Its easy to get a slander case on your plate. But it just seems so unfair that Betzaida Pitti pretty much buried this case with her unfounded conclusion. She didn't prove at all that these girls died from a fall in a ravine, or in the river, or from an animal attack.. I would love to know who this other person was who said shady stuff in the bar. But I get the picture. Do you think this case will ever be solved? I feel that without the full bodies, without a cause of death possible now and without a location of death, it will never be solved. Unless a witness comes forward perhaps with new evidence? It may always remain a mystery."
My friend said about this: "What also plays a role is that we - people who follow this disappearance case from afar, that is from another continent from where it happened - suffer from tunnel vision ... We only see those who looked for the cameras such as tour guides P. and F., Laureano, the old Miranda.. There are a lot of guides in Boquete and surroundings who also do it part time. Laureano also has cattle, just like F.. I don't think that P. does anything next to it but there are so many, it's also not like we have any insight into their guide schemes or merits." - It is indeed true that we zoom in on those well-known guides from a distance, but that an involved guilty guide can just sit back there and keep his name completely out of the media. Then we zoom in on the wrong 'suspects'. There really is no way to make even a start of solving this case unless you are in panama, near Boquete and know where you are really talking about..
Senshi A. wrote: "No dog, one trail, no cliffs, plenty of beautiful photos could have been taken. It would be interesting to know at which hour the dog came back and retrace his steps. There's no big animals that could have make them go out of their way. There's no reason as to why it took 7-8 days to finally take photos in complete dark. The only time it rained was when the dark photos were taken. The night visibility was at the highest since the beginning. No blood on the clothes that were found. The emergency marker was found. All the night photos would have been taken in the surrounding area."
I replied: "Yeh the info about the dog coming back was vague; late in the day. Which could be the late afternoon or the early evening. I doubt it was close or after midnight, as the owners would have probably specify that? But yeh that little dog detail in itself throws up some questions. Why was it not documented in any photo? How late exactly did the dog return and in what state? Was it calm and casual as normal, or agitated? Was it clean and dry or muddy and wet when it came home? And indeed regarding Kris and Lisanne, we nowadays know a lot about the things that could not have happened to them.. Wild animals would have left marks of an attack on their clothes, shoes, backpack and bones. There were none, so I exclude that option. There were no deep ravines anywhere near where their bones were found, and nothing indicates on their backpack, shoes and bones that they slid down a wall of rock of any sort. Leaves open the river, but their backpack and its content would have had water damage then, and their few bones wouldn't have been found behind and under tree roots and so far away from the river then. Their bones would have had small microscopic budges also from knocking into river rocks, normally. None of that either. So drowning is not fully excluded, but its also not obvious in any scientific way, as far as we know now, that they drowned. Then the lack of photos after day 1 (aside from those manic odd night photos on day 8). No messages, no drafts. not a single attempt to picture their ordeal, or where they got 'lost', no attempts to call their parents or host family. Just silence and anonymous emergency call attempts that made no sense in their pattern. I think the best explanation for all of this is that they were held by a 3rd party who controlled the phones and camera, who killed them and dumped a few non discriminating bones and the backpack once they found out 10 weeks in that the Dutch families were not going to back down and would keep combing through that jungle until they found something.
These are also some good comments below this video here:
These are also some good comments below this video here:
Joao Andre wrote in April 2019: "Juan, you certainly present a compelling case. However, you leave us with a hard to swallow assumption, which is particularly hard to believe: we're to accept that the killer/killers chose to manipulate informatized images through Photoshop, when he/they could have simply disposed of the camera and easily made sure it would never be found. It simply doesn't make any sense. If he/they was smart enough and had the resources to do that, he would also be smart enough to know it would leave a trace. Burying the camera somewhere in the jungle, however, was a certain way of getting rid of it without leaving a trace. It's like you're making these people much smarter and resourceful than the average person is, only to convince us that they acted in a dumber way than the average person would."
Juan replied: "Thank you very much, Joao Andre! An excellent point you make. But not burying the camera, might actually have been a smart move. Without it, the parents would have never left Panama. There would have been ongoing pressure, and attention, search parties, and more. Yet very quickly after the camera was found, the families disappeared. Made peace. Suddenly there was a story to be told, a scenario. Some remains were found, the backpack.. mysterious night pictures... it did the hypothetical murderer, a lot of good, in my humble opinion. Now there was a cloud of confusion, but also solace. No more wild speculations, or search expeditions.. I am also just speculating and reacting to the evidence. I observed a widespread manipulation with the EXIF data, which should have been immaculate. And I try to come up with a possible explanation, also because I see, IMG_0499 looks photoshopped. It's suspicious, with the larger right breast, the very broad blocked right wrist, and an unusual puffy face. Plus, a black line next to her left shoulder, as if the surroundings weren't erased with great finesse..I just observed that, and could only link it to the alleged murderer.. So it's merely a reaction. It's no watertight solid case, but a weighed analysis... and yes, I stated they are no criminal masterminds. And they got away with an amateur like tampering with the photos.. In my opinion, that is consistent. They didn't do a perfect job and they didn't need to, because they got away with it. The Dutch Forensics Institute didn't raise any questions. Yet I very much acknowledge, the majority of people perhaps would feel getting rid of the camera and all traces of evidence would make more sense. Yet in the case of a narcissist murderer, who likes to showcase his arrogance, or smartness.. then the construction of a definitive scenario, becomes very appealing.. "look, I committed the "perfect crime" and didn't need to do a perfect job even.. I got away with it". It's about cause and effect. I expected the photo data to be pristine. They weren't, they were pretty awful. So my reaction was: whose hands were all over these photos then? They could have changed and deleted anything they liked... with the disclaimer: don't expect them to be criminal masterminds. I just would like a reaction from the investigators, why they gave a green light and didn't contest the state of the photos."
Joao Andre replied: "Thank you very much for your response, Juan! Thank you also for allowing me to comment on your hypothesis critically. Although being fundamental to any thought process, many people are highly defensive regarding their own theories, so, thank you for being a good sport on that regard. Again, and respectfully, I would disagree with your analysis. I believe most will agree that the decisive factor to the parents were their remains being found, not the camera. The only thing the camera did was to add further speculation. It was never a case of "oh, see, these photos clearly show that they got lost and had an accident". No. It only added further to the mystery of understanding what exactly happened to them. Juan, I have no expertise with camera information, and that was exactly why I watched your vídeo. I was trying to figure out if there's scientific evidence that the photos were doctored, or not. It seems like, according to your expertise, someone accessed the photo information after the girls got lost (most likely what your seeing is the result of the forensics police actions retrieving the info?) but you're not 100% sure the photos were photoshopped. I'll take your word on that, as common sense won't quite cut it against technical knowledge. Regarding the narcissist view. Boquete is a very, very small town. There are no anonymous people there. Everybody knows everybody. To believe this extreme psycho narcissist killer was able to do this, apparently only once in his life; be that calculate, manipulative, sadistic, arrogant and confident, while going uncovered in a small village his whole life. Juan, yes, it is mathematically possible, but that is far-fetched beyond belief. There are much, much more simple ways of explaining what happened. Juan, look carefully at the picture of the monkey ropes. Have you seen how high those really are? This perspective made it all too clear for me. Until now, it seemed like they were almost above water. They're not. It's a very high fall to a bunch of boulders and strong rapids. Imagine the girls walking for days then having to cross that. They probably tried out of despair, after having waited for help there and Kris eventually got injured. I wonder if they were "camping" by the monkey ropes at night, heard noise from the Alto Romero side, tried to cross to find its origin and help and the accident happened. - Who knows. I honestly think one very likely scenario is they got lost somehow, tried to follow the river for days, were camped at night, both had strong diarrhea at this point, Kris walked a bit off to relieve herself and end up falling by accident or because she passed out. Lisanne then spend hours locating her during the night and tried the best she can to mark the spot. She was most likely dead by the time Lisanne found her. Lisanne then made a desperate attempt at completing the rest of the track and, unfortunately, she fell on the second bungee rope. She survived the fall but was injured beyond the point she could survive there on her own. She tried one last time to get help by phone. Indigenous do roam the area. It's not impossible to believe they found the backpack and left it in a place they knew it would be found, whether they knew the background story to it or not. I definitely agree Police did a very poor job at investigating the case but one should be very wary not to destroy a man's life just because two girls lost theirs. One does not accuse another person of such vile act without being 100% sure of it. Best regards from Portugal! Funny enough, my next door neighbours are a family of six from the Netherlands."
Juan replied: "You are very welcome! Indeed, especially in this case, the tone of the debate between the "ACCIDENT/ LOST" or "CRIME" camp can be intense, hostile, and inflammatory. To recap, my position is this: if only Kris and Lisanne touched the camera, then it was to be expected, each picture they took would contain a similar set of EXIF DATA fields, like my version of exactly the same camera would. Or any other model on FLICKR. Complicating factor is, I only have access to the resized copies of the photos, which were leaked to the Panamese press around August 30th of 2014. But it's my weighed analysis, these copies contain the same EXIF DATA like the originals. Of course I cannot prove it, still. But resizing normally doesn't do ANYTHING to the data.. or, maybe one field of 230 changes. Yet I found out, these EXIF DATA are in key areas different than a virgin set. Key sections are missing, and others are added, cause of interference by a computer, or even Photoshop software. And no, even if you would resize these pictures in Windows Software, then they wouldn't be so polluted, at all. So it is not just a case of, Betzaida Pitty's office in Panama opening the set, and then some little things change.. it's really grave... yet ok, I cannot reach final conclusions, not having studied the originals. But to repeat myself again: what you'd expect is, no one had touched or accessed the photos, but Kris and Lisanne. If some careless person in Panama downloaded the whole memory card to the PC, not locking it... then we wouldn't see the severe damage done, which shows signs of heavy doctoring.. and in the case the pollution in the copies ONLY occurred because of resizing the photos, then again... no whole sections would have gone missing, which are crucial, and no so called "makernotes" and XMP section would be added... and those editing dates are June 17th 2014, from 16:57 on... three days before the backpack with 37 different fingerprints on it was shipped to the Netherlands.. And it's my suspicion, the Dutch Forensics Institute just let everything be then... while for me it is the biggest red flag, because if the EXIF DATA aren't immaculate, then how trustworthy are the images, or the whole time table.. who was behind the manipulation then? That is a key question... and if I were the families, and would know about it (which I doubt, they only rely on what is being told), then to me that would be totally unacceptable, and I'd demand a thorough investigation. The camera should have been the only reliable witness. Everything else, is speculation, no camp can claim anything for sure. So I have no reason to argue with your scenario, which could have happened. It's just, there is only one path.. so in case they died of starvation, desorientation, without any third party involved.. then you totally rely on the girls being stressed all the time and not able to function due to shock.. cause otherwise, you'd insult their intelligence.. getting lost on the one path, even knowing they descended the mountain to reach the two quebradas 50 minutes past the top. So they knew, the only way was up again..
Yes the monkey bridges are hazardous, but they are also like, seven hours walking past the summit.. while way before, there are all these green meadows, which look friendly to stay... which indicate farm land, and farm houses, you could start looking for... if you didn't want to climb your way up again.. and if they were physically unable, well... yeah, too many variables, you just don't know what happened.. the fast current of these rivers and the fact they originate high up the mountain, makes them safe to drink.. even if the temperature or difference still can cause diarrhea.. And even when in shock, at some point the amygdala, the reptile brain, takes over.. and it isn't a giant area, you can mark everything with piles of stones, or carving trees.. anything to signal, you have been there...some Dutch forensics guy concluded, without evidence, they must have gotten stuck in some sort of natural prison near the summit, slid down.. and then they were unable to get out... but then again, for bodies to become bones so quickly, without bite marks... Japanese soldiers were still found with their uniform on 30 years after the war, skeleton complete.. in the jungle of Birma, or the Solomon islands etc. But once more, a matter of, anything goes really.. It's true, I shouldn't make anyone look suspicious, or accuse anyone... even if that person raised a lot of people's eyebrows with his actions. Very nice a Dutch family of six is your neighbour.. seems like a lot of Dutch people have their home in Portugal, some real estate people specialize in them, with some famous people preceding them."
Interestingly, in this Panamanian news channel link, it is confirmed that TVN-2 had access to the memory card of the digital camera from Kris and Lisanne on June 17th 2014. And could see them all. This date coincides with the date that was later found by Juan to be written as an EXIF date on some of the photos taken from the camera. Showing once more than these photos were seen and most likely altered and worked with before they made it to the Dutch forensics institute (NFI), which was given the promise by Panama that they would have the first look into these photo files.
Tice sine replied: "Your right it doesn't make sense and that's because your right there isn't anything to prove it was photoshopped."
Gregg mcgregg wrote: "Question Juan. You've analysed these pics extensively. In one or 2 of the dark pics it seems to be raining hard. But the rocks seem dry and no apparent puddles later. Are they date wise in sync? I do think there was foul play. I find it highly suspect the guide rummaged through their room. Especially before their fate was known. How would he know they would be missing for days after only missing one night? Very fishy.
Juan replied: "Great Question Gregg... I only have a downsized copy of IMG 542, of the giant bedrock, in the night.. and IMG 550, the one with the orange plastic and the twigs.. The other night pictures were first shown by Martijn Froon in a Dutch talkshow called PAUW... on screens in the background, you saw them.. But I never saw the original pictures, nor do I have EXIF data.. so, your guess is as good as mine. Where these drops that caught flash rain, or just humidity, or something else in the forest? It was a dry period indeed until April 8th, and the level of the rivers was low.. drowning seems impossible.. but yeah great observation, I cannot confirm the sync or series of those night pictures as shown by Martijn Froon. [..] They even sold images of the room, as a video, to TV2N.. they ran a very early segment on their news show, containing images of the room."
July 31st 2019 - B. wrote me several comments on this topic, which I found very interesting to read:
"Thanks S. for your blog entry (I'm still in the middle of it... it's a long read! :) ) , the time and dedication you put in this case is mind-blowing; I feel like you and others, such as Juan, did so much for these girls who have been totally let down by the disgraceful Panamanian authorities (Pitti and all her cronies) in their attempt to "make heat go away", so to speak. I wonder if the school and the guides had some sort of shady business going on, in which they delayed planned work for tourists to raise tourism profits and the guides'... could explain why Eileen asked for a transfer to Panama City as soon as something "happened", after all the guide and her, first spent some time together in the girls' room going over their belongings and then at his ranch in Alto Romero... to me that sounds like manipulating the evidence already knowing that a crime occurred... also could explain why the supposed footage of the girls on April 1st got "overwritten"."
Me: "Thank you so much B. Yeh it has been taking some time to document these things and to put subtitles under the videos, and Juan has put a lot of time in it too, indeed. But it's like going into a dark tunnel, you want to work through it all and hopefully find some truth or light on the other side. I came to my own conclusion about what I think has happened to them, but there is something to say for other theories too. None of the theories are fitting and they all have remaining questions, unfortunately. And Betzaida Pitti and her crew never gave any proof with their own verdict. So unfortunately it's a big mystery case still. Yeh I also feel they have been let down severely and may have even been saved perhaps if authorities had done things differently. It's shocking to read all the basic investigation stuff that was not done correctly, also that the Dutch authorities stood, watched, and let it happen like this :( Yes well I read lately indeed that this was not the first time in Boquete that young foreign students were promised volunteer work in one of those schools and then all had their appointments cancelled or delayed on the spot. So who knows... they may have fallen in that same trap, because they documented all their email contact with the local school and there seemed to be no doubt or uncertainty about the exact date and time they were promised a place there. The police by my knowing also never released the reason why exactly that school sent them away on Monday morning. Eileen seemed afraid of something. But what exactly? I suppose she does not want to drag that thing back up again and she stays silent now."
B. replied: "Wow! Thank you for your ample reply and insight. Yes, it is indeed a never-ending tunnel; thinking that they might have been saved, had proper investigation taken place it's so infuriating ( I keep thinking about the girls' families, especially Hans; he fought like a lion to get the truth out, but they had no chance to begin with against the authorities' ostracism, and over time he deluded himself into believing the accident theory). I understand, it's impossible to be in that "limbo place" for that long: not knowing, but having to mourn and go on... it's just so sad. I went over the other theories as well, and none of them make any sense (considering all the little bits and pieces) aside from a crime scenario. I believe after the summit two things could have happened: They were made to walk onward by a group of people: I'm pretty sure it was a group; some time ago I listened to this other case of two women attacked at knife-point on a trail near a camping site: https://k2radio.com/report-to-wyoming-woman-tells-her-story-of-survival/ Also, this other case goes to show all these people who initially laughed at a possible aggression (like some people I read on the forums and such), that you can get attacked pretty much anywhere, more so on the Pianista where being armed seems the norm. Had it been a single man, I think Kris and Lisanne at some point would have acted like these two other girls.. nah obviously a group. Also from what I know the Pianista is usually run by big groups, they don't go alone, even the guides go in large numbers. Perhaps they were lured there by mentioning the little waterfall. At that point, I think if they had been approached by a group, at first friendly, they had no choice but to go on, I mean they would have definitely understood their intentions but had to play along to not startle them, after all they surely had machetes and the like with them (a strong proof that they didn't get there on their own free will is the fact that no photos were taken). Could have been the local gang (also the two men in the taxi are not to be ruled out); judging by his sexually aggressive attitude and mindset as shown in his Facebook profile, and the guide being all over the case, it would make sense. Also photo 505, 507 and 508 surely don't look like Lisanne's style of taking pictures (photo 491 is pretty strange too). Kris' muddy calf and shorts on 508 signal us that she already previously fell for whatever reason... was the terrain on that sunny day that slippery or is it a sign of a scuffle? At that point they were abducted, abused and later on disposed of. Night photos and emergency calls made to look like they were in distress, and after some time clues planted to make it look like they were victims of a natural accident to make the case cool down (weeks of searches and no results, and at the most convenient time, first the backpack pops up and then the bones and remains... yeah, right). On a side note, there's a strong proof that would totally debunk the accident theory in my opinion, and that is Adelina Coriat's report, I'm not sure of the dates here (can't find the original article from where I read it), but she reported that she found the presence of larvae on Lisanne's foot remains, and had she died early on in April like we are to believe, they wouldn't be there. That to me shows at least that unnatural preservation of the limb took place until the point when it's been planted near that tree. One or both got injured, stayed put on the trail or at the meadows following the little river in 507 and 508 and got found by malicious people: more or less what happened to that German tourist, but unfortunately not lucky enough to have made it out alive. Then the rest of the story is the same as the previous point in my post. It is indeed odd that he didn't let her go back to work; why would she go that far alone with a supposed stranger, being a girl and knowing his ambiguous attitude towards women (because I'm sure she had heard of him), unless of course they knew each other. Yes, it stinks indeed."
Me: "Wow B., what a great post. I completely agree with you, and you touched on some good points, especially how it is unlikely that they were overpowered by one man only, if a crime in fact took place. Compared to the locals, these Dutch girls were very tall and athletic too. I think you may be right, that they may have been first approached semi-friendly (if we're going by the crime theory for a bit), making it clear to them that they had to comply and walk along. Lisanne seemed naturally cautious and conservative, she may have felt it was bad news early on, and perhaps secretly called 911 initially. Then they must have been overpowered at some point. It also seems to me the only reasonable explanation for the absolute lack of photos after the point of photo 508. And for the deleting of photo 509. Also, Kris' facial expression seems different in the photos taken after the summit. And like you so well said, the photo compositions start to look a bit different too then. I kind of let go of my suspicion of the guide as perpetrator some time ago. What probably should have been done in the early stages of the investigation, is keep all options open, not just the They Got Lost theory. Wooden sheds in the entire area should have been looked through, DNA and blood spatter tests should have been done everywhere they may have been hidden temporary, the houses of some people of interest should have been searched too. But all attention was primarily focused on a rescue missing for tourists who lost their way. And then other evidence was either destroyed or ignored; no proper finger print analysis, identification and collecting from everyone involved in the search and beyond. - Yes Hans Kremers fought like a lion indeed and for a very long time he opposed the Accident theory vehemently. He was convinced that they ran into foul play. But he was silenced by the Panamanian authorities at some point, who forbid him to talk about the information on the photo card and mobile phones (at risk of what...? Them stopping the ongoing investigation at that point?) Something must have made him stay hush in interviews, even though it's clear he wanted nothing more than to share that information, but Hans made it clear in interviews then and later that he had sworn silence at that point, more or less against his will. I think so too; after years and years of striding for his daughter and her friend, he and his partner now more or less closed that chapter and they must have been too drained by it all, too consumed perhaps. But still in their latest interview with the Dutch media in April 2019, you clearly taste in his words that he still does not believe that they simply got lost, and he still feels that the families have been given a disservice. Yes, his daughter was never going to come back and maybe they had to close the chapter and the fighting in order to be able to move on with everyday life. Yes, that Adelita Coriat was a gem in all this, she wrote so many critical good articles on the case (as did Jeremy Kryt btw, much later and from the USA). Adelita Coriat talked to important people in the whole forensics and autopsy side of things, and also discovered that Betzaida Pitti also deliberately skipped the important analysis of fluid, cell or other traces on the found remains from the girls. Then on October 20th 2014 (!), so many months after the findings of the few bones of the girls, the coroner investigated a piece of elongated skin found. Coriat reports on this too. Like you said; considering that it was by then 5 months since the girls likely time of death, there should not have been any larvae on the piece of skin anymore. Yet there were. That skin and most likely the body it belonged to, must therefore have been buried or kept or remained in a moist space, under shade, at low temperatures. The bones found had a dry inside (the bone marrow) which also does not correspond to many months of normal decomposition. According to the anthropologist, "the shape taken by the skin tissue does not seem to be part of the natural process of decomposition. The rounded shapes on it, he says, could have been acquired by staying in a bag, hidden deposit or in a kind of container. The piece of skin seems to have been manipulated, he says. 'It seems that it had been stored in a clogged environment." Buried in the earth, the decomposition of soft tissues would have been faster. http://laestrella.com.pa/panama/nacional/evidencia-pudo-manipulada-segun-forense/23814546 I think it may be possible that these bodies had been stacked away somewhere by someone, not been left out in the open and accessible to the elements, as would have been the case with an Accident or if they had gotten lost."
B. replied: "Thanks S. for your great reply! I totally agree; Lisanne could have dialed the emergency number in secrecy, and after a short time Kris as well. That would totally line up with the dynamics of the phone logs of the first day and explain why there was only one call from each phone ( the "they got lost" theory in this matter is just ludicrous; saying they were rationing phone battery life like they were lost in some deserted island in the ocean is so stupid that I don't know how it can be taken for granted. If they were seriously lost at that point, they would have tried to call multiple times, knowing they had to spend the night in the forest, signal or not). I feel the same way about F., he seems involved in some way, but not as a main perpetrator. The only motive he might have had to be so involved in the first place is of course to cover up for some people close to him: I mean, what guide absolutely wants in your room after you miss your appointment and then basically searches your room? This fact alone, had a proper investigation team been involved, would have had him questioned as a main suspect in a blink, more than likely quickly solved the case and possibly even saved the girls' life, but of course this was not the case here. Like this woman talking with Okke Ornstein in the radio broadcast here explains about how police in Boquete operate (do they really wait it out and hope that witnesses come forward in an investigation? That's so unbelievable it's shocking). After this you understand how very unlucky Kris and Lisanne have been to disappear in a similar place: the incompetent, possibly already corrupt police plus Pitti's team (who also got appointed in the place by dissident and nosy journalist silencer expert Belfon). I had just read about that Osman. Could be that he indeed felt remorseful about what they had done to the girls and was thinking of revealing the truth, but it is only speculation, just like, sadly, pretty much anything in this case. Surely all these strange deaths (taxi driver as well) seemed to happen at the worst time possible. That should have been the optimal way of conducting the investigation; like this Dutch investigator says you start with the worst possible scenario so you can act quickly and possibly save the victims' life, something you cannot do if you start small and eventually expand your options when it's already too late. I kind of wish he had power to do something at the time. Yes, I remember watching an early interview with Hans and him stopping on the verge of saying something stating that he had to stop or he would break an agreement he had made... just sad. Yes, Adelita was brilliant in this. Oh, it was October then! I was thinking September... even worse! It is obvious Pitti was obstaculating the forensic investigation fearing some crystal clear evidence would come out... also I think this is the main reason they won't release the full autopsy reports: obviously it would reveal something that would make the Dutch question the main scenario and possibly pressure the Panamanians to re-open the case, which they want to be closed and solved."
Me: "Absolutely. These things are said with the knowledge of today! Now that people know that they ended up 11 days or more in that jungle - or so it seems at first glance. Now they reason back and say: well considering these phones had to last them well over a week, of course they were saving the battery. But that was not yet known to Kris and Lisanne yet on the afternoon of April 1st. Their reality was right there and then, and it meant they had to get help asap, at every price. To have 14 (!) hours between their second call at 16:51 on day 1, and their 3rd call attempt at 06:58 on day 3, and then another 19,5 hours (!) between their last attempt of day 2, and their first call at day 3, is just unexplainable from the point of view of someone free to use their phone and stuck in a frightening jungle. To me it makes more sense if they were held by people with bad intentions and were withheld from calling, or if they weren't operating those phones themselves at all. Craziest detail of them all is how nobody tried to call a second time after a short (1 to 2 second) connection with 112 was made on day 2 at 06:58 with Lisanne's Samsung phone. Yet after the connection was broken off again, the phone was switched off after approximately 36 seconds! They then wait over an hour to try to call 112 again, this time with Kris' iPhone. Who does that after the supposed elation of hearing a connection? "Yeah hey, listen, there is still some battery life left and we just got a short connection, but listen, lets just switch the phone off altogether ok? Lets just keep going and then once we are far and wide from this specific location, we'll just try again with your phone Kris, an hours later." No no no, that makes no sense. They were frantic to get a connection, all logicality says you stay on the same spot then and try calling with both phones. No, it's not normal all this. It seems more like the person who made the connection was hell bend on avoiding a second try at that moment in time. And why could that be? - Yes, the Accident defenders say; they were dragged by the river and then, their bodies magically separate and jumped from the water far into the mainland in 4 different places and many kilometers apart. Right. Her ilium must have detached from her pelvis by natural forces and then flew onto land all by itself.. (no bite marks on it, no microscopic claw marks, nothing, so animals did not drag it anywhere or we would have seen the microscopic evidence of it).
Yeh what these locals say about the Boquete (and Panamanian) police being hardly capable of writing out more than a speeding ticket, and then bribing those involved a bit, that seems a recurrent thing also in comment sections and message boards from that region there. But if there was in fact a cover up taking place (and its an assumption now, not a fact) then there must have been someone higher up the hierarchy there who gave these top orders to suss the whole thing out; skip most of the basic forensic work on the scene, skip the vital witness and suspect interrogations and pushing this case against all logic to an Accident. I mean, they never even specified how they then accidentally died; it may have been a fall (no proof of anything, no location selected for this supposed fall, no explanation how their bodies weren't found on said location then), or a wild animal (no logical additional information on this either, and local wildlife experts say that jaguars and puma's do not live there and have not been seen there for decades, and that a dangerous snake would kill one, not 2 women, and that no other animals would eat the carcass as it is poisoned, so where is that full body now? Yeh, no comment). Or drowned in the river. No explanation how a cheap lycra backpack manages to float around a 'dangerous river' (which was at its lowest point by then due to ongoing good weather and drought) and comes out all dry and clean, with dry content, yet that same river is supposed to have swallowed these two athletic good swimmers? So, conclusive claims that have not been supported by any logic or evidence. If river rocks had broken those bodies up, the bones would have shown microscopic indentations of the impact of these river rocks, and there was nothing on any of the bones. - Yes all the other deaths and the innuendo about these local youths is just a hunch thing too, it was never thoroughly investigated, or if it was it was covered up, so from over here we cannot do anymore more than to point out the madness in this case and the suspicions that arise. So true, that real autopsy is kept a secret, but whatever Adelita and Jeremy Kryt have managed to unearth and make people involved leak, is according to many pointing to one thing only (hence why Kryt himself made a u-turn halfway in reporting on this case, from Accident to Crime). Right now I just cannot believe that Kris' brown show turned up all bleached to blue. Yet Betzaida did not want to further investigate it. It looks on first glance like not just Kris' bones were bleached with a chemical, but also her shoe. But the officials over there are not interested, eye roll. At this point amateur investigators would have done a better job in this case than those corrupt criminals who were in charge."
B. replied: "Exactly! People treat it like they were expert survivalists trying to survive in a hostile environment for as much time as possible; like you so well said, in a hypothetical distress situation, they had to get out asap, so they would have gone all out and use all their resources at once to maximize the possibilities of survival, and that doesn't line up with the phone log history nor the photos abrupt stop after picture 508 (or any photo/video/text documentation of what was happening). One could say: "hey, they couldn't call because they fell from a cliff, were incapacitated (like that famous ravine myth) and got stuck in a place with no connection!". But that doesn't line up with the body parts found/minuscule amount of them and clothes and backpack all over the place. Had that been the case, searches teams would have found their whole bodies with clothes and backpacks on them early on. Yes, the 2 seconds connection and the following phone's activities is unbelievable from the point of view of someone who's been desperate to make a contact. Everything seems to point to someone operating the phone and being surprised that the call got through unexpectedly and quickly dropped the call or moved to lose signal; could also point to that trick to bypass the iPhone's password (even though the brief connection was made from Lisanne's Samsung, it could explain some call attempts and the strange screenshot from Kris' iPhone, I believe on day 2 (?): I've read of people at the time trying that and in the process getting unwanted calls through the emergency service). Yes, finding that small of a clue after weeks of nothing just when the searches were dragging on for too long for the authorities tastes; like finding the famous needle in a haystack at the most convenient time. Right, their bodies were so destroyed by the rivers force that they were rendered tiny bony fragments and at some point few random fragments from two bodies jumped into the terrain far from the river and somehow landed in the same place? Yet somehow the immaculate backpack and its content was spared their fate and safely arrived over the Ngobe village location... makes sense. So they basically told either directly or indirectly to the parents: "this is what happened to your daughters; we spent over hundred thousand of dollars on equipment, helicopters and such, we did everything we could, now shut up and go home". That's so wrong and unjust; I guess as long as it's someone else's daughter, it's ok. Could be that Kris' body got fully covered by chemicals therefore bleaching everything in it's way (clothing apparel included), while in Lisanne's case it was omitted it's foot, permitting the tissue to still be present on foot bones protected by the shoe and sock? Also from what I read around (like that article explaining the local farmers how to dispose of contaminated dead cattle or Adelita Coriat's personal research of people who might have had these chemicals), it all seems to point to the fact that they were simply rid of in the same way they would animal's (if I'm not mistaken Kris' remains also presented soil remnants and fertilizer like they were buried in farm terrain for some time). Yes, we can only mumble about the most logic and reasonable explanation, considering all the evidence so far (that of course points to one possible explanation only). I truly believe amateur online searchers are at the moment the only hope for this case to ever be solved; hopefully at some point it will spark some good oversea journalist's interest, maybe some anonymous witness will come forward, something will leak, and it will all lead to a domino effect that in turn will solve it; I truly hope it."
B. replied: "So they basically told either directly or indirectly to the parents: "this is what happened to your daughters; we spent over hundred thousand of dollars on equipment, helicopters and such, we did everything we could, now shut up and go home". That's so wrong and unjust; I guess as long as it's someone else's daughter, it's ok. Could be that Kris' body got fully covered by chemicals therefore bleaching everything in it's way (clothing apparel included), while in Lisanne's case it was omitted it's foot, permitting the tissue to still be present on foot bones protected by the shoe and sock? Also from what I read around (like that article explaining the local farmers how to dispose of contaminated dead cattle or Adelita Coriat's personal research of people who might have had these chemicals), it all seems to point to the fact that they were simply rid of in the same way they would animal's (if I'm not mistaken Kris' remains also presented soil remnants and fertilizer like they were buried in farm terrain for some time). Yes, we can only mumble about the most logic and reasonable explanation, considering all the evidence so far (that of course points to one possible explanation only). I truly believe amateur online searchers are at the moment the only hope for this case to ever be solved; hopefully at some point it will spark some good oversea journalist's interest, maybe some anonymous witness will come forward, something will leak, and it will all lead to a domino effect that in turn will solve it; I truly hope it."
Me: "Yeh and the Kremers have said in an interview with a Dutch quality newspaper that the Dutch and Panamanian officials let them down and did the bare minimal. Searching mainly when these parents were around to hassle them, not going after countless important leads and forensic basics, and more or less sabotaging the correct way of doing such investigations. The Dutch prosecution more or less said what you just wrote : (quote) "It's almost like the authorities have the attitude of: you just listen, good citizen; we are the police and we do the investigation, and no-one else has anything to do with this. Once we come to a conclusion, we'll let you know." - Yes I think so too, Betzaida Pitti suggested that the brown shoe from Kris (brown in the photos of April 1st) got so light blue in colour with a totally bleached sole of the foot, because it had been out in the sun! No no, then one side of it would have been bleached more than the other, and the whole thing was bleached looked and blue. Besides, it was found in the jungle, protected by foliage. But you'd think Pitti would have at least have the shoe inspected on DNA from Kris, or from somebody else right? Nope, they were waiting for the shoe at the forensics office but she never gave the order. Well Lisanné foot and leg bones did not show these phosphate residues. Only Kris' bones did. I suspect that for whatever reason, it was Kris' body who was bleached and maybe Lisanne's wasn't, OR since all the bones found are all from Lisanne's left leg, that leg was amputated perhaps and left out to be found in pieces (see? accident!) while the rest of her body was treated with those chemicals and dissolved too? Many facts have been kept from us, the public, so it is very difficult to come to any real conclusions. We can only look again and again at the evidence that we do have, and make argumented assumptions.. Yes, its amateur searchers and crime journalists who are the only ones left to keep this case alive :( I am convinced more people in Boquete and surroundings know more, but are too afraid to talk. Perhaps one day.. Nevertheless there are here some questions that keep pushing to the forefront:
- How was it possible for K&L to disappear in a rather small area with so much open spaces, while it was in their interest to be found, and where they would by all logic have tried to get attention, while everybody was looking for them?
The area had huts and a maximum size of about 30 km2 to get lost in, as they did not wander around far near the Mirador in an East-West sense, parallel to the Continental Divide. That is a very small area to get lost in for so many days. And the girls had a long time to find their way back. With 12 hours of daylight, and that for days and days in a row, it is almost impossible to NOT find your way back.
- How was it possible for them to lose direction when there are actually very few paths to get mistaken with, and their probably good recognition of the path and all possibilities to discuss the right choices?
- How was it not possible for one of them to reach for high ground and make phone contact?
- How was it possible that they were not found, if they did make it on the 7th of April to the second cable crossing, close to an inhabited area?
It is also the quickness of conclusions and the lack of good and convincing arguments by the authorities that bother me in this case. They proposed a theory of the girls falling off a bridge, and the backpack with its fragile contents being swept away by a fast flowing river magically missing all the boulders sticking out of the river bed. When the given explanation by authorities fits with their own interests and lacks any convincing logic and factual base, you have to be careful. For me, the most compelling evidence that a crime occurred, or something extremely concerning at least, is that right after their first 911/112 calls no more pictures were taken. Lisanne made lots of photos prior to that and I read that over 500 pictures were stored on their phone). When you really do get lost, and you have a working camera with battery life, you take pictures. Pictures of interesting things you pass by, of anything that you can use in case you turn around at some point and need to find this trail back again. Its also not outside the realm of possibilities that they had given up their phones and PIN information to someone else. Someone who checked the time every day. And if they were alive and able to keep their phones (which I doubt), then those night pictures could have been an attempt to document something; some terror, some activity. Snapping in the dark hoping to capture something. Maybe during a brief time when one of the girls was unnoticed. Jeremy Kryt said that he thinks they tried to document their location for searchers but if that were the case and they were free to do so, they would have waited a few more hours for the sun to rise, as in the dark you are just wasting your photos and battery."
B. replied: "Hi! I agree entirely! The direction that the investigation should have went was to look into the girls' usual routines, habits. Lisanne was know for her cautious nature: meticulously documenting every experience and being in constant contact with their parents (we're not talking good morning and good nights, we're talking her texting her mum after the relative meaningless happening or when she needed some word of wisdom facing a situation in the contest that she was dealing with on a daily basis). This apparent little fact would have made it completely blatant to the police that, like you said, considering the geography of the place (no exit routes, locals, large open areas, Indigenous people) and the time span in which they supposedly were still alive, something unusual had happened, something that forced them to suddenly steer from what they'd usually do. I also think that the abrupt stop of pictures, the week in between, is a strong enough fact that tells us that something sinister happened. After that picture 508 the girls were rendered unable of using their camera anymore, for whatever reason, until that April 8th if we go by the main theory, and this fact contradicts it so strongly as well! Supposedly the girls were wandering around; using their phones at strange time intervals; not being seen by anyone walking on the trail (search parties, tourists, locals etc..), whilst stopping using the camera, which also had plenty of battery, unlike their phones whose batteries they were trying to preserve... makes no sense. How can two tall, clearly distinct looking girls, roam around totally lost on a one sided route (if we think of the path before the monkey bridges, which there is no chance that they had got to at 16:39 on April 1st); trying desperately to make phone contact; not being seen by anyone; not hearing helicopters and teams searching for them.. then after a week they out of nowhere decide to use the camera, at NIGHT, to:
- signal the helicopters/search parties: going by the SINAPROC website, searches were starting each day by 5:30 am and suspended in case of bad weather. That excludes this scenario since that night was also raining.
- scare off large animals: aside from the fact that big predators are nowhere to be seen in that area/shy away from humans; what about the previous nights in the jungle, animals started appearing only since day 8?
- Lisanne documenting Kris' death/wound: why doing it at night and just a few hours from sunrise?
In a extreme necessity scenario it could be considered/plausible, BUT it is directly contradicted by them not using the camera at all until that night! (if they were free to use the camera that night, they also had to, following picture 508 as well, and this is not the case).
After giving it a good thought, I could come up with only three plausible explanations:
- All the pictures were taken by someone else entirely, deliberately trying to paint a lost scenario and trying to mislead the investigation.
- One or both girls managed to escape briefly from their captors, reacquired possession of the camera and tried, in a desperate attempt, to document the spot/vicinity, hoping for someone to see that proof afterwards. In this case we are to assume that the girls took for granted that in doing the pictures (with flash on), they would have also be seen by their captors and be re-collected at some point or they would have made video/audio proof and not pictures (I don't know, seems too far fetched).
- Someone, possibly an Indigenous person with no expertise in electronics, found the backpack who was abandoned in the forest, took the camera and decided to start using it that night, making all those pictures in that relatively small time frame. The thing is that if you sit down and try to reason it out and use logic, it all points to a crime, or at least an early accident that turned in a crime later on."
I replied: "Yeh, Lisanne's mum told in one of the videos I put up here, that Lisanne had even contacted her mum by whatsapp a day or 2 prior to their disappearance, telling her about a massage they had in Boquete and she added to it: "It was a Dutch girl who did the massages mum, so don't worry!!" To me that says indeed that A. she was loyal in keeping her parents up to date and B. she was herself aware of possible dangers, even where there were none in this case. - Yes, and there have been other tourists gone missing, but they were almost always found back, usually within a day or 2 or 3 (minus the still not be found Alex Humphrey). This was clearly different and the Sinaproc chef more or less shouted out to his superior after weeks of searching: "THEY ARE NOT HERE". Nevertheless he had to keep looking. But they went over everything and this 2nd cable bridge over the river; it is used by others. There are Indigenous people living close by at the river. If they truly had been stuck there, with the whole region looking for them, then how come they never went to anyone and nobody ever saw them? If you had to recreate this entire situation, I think the challenge would be to NOT be seen by anyone. It must be like playing hide and seek with the entire population of Boquete, in a 30 km square area, and the other team can also use dogs, helicopters, local guides. Even if you'd try really hard, you probably would lose that game, and these 2 girls weren't hiding for the search teams by any logic, they WANTED to be found. It's absurd. So it seems more likely that they were held somewhere against their will, or were stuck somewhere where nobody could hear or see them. And had they been at the bottom of a cliff (and there aren't many in that region) then they would have been found there. Not disappeared and have some bones scattered out at 14 walking hours distance.... :( Without any microscopic teeth or claw markings on these bones, and with intact shoes found back without claw marks. And then the backpack could not have been found so far downstream. And what about Kris' jeans? It seems she (at least) was able to reach the 2nd river crossing, which would have been impossible if she'd been completely immobile due to a severe accident. - Yeh on the one hand some people say that the girls probably (? based on what?) wanted to save their camera battery. because you know, being lost in the jungle is the right time to suddenly worry about battery on your digital camera - and it was found back with remaining battery life anyway (Especially for the first days that is strange, because then you try to get back and you're not hysterical about saving battery).But then on the night of April 7-8h, there suddenly seemed to have been no reason to "save battery". And what's worse, they supposedly couldn't wait a few more hours for daylight to 'document this specific place they were at'? They go from not making any photos for almost 7 days, to shooting away many dozens that turn out black? Again, absurd. Especially regarding the many photos they took on their way to the top. Girls of that age take a lot of pictures. That they suddenly stopped doing that, is a very strange fact which cannot be disregarded or "covered" by an assumption "yeah, no reason, don't bother about it", like some people online do. I also read "they were too stressed/ too busy surviving to worry about photos". I don't believe that for a second. Most cases I have read about by now of stranded hikers and lost tourists and the lot, left messages, documentations of whatever sort behind. It is soothing for many, and humans are social animals who think of their loved ones and who will mostly always want to let them know what happened. But not here. I think, like you, that they were therefore incapacitated to do so, one way or another. And if so, then how come they then suddenly were able again that night of April 8th to photograph? - I mean, these girls weren't prepared for a very long hike. They seemed to have mostly been thinking about going up and down a trail casually; shorts, tank tops, not many snacks to eat.. They weren't survivalist or into the whole preparedness thing, so its unlikely that they were instantly thinking about the survivalist need to conserve the camera's batteries, later on day 1. They weren't planning or thinking that they would be there for a long time. And especially if a traumatic event happened or they thought they were lost, pictures would tell a story. Even in that book/movie Into the Wild the guy documents when he thinks he ate something poisonous. And the assumption by some that they were waving and trying to get the attention of a helicopter (flying around from 1 AM to 4 AM in a pitch dark jungle) is unfounded too. I've looked everywhere, combed through the Panamanian news, to find any evidence that that helicopter was flying at night at all, let alone on the night of April 8th, and if anyone finds that proof I'd love to see it, but I found nothing. The helicopter was used during several days but not every day and never at night. Think about it; it would put the pilots life at danger too, you cannot fly low over a jungle and mountainous terrain in the dark of night without taking some serious risks. I doubt they made those night photos and I doubt if they did, that it had anything to do with a helicopter.. And YES like you said, it was not mentioned on Sinaprocs website and it was raining that night, so double whammy; danger through bad weather and danger through darkness. Yeh scaring off wild animals; if they really were on a rock plateau next to the river, as Jeremy Kryt thinks, then they were more or less protected anyway, I read. Besides, wild animals are not scared away by a momentarily flash, experts have stated... And 4 hours of flashing is a long time for one animal. I agree with your proposed plausible reasons for the nighttime camera use. And in that same order. But what is speaking against the theory that they may have escaped their captors and ran off and hide, is that flashing would have given away their location, plus these photos were made more or less on the same place, Jeremy Kryt has stated. he had insight in all of the photos as someone anonymously passed him the entire case file, he says. And they were many photos of the same location, like panorama shots of the spot. If you are on the run, would you do that? But if you want to document where you last were in general, then why 90 photos and why in the dark? Useless. Leaves for me the 3rd party theory; and they did it in the dark because that was the only time that no-one would see them do it, protected by the cloak of night. There are the most indications (not facts) towards a crime, there's motive, there's opportunity and there's the Panamese police who at the least were sloppy, and at the most unwilling to investigate properly and professionally. Pointing to crime also is the fact that there are no photos between April 1st and 8th. None. Not a single one, to help guide them the way. (plus the mysteriously deleted photo 509 with its important location on our timeline). One of the reasons that former detective Dick Steffens wanted to set up an organization for Dutch people disappearing abroad, because hardly anything is done for you when something like this happens abroad; not by the local authorities who all have their own agenda's and interests, and not by your own countries officials who are too occupied with good diplomatic relations and put on the chain by the main investigators from the country it happened in. I wished more witnesses or people knowing more about all this would speak."
KW Dos Anjos wrote in 2018: "It is extremely naive for anyone to dismiss murder. It is even more naive to believe this was an accident. Lisanne and Kris were killed. It is forensically impossible for their bones to smash away in this manner with so few bone remains in the first place and why so far away from their starting point? Where is the rest of their bodies.....disposed by chemicals by the perpetrators? Why wasn't the guide who spoke to them about this trail and his ranch pursued? Why wasn't the Indigenous couple who found the rucksack questioned? Why was Panamanian police work so bad and late? Why did Betzaida Pitti, the incompetent State prosecutor not investigate thoroughly?? Could the host family be involved in this supply chain of murder? This is a grave cover up by the Panamanian government especially the fat, lazy incompetent "first prosecutor" Betzaida Pitti who went with the scientifically impossible "they were dragged by the river" garbage despite all evidence to the contrary. ALSO Who are these other two dozen missing/ murdered people in Boquete, apart from the two Dutch ladies and a British guy Alex Humphrey??? Alex Humphrey disappeared in Boquete in 2009. It astounds me that no other - apart from one or two writers - mentions this guide who spoke to Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers the day before. It was a lie the Indian woman stated about the backpack not being there a day earlier....Polygraph all these people...she said this as a decoy. These young Dutch women were followed and murdered in a horrifically and brutally unimaginable manner by this guide and his Indigenous accomplices who lives where the remains were found in Alto Romero (min 12 hours hike over in another province called Bocas Del Toro). You cannot hope for competence and justice by the Panamanian police or state prosecution - they've already covered up a murder and at the very least failed to conduct a full and thorough investigation - TO PROTECT TOURISM. The disrobing of underwear (bras) also hints of an attack of a sexual nature. No other clothes or bones found....they were dismembered and their remains disposed; the rucksack and other remains found were just a decoy. A French couple who did the hike the next day after the Dutch ladies stated they met a guard who had heard screams the day before. Of course the state prosecutor didn't bother to interview them. She only wanted a ridiculous dragged by the river line of investigation pursued. Why??? The Dutch police were also in the end useless and limited to what the unbelievably lazy state prosecutor allowed. Any hint of foul play the state prosecutor dismissed at once as baseless. The Dutch private detective Steffens hired by the families of Lisanne and Kris also believe it was murder. As does the family Lawyer who tore down Pitti's (State Prosecutor) pitiful argument a river dragged them. The river would not be high or vigorous enough to do this at this time of year. Pitti mentioned no animals or trauma to the bones yet talks of the girls being prey to dangerous animals???? Pure lies. It needs to be verified but there are reports the local Indigenous (indians / indigena) sing a song in reference to Lisanne and Kris "Alguien les hizo el mal en el camino" - "Someone did evil to them on the trail". May Lisanne and Kris rest in peace. This is a horrifically tragic and frightening case. Justice will be prevail."
Erique Lamont replied: "If it is foul play, then why did the killer not dispose of Lisanne Froon's bones? They found her foot in her shoe and some of her lone bones, all still had flesh attached...why would an alleged killer only destroy the flesh from one girls body? The only 'bleaching' I heard of is Kris' hip bone, and some pathologists have said that can happen in nature anyway. [this is incorrect: ALL Kris' bones including a rib bone contained bleach] It makes no sense to say a killer disposed of the bodies when there was still flesh on Lisanne's bones.. Why would a killer let them have access to their phones and cameras for at four days or so? Also, why keep all that evidence together in one backpack? Wouldn't a killer who disposed of a body with lye (one body only, remember) break the camera and phones and bury them somewhere in the jungle far apart from each other so that they'd never be found? Scatter and bury the phones and camera all over the jungle, even if someone found one of them, it would be no use...the same with the bras...why keep evidence together? Every item could have been put in a backpack and over those ten weeks been put anywhere in Panama and no one would ever find them, or if they did would have no idea they were linked to the girls. No, the fact that there is the bag and contents as evidence makes no sense, the skin on Froon's bones makes no sense if they were bleached and disposed of. I'm not ruling out foul play, but all I see is a tragic accident... The only real puzzle -if true- is photo #509 being deleted by a computer, the girls obviously didn't do that, so who did? Either, the photo had some incriminating evidence of either the girls behaviour or even of someone attacking them (who knows) and the photo was deleted deliberately to protect someone. Or, some simpleton who first put the SD card in a computer accidentally deleted that photo... Either is a possibility. It is a shame, that photo could be important."
Six Turning Four Burning replied: "Because at that time two months later the perp/ perps wanted them to be found as a warning to stay the hell away and they knew what little evidence they released wouldn't go back to them. Plus they wanted the camera to be found with the night pictures the killer/killers took. I think they saw something they weren't supposed to see and took a picture of it (509). Might have been an execution. Other bone fragments were found with the bones of the two girls as well. The bad guys saw them and the girls ran off in a panic and the bad guys went after them. They managed to evade them in the jungle for the next few days trying to get a signal but were caught by April the 7th. Those 77 attempts to enter the pin on the iphone were from the killer/killers. Kris was probably dead at that point since they would have beat the pin code out of her. They deleted photo 509 in the camera. Took those night pictures to make it look like the girls got lost, hurt and died from exposure/hunger. Lisanne was killed sometime on or after April 7th. Their bodies were stripped, dismembered and dumped two months later after being kept on that nearby ranch."
truecrimediva replied: "Thank you for all of the information you provided! You make some great points. You obviously know the case as well as the area. After reading this, I have to agree with the murder theory. I leaned that way originally, and it really does make the most sense."
HughJorgan.H60 wrote: "I've been reading about this a lot the past couple days and it's clear to me why this is such a mystery. Neither story (lost and dying of exposure vs. murdered) makes sense. Originally, I agreed with your take: they went off trail, perhaps slipped or deliberately went down a steep embankment, then thought they were heading back towards the village via a different route only to be hiking deeper and deeper into the bush. The steep terrain meant that turning back was either not an option or a worse option with every step they took, and before they knew it, they were hopelessly lost. Then one is injured, they're stranded, and through a variety of unfortunate circumstances, they both perish. But, here's where my doubts lie: If they became lost, what happened to picture #509? There is a picture deleted that seems to have been deleted on a computer because it was unrecoverable on the camera flashcard. Had it been deleted on the camera, it likely would have been recoverable. Additionally, am I really supposed to believe that the river, which was supposedly strong enough to rip two bodies literally to tiny pieces in an incredibly short period of time, was simultaneously not strong enough to damage the backpack? It was found, having washed downstream, with minimal signs of wear and tear, with everything packed inside and in working order. It'd be like a wind blowing through strong enough to rip a house of it's foundation, but then finding a stack of loose leaf papers sitting undisturbed nearby. It doesn't add up. Lastly, I find the lack of valuable pictures from the 90 to be incredibly strange. Perhaps the camera was being used to signal, or to take pictures of the surroundings, or something of that sort, but are we really to believe that one or both of them was stranded for multiple days in a single location and not once did they take a picture of themselves? I find that incredibly strange, although not unexplainable. But the pictures, if they did serve a purpose, certainly failed to communicate anything helpful. Which doesn't seem like it'd be hard to do even for someone who was delirious. Regardless, unless a murder is found and confesses, I suspect we'll never truly know what happened to them."
Danny R. Smith replied: "I've had cases where only a few pieces of the skeleton remained. Animals can take pieces and run off. Think of a pack of coyotes each grabbing what they could and heading over the hill. Searches are usually constrained by terrain and quite honestly manpower and hours. A fifty foot diameter or maybe a hundred yards, depending on the terrain. There is so much overgrowth in that region there could be bones within those distances that will never be found. As far as markings, the absence of the markings on the remaining bones just means an animal did not disturb that part. Here's another way to look at it: If someone killed them at the spot, what would be different about how they were found? Nothing. Why would someone kill them elsewhere, keep parts of their bodies and move the other parts? Presumably a long way away? That's a lot of work and effort. Again, I haven't studied the case, just read through this blog quickly. So, I am not making a declaration of what happened, just throwing out my thoughts about possibilities. Just from what I have read, if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd lean toward non-criminal death, accidental/ recreational."
Eric Chan wrote on March 25th 2019: "My thought: 1) Where did picture #509 go? That is the critical pictures between the last happy picture #508, and the first of the night time photos #510 seven days later. The investigators have noted that the girls didn’t delete any other pictures, except #509. So they do not know why they would delete #509, which in this situation would be very crucial to the investigation. Another interesting thing is that the #509 picture was totally deleted and cannot be restored. When a camera deletes a picture, usually it can be restored. It would take a PC computer to totally delete a picture. If so this would mean foul play.
2) No goodbye messages. When people know that it is hopeless, and they will die, they would leave behind goodbye massages to love ones. This is done to let their love ones know that they love them, and to explain how they got themselves into the life threatening situation. They can write something down. And in this case, the girls could have made a goodbye video with their camera or cellphone. At the very least, they would have taken a goodbye picture of themselves on their camera or cellphone. The only reason the girls didn’t leave any goodbye message is that they weren’t able to. However given that “they” can take 90 photos on the 7th days after they disappeared, on April 8th, it shows that “they” easily could have left a goodbye message. And by “they”, perhaps I am no longer referring to the 2 girls, but their murderer. It takes only a few minutes to leave one goodbye video. “Mama, Papa, I love you!” Certainly by April 8th, it must come upon the girls that this might be it, and they should leave a good bye message (if they were alive). They know they were in grave danger, and they were still strong enough to take 90 photos at night, so why didn’t they leave a goodbye message?
3) Not a single picture of the girls. The only picture we have is the back of the head of one of the girls at night. It was almost as if the girls don’t want their face to be seen at all. Why all the secrecy? That picture of one of the girls’ back of the head at night, unfortunately, does not prove that she was still alive. And if she was dead, why would the other girl take a picture of the back of her dead friend’s head?
4) Who took those 90 night time photos on April 8th? Who was checking the cellphone signals and calling 112/911 between April 1st and 11th? Given the above, it seems unlikely that those pictures were taken by the 2 girls. Once again, why no goodbye messages then? Some people suspect it was an animal or monkey that took the pictures. But I say it was their murderer(s). The cellphone signal checking thing can easily be done by the murderer, to “pretend” that the girls were alive when they were already murdered. It is no rocket science. The murderer knew there was no signal in that location so the calls will never go through. That’s why the murderer was confident to call the police, because he knew he would not actually need to talk to the police. And the murdered did this for 6 days from April 1st to 6th, and then return one more time on April 11th.
5) There were other murders in the area after these 2 girls. The area that they hiked in was not the safest place. There were other “unrelated” murders in the same area. Could be the cartel. Could be some tribes.
Conclusion: The rainforest is a very dangerous place. These 2 girls could have died of natural cause easily. However in this case, being in a naturally dangerous location does not automatically mean it wasn’t a murder. There are evidence that indicates foul play. However even so, we might never catch the killer."
(The video makers wrote:) "The Dutch are not the only case of people missing in that place, the family of the Dutch had the economic finances to come over and to move the press, but there are more cases."
-"The strange things is that the taxi driver died shortly after."
-"You're right and you know I saw many videos of this case and only on two channels I saw that they remembered the death of the taxi driver, most don't mention it."
-"Excellent short movie, in the end I was scared too because of the photos that the girl was taking, it was blown by boys."
-"Do not be so assholes, since the FBI detected more than 2 fingerprints on cell phones, which presumably leads to a murderer."
-"Take the time to read the description of the video ..."
-"Proving murder is not the priority for them or the fbi, the power of the business is and the tests are irrelevant."
-"Road to terror ... Panamanian version."
-"FBI investigators say that in this case there was a third person."
-"I am familiar with the case and it has impressed me a lot even though the years have passed. I feel that there was someone else and that hidden information blanket. Is there any new sign? Poor women!"
-"In addition, the owners of the hotel had to have gone to look for them when they did not return. I don't know..."
-"God...
-"In fact, yes, there really was no criminal hand, the photos of the camera that they found revealed that the victims remained alive even when they were tracked with helicopters, in the camera there are photos of the helicopters, and some videos, of them talking, simply that that did not come to light Soon we will upload a video talking about that." (I have never seen proof of this).
-"If you were a hotel owner: Would you go looking for those who do not return? ... What we do agree on something: that you do not know ... But not what you write."
-"I think the Dutch took the pictures because something lurked in the dark."
-"APPLAUSE!! A MAGNIFICENT WORK THAT I JUST SEEN. I CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT I HAVE LESS REPRODUCTIONS THAN THE ONE WHO DID DROSS. THIS, WHAT THEY DID, IF IT AFFECTED ME MORE."
-(The video makers wrote:) "Greetings, thank you very much for assessing our work, we saw the report by Dross, of course we live 40 minutes from the place where the events occurred, our intention was simply to capture in a short film, everything speculated about this unfortunate event."
-"What happened to the Dutch girls was unfortunate, ... but the version of your short film was great, ... you know personally I never would ever enter that place with another person, at least more than 6 people should enter, of course with a guide."
-"Well this is just a hypothesis of what could have happened with these poor girls but and because the death of the taxi driver shortly after they appear dead is very strange, as I said is a total break poor girls heads that in peace rest greetings from Paraguay."
-"Going onto the path without a guide was imprudent ... what happened next will not be known ... a pity."
-"They were not thieves the k they killed because they did not take anything, I do not believe in cannibals or they would have found many more victims, but if the guides charge so much I think there may be a connection with powerful people behind all this k decides to punish who he does not hire them, a secret movement where even the taxi driver also paid the bill ... they had to investigate that area ... horror!"
-"I miss the part where they "cut" the foot."
-"I thought it was a professional production, but it turned out to be amateur, but it still worked out well."
-"To be professional you have to clarify the case and so take the story to the screen, .. at the beginning you say ... BASED ON ACTUAL FACTS the short movie was not bad, but we still do not know what happened there ... well here in Chiriqui we know that they should not have gone there alone, in that place even the plants have eyes."
-"Ok, this short film was made in summer, it is not the adverse conditions that the Dutch found themselves in!"
-(The movie makers replied:) "Yes friend, and we did not perform in that area, we only used about 500 meters from the entrance of the actual (Il Pinaista) park, everything else was shot in Bugaba in a rural area."
-"The theory of the caveman tribe, it is very possible that it is true because of what the locals say. But forensics would have found something in the remains of the girls, the teeth of animals and prehuman beings would be noticed."
-"That sure was creepy, nice work. Too bad the camera man in the upper right at 4:05 couldn't help them. Very cruel business :/"
-"And then YAP! Oh deeds!"
-"Well, now everything is clear."
-"There is a mystery there, I think the authorities have not said everything, ... there is something there that they do not want to touch."
-"Interesting but I am afraid I do not buy the hiking accident theory about the 2 girls. Nothing feels right, nothing adds up about the case. Why would they have walked so far off the trail? Without proper supplies, knowledge or clothing. Why were only a handful of the cameras photos released to the press? Why the deleted image 509? Why no larger remains found? No skulls? No other clothing? How was the backpack in such good condition and dry after 72 days in the jungle? How were the phones as such..and the camera? Why did the girls remove their bras and place them in the backpack? Why only a single water bottle? In my mind I have no doubt they met with terrifying and brutal deaths at the hands of some cruel local or a group of locals and were lured or forced off the trail then who knows what those poor girls went through before they died. The blue backpack was planted there along with other evidence to throw off the investigation. The whole case stinks of a typical South American corrupt country covering its own ass. I hope they rest in peace and I hope the 2 families find inner peace one day too!"
-"If it is a recreation of what happened that I was but who made the photos the being or the guy? And at the end you see something that pulls it: / "
-"No, yes, "the mountain" cut off her foot and take the pelvic bone to the other side and leave their bags with their underwear and all along the river... damn mountain."
-"Very well done, it captures the eerie atmosphere with the music, and it actually scared me so much I couldn't finish watching this late at night, but watched the rest the next morning. The end seems to imply cannibals, but I tend to modern criminals, because of the missing photo 509, that a cannibal couldn't have erased via a computer. I think the girls were held captive by someone or more and one or both managed to escaped after 10 days, during the night, and tried to illuminate the path with their phone, OR, someone set up the last photos to confuse the investigators. The backpack with bras and sunglasses, the shorts elsewhere, all this looks like third party and foul play, especially because the local woman explained that she found it where it had not been before, and it was "fresh". So if she told the truth, the killer placed the backpack there, --he got rid of it, so it wouldn't be found anywhere related to him. I think a likely suspect is the rejected tour guide, who created situation where tourists and he were swimming in the nude, which may reveal the hope for sexual adventures-- but these girls rejected him, and he may have obsessed over them. The taxi driver, who took them to the Pianista dies 4 weeks later under mysterious circumstances,--the third party may have gotten rid of a witness. Several people KNEW the girls would take a hike alone, and may have been hoping to have consensual sex with them if they met by accident, OR were planning to assault and kill them. It's not normal that the search parties found NO trace of them! Something happened to them after Kris was standing on the rocks in the creek."
-"This youtube film is disrespecfull to the parends from Kris and Lisanne sheame youre self"
-"Nope, it is not. Maybe the end is. The rest is a fine theory which goes along with the evidence."
-"Not really, in that place they have lost many people , just has not been documented internationally.
this is just a fictional story , according to stories."
-"Hello my opinion is that something in this forest saw something something stalking them or something paranormal or creature the truth I do not know or I will know it but organ traffic does not seem to me at all nor thieves nor xq if it were so other scenario but for me those girls were very terrified to ask for help xq when it is white. They would have been killed by one or the thieves would take everything they loaded."
-"The thieves care more about the organs xq coso arian cost a good money and how you explain the footprints in your camera and the photo that is deleted."
-"Jungle is silent ... jungle never says anything ..Only God knows ..."
-"That forest is hungry I can see it clearly."
-"Total paparruchada. To divert attention from what happened. It suits them to believe in paranormal or Indian or cavemen. Ignorant Some time later another young tourist died violently before being raped and tortured in Bocas del Toro. It is a mafia that acts with impunity. The unfortunate thing is that the parents of the girls themselves accepted the closing of the case on behalf of the authorities of Panama, who alleged that the girls lost their lives due to the imprudence of having gone alone and that it was quite an accident. I understand the pain of the parents but I do not understand how they did not want to continue investigating to know the truth. If they do not defend their daughters we can do it ourselves. Impotence is felt to see these things happen and nobody does anything."
-"Boys Sherlock, but such a question is why the rescuers and the police, knowing that the girls have phones but no calls and phones outside the network did not think to look from the Caribbean descent, where there are no cellular stations. In my opinion it is logical, but even the helicopter didn’t fly there, why ??"
-"Hello thank you very much for commenting, the place is not accessible, the trees are very big and do not allow people to see. Regarding the phone this area in the country is very extensive as far as the lack of telephone signal"
-"Do not deviate the subject .. there is a murderer or murderers or group sabra so that there in Panama and they do not want to say because they would not want to go the tourists they killed them that was not in accident, the killers always want to make that look like that .. the authorities Panamanians know the truth and do not want to say it."
-"The Dutch girls were devoured by the cannibal Indians "rabbits". The most accurate evidence of this death were the photographs taken in the early hours of the morning in which one of the bodies of the girls appears and which one of those cannibals surely took."
-"True."
-"AND THE INDIANS FOLDED THE CLOTHES? PORQ THEY HAD CLOTHES OF ONE OF THEM BENT ON TOP OF A ROCK IN ADDITION TO FINGERPRINTS IN THEIR BELONGINGS BUT AS ON ALL SIDES OF THE THIRD WORLD THE PUBLIC MINISTRY IS A SHIT."
-"What I can tell you is that neither the wild animals nor the river could bend it, and those are the versions of the authorities. Faster is dubbed by an Indian of those."
-"Somebody raped and killed them, not a cannibal if there had already been someone from that place did it and to leave no trace I think kill you as you are guey."
Marlinmark wrote:
"Their first emergency call was made at about the time they should've been arriving back in Boquet on April 1st. They knew they were in trouble long before a subsequent supposed injury. If a catastrophic injury had occurred and were the main reason they didn't just return that first day, there would be stronger photographic evidence of it. They strayed or were led into an area that was essentially off limits without a guide, according to local custom. The daytime photographs suggest that they were abducted by someone they met on the trail who like Lisanne doesn't appear in the photos. Kris is always in the lead looking back as if to say "this way?" Perhaps the person was known to them and didn't seem a threat at first. After perhaps a long hike and possibly even hosted by their abductor/s they began to realize they weren't guests any longer and eventually tried to escape at night, hence the night photos with no real subject. This would happen if the camera were held high for lighting from the flash and not really aimed at a subject. Their cell phone usage during those days could be consistent with being captives, understanding that the abductors would know their was no cell service and allow them to keep their phones. They probably didn't get far in their escape attempt and were murdered shortly after being recaptured. [..] I think an abduction/crime is most likely. Natural forces strong enough to dismember a body completely would not have left clothes intact. The bras in the pack were those the girls were wearing? Kris' shorts were intact (and perhaps folded neatly) and there was no significant damage to the pack or the other delicate electronic contents... I think they tried to escape their abductors at night, using their cell phone flash to find/stay on trails and avoid hazards. The photo with a suggested "prone body in a steep ravine" looks a lot like Kris in the distance, walking upright and carrying the pack like a handbag in her left hand. The view is like earlier photos taken by Lisanne with a view down the trail and Kris in the lead. The plant stems are standing straight up toward the sky and oriented vertically the way Kris is standing. There is a large semi-buried stone in the path with moss/lichen/algae on the sides of it but none on top. They probably tried to signal with a mirror and red flags in clearing areas (along streams/ravines) where canopy openings afforded it. There were helo's flying around on April 2nd looking for them in that area; they probably heard them and tried to signaling with the scant things they had. Unfortunately they were probably eventually found by someone who didn't intend to help. Perhaps they were initially so relieved to be found that they were more easily deceived into going in a direction that was not to safety but to a house or compound where they were detained against their will. They covertly tried to make distress calls but had no cell service or had to cut calls short due to possible detection. Their phone activity seems consistent with abduction if their captors knew that phone service were impossible where they were held and didn't even bother to check for or take their phones as a result. They tried to escape at night using their phones but were caught and murdered. Out of dozens that should've been there, only one large bone was found and it had no predation/scavenger marks on it, neither did the small ones. Where are all of other large bones that would've withstood more natural destruction better than fabrics and electronics? They used their phones for over a week, the phone were in the backpack when found and in similarly good condition. Therefore the phones and the back pack were in the same place/s at the same time/s receiving the same exposure or lack of it. They were with the girls and later with their abductor until they were planted where they were found. The human remains received entirely different treatment than either the shorts or the backpack so as to be almost nonexistent (and bleached). If scattered by a predator, why no teeth marks on the boots or pelvic bone? No, these girls were murdered..."
lostgirl96 replied: "It seems crazy that no one else crossed that path for weeks, especially since the creepy tour guide's farm wasn't too far away. Also wouldn't it be common sense for the able bodied person to get help right away if their partner was injured?? I get that they were off the main trail but surely any effort would have been better than laying there for days waiting for death. I agree that the unusual way their remains and belongings were found have to be from locals tampering with them. Maybe they have traditions where the body parts/bones could have been used? Cannibalism? The bleaching of the bones is definitely interesting.. as if someone had something to hide.."
Evangitron replied: "I've wondered if the calls were made because they thought someone was following them or circling their camp and that's why all the dark photos as well. He'd need to make her give him the passcode to delete the photo tho so maybe they did it on their own but I don't think it was her trying to use her friends phone, because I believe in a trip like that she would know the others passcode and vice versa. But maybe he was worried that photos would be on there, making him seem guilty so he was trying to get into it. For all we know he planted their stuff also. I wonder what other disappearances are alike and if they've searched his or his sons property for their bodies."
Some youtube commentsBy the way: I have read quite a few comment sections under Spanish video on this case and it is interesting to hear what the 'locals' have to say about it. Well... where European/ American/ Russians for a good part still believe in the accident theory, the majority of the Spanish speaking Latin Americans I read comments from, mostly all seem to suspect the same thing; murder. Either a sex attack or organ trafficking. They mostly all seem to agree without heated discussions or online fights (like they happen on some of the western discussion boards) that the perpetrators set a trap and made it look like an accident, simply by placing some bones and the backpack and staging some photos. To them it seems not a big deal at all. Over here people get upset sometimes even when you suggest this option, because they think it is ludicrous. But it is interesting to read some more about what the locals there think of it and what their experience is. Their most named theories; the girls did come down the mountain again (as said by some witnesses) and the taxi driver - who was later murdered, or who at least died at age 34 or 36 or something - had tipped people off and they were taken to a place where there was no cell coverage, falling victim to crime. That's one theory, the bones and backpack where then strategically placed in the jungle to stage an accident and them having gotten lost. The other is that they were followed and stalked in the woods. They may have escaped around April 8 and taken those nighttime photos, or the killer(s) took those photos trying to find the girls back but they eventually were recaptured. Others have detailed stories about the girls ending in the sex trade in Colombia, surviving for another three weeks.. I hope its not true, but can't help thinking about both these scenario's. Here are some comments from mostly Spanish speaking people or people living in Latin America (I translated most of them into English if needed).
Ramiro Saltamuros wrote (translated): "According to a witness, 9 men with machetes tied them and hit them. They did thorough investigation into this."
"If one of them was injured early on, it sure would’ve been easier to track back than how far they wound up from the Divide, miles away. They wouldn’t have made it that far injured. The injury must’ve come later on based on their eventual distance past the Divide."
"I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth, but I do think whatever the reason the primary act that prevented them coming back was an injury to one of them, Kris is obviously in the vanguard and in some photos looks like she is waiting for Lisanne, and reading around the internet there is some thinking that Lisanne was a little ill at the time of the hike. It could just be that the dynamics between the two weren’t balanced and Kris hurried along into an accident, or Lisanne rushing to catch up hurt herself. Once either were hurt on the other side of the divide, the injured party may not have been able to make it back up the slopes to the Mirador, leaving her friend with the choice of carrying on and leaving her friend alone, or staying with her friend. What happens next is the question."
"A friend of my daughter’s was staying at a hostel in boquete and was kidnapped and drugged. 8 months later and he still remains at home. He suffered memory loss which caused him to fear his father, and couldn’t come home for some time because of seizures. Others in the hospital he was at had been taken for human trafficking and he was taken by the same people. I’m interested because of the way his school (it was a school mission trip) and the travel company are portraying the situation, at least in the paper. If you can respond, could it please be to my email? Thank you."
"My friend Cristiano Zeviani went missing in Dolega, close to Boquete, when he went to show property on May 10, 2016. He is now missing 25 days. The there is a UK young man that has vanished without a trace as well, in 2009. This time, he went missing form he Majagua Hostal, close to Dolega. Could there be a connection ? Too much coincidence for my taste. [..] 25 days since the disappearance of my friend Cristiano Zeviani in Chiriqui! Yes, 25 days and no trace of him! Last seen in the area of El Caño de Dolega, where he went to show a property to an unknown interested party. His car was found back far away in the desolate area of Respinga in Cerro Punta without the license plate and window sticker. Not a trace of Cristiano, and the authorities keep telling us they have great leads but can’t tell us anything. This has been going on now since the investigation has started. Did you know that the then 35 year old Brit Alex Humphrey disappeared from Majagua, close to Dolega, in 2009. Last seen at the hostal of Majagua, where the little waterfall is. Not a trace of him still, either."
"The fingerprints on record with the Panamanian police, indicating a previous criminal record and the 2 bras and pairs of sunglasses in the backpack that have never gotten wet. All too neat and tidy next to a human pelvis. It just doesn’t feel right to me. Also the first attempt to reach 911 and the Dutch emergency number only two hours down the trail on a sunny clear day and an easy trail is off as is the timeline for later calls and photos. Too much time passes unless they were held somewhere and then released with no trail to follow, It just doesn’t “feel” right. This experienced old psychic smells a skunk."
"The bras and shorts found, showed no traces of bodily fluids, indicating that they were not wearing them at the time of death. In spite of this, the Dutch authorities assume that they must have fallen from a ridge or so and that they got stuck somewhere. Falling from a cliff with no clothes on? I don’t buy that."
"Well, as a retired Military Police Officer, and formerly assigned in Panama, and being there in 2008/09, I PERSONALLY seen something that wasn’t right in Boquete, that very well could connect these murders and disappearances. A New York girl, same age, similar looks, was just murdered not far from where this backpack was found. Good luck Panama with stonewalling the FBI….. Not going to happen. If I have to go there, and on my own dime and time, I WILL!!! I have an idea who MIGHT be doing these atrocities. And I am actively getting involved. None of the said scenario’s are possible. ESPECIALLY since the girls had a DOG with them!!! Whoever is doing this, time is running out for you."
"I think it probably a mix of the two main hypotheses. One of them got injured on the other side of the divide and couldn’t walk back up to the Mirador, so they used the mobiles, no joy with them, so probably decided to hunker down for the night. Then someone found them, but, unfortunately, they weren’t there to help :-( The only thing I can’t ‘get’ is why they strayed from any path, given that off-path would be heck of a struggle through foliage and they had no bush knives, and over the coming days the searchers followed the paths (whether they were the right paths…)…the girls must have been in that locale because they still had no signal and tried several times to call 911…and I can’t see any criminal letting them keep their phones."
"I lived in Estado de Hererra, Panama for three years beginning in 1994. When I travelled around the country for my work or vacation I always travelled alone. At the time, I did not feel uncomfortable travelling alone in Panama, people were generally kind with me. I was 25, and I was a bird, very Naïve is more like it, (I am 49 now). I felt no concern travelling alone as a young, blonde, attractive, studious, scientific young woman from the United States. During the last 3 months of my 3 years work in Panama I decided to visit the beautiful mountain village of Bouquette. I had heard that there was a history of Polish women who entered the mountain village during WWII and I wanted to discover if this was factual. I was curious, because my family is Polish and I was told “I looked Polish” more than once when I was living in Panama. I would always ask the person what they knew about the Polish people in Panama and they would describe Bouquette. I was on another typically long, dangerous Panamanian bus ride for this trip to Bouquette. I was tired. When we arrived closer to Bouquette , we stopped in a bigger town with a bus station.I was on the bus sitting in the back waiting for the bus to continue on to Bouquette. I did not leave the bus at this stop. A man got on the bus, smiled right at me, walked toward me on the bus and then grabbed my breast. He began speaking to me in a dialect I did not understand. The local people on the bus were watching, silent. He was talking at me loudly. Then he signaled me to go with him. He was loud, pushy. I refused. He left the bus. An old lady looked at me and said in Spanish that he was a warning. I was so offended by his touch, I initally didn’t pay much attention to the dama’s words. I sat there as the bus continued on to Bouquette. When it became the ladies turn to get off the bus, she looked at my eyes directly and said again that he was a warning, I heard her say the word peligroso and then she left the bus. I listened to her words that time-they were certainly meant for me. When the bus arrived to Bouquette I checked into the most exspensive Inn in Bouquette and stayed in the room all night. I told the owner I was sick, and had food delivered to my room. I was freezing cold, absolutely frigid in the room all night. I was scared too, very scared. I felt threatened and not-safe. I felt very warned not to go out in Bouquette at all. That local lady made sure I understood that somehow I was in danger. I stayed in my room all night and left the very next day. At the time I felt embarrassed to myself, but now as a grown woman I know that was my intuition leading me to safety. Someone bad was watching me move toward Bouquette and someone good protected me from whatever evil was waiting for me. Never since my experience in Boquette have I felt such a strong warning come through. In retrospect, I truly believe that there was great potential for me to be harmed while in Bouquette if I walked in the mountains or enjoyed the river as a tourist and as I planned. I was warned. I was very Lucky, I am very Lucky. I have never spoke of this experience to anyone until I came across this information in these articles. My experience is small, my hope is that it could somehow help someone. I have never returned to Bouquette. Spooked."
"They didn't have experience in those things, not leaving alone the one injured, buried them both. She should have gone for help immediately or at least the other day. The lack of experience killed them. No guide, no proper clothes, no emergency kit, not telling anybody they were there. If nothing else happened to them, they risked too much."
"Yeah, something happened, just like something happens to a lot of Paulides's subjects to sell you a book: These girls went into the jungle in less clothing than many would wear to bed without even a lighter in their hip pocket. Go into the bush unprepared die in the bush if not found. That's how that works."
"It is very possible they were held captive and were able to escape at night, attempting to use the flash to find their way in the darkness. They, or one of them escaped. And used it as flashlight. But was catched up. they were probably able to escape their captor(s) temporarily, and then tried to get help before being caught again and why are they being so secretive about the autopsies? The results haven't been released. [..] When bodies decompose it turns into a greasy waxy putrid ooze. Which can be smelled for miles. Even when buried in a shallow grave this waxy ooze can be smelled. Yet no reports of stench. No body wax found on clothing. This wax doesn't wash away with rain. Phones had never gotten wet. Even though it rained heavily. We know this because phones have a sensor strip in them to indicate moisture. This is what insurance company uses to detect Whether a defect is due to customer negligence. Yet the backpack was supposed to be outdoors for 9 weeks. No teeth. No mandible. Even if the girls died where they were found there are no animal's in that region which carry off skulls. Even if, and that's a big IF, an animal would have carried away. The skull the mandible separates from the skull. The mandible is only connected by soft tissue. The tongue, eyes, cheeks, lips, genitals are the first to go. Those mandibles would have been there. The bones of three other unidentified bodies were found with the girls. Someone who knows the area as knows there is no cell service. No reason why he couldn't have dialed 911 knowing it wouldn't help. Taunting. The fact that these girls shares everything tells me they knew one a others passwords. Also, the phones were only turned on for a minute. At most. Until the failed password attempts. Then it was left on for more than an hour. Before being powered down. This is inconsistent behavior. What was being down with this phone during that hour? What made that time different than every other time? I know a Samsung disables itself for the days of the password is entered incorrectly mire than three times in a row. That was not the Samsung though. It was the iPhone. So why a sudden change in behavior then nothing? The whole thing is just odd. If the pic wasn't deleted by a pc, if the mandible was there, if body wax was found on the clothing, soil were bones were found, if the phones had gotten wet I'd say sure, the likelihood of them getting off trail, injured, succumbing to the elements would be plausible. I'd even be willing to believe it possible still if authorities could provide answers to those questions mentioned above.
"How did the photo get deleted from the sd card? Why no body grease on the clothing. Why were their bras in their bag and not on? The bras in the bag are the bras they were wearing. Where is this cliff it is said they fell from? Some suggest they might have fallen at the monkey bridge. Why were they not found at the monkey bridge when searches were looking for them? What happen bed to what was in the bag? They brought it for some reason. Not to carry a single bottle of water in it. They didn't take a backpack just in case they decided to take off their bras. Why no larvae on the foot? Why no mud on or in the shoes? Just questions ya know. Why lime on the bones? Lime is natural in some soils. That soil it is not. So their camera survived that long, in tact and not wet, and found a computer in the jungle to delete the one photo off the memory card? That’s waaay more far fetched than admitting perhaps there is more that meets the eye in this case. Also, bras just jump off of dead dirty bodies and fold themselves up nice and neat? And iPhones don’t get wet in the jungle after all that time? And how about the trail guide they were suppose to meet up with the next day? He was the last person to see the girls and first to find the body. He had a history of being aggressive and sexual harassment with European tourists. He also entered into the girls room at their house before the police arrived and contaminated the scene."
"Multiple theories:
1. They dog that was with them suddenly ran off, they chased the dog because they didn't want to return home without the owner's dogs and that's how they got lost.
2. They continued after reaching the end of trail because it was only 1 o clock and going a bit further can't hurt right? They realised it was getting dark soon and they wouldn't be able to get back before dark and panicked. Tried to make their way back in the dark and got lost.
3. Foul play, they were being stalked/followed so couldn't follow the track back but only forward deeper into the jungle."
"Yea, they were either murdered by a very smart person who faked the sos markings and took pictures of it so this would look like a classic case of failed hiking. Or (and that sounds more realistic to me) they came across a weirdo and he followed them - not wanting to kill them but to approach them - and then they decided to flee and got lost."
"I think the theory of organ trafficking is more acceptable. I would only add that before removing the organs and disseminating them to make them believe that they were [killed by] animals, they were victims of a sexual attack, perhaps that included an accident to escape. Because the bras did not have them on and in the case Kris had no pants on, that is, she was half naked, her pants on a rock. The girl who made this video did not read what was investigated? The experts said that the bones found had no sign of being bitten by animals, that is ruled out. Yes, some leg bones had some tear due to a fall possibly. Everything that was omitted was to investigate the guides who had contact with the girls, the mysterious death of the taxi driver, finish with the search for almost complete bodies, the deleted photos of the camera, the 34 fingerprints of different people who were not investigated, added to the background of similar events occurred in the area are strong elements to reach the conclusion that not enough was done to find the truth. There were more than 20 disappearances and / or murders not clarified in the area. It was only known that more than a year ago the raped and strangled body of the young American tourist appeared, her body was found almost at the entrance of the path in Bocas del Toro."
"I live in a country further south and here also killed tourists who were young women. I can assure you that there are no primitive or alien tribes here. They are criminal organizations that are dealing with white women (usually very young women), drug trafficking and organ trafficking."
"You are absolutely right, today, the traffic of people is today, the most lucrative for these organized crime companies. There is a serious study of interpol in Europe, and the amount of disappearances there is an exaggeration."
"Looks like you can drink the water. This story saddens me. To me, the backpack showing up out of nowhere neatly packed with no mud or water damage blows up "accident" theory, along with a few other facts in the case (although I am still left wondering what is fact and what is fiction). Stalked and forced to press further into the jungle is where i am at right now. My condolences to the families."
"The parents of Kris walked the same trail and they said it was impossible to get lost on it. I'm thinking it was murder. Too many weird things happened. Why were their bras in the bag of Lisanne? Why did they call during the day around the same time each time? It almost seems like they called during someone's break time. Why did they never call at night? Why was the taxi driver that dropped them off at the trail found dead in a pool a month later in very suspicious circumstances? Why were the bones of Kris bleached? Why were there only found few of their bones? There are no big animals in that forest and other bodies that have been found there were never found in such a state according to experts. The woman that found the bag said it wasn't there the day before. Someone must of placed it there! and my bet is that it wasn't Lisanne and Kris. the killer was probably going back for the bag the next day and the bras are the souvenirs. This was definitely not an accident."
"EXACTLY! Another case of an American tourist found dead, Catherine Johannet, has caused the FBI to start an investigation. They believe that there might be a serial murder because Catherine Johannet's body was found with 30 to 40 miles of the these two dutch girls. PLUS, how did the jeans get zipped and folded on a high rock on the opposite side of where the girl took the pictures and bodies was found???"
"It looks like it but perhaps in a few years this will become a murder case ..the laywer of the parents think there was more and was unsatisfied and the OP said their taxi driver got killed one month later no ringing bells? many dirty fuckers in our world but why would you take risk and go to certain places where it can be dangerous especially when you are a girl cmon no girls should travel alone or only with girls unless your ronda roussey."
"Oh, it's VERY possible to get lost on the El Pianista, and I'm speaking from experience! I hiked this same trail and got lost just 3 weeks ago while on vacation in Costa Rica and Panama, after hearing about this case. Signs at the base next to the restaurant even say it's prohibited to hike unless for science purposes. You have to cross two streams, and halfway up the trail becomes practically nonexistent. Once I got to the top, about a 3 hour hike without seeing one person, I lost track of the trail and lost my mind within seconds, and began running downhill completely lost. All the vegetation made it impossible to walk at times, I had to climb, crawl and scoot downhill for Two hours before I eventually wandered into someone's property and yelled for help. Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that I had GPS which I used to guide me towards the direction of town, I'm not sure I would've escaped before nightfall. If they didn't have GPS, they probably lost track of direction completely and accidentally wandered off over the other side of the hill, which is nothing but isolated jungle. This case intrigued me and I decided I knew better than these girls and took a shot at adventure, but it was the most terrifying experience of my life. At one point I even leaned my hand against a tree, actually grabbing onto a Green Vine Snake (later found out it's harmless) but that's when I lost my mind completely, screaming and survival skills kicked in. I thought I was a goner, and I feel terrible for these girls. I don't think it was murder, they simply got lost like me and wandered to the river on the opposite side of the divide, it's isolated and not trails as you would imagine them. Thank God for cellphone GPS and portable batteries! ... Also, some things don't seem to add up, but now than likely I'd say I'm correct and this was simply Human vs. Nature, you have NO idea how terrifyingly easy it is to get lost in the jungle! That trail is also notorious in the area for the dangers, and not a popular tourist spot so they likely encountered nobody else.. Unlike the lost waterfall and volcano trails on the opposite side of Boquete."
"- this is a standard hiking trail. You talk as if this was a path where you need a machete and a compass to find your way. It´s a two hours standard hike like you find it everywhere on this world. There are videos about this trail and the parents also told that you cannot get lost on this trail
- someone deleted photo 509. There is no scenario in which the girls should have done it. Especially because it´s very likely the last day photo from April 1st where there murderer could be shown on
- the taxi driver of the girls was killed later (aka. "found drowned")
- the girls only called emergency once or twice a day. Nobody would do this to safe battery when you are lost in the jungle and night is 2 hours away. But you do this if you are kidnapped and cannot phone more often safely
- The bleached bone is nothing you find after only 2 months after death. Some people say that it´s because animals in the jungle. ... No. You find more of the corpse and you find more in one piece and not a few bones scattered and a foot in a shoe. This is extremely unlikely.
- The sudden appeareance of the bag with no water damage to the electronic devices although it heavily rained there and the bag shall have been in the water
- In 2017 after the Catherine Johannet case, the FBI said that local police and the government massively hinder investigations.. and so on ... Come on ... The question must be: Why do YOU jump straight to accident ? Concerning what i wrote, you must think like those Hot Fuzz Cops in that village. It is an accident because ... ... ... it must be."
"People do get lost. Sometimes fog can blanket the area and there's no visibility. A heavy rain can wash out trails. There can be confusion with game trails. [...]" -> irrelevant, because there was no rain until to April 5th. Everything was dry and the rivers were calm.
"Wouldn't you think it would be police incompetence that accidentally erased the photo? "
-> no. Because you need a computer for doing it and the fact that it´s the most important photo make it highly unlikely that it was just deleted by accident
"Why not just wipe the whole thing?"
-> to make it look like an accident. The last photo made by the girls was 509. The rest was made by the killer including the placing of the bag on the sandbank (the woman who found it said it wasn´t there the day before) to make it look like an accident
"The calls were made like clockwork to discipline battery use. Mind you, they probably did not leave with 100% charge. Also, why would the murderer allow them to hang onto their phones?"
-> When you make the first emergency call 2 hours before nightfall, you do not wait until next morning for the next one. This is no discipline, but stupid. Make so sense at all. Nobody would do this. And no SMS, no WhatsApp, no Email ? Everyone would do this in the hope that any message will go through. It´s obvious that they had very limited ability to do things.
-The bone was sun bleached. Jungle microclimates do strange things. If it were a murderer, then why only bleach 1 bone?
-> You simply think in a wrong way. "Why would" thinking is HotFuzz rubbish. Sun does not bleach a bone within 2 months. Not even in the jungle. Catherine Johannet was found without any bite of any animal. Again: This was an intentionally placed "proof" to make it look as if they were eaten by animals. What happened to the rest of the body isn´t known. And they were obviously killed somewhere else, not in the jungle.
-It's possible it's a high quality waterproof bag, and maybe Lisanne tucked it away pretty well. Again, why would a murderer just leave it for discovery?
-> no, because the model of the bag is known and it is not high quality water proof. And again this "Why would" rubbish. Did you ever hear that good murderers place false proofs to lead the investigations into wrong direction ?
I came to the conclusion that it was an accident because the photos show Kris with a bloody head injury. Lisanne's photos place them at a monkey bridge over rocks and moving water.
-> This makes no sense at all, because either they would have hiked more than 12 hours into the wrong direction or when they were at the monkey bridge near the mirador, the found proofs would have went upstream which is impossible.
-Taxi driver's death has no link to this case.
-> This is one possibility. The other is that he knew too much.
"It is known that locals regularly get injured/die there, as the bridges are dangerous."
-> no. They don´t die because of the bridges, they simply get lost and nobody knows what happened to them in that area. This is what the FBI found out after the Catherine Johannet case. Indigenes know everything there. It´s their hood and they have way better orientation than western guys. They don´t get lost because they fall from a bridge or lose their way. It´s the sum of not fitting things that lead me into the thinking that it was a murder. To me it´s obvious that somebody wants it to look like an accident."
"I've studied this case a great deal, and I think it's very possible that Kris and Lisanne didn't know that once you reach the summit you're supposed to turn around and go down the way you came up. The El Pianista trail does not end at the summit, and the girls didn't "venture off the main trail" or do anything that would have seemed reckless to them--this is what everybody on YouTube gets wrong. The girls stayed on the trail. (Also, you can see for yourself in the pictures that the trail wasn't a mud bowl the day of their disappearance.) The El Pianista trail goes up one side and continues on down the other side and after several days travel reaches an Indian town. Unless Kris and Lisanne had been specifically advised to turn around at the top by a Boquete local or by a website, it would not have been obvious that that's what they were supposed to do. They had no guide. There's not a great deal of information on El Pianista online, and there was probably less four years ago. Also, there was a language barrier at play--the ladies spoke Dutch while most of the stuff written or spoken about El Pianista would have been in Spanish or English. I believe they thought you're supposed to follow the trail down the other side of the mountain, and they probably also (reasoning by analogy) thought that it would take about as long to get down that side as it took them to get up the other side--about three hours. And it was about three hours after beginning their descent that they made their first distress calls. In fact, once it got late in the afternoon and they realised it would be dark soon, in their minds they had reached a point of no return: they knew they didn't have enough daylight to turn around, reach the summit again and go down the way they came up, and so they probably accelerated their pace downhill, hoping to reach the valley before dark, and sadly this made matters much worse. It's difficult to say, but they might not have even been truly lost when they made their first 9-11 calls; they may have gotten lost only later in the evening by travelling desperately in low light and darkness in an attempt to avoid spending the night in the jungle, perhaps leaving the trail to take "shortcuts."
"What always got me is the girls each called for help one time each on the first day and then gave up ? and didnt try again until morning ?? that makes no sense at all staying out there overnight."
"The parents obviously did NOT continue on down into the drainage beyond which most hikers stop. The trail gets steep, there are cross trails and game trails, all of which create a web of uncertainty as one turns around. AND... hiking backwards the way which they came looks differently. Ask any hiker. Looking back at the trail which you just came through... looks different... because you're seeing the area from the opposite angle. Combine that with cross trails... the girls probably got lost... even a map wouldn't have helped except a compass would have kept them in the know about which direction to hike toward their resort town."
"After reading multiple articles on this I want to share with you what most investigators even international ones believe most likely happened. After the two girls reached the peak of the mountain (seen at 3:50) at approximately 1 PM they started their journey back home. This hike was a round-trip so they did not just follow the path back they came from. However the picture at 5:00 was taken in the afternoon on the same day, the place you can see there as well as the one shown at 9:03 were identified by local tour guides as an unofficial path that only leads deeper into the jungle. It is important to notice that there are many paths made by the Indigenous Ngobe tribe leading away from the official path even locals and tour guides get regularly lost there and no signs are indicating which path is the right one. These paths are well known for been incredibly dangerous (narrow, steep ascents/descents, slippy mud track and dangerous rope bridges) and are even by the Indigenous tribe avoided at all costs. At this point it was already unlikely that they would meet another person there since every locals know that you are risking your live by entering these tracks. At 9 PM three hours after nightfall they made their first attempt to call emergency services which was however unsuccessful. After realizing that they have been lost they started to leave SOS markings of toilet paper along their way (they took pictures of them which you can find online) in the hope that somebody would find them. However they kept venturing further into the jungle only reducing their chances. The picture you can see at 7:00 was an improvised direction marker that pointed in the direction they where hiking. At some point they decided to follow the river downhill in the hope to find another village. You have to keep in mind that this river side has extreme descents and is very slippy. At some point along the way Kris slipped and received a lethal head injury (there was a photo on the camera taken by Lisanne that shows Kris head heavily bleeding however this photo was not published for privacy reasons)(Kris bones did not show any other injury then the head injury). Lisanne took her phone with her (that is the reason why no correct pin code was used after this point but she still made 77 unsuccessful attempts of calling emergency services from this phone). Lisanne left the corpse of her friend behind and kept looking for a way out. She apparently continued hiking for a couple more days and became really close to reaching the village Alto Romero. However she also slipped while trying to cross a rope bridge. Autopsy later revealed that she at least broke her ankle due to the fall. She made it back to the side of the river but was unable to continue the hike. She waited there for rescue but unfortunately starved to death (the picture shown at 5:20 was right next to the place where she waited for her death). The remains of both bodies where heavily decomposed due to the hot and humid climate of the jungle and the ten weeks that it took to find them. Eventually the rainy season started and the backpack drifted downriver and was eventually found. This story is by far the most likely one and believed by locals, Panamanian officials, dutch police and private investigators hired by the family. A crime is considered to be highly unlikely for the following reason: No local would hike on these trails since it is very easy to get lost and injury or even kill yourself. Neither their cloths nor remains indicate any fighting. They would not have been able to split up if they were kidnapped and Lisanne could not have photographed her friend if she was running from a murderer. And most importantly nothing was stolen all personal belongings like phones the camera passports and cash were found. You also have to keep in mind that in this area even experienced tour guides occasionally get lost."
"But what about the missing picture that was deleted?"
"How is that this only has 3 likes? oh right it doesn't have a theory about an aboriginal rapist creature from a "third world shithole"
"I think this sounds plausible. The only things that I wonder about is why, over the course the six days she was travelling solo, she made no attempt to either record herself with the camera saying goodbye or writing a final note. She must’ve carried the bag-pack for at least that long presuming the last photo wasn’t taken by a third party. What about the unidentified bone fragment? I think we can agree that there are some variables that aren’t solved here, and most likely never will."
"But there is a dog with them, and a dog never lost their path ,never so if girls confused to found right direction they may follow the dog .must be someone Rap them and killed, brutally"
"The dog knew his way home. It wasn’t their dog, so it makes sense that the dog could sense they were going further and further away, and wanted no parts of it. The dog wanted to go home to his family."
"If they took the picture and deleted it there would still be remnants of the file on the camera that police and tech teams could find and possibly view but they found that it wasn't deleted int he camera which means it was plugged into and external device, transferred and deleted on the other device."
"If that's the case what about the decomposing bodies of theirs? The date were so limited and can't decompose a body too quickly. Also jungle are more likely in healing particles which means the air of the jungle can speed uo the healing nor preserve wounds to be healed again."
"The thing here is that we just literally can't say that this girls just died by their own. And if either of them died and seeking for rescue why would they not come back? "
"The picture at 7:00 was taken 10 days after the first day, so it couldn´t be what you say. There are many things that have no sense, like there is clothes missing, that the soutiens (bras) were on the bag, and many things that say something worst happened."
"Organ traffic, could be. And they didn´t destroy the evidence because they wanted the family and police to know that they were dead, but they did it when they decided to, some weeks later. The indian woman that found the bag said that the day before it wasn´t there. The family and police searched the zone and found nothing, and suddenly weeks later, things are found. The killers did what they wanted and showed their things when they felt it was appropriate. They didn´t care about some cash, it was better to show it like there was no people involved so that they wouldn´t research, that is why they kept those things. About the phones, couldn´t access because of the pins."
"Well, the experts say that the bones don´t have any injury made of animal, not even microscopic. I don´t think they were animals, if they were kidnapped and killed at some place, they later put the bones they wanted in the place where they were found. No skulls were found, and experts in the case also say that the animals there don´t eat skulls. Isn´t it strange (and terrifying) that there was found a shoe with the foot in it???? it is soooo strange!!! what would have happened to her?? What about the skin of the foot, the muscles? they only found the foot bones. Creepy! Or maybe the guide, showing to the tourists to come in the future that the forest is dangerous and you need a guide to see it, or may be as a way or revenge, who knows. NO, there weren´t marks on the bones or the clothing. Not all the clothing was found. It´s all really strange. But nature doesn´t act that way. There would be the rests of the bodies and all the things and clothes ripped and bloody, all together if only nature had acted."
"Instead of a larger animal, the flesh could have been destroyed by fungi, maggots, or other small insects/bacteria. That would explain why there were no cut marks."
"One of the phones run out of battery. Even though that, it is strange that at that point both girls didn´t know the pin of both telephones. And if one of them was dying, she would have given the pin to her friend. I believe that the person that was trying to use the phone and found out it had a pin, was another person, not one of the girls, I believe at that point both of them were dead, killed."
"I'm laughing really hard at some of these comments. As someone who collects bones, you're all actually ridiculous if you think it takes 12 YEARS for a body to decompose lmfao. Even if there wasn't an animal, there are so many bugs. How do you think taxidermy artists clean their bodies so quickly? With beetles. Its entirely possible that with the heat, humidity, and bugs in the area that the girls bodies would be stripped of flesh weeks after death. Feet are found in shoes all over the world. This isn't specific to this case. Some college students found a foot in a shoe just a few years ago in my tiny town in canada. And they find them in BC regularly. The "unidentified" bone fragments were either too small to test, contaminated and therefore gave inconclusive results, or were probably not human bones that were either just in the area, it's a jungle, it's full of dead things. It's really not as much of a mystery as y'all are trying to force it to be. As for what I think happened with the missing picture, it's pretty clear that the cops either accidentally deleted it or that the computer glitched and deleted it. It wasn't deleted from the phone, so you're trying to tell me that you think a killer let them call emergency services for 8 days, waited for them to die naturally, then stole one of the 2 phones, took it all the way home, deleted one picture but didn't look at the rest of them, and then brought it all the way back to put it back in the backpack? None of you see how silly that is?"
"No, they were not sun-bleached. Experts examined them and concluded that the bleaching was chemically induced. The name of the chemical has escaped me, but I believe it was a chemical that the drug cartels often used for drug processing."
"The fatal injury of K. might have been so abrupt that L. didn't have time to ask for the pin. Or she just didn't realise she needed it and wanted to be by her friends side on her last moments and in panic, didn't think of asking her friends pin - IF K. wasn't unconscious after the blow to the head. I've no take on the deleted picture since many say it was deleted from an outer source. As for the bodies i believe you can fully decompose in the jungle in the given time because of maggots and other scavengers in addition to the heat and humidity. The unidentified bone could've been L.'s last attempt of survival - eating something she found in the jungle already dead. A food related poisoning or something like that which could've caused her immense pain or even unconsciousness cant be ruled out in my book. But as I said this video, this comment and this comment section is the only source material i have and i intend not to go deeper. My main point is tho that L didnt initially know her friends PIN code, but could've know the pass code or something else that allows access to phones these days. We rarely remember that there is a PIN code requirement in today's world so its completely plausible for the girls to know each others pass codes but not PIN codes. The last photo might be an attempt to measure a height of a steep cliff, which could've been the last fatal attempt to press forward and ended L.'s life as she decided to descend the cliff. Plants do go for the sun and from second glance it looks like some of the plants are facing the cameras way which would mean it is a cliff of sorts. Very interesting story, but aside from the foot i don't believe this to be a third party "accident". If you know anything about insects could you answer that if some insects decided to stay away from the shoe because of the materials used in shoes? Undoubtedly the girls were not prepared to get lost and weren't prepared for the journey they intended to traverse. The dog could've ran away if she was following them and they simply didn't notice she was gone until too late- or they could've yelled for help and the dog got scared and ran away. A simple sprained ankle or something could have prevented them to chase the dog home. The dog obviously followed her own scent home since dogs have a much better sense of smell than humans. Maybe the girls tried to follow the dog and got deeper into the jungle because of that. I don't think the dog was lost at any point but decided to head home since her area of knowledge was at an end and she didn't want to risk her own life following the two girls who didn't even speak her language properly. Just some speculation. And hey, the missing clothing pieces could indicate that the girls were trying to make bandages or some sort of support structure for a broken leg, but ditched said clothing pieces because the bandages they made from them were too bloody or nonfunctional. Bloody or ripped rags can be hard to find in the jungle or can be consumed by insects, no?"
"The Daily Beast has leaked information about this case and mentions a couple of things that wouldn't fully fit in:
-The items in the found rucksack—including two cell phones and a camera, both in good condition—were covered with fingerprints that didn’t belong to the Dutch hikers; but no prints were ever taken in the case for comparison.
How was this possible if the girls had an accident and the bag was handed in to police unopened?
-The accident hypothesis contends that the victims’ inexpensive nylon backpack spent six weeks awash in the nearby Serpent River—floating around in the same stretch of water that supposedly reduced the victims to tiny fragments, and with the phones and camera inside it all that time. Forensics consultant and wilderness instructor Weil says a lightly built, civilian pack of that kind would likely have become “saturated within minutes” of falling in the river, and the “electronics inside it fried.” Could the rucksack have reached the site near the settlement of Alto Romero some other way, instead of taking a month and a half to winds through the Serpent’s rapids? This whole case and the 90-something photos in the dark have given me the creeps! Also strange: they wore tank tops and short trousers, which seems totally inadequate for a jungle walk. Yet in the backpack two bras were found?? Who brings them along for a short hike and if they wore them; why would they have taken them off?? Also, Kris' shorts were found neatly folded on a rock near the river; how come it ended up there and then folded? Seems like it was placed there. Horrible those girls must have been so frightened.. And they started calling 911 (or attempting to) in the afternoon of day 1 so they must have been frightened for a very long time also.
-And specialists who did the autopsy said or leaked to the Daily Beast that the bone fragments showed no damage; no signs of animal teeth or claws, no damage from rocks. Kris' pelvic bone also seemed bleached which they don't normally see this quick; in fact an American man had laid dead in the same jungle for two years and even his bones weren't bleached yet; instead they see this often when drugs cartel members use a chemical to help decompose the body rapidly. How come only these bones and none other were found back, if their whole bodies had at some point been in the river?"
"And if this was the only case there, but there are around 25 unsolved murders in that region alone. The American girl Catherine Johannet who walked not too far from this area alone and was murdered on her way, and there are many other cases. I just cannot believe that these girls would leave the clearly defined El Pianista trail. They could even see a village below while they reached the summit / view point. Dressed the way they were and poorly equipped, I can't believe they just wandered off into the jungle. You need to make a true deviation from the main road for that. Also, they had already called 911 before the dog returned home; why wouldn't they have followed the dog back home once it turned around? Also the photos on trail were happy selfies but the ones showing Kris off trail don't look relaxed at all. Police said they didn't see distress on their faces but I can see it and they do seem worried there."
"I don't believe animals or the river water tore their bodies apart and left these few bones behind. Where are their other remains? If the river carried them they would have been found by now. And if animals tore them apart, there would have been bite marks or claw marks or anything like that visible under the microscope, and the people doing the autopsy revealed there were none either. Totally clean and without marked. Even rocks in the river would have left a mark. They also stated that the bleaching of the pelvis bone indeed was not natural, not this quick, and not in those weather conditions at the time. But the type of chemicals used to help a body decompose quickly would in fact create this effect on the bone, and they said it is an often used method there :( That would also explain why there were so few remnants found back. Yeh I watched the Dutch coverage on this too (am dutch) but unfortunately mainstream media has not been digging too deep and stuck mostly to the Accident theory.... I also feel the strangely posed photos off trail (and Kris' distorted facial expressions) may indicate someone else told them to make those photos. Knowing full well the area and perhaps having a plan to stage the whole thing as an exploring trip gone wrong all along, using their camera as the evidence."
"This one is particularly haunting.. Maybe the thought of them being alive and alone in the wilderness for so long, the fear they will have had, the disturbing 80-something black photos (I mean why not photograph your trail during the day time and stay put at night when it is most dangerous to walk around?). They won't have had much experience with survival or scouting I bet, being uni girls in the arts direction and Holland is generally flat and safe often urban countryside. And then the thought of them being stalked by someone, one having photographed a bloody back of the head of the other, all the attempts to reach 911.. Its Blair Witch Project all over again but now for real. Unless they found the river soon for drinking water at least, she may indeed have been very disorientated and even hallucinating, BUT... why then the deliberate signs that are seen on some photos as late as 8 days in? They seem done by someone with a clear strategy? If she tried to find her way in the dark, why would you walk in hostile foreign terrain in the pitch black? With all the risks of falling and injury? Maybe she was too afraid to sit down due to snakes and such? Little sleep for more than 8 days can also make you hallucinate. No idea how they would have slept, with critters everywhere and no extra clothes for protection or anything to cover up :( I still think that the most logical explanation is that someone followed them took them and set these photos and signs up himself, to make it look like they wandered in the jungle all this time, succumbed to injuries and the elements etc and then they (dry!) belongings washed onto the river shore. What a nightmare. I couldn't believe someone would do these things to another (innocent) human being. I don't want to be disrespectful but the murder of the two dutch girls are more haunting to me, probably because of the photos, their failed emergency calls and the fact one of them passed away earlier and the other one had to go through absolute and utter horror."
"That photo of Kris' head was not supposed to be released, the parents didn't want it, but a Dutch media program accidentally showed them, and people screenshot it. In the full photo you also see blood on her temple and skin, but they cut that part off of the online versions. But its clearly her hair. Not all the pictures have been released and even the girls family have said in Dutch programs to have been very frustrated with the course of investigation. Finger prints haven't been checked, evidence has been contaminated, and who knows what other things went wrong. Local Panamanian journalists have criticized these things btw. If they truly don't have evidence of foul play then of course, there is no case. But like I said, even over there, there is doubt, as some reports do class it a homicide case. But that doesn't mean it necessarily is a cover up. I wouldn't know. But I wouldn't exclude it based on your logical rationalization either because it certainly wouldn't be the first cover up (despite what you deem logical about that or not). Nobody knows for sure so it's all futile subjective views we're testing here. Take all factors into consideration and followed this case for years (being Dutch myself). Probably have taken much more into consideration than you, by the look of it. They were in that jungle at least 10 whole days and had the sharpness of mind to make signalling signs by day 8: pieces of plastic stuck to two twigs, bubble gum wrappers, a mirror and toilet paper strategically placed. They were thinking of ways to get out. They did call and very strategically too, at very set times of the day, or they looked for cell phone reception at very strict times of the day. All the authorities agree on the fact they they kept their head together, looking for ways out. They even followed the river downstream which normally is a way to civilisation and villages, only this time it was a death trap, leading down steeply where there are no villages and making it very hard to climb back up again. So if they were alone, making signs, making pictures of signs and they had a working digital camera with battery life, then why not also make a video message? Explaining the sticks. Explaining why they put the mirror there (signalling probably)? It makes no sense to anyone thinking straight. because if they were so freaked out for 10 days straight that they couldn't think of making a message, then why all the signs and the wrappers? Your comment makes zero sense, these two were university students and not only running around like mindless chickens, freakish as their hellhole situation was and we have the proof of that."
"As an avid hiker who hikes and camps a lot of remote wilderness areas it's hard to believe how many people i meet 30-30 miles out who have almost no gear, no map, no compass, and no idea how to use any even if they had them. They will stop and ask for directions on remote trails and I always think of how easy it would be for one of them to make their way down a game trail or an offshoot and end up lost with night closing in. I feel so bad for these women it would be terrifying to be in their shoes. The wilderness is dangerous and you should always do your research and go prepared. Always over prepare."
"What is the scariest possible thought for me is that it is likely that at the time of the last photos it was just Lussane remaining,and also that they were taking very close together. Imagine she was being hunted and couldn't see and was taking pictures to see what was in the bushes if she heard noises coming from them. Imagine waiting to see that flash not knowing what horror it is about to reveal among the dark forest."
"It seems more likely it was used to locate Kris. But what happened for her to fall during the night? You'd expect they had plenty of time to choose a rather safe spot to spend their nights at. What made Kris walk in the dark and fall off a ravine? It doesn't seem likely they kept walking through the night. They had no constant light source. Did Kris wander off to relieve herself? It's very likely they were drinking river water thus heavily striken by diarrhea at this point. Either that's what happened or a predator must have scared them and made them wander off until one fell. One can only imagine the panic these girls were facing. :( Awful."
-"If it is a recreation of what happened that I was but who made the photos the being or the guy? And at the end you see something that pulls it: / "
-"No, yes, "the mountain" cut off her foot and take the pelvic bone to the other side and leave their bags with their underwear and all along the river... damn mountain."
-"There was a similar case of two French tourists in the jungle in Salta! Argentina. There is a documentary. https://www.france24.com/en/20110731-argentina-two-french-female-tourists-found-shot-dead-northern-salta-province
Mimy K veganeg wrote below a newspaper article about a false anonymous alarm about supposedly found skeletons of the girls
"Because they have not looked for this place ... they are waiting for all the evidence to be destroyed or to extract more money when at the same time without conscience they are deceiving these desperate parents for their daughters. We say we are Christians but here I only see ambition and evil ... this is not correct ... Of course they do not know who these corpses are but how they will know if they are not wanted. I think they want to give the impression that this is a good safe place to attract more people who will stay for aya ... I hope God punishes them ... I do not know what is going on but when I read all the things that and they still go through aya ... and a lot of reason to be alarmed ... this region is very dangerous ... and this can not continue like that ... since very soon the world will see us as savages and people without value ... without shame, ... without honor ... only starving for money and nothing else .. These parents have to find their daughters ... one way or another and I do not know what they said. .but it is hard to imagine that if they were honest with them ... they would only want to look in a place and not where they could be ... I do not think so for a moment ... I see they are asking money ... they say they need 95,000 .00 to keep looking ... Ave Maria purisima this is a scandal of the first category .... We must ask God to bless those families and d We have to demand that the right thing be done ... Look, they have been more than a month and these damned have not done anything to see how they extract these cadavers ...."
Live 4 This wrote: "Common sense tells me foul play was involved. What was it a couple hours into the hike they are already calling 911? My theory is someone was stalking them from the get go. Two white young girls in a country like Panama a third world country. You don’t have to be a nuclear physicist to figure this story out. The video did say the jungle was super dense and next to impossible to “get off the path” but yet somehow they did get “off the path” now why would two girls with very minimal gear...1 backpack?!?!? Go “off the path” well quite simple they were being stalked. If the path has two ways forward and back. Which direction do you go if your being “chased” get off the path. Now I’m no expert in hiking but two hours from their starting point you will not be that far out. Why were they calling for help??? No photos taken after that point...8 days later 90 photos between 1am - 4am at night with the flash on...every two minutes. Why would you hike at night? The only resonable answer was the one girl had no choice she “escaped captivity” my next question would be if you were to escape captivity what would be the best time during the day??? Or at night?? We don’t know the order of the photos so I’m assuming one girl was taking the photos at night the other was still held or dead injury to the head we just don’t know. We do know pictures were takin showing head injury on red head girl and it was at night time. Again why would someone move around a dangerous jungle/mountain at night instead of finding a spot and camp at. They or one of the girls was on the run and wanted to put as much distance as she could from where she was at “held captive” before day time. Also why did no photos get taken after day 1 two hours into the hike. They did not have time to take photos were in danger and or did not have access to camera because they were held captive. What really makes me suggest foul play is their backpack was left behind. Say they did fall or have an injury or “died” why would their backpack be left on a rock with bras sunglasses and other shit? Shorts neatly folded up? What did they do strip down because it was too hot? NO. Let’s go over the animal/jungle ate them scenario. Normally when this happens bones won’t be too far from the initial scene of the death. The bones were pretty spread out and still a lot of bones and other parts missing. No animals chews human skulls that I can think of. Would an animal burry it or hide it? NO but a human would. Could these two girls survive what 8-9 days In a very dangerous jungle/mountain with minimal gear + supplies. I highly doubt it. No camping gear. Nothing. They did not use the phone for the entire time they were missing someone kept entering incorrect PIN number last couple of days. Why was the backpack recovered not on their persons when they died? Is it possible that their captive kept them alive for those 8 days feeding them/her scraps and some water. Yes of course. Does this also make sense why no photos were taken for 8 days. Yes of course. Sorry to say guys but from what I’m seeing and trying to decipher. They were stalked from the get go or someone hostile “randomly” encountered them “on the path” foul play is definitely involved here. Put yourself in their shoes why would they do things that they did. Doesn’t make sense."
F. González wrote on May 28th 2019: "I'm from Panama and I've been obsessed with the case in recent months. I believed the official version at that time, but then I began to ask myself questions that I could not solve with the official version. I came to the conclusion that the girls started walking based on specific moments beyond the Mirador. They decided to walk another hour, then retrace their steps and go down from the Mirador to Boquete the rest of the time.
Example:
1:00 PM - Mirador.
1:15 PM to 2:15 PM - Path beyond the Mirador.
2:15 PM to 3:15 PM - Return to the Mirador.
3:15 PM to 5:15 PM - Path Mirador to Boquete.
The minutes can change because we do not know what time they started walking towards the Mirador. But walking this way would have left them off the Path with the minimum amount of light needed. The key zone is 1 hour beyond the Mirador. Clearly something happened in that area. Then I started searching the area on Google Maps, but it did not look good. So I went to the map application on my iPad and had no doubts: there are MANY areas without trees beyond the Mirador. Too much land without trees, how is it that if you get lost you do not stay in the open area without trees? If the helicopters pass, it would be very easy to locate him. It's strange. Even if you see one of these areas, the path suddenly bifurcates into two paths and one of those (the one on the left) goes as far as what looks like the roof of a house in the middle of nowhere and if you keep going through the from the right to see that there is another roof later. Why did nobody go to investigate those areas where those houses are? The parents of Kris made the tour and recently they uploaded it with subtitles in English and repeated again and again: you can not get lost in this path, you have a path marked by the passage of people in front and the other behind. But I think they did not get where the roads are divided. The person who did this is very intelligent up to a point, because it was not 100% effective. He knows perfectly in which zones people live and planted all the clues where he knew that someone would find them (you only have to see the Apple maps app and compare: where they found something there were always one or two houses at 1 or 2 km or less) . The person who did this knows how to move through the jungle at night. In a casual way, you can see that they were never searched in the area that should be searched. They hid many things, everything was manipulated in an irresponsible way. The other key area is the monkey bridge where the photos were taken at night. Whatever it is, the photos seem taken by someone who crawls and can only take them a few feet off the ground. In a video of a local television station, the director of the Spanish school (which is Dutch) says that the girls had no plans to pay for a guide ... what does a guide do on the morning of April 2 saying that the Girls had told you to guide them to go to the Pianist? It's strange. Why did the witnesses say they saw them go up at 4:00 PM to the path ... when they actually walked by in the morning hours? Why did they say they saw them in the afternoon when reality was before 10: 40-45 AM? someone told them to give that information? or was it arbitrary just to take advantage and go on television? Too many things against these girls. I need the truth. Years later a Colombian tourist got lost alone and a farmer managed to find her. She spent one night on the trail. Ironic, no? Something happened to the girls. They took the picture of the one who attacked them, forced them to run through the jungle. Probably they were hurt, they stalked them until their mobile phones ran out of batteries / or until they could not put up resistance and then they did the most horrible thing with them. They deleted the 509 photo, the only evidence and the rest was taking parts ... mount the tracks, make the circus of the photos at night and go unpunished. To all those who feel that they want to give justice to these girls: think about it, check everything and spread the words.
Juan replied: "Muchas gracias, amigo! It is my understanding the Panamese government didn't want to hurt Boquete as an international tourist destination and never did any police investigation. Witnesses could step forward voluntarily. That is very bad for the timeline and many conflicting statements. I guess they wanted that.. It's pretty ludicrous to use the times on the camera as a timeline... the first photo at the beginning of the hike was shot at 17:11, camera time. Yet then they suddenly assumed: "we should count down 6 hours, cause the girls entered the camera time in the Netherlands where it is six hours later".. Yeah, but they also listed the year as 2013... it's highly debatable to rely on these crazy camera times... cross checking with telephone data was almost impossible since there are no logs for telephones connecting to masts in Panama at that time... "yeah but then the sunlight at the pictures is our exact guide to prove our recalculated camera times are correct".. It can very well be they returned to the Mirador... Image 500, of Lisanne with thumbs up and cloudy skies could be a souvenir of returning to the top... she looks way more fatigued and different there.. but this means, they doctored or cooked the memory card.. And you are very right, it's not a jungle, it all resembles a European forest, more or less, and especially the paddocks beyond the mirador.. they look like the Netherlands.. cows, in fields with barbed wire... if the girls only got lost, then this must have been giving them peace... these meadows are a good place to stay the night, or hide.. and yeah, if they were serious about the rescues, then I'd stand in the middle of an open meadow... but ok, there is only one path, so it all points to one incident after which Kris and Lisanne became incapacitated.. There is no viable scenario in which there is no foul play and they stay alive, in such a non threatening open peaceful environment.. with plenty of water, which due to the velocity and altitude is free of bacteria.... it is my guess they met the wrong people... also suspicious, all finds where done near the village of Alto Romero, of sixty people near the monkey bridges, where the guide has his finca.. and the Ngobe Bugle woman brought him the backpack she found, and then he was key in finding the shoe and so on.. Yes it is a shame no police work was ever done.. they should have done some house searched in Alto Romero, near the cable bridges... I agree, the person who is responsible for this all, did enough... the Dutch forensics institute didn't dare to raise questions, accepted anything coming from the Panamese authorities... while there were 37 different fingerprints on the backpack and the photo metadata were corrupt, as I have showcased.. So it was no criminal mastermind, the responsible person... but it was effective... the parents would have always returned if nothing was ever found... but the strategic dropping of the backpack and very few remains, made them go away rather quickly... And these night pictures remain bizarre yes... no conclusive reason why they were taken over a period of three hours.. and who took them... also the phone logs indicate at April 11th the phone of Lisanne was turned on one hour with a fully lit screen... impossible, if they only got lost.. Yeah the conflicting witnesses are a direct result, of no police work being done... otherwise, first thing you do, is interview as many people as possible in the first 48 hours, and then point out conflicting statements and ask more questions... it is no use, even a week later people cannot remember an exact day or date...
F. González replied: "Yes, the concealment was given to not affect tourism in Boquete and in addition to that the girls disappear at the worst possible time because we were technically a month away from the presidential elections ... in the press and others, the great focus of attention was on that. After the elections passed, the entire search in May and June was done under a transitional government. All these factors influenced it one way or another. Betzaida Pitty, the prosecutor in charge, was replaced in January 2015 (she was 1 year and a half as senior prosecutor). His successor was in charge of closing the case and did nothing, except that search for rescuers from the Netherlands in January 2015. The hours are interesting. Already with your analysis I will not be so close to them. I had not stopped to think about the possibility that they have returned to the Mirador ... I will think about that. [..] I do not see the Ngobes as protagonists of this, but I could believe that they can be influenced to do certain things (I say it as a person who has seen them on the street)."
Juan replied: "I watched the Answers for Kris video and it has been the most helpful for me to be present on the site to date. The thing about the prints in the backpack and belongings seems to me something unforgivable. There is a "screenshot" in the timeline of the phones, did you know what appeared in that capture? I have not found anything. I do not know if there was intervention, but I find it strange that there is not even a voice note documenting what happens. Recently on the FB of another guide I have seen pictures of tourists walking on the monkey bridge FOR THE FIRST TIME without any type of prevention or anything ... That scenario of falling into the river also seems very strange to me. Like removing the brassieres and the fragmentation of the bodies. In the pictures, if you notice, Lisanne has a very particular way of taking pictures. Tends to locate the focus of attention in the middle of the photograph or on the right / left side. In the photos that Kris takes, it follows more or less almost the same pattern. The photos of the night do not respect any of that and the moonlight was moderately visible. Even if the lighting is graduated, the silhouette of the trees can be intuited. They were not in complete darkness. Those photos would make more sense on day 1, when it was a new moon."
F. González replied: "The scene of the girls' room was violated in all possible ways: from the imprudent entry of them, to the fact that rescue members entered shortly afterwards (without a police or judicial presence). We are talking about that in the room there were members of SINAPROC (rescue unit), F., E., probably the owner of the hostel and who knows who else. In Panama this year will be a documentary about the famous cannibal Indians, I do not know if you read that theory ... which is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in this country. But for better or for worse, the names of Kris and Lisanne will come out again on local television because of that. An important fact is that there was a private search block that no guide wanted to support. That kind of thing gives me a bad spine. Would I walk the path of The Pianist? Yes, but not with less than 7 people in the group. I'll take a break about the case, but I'll be back. Do not let it be forgotten. Thank you for your words, at least it is the first scenario that I have completed after months."
Juan replied: "The Answers for Kris video is excellent. Just like a couple of TVN-2 videos. There is a guide, Laureano in the Answers for Kris video, at minute 5:18. They seem to not like each other. Laureano does a great way of presenting in the TVN-2 videos. [..] I find it very peculiar, on photo 499, at the Pianista summit, Lisanne looks like a giant. Very big, with way too much panorama to the left of her... looks like a photoshop to me. The night pictures are very mysterious. Looks almost as if a Ngobe found the camera and then clicked 80 times in three hours.. the purpose escapes me... the flash is by the way not strong enough to catch attention.... plus the camera only flashed like in 10% of the times, while I tested it and it flashed 80% of the time.. Using their voice, screaming seems a better way to attract attention... and yeah you could use the LCD screen of the camera as a night light, to walk.. to see a little bit.. but yeah I don't have a clue why these pictures were taken... and no I do not know what appears in the screen shot of the phone, the police report talks about. But there is an instruction video here on YouTube about unlocking an iPhone 4, the one Kris had... you have to follow many detailed steps, to unlock the phone without knowing the code or password.. and the last step is taking a screenshot... before you can enter it... so maybe the perpetrator did it to be able to unlock the phone. [..] Indeed there are even EPA press photography pictures of the room, by a Panamese journalist... everybody was there, Sinaproc turned all the clothes upside down... and projected pictures. Yes I read about the Indian conejos. I just find it sad Kris and Lisanne underestimated the whole operation... it isn't a pleasant day hike in city park... if you encounter the wrong person with a machete on the path, you have no defense. The trail to the Lost Waterfalls seems a better, safer choice... or then, just remain lazy, the one week you need to wait. They even wanted to climb volcan Baru with F., 3500 metres.. Walking eight hours in the dark? Seems very ambitious. Also Lisanne complained to the lady they stayed with, she had asthma, or bronchitis, throat ache. Feeling ill, the night before April 1st, and then climb to 2000 metres, also with a volleyball injury on her leg? Maybe Lisanne felt pressured, cause Kris wanted to do things... maybe that is why after the summit they got into an argument... if you zoom in on the last picture, 508, of Kris standing on the rock in the quebrada, also in the Answers for Kris video... you see she is without a smile, looks annoyed... maybe they quarreled about, returning home, or Kris maybe thinking they can make a full circle to Boquete this way without walking the same path twice... who knows..."
Ricky wrote early May 2019: "If they put £250,000 for each skull, £50,000 for clothing and bones ,£500,000 for the arrest and conviction of these murderers, they would probably find answers. Or better still; send me over for free. I was a criminal for 30 years -nothing gets past me. I know when people lie just by looking at them when I ask them questions. I see it in them before I've even asked - I would take the tour guide and his relative, sit them down. I would also question the women where they was staying - the French couple who heard them screaming - the security guard who the French couple reported the screams to and definitely the young man in the video who helped look for their remains; he's got guilty written all over his face. This was no accident, nothing adds up, their phones being used between 10:00 and 10:30 AM, then in between 13:00 and 13:30 PM - why? Because this is the time the murderer was going to work in the morning and then coming back to his cabin in the afternoon, or its when the murderer was taking other people on up there on a tour. The taxi driver got found dead, he was the Last Person to see them, so they say. Did the police get evidence it was him? Did the police set it up to look like an accident because of tourism, then kill the taxi driver because he murdered them and caused them a lot of hassle? Or was he killed because he knew the murderer because he dropped the girls off with him and he was going to go to the police and claim the $30.000 reward? There's a taxi boat that takes people there twice a day - is this the taxi driver they're going on about? Is this the same time as their phones were turned on and off trying to ring 112/ 911 when he was dropping people off there? One of their phones got through to 112 or 911 for a couple of seconds but then lost its signal - it didn't lose its signal; it was put down and he panicked. Is the young man who got arrested for the American woman's murder in Panama [Catherine Johannet], of who the FBI said there's a link with the murder and these 2 girls, the same young man who was in the search party who found some of there remains in the video? There are a good few things that don't add up an I would investigate all these things the police never did. The police fucked up big time an from a ex criminals point of view, these 2 where murdered and it's been covered up to make it look like they where alive longer than they really were. Also I can see peoples faces in their pictures in the background of men in the Forrest but I know our eyes play tricks on us. To the man who made this video - send me your email and I'll send you close up shots of what I can see. Great video by the way, thanks for uploading it."
Juan replied: "Thank you for your elaborate answer! Sounds like a great idea, if you'd put your boots in the ground in Boquete and start researching and interviewing.. You have to take in account, the local police did nothing. A Dutch retired military policeman lives in Boquete and he said, they don't have the knowledge to investigate anything. They just might only fake it.. they only can issue speeding tickets and then take a bribe, buying them off.. So there was never any investigation, that was bad for tourism... And I totally subscribe to the idea of the murderer being on a lunch break on his job, the phones are switched on with military precision.. no one in his right mind believes the girls did that, in distress.. Excellent idea, a lot of money will make the people talk... In a proper investigation, you know if people get nervous or suspicious, they are going to move and talk and that is when you can expose them.. The Dutch forensics institute actually didn't even question the many suspicious things.. Like, 37 different finger prints on the backpack, the photo data they never investigated.. the girls were totally let down by everyone... and the murderers must be laughing, knowing they got away with it all.."
SwissMarksman replied in April 2019; "It's my opinion that it's not at all surprising that people disappear and die in wilderness areas. Nature's not the comforting mother figure from hippy folklore but a cruel femme fatale who has no regard or mercy for humans. Consider the types of people that visit these parks:
1) People inexperienced with camping, bushcraft, or even navigating off-trail
2) Suicidal, and/or transient people
3) Parents who think that forests, deserts, and mountains are like playgrounds from Disney movies
4) People who have rarely seen more than two trees near each other
5) People who don't understand weather can change quickly
6) The largely unprepared
Even experienced hikers can make mistakes. Sometimes the only real difference between coming home safely and vanishing is the placement of a single foot step. A rainstorm can turn a path or canyon into a river. There dangerous animals (not talking about Cougars/ Mountain Lions/ Jaguars) But snakes & even little bugs can cause issue if they bite you. All of these are more logical conclusions than some Guide that is/was a creep. No, it's not surprising that people vanish in national parks. It's surprising more don't. Because this is not some nice Eurohill in Switzerland/ Austria/ Tirol etc. [..] At end, it's hard to imagine what these girls went trough & suffered. Maybe they didn't even think about how dangerous it could get (on other hand, they probably didn't consider to get ever lost). Should be a reminder that making stuff like this can turn bad really fast. FYI there are people that went lost & never got found again in Switzerland. (even an US Air Force plane back in the 40's). [..] You'd think that they wouldn't make these type of decisions, because they're experienced hikers. But who am I to judge? (I got that from the internet anyway). They made a decision, took some (wrong) hints & it went downwards after that."
Juan replied: "But then again... Boquete is called the Switzerland of Panama.. The Pianista forest isn't a jungle, it more or less resembles a European forest.. only sometimes a bit more exotic. But no predators, or snake danger. Yet you are right, the bugs usually kill you.. Yet then again, a local Ngobe Indian murdered Catherine Johannet there, and there was talk of an American serial killer.. But surely, Kris and Lisanne very much underestimated the hike. It wasn't a pleasant afternoon trip, it's a climb to high altitude, encountering farmers with machetes who drive their cattle there. Flash floods, usually at night, can turn the creeks into wild rivers... They weren't prepared, perhaps tricked by Lonely Planet who described it as a walk in the park. They didn't take any food, nor a lot of water.. and carried no knife, or whistle. [..] It might not have helped the girls are Dutch. Here it’s so crowded, you can never get lost. In Switzerland, with its magnificent nature, you’d be more careful, in the mountains and valleys. They just had that Dutch mindset. They expected everything to be well organised, like the volunteer work and the week delay upset them. I bet they expected something like coloured poles everywhere. The landlady said, Lisanne was so tired and asthmatic, with a sore throat the night before.. she never expected them to go on a hike. Might have been a last minute decision, the batteries of their phones were already 50% empty at the start of the hike. [..] They were very much city girls. It’s just, Kris and her parents and brother traveled through Peru and the Andes a couple of weeks. Bet she initiated it. Lisannes parents are very cautious, they only went to the Schwarzwald once in Germany. But yeah it’s easy to judge from my arm chair. So many unknown factors. But it seems like, the day knew a lot of debate. In the morning, if Lisanne was fit to go. They even went to a pharmacy to buy throat medicine still.. And the pictures after the summit, far apart, with gloomier faces of Kris seem to hint at a possible argument about returning, or walking on.. And then the mood changed, with Kris possibly wanting to press on and Lisanne wanting to go home. But that’s speculation on my part. We hardly know anything. Apart from, they somewhat underestimated their expedition. And Lisanne not feeling well, for a longer time already."
Robert Evans wrote on May 29th 2019: "I watched the other video of the path the parents walked, it's a long trek, and it would be hard to get disorientated as you could just follow it back. Part of me thinks they went 'off piste' and got lost/ injured. The other part thinks a third party was involved. It just seems a strange case. Another point - they could have had panicked thoughts that they went too far out from camp and then completely went the wrong way home in a rush? I feel awful for the parents, I can see the pain etched in the mothers face.
Juan replied: "Yes I have much empathy for Roelie Kremers, the mother. Heartbreaking to see her. She made an altar for Kris at her home. Hans is more rational and trustworthy. It is peculiar they befriended F., whose motives remain suspicious, to me at least. Although maybe it was intentional, to see what he had to offer. Although in that particular video he tells Roelie not to explore a steep third path on the Pianista summit. Yeah it remains a puzzle Robert.... The mother feels, they always would have stayed on the path, even when the night fell. Then they'd just remain on the path, wait till it gets light and then rush home going uphill in daylight. It's the crucial bottleneck question.. Were they arguing, did Kris feel they could walk back to Boquete in a circle and not walk the same stretch twice, which is a nuisance to Dutch hikers? Or did they panic, did someone get injured? Or was there a need to run from bad people? Or was everything over quickly, within a few minutes? We just don't have a clue.. Indeed, when you panic and are stressed, then you can fail to do elementary things. But then again, this was so obvious.... There is one path, and you need to go uphill to walk back. Then you don't know if maybe the guide mentioned, Alto Romero, his village was close to the summit (9 kilometers). Did he invite them there? Or did they just met the wrong men there, far from home and didn't stand a chance? Anyway, in case of no foul play, then it is very hard to come up with a logical explanation. An injury or accident is always possible, but then again, for the both of them to get incapacitated... And you can panic for hours, but if you survive till the next morning, then your common sense will return. And it is only one path.. Ok, you can enter a paddock, a meadow and go look for a farm house in case of an emergency. It was no jungle, it is a forest.. with cows and fields just like the Netherlands. It's no Amazone rain forest, at all.. Also, the girls deserve some credit. Some people think just everyone falls down the mountain. And then again, if you manage to get lost on the one path, you can always leave piles of rocks as markers, to mark where you have been. Or carve trees. It is so annoying, you cannot get any answer to these questions. Everything remains possible. Yet if you ask me, a crime scenario sounds more logical."
Matteo wrote on October 20th, 2014: "If there really was a search party in the terrain at night of April 8th, as you say, that would adequately explain the 90 pictures, I believe. However these are not described in detail. Point is: what happened next night, of the 8th to the 9th of April? Was there still a search team in the terrain and what did they do? No signs have been found that marked their position. I do wonder whether it is realistic to assume they were lost without knowing at the first quebrada [aka; the little stream where the last daytime photos of Kris were taken, #507 and #508, Scarlet Nat]. Except for that, something must have happened, that made them stay or that got them disorientated. There were more paths in the area though, that may have got them confused. But until I see how these paths and crossings look, I do not consider that very likely. A trail parallel and quite close to the mirador might have given contact again with the phones. How would you really get lost? Running scared into the woodland and later being unable to find the path? Entering a paddock and getting lost in cow trails. You have to get in a place where everything looks alike and you lost your orientation points, like a path, specific trees or rocks, mountains, the horizon etc. There were clear paths, but we do not know if they are clear everywhere. The first cable crossing was the ultimate place they could reasonably reach that day - following the path. The river was at its lowest after a very dry season. Drowning is no option there and then. The fact that they did not take pictures any more makes me think that the problems began after the 1st qubrada and before the spot where they can be supposed to take a next picture, ultimately the view from the paddock, perhaps after entering it to take a better picture.
Youtube member F. González wrote:
I do not speak English very well, so I will use the translator to comment on this: I have investigated this case several times over the years. I'm from Panama and I'm still tormented by this mystery. I have seen many videos, I followed the investigation at the time, I have marked the places in google maps and compared what the people who last saw them said. Many people wondered why they entered the trail without a guide on April 1. Answer: they had no plans to pay for one of these tours. This is said by the director of the Spanish school, which is Dutch, because it cost a lot of money. I have some questions here, why does a guide appear on April 2 looking for them in the hostel where they stayed? What was that man doing there? If according to what the school director says is that they did not plan to go with a guide. Why would they venture a day earlier on the path if, supposedly, the next day they would go with this guide? That is suspicious. Video: minute 1:36. [..] I saw a video in which Kris's parents are walking the entire path and stopping at the places where the photos were taken. They constantly repeated that there is no way to get lost, why did not they retrace their steps? The answer is in photo #509 that was erased with a computer software. I feel that someone was watching them and they had no choice but to keep moving forward. I hope someday we know the truth, this case must be reopened. Thanks for your video, it has made me see many things that complement my vision of this tragedy. Saludos desde Panamá.
And someone wrote:
"I've been on... Well I wouldn't even call them hikes, more like tourist attractions, where one false step and you would fall hundreds of feet. I live in utah and these things happen all the time. A Boy Scout wanders off from camp and they find his skeleton within view of a parking lot. Nature is 100% indifferent. You slip and fall, that's it, you're dead. You slip the same way in the city, or your house, whatever, you don't even think of it. But a simple thing like a blister can actually kill you on even the most mundane trails. Looking at those photos those girls travelled really light. One twisted ankle later... They're toast. Maybe one fell down somewhere and the other tried to help and fell too. Then they were just far enough off the trail to get lost, or not be able to see other hikers... The tiniest tiniest thing. I don't want to stereotype but I have had European relatives come to southern utah and walk around like they're in a park. No water, sunscreen, proper shoes, pocket knife, nothing. Even in a national park you could be toast! If you have never really been in the wild you don't what you're in for. Everything is a big deal. Unless you've lived that way why would you expect it? I've been around some of the wildest landscapes in North America and I still find myself messing up almost every time I go out. Off the top of my head in the last 3 months I've almost stepped on 3 snakes, didn't bring enough water and almost got sick on a trail that never loses total view of the parking lot, had bad timing and got stuck hiking after dark, brought a whole gallon of water and still ran out and threw up from dehydration, blisters blisters blisters!, and a million other little things that I somehow survived, but had the situation been even a tiny bit more dire, I would have been in serious trouble. Did I mention most of these were on a paved trail or within view of other people/cars? And I was still struggling hard at times. If I was totally urban and ended up on a desolate trail in another hemisphere? Hell no. I am familiar with my area and I still have these issues. Luckily I know how to deal with problems more or less. But wilderness survival is not common knowledge. At least for me anyway. There's so many things you would never think of if you hadn't done it before. Sorry for the rant but so many people die in Utah nature areas and it's almost always ignorance of the weather or recklessness. That being said, 10 days is a long time and if you know the area it would be easy to be a serial killer on a long trail. [..] Reminds me of this tragic case. These people had little children with them too. Fucking heartbreaking. http://www.otherhand.org/home-page/search-and-rescue/the-hunt-for-the-death-valley-germans/ Crazy they found the adults after some time, but not the kids. Death Valley is one of my very favorite places. But it is massive and desolate. I always over prepare when I camp there. Planning on a day hike? Prepare for two days. 70 degrees overnight? Prepare for 50. Think you'll need two liters of water? Take 3. It's absurd to me to think anyone would try to take a minivan off road or that they wouldn't have a gallon of water in the back 'just in case'. But I guess if you come from a place where millions of square miles of uninhabited desert doesn't exist, it might not seem so second nature. [..] The accident scenario really reminds me of this real life story. Two inexperienced hikers trying to hike out of a wilderness at night, using their cell phones. One got injured, the other tried to go for help and perished in the attempt. Very plausible. Very sad."
LibbyinTexas wrote: "There is plenty of evidence that a crime could of happened. The reason its not an open and shut lost case is because of the other surrounding things that do not add up at all and point to something entirely different than JUST getting lost.... which is exactly why this forum has had activity since April of this year every day... because there are so many 'clues' that never seem to end as to it being something different than just lost ....the lost case people want to keep digging at it to prove it was that they were only lost but they keep running into little bumps in the road ....like the possibility that the bones were bleached with a chemical... it may be crazy wild and perhaps somewhat unprobable but why the heck is the bone clean and white? Where are the other body parts? Why aren't there pictures? Why no messages? Why did they make emergency calls that day? What the heck is that twig with the bags and the 90 dark pictures? People who get lost lost take pictures of being lost and people who get injured take pictures of it ....yet not one picture of them trying to document it... they had a camera to do all that with.... no signs, no messages... consistent phone on and offs and wrong pins entered in.... maybe one girl was trying to use the others phone...that is possible... makes sense to me.... but, over all.... it seems to me that if they did get lost its because something made them lost and then something really bad happened. Obviously. But if they were alive and of their own free will they should of been found and they should of left clues, pictures, messages... they were girls who took LOTS of pictures.... they called and communicated to family every day .... they would of had something to say goodbye or help or I love you... no doubt in my mind. Why didn't they? People suggest they had other things on their mind like staying alive... well come on... that makes no sense... people going down in the planes from 911... first thing they did was leave I LOVE YOU messages, goodbye messages..... when I thought my plane was about to crash, I didn't think about surviving, I thought about my family and did I have something to write on to leave a note...etc... first thing on my mind and the most dominate thing on my mind. They didn't do one thing and out of the two of them...one of them would of. Something happened that stopped them from doing that other than JUST being lost. [..] The thing about the girls getting to keep their backpack and phones / camera keeps being a stumbling block for most people when looking at the criminal scenario but it shouldn't be. Many creepers let their victims hang onto their stuff. Why not? They don't plan on letting them get away... letting them keep their stuff is a method to keep them calm and to believe they would be let go. If their final intention is murder...who cares if the girls hang on to their stuff because eventually they will take it away. If they know the area they realize there will be absolutely no phone coverage. The girls getting to hang onto their belongings would be no big deal to the criminal (s).... he tells them he will let them go and keeps them calm. They desperately try to get through at a certain time each day when he is gone. In the end, why the backpack wasn't ultimately taken nor its contents... Maybe he lives somewhere where he couldn't be seen with 2 fancy smart phones and a backpack... maybe there was $183 dollars and he only took $100.... maybe he thought he could get back to it....maybe there were searchers in the area and he was just trying to walk out and without suspicion and ditched it in a safe place to get back to it. But mostly, I just do not think letting them keep their belongings is any type of factor in disregarding a crime scenario. If he wanted to keep them around for awhile.... keep them happy and don't freak them out further... let them hang tightly to their backpack...."
Torero wrote: "I used to be a 70/30 non-crime/crime scenario thinker. That has turned in opposite 30/70 direction with:
- the conviction of far more experienced professionals in possession of ALL the data and in high quality
- the stranger the facts that are coming (loose skin found, the absence of messages and the chemicals)
- the impossibility to explain all these strange facts with my earlier "getting separated scenario".
- it is possible the hike was not an intended crime from the beginning, but a crime could have been committed (much) later
- in that scenario, the distress @ 16:39 & 16:51 was NOT crime-related, yet an accident, the realisation they were lost, dangerous animals or any other reason
- they could have been targeted by criminals (most probably more than 1) later on their fatal hike
- even they could have been accompanied by a third person or persons. Either a trustworthy one who changed to become/call for a foe later or a criminal from the start on
- what is also still possible, is that due to the big attention in the area, the girls were actually later targeted by wrongdoers who thought to take advantage of the lost girls case, so actually triggered by the billboards, not to find them, but to violate or kill them
- it can also be "just" 1 of the girls suffered from crime and the other died due to other causes
- another possibility is that the backpack was "safely stored", away from and never been found by criminals, just to prevent being done so. This must have been after April 11th as the phone was in there, but still that can have happened. I agree that setting out false traces rather than removing traces from the face of the Earth is ridiculous. I agree that allowing the girls in a kidnapping scenario their phones and camera does not make sense. It just makes the killer more and more psycho. But there are other possibilities.. Try and think outside of any boxes, would be my recommendation. Especially if you try to find an original viewpoint as your style suggests."
Bryn is skeptical and wrote: "Held captive where? The Panamian police went around with tracking dogs, visiting all private land and outbuildings in the area, in each case with immediate and unreserved permission by the owners, or so I've read. At the time I had the impression that private houses were not searched. But keeping someone captive in your own house requires the full cooperation of everyone who lives their or comes around to clean the place and so on. Captive, but with full and easy access to their belongings? In particular, able to continue their phone activity as before? Note that they would have to have been captured quite early, otherwise the capturing would coincide with intensive police search activity. Also, to be frank, by the 5th or later they wouldn't have been worth capturing, unless your kidnappers were prepared and able to provide hospital services before doing anything else. Captive, yet able to easily (with all their belongings) and permanently escape (their belongings were found in good nick) never to be recaptured, despite them being able to point their finger at their kidnappers if they managed to reach help? And that's just for starters. [..] I would expect their final camp and place of death to be close to where the partial pelvis of the one and the shoe containing remains of the other were found. Their camp may well have been very close to the river when there wasn't much water in it, allowing it to pick up the backpack weeks later and take it half a mile downstream. In that case the river was somewhat surprisingly kind to the backpack and its content."
Some more good comments I read
ZeitgeistWI wrote: "While it all seems weird, I think that the girls may have just stumbled on to something they should not have been around and once that happened, the only thing to do was make them disappear which they did and for some time. No alien abductions, no strange cryptids or anything like that, just your common every day drug dealers with a lab in the forest. This could also explain why they were calling the police, to report what they had seen. It all adds up if you think on it and its not like this kind of thing doesn't happen every day in Central and South America. If you have ever talked with or worked with a drug interdiction team, you would know exactly what I am talking about and then the possible motive as to what happened in this case becomes quite clear. The only reason that any remains of these two were found, is because someone got lazy and I can see that happening too. I am sure that the rank and file soldiers working with dealers aren't the brightest bulbs in the box, they just do what they are told. [..] Bottom line is whenever you go to Central and South America, you need to be vigilant, you need to be cautious and you need to know when or even if you should talk about something you saw. It is a very different world down there. Life is cheap and the further you get away from the tourist areas, the greater the possibility of you becoming a victim. Oh sure, you can ignore this bit of friendly advice but if you ask anyone who has been there and seen it the way it really is, and not as some personal crusade to help the less fortunate in the world, you will see that whole towns are often run by cartels and the law that is there is on their payroll or thugs from the cartel themselves do the policing. I have no doubt in my mind that these poor girls were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and they paid for it with their lives."Steven x. wrote: "Its hard to believe that in the middle of a panama rainforest with so many animals, they claim there was no sign of animals eating the corpses despite the time their remains were left there."
CAt From Outer Space wrote: "Hunter Killerz like to stalk their Prey, Before the Fatal Strike, Spying on em -watching em sleep, watching em panic -[Excitement], getting to know their Prey/[Target]. Its a Special Intimacy of the Hunt. This could be why they were able to make calls for 3 days."
ZeitgeistWI also wrote: "There are drug traffickers out in remote locations. I know first hand that entire labs can be underground and you would never know they were there unless you happened to hear an off noise from ventilation equipment or something along those lines. They like to use hiking trails as points of reference and then these labs and storehouses are off a point somewhere on the trail. It saves them having to do their own "trail blazing" in order to set up remote operations. An encounter with some of these less than desirable people would explain why the bones of the one girl had traces of chemicals on them and makes sense when you think of a remote drug lab out in a forest somewhere. Foreign nationals are not like locals who can be easily made to be quiet about something they might see, and the girls being missing would attract searches and probably not just by local authorities so how do you "remove the problem"? You take the bodies, subject them to chemicals that remove skin and other tissues and all you are left with are bones which can then be dropped somewhere in the woods. Scattered skeletal remains are much harder to find than a complete body or skeleton although in this case, the ones charged with getting rid of the body parts might just have been lazy or not careful enough to have disposed them further away and deeper in the forest. The lack of predation also points to something not right with the remains. Local wildlife would set upon a body left in the wilderness and bits and pieces would be carried off as scavengers compete for food. These were all in close proximity and dumped apparently together and there were no bite marks or other marks on the bones to indicate that predators had been around them. Also, if the bodies were put in chemicals to get rid of flesh, etc., that would explain why predators had not touched them. [..] I think if local authorities could explore this angle further, you might have an answer to this mystery but its hard to know who is on the take and who isn't. If you bring this up to someone in the authorities who is on the take and getting paid to look the other way, you might just end up the next bones that they find in the woods and nobody would be the wiser because you never showed up there or you did and then you left and had not been seen since. [..] You should always travel armed if you are licensed and all the necessary paperwork is done locally to allow you to do so. If you don't trust local authorities, carry any way and just don't make a production about it. Check in with your embassy if you have one or the closest one to where you are. Embassies can give you valuable information about local customs, history, crime, potential threats and where not to go or who to talk to. Pack enough supplies for at least two to three days in case you would get lost. It's a lot easier to wait for rescue if you aren't hungry or thirsty. Carry a first aid kit and be able to have some idea of basic life saving skills should you be injured until help can arrive. Have a rudimentary understanding and command of the local language or at least seek out someone who can translate for you. Lastly, get a satellite phone. The last thing you want to worry about if you feel your life is in danger is how many bars you have and down that way, service is not reliable at all. A satellite phone gives you quick access to phone service should you need it."
Milo & Stefanie wrote: "I think something that's often ignored from the missing 411 type of mysteries is the psychosis that sets in when someone is stressed, active, and dehydrated in humid climates. -- This is kind of personal, but I will share it here -- I walk all day in heat and high humidity for my job and for the first two years, during the summer and fall, I didn't realize I was getting dehydrated and I got a little crazy, seeing sparkles, hallucinating evil cats crossing the road to make my days longer and worse (we walk for about 8-10 hours), and I was new and didn't want to get fired, so I didn't take any breaks. The rest of my brain was functioning normally, I was really good at doing my job correctly, but I was a little insane from it all. [..] This wouldn't account for everything, but would help explain any behaviors that seem illogical. It's like you think your thinking is fine, but it's actually not. It's so sad what happened to these two young ladies, and I'm not trying to mitigate or downplay what happened to them, but I would speculate dehydration being a contributor to their early deaths."
Andy wrote: "Two white girls walking alone in the forest = stupid. The local homeboys would have thought JACKPOT and where probably in temporary shock before the kidnapping and endless gang raping started. Don't think so, remember the one backpack and the equipment inside were covered in multiple sets of fingerprints. The local police and politicians would cover it up because this information getting out would be bad for tourist business. Panama like most Central and South American nations are dangerous especially for white people who go out of the tourists areas. Most millennials do not have common sense and will not listen. After all the females are liberated until they land in a third world s--t-hole like Panama then bad things happen."
Josi wrote: "Interesting and enlightening coverage of this case. One thing to note: Latin American police investigations can be maddeningly vague and/or incomplete compared to what we in other areas of the world might expect. This is a very sad incident, and it's a shame that the girls felt so safe in area where they simply shouldn't have. I've travelled numerous times to South American countries, and I would never dream of travelling anywhere like this terrain without an experienced guide and a group, as well as a satellite phone. It's just not safe in any rugged environment (not just Latin countries)."
TheAcsendedOne wrote: "I mean come on... there clearly has to be a third party involvement. 40 something different finger prints on the backpack. 6 different finger prints on their bras... there just had to be someone going through their stuff."
Kurea nae wrote: "I have been obsessed by this story and I have given it a lot of thought and attention. I have read the blog, watched all videos of the camera specialist multiple times and I have a theory with lots of speculations. So here goes: I believe that the girls did return from the trail. The missing picture might have been showing Kris ascending those rocks which made it unusable for photoshop and a big giveaway of their return. The entire photoshop is meant to make us believe that the girls did not return to the pianista peak, but I think they did. There, they have been intercepted by foul play. A very sketchy red van, which was briefly mentioned in witness testimonies, was seen up there- never to be found once searched. I believe they have been taken then and held for 7 days. There, they are either limited to use their phones or are being used by their captors, because the times they do use them have a similar timeline and pattern. Some have said that these are the times that guides start and finish their routes. At the night of the 7th they escaped, with Kris wearing only her boots and lingerie (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88bN2-VUfac). At a monkey bridge during the escape Kris fell to her death. Lisanne then tries to find her friend in the darkness for 1 hour or so, she does, confirms her death and proceeds alone. Captors are probably sleeping, that's why Lisanne has this time. The amount of effort she puts to unlock Kris's phone shows desperation to me-probably wants to leave a message cause she is in fear of her life. Few hours later the captors find Kris dead, there is a MASSIVE search ongoing, so they are also desperate now. "What if Lisanne make it out alive through the jungle and talk"? So they bleach Kris's bones to make her disappear ASAP as preparation for covering up and play dumb. Lisanne fights for 3 more days but is eventually found, either alive or dead from exhaustion. The captors are calm now, there is no need for bleaching. They let this body decompose naturally in a place no one will probably ever find. Unfortunately for them, many weeks pass and the thing does not blow over, so they plant back the evidence, doctrined, and the bones to end the search. They got lost, they are dead, people will finally stop looking and pestering their grounds. End of theory. Very interesting person this guide; his actions could be that of the most concerned angel or that of the greater devil. Testimonies point out that he was a creep and a harasser of women. Also interesting the story of the taxi driver that got the girls up there- ended up dead under shady circumstances a year later. I think it was foul play and cover up by a corrupted police. Very heartbreaking."
Fran wrote: "I’m thinking there was definitely someone else with them which would explain why some of the pictures where deleted or tampered with as the person was in the pictures and why the bag was placed where it was he put it there , he probably acted like he would go with them then turned on them half way though prob attacked one of the girls they ran away which is why they phoned the emergency services over 3 days but he found them again and finished them off."
Frank P. wrote: "I’ve always felt they were using the flash in an attempt to scare off a predator or what they thought was one. Noises in the jungle can be constant and in the dark it’s possible their imagination ran wild with every sound. There are big cats there and they will stalk you for hours."
My own point of view:It is a very mysterious case, and it could still turn out either way; the girls may have gotten lost and just kept walking in the wrong direction. Its possible, we have no direct evidence of neither the Lost scenario nor the Foul play one. As in: the girls did not leave any markers along the way: they didn't leave things hanging in the trees to show search teams where they went (if they knew they were lost, they would have done so I think because we all know the story of Hansel and Gretel here). They also didn't make signs on the ground with sticks or something and the mysteriously appearing toilet paper from one of the night photos was also never found back anywhere else; not hanging in trees to prove that the girls passed by. They made no photos seemingly of themselves being lost; not a single photo proves that they got injured or were sitting in the middle of the jungle while not knowing where to go; no landmarks were photographed in order to memorize them in case they ever wanted to turn around. These girls were smart, highly educated, and they had a fully functioning digital camera with video option, which had enough battery life and enough memory card space. So there is no logical explanation as to why they WOULDN'T do any of that. Or record a diary entrance explaining what happened. For diary writers, documenting such a life changing event would be second nature, you'd assume. So there is no evidence that they were out there after April 1st or that they were lost. - Then on the other hand, we also have no direct evidence of foul play either. But we have indirect 'evidence'; clues that should be seriously contemplated by anyone interested in this case, I think.
*The scientific and pathological facts in this case don't point to Kris and Lisanne having just died from hunger or exhaustion. Animal attacks have been ruled out by the microscopic autopsy of the bones; because even under the microscope, not a single animal bite or scratch mark was found on any of the bones.. The state in which the bones were found is suspicious (also according to the actual forensic investigators and pathologist involved in their autopsy). The location where they were scattered too. And the absence of the majority of the bodies is also suspicious.
*Kris body not found back near the river, or at a location matching the location of the night photos. Kris' few remains were not found near the 2nd or even the 3rd cable bridge, but much further up north, between 10-14 walking hours away. One half of a broken pelvic bone on one spot, a rib bone on another. Kris' few bones were found in the vicinity of those of Lisanne, and nowhere near a place that resembles the location of the night photo 542. It is a pressing question how Kris' broken pelvis could end up so far north, in an area without cliffs or natural surroundings where she could have actually broken her pelvic so severely. How is it possible that a dead Kris (with her pelvic broken in two) could end up so many hours away from the location where she could have theoretically sustain such a severe injury? This was a fit healthy young woman and a pelvis does not just snap in two. She could not have walked with this injury.
*Finding intact skin and flesh from one girls leg, and completely bleached clean white bones from the other, within a 10 week-or so time frame. It has stunned the specialist who did the autopsy.
*And another fact: Kris' few bones contained a high level of phosphates, they were bleached and in the last state of decomposition. After 10 weeks tops. Lisanne's bone remnants found in the same area still had meat and skin on them and no phosphates and they were in an early stage of decomposition. These facts make it difficult to keep up that Lisanne left a dead Kris behind early on and went ahead alone.
*But then you have Panamanian police who did not do even the most basic of forensic investigation. They destroyed so much evidence. It's heartbreaking.
*People háve gone missing on the Pianista trail and beyond. The problem is how to STAY lost, with half an army looking for you and this area being no dense Amazonian jungle, but also having open fields, cattle grazing, inhabited houses etc. Sinaproc have gone all over the place and there have been multiple helicopters used, who went over the entire area.
*But I also agree that there are definitely problems with the Foul Play scenario too. It takes a stretch of the imagination to assume that a 3rd person or party would orchestrate the whole thing like in an Agatha Christy novel. I understand that normal criminals would no let the girls keep their phones; would destroy the camera, would steal their 83 dollars to make it look like a robbery. They wouldn't go so far as to make their own nighttime photos (something some Crime believers think). And then plant these few bones. Its'all a lot of work and a lot of thinking. But on the other hand: there have been smart criminals before. Jeremy Kryt the investigation journalist has written about this case and now believes that a serial killer is at work. The FBI has published that they suspect or even know that there is a link between the deaths of Kris and Lisanne and the murder of American young woman Catherine Johannet nearby, a few years later, who was found strangled by her own bathing clothing a few hours up north. It is not a phantom of the imagination therefore to consider the possibility of a serial perpetrator at work; someone smart enough not to get caught. It's just a theory.
*Now in the Kris and Lisanne case, it is a fact that before the backpack and the few bones were found, the parents from Kris and the relatives from Lisanne kept coming back to that jungle. They had just set up a foundation over here and had amassed a lot of money through it; money they said they would use to keep searching, relentlessly, for their daughters. Now, imagine you are involved in their murder and live in that forest there. Would you want these Dutch to keep coming back and back? Bringing sometimes dog units, other times Dutch investigators? I don't think so. What has stopped these parents for a fact, looking back now, is the discovery of the bag with the camera and phones and the info they got from there, as well as the finding of these bones. Now, it were very few bones. Very few... Too few for specialists to extract a cause of death from. So we don't know if they were murdered; if their heads were bashed in to put it bluntly, we'd need the skulls to prove this. But the skulls have never been found back. Nevertheless, this pivotal finding of these bones and backpack gave the parents the knowledge that their girls were dead. And it stopped for a fact these searches. There were 2 small scale ones scattered over the next half year, but that was the end of it. So it may seem far fetched but it also proved to be an effective way to stop this incessant attention for the area. Perhaps it was a coincidence that the bag washed up. But why then was it dry and clean? How come even the dollar bills were dry inside. It was a cheap lycra bag, not even waterproof. Forensic specialist interviewed by Jeremy Kryt, who are experienced in this field, have scoffed at the notion that the bag would have looked like that after 10 weeks in a rainy muddy jungle or even more than 10 minutes in the river. It wasn't carried by the river, the evidence in the form of the actual state of the bag disproves it. So there the first doubt sets in; how did that thing wash up then in that rice paddy? And how about the totally bleached bones from Kris with phosphorus (which was tested for in the soil and it does not contain it so it didn't get onto it through the ground), the early stage decomposed bones from Kris with intact skin and maggots still. Its gory but they are factual witnesses. Also the location; someone with a pelvic so severely broken does not walk herself 14 hours up north, where there are no natural ways to fall, crash and break your pelvic like that.
Vicki wrote me about some photos that circulate on the internet: "I do not believe that the later pictures of Kris [on April 1st] were taken by Lisanne. They are horribly out of focus and have all kinds of weird things in them, as if someone was taking photos over old photos. In the one, Kris has her arms behind her head as if someone has a gun on her. That is the typical arrest pose in the US. Arms behind head. In that pic if you look hard in the surrounding bushes, you can make out many Hispanic male pics. That picture to me is the most horrifying and I just imagine her trying to make a getaway and getting caught. That’s how I think of her expression too. Anyway that picture horrified me and just looking at it gave me a panic attack. Seriously. I would like to know if anyone has ever brought up the fact that according to the authorities, they were wandering the jungle for days and nights. Then why in the pic of Kris that people believe shows her deceased, is her hair bright and clean. Wouldn’t your hair be dirty and gross after that many days? No way. I don’t buy it at all. I just think some of those pics were photoshopped at the top and then the last few of their trip, not the night ones, were made [taken] over other pics. Everything was focused on Kris. I just don’t think Lisanne made it as far in the trip as Kris."
Update: "I realize I sound like a looney in my first post about seeing faces of men. I thought I was seeing things so I googled about their disappearance and other people have seen them too. There is a website, that has some of the faces circled. Unless it is just something that happened when they downloaded them, as one man looks to be wearing a name badge of some sort. Another thought. Could there have been the Boquete Ganga theory going on and they separated the girls? I am just baffled over the pics. I believe that you’re right about it being planned, so as to stage the lost theory. I can honestly say until I ran across your website, I had not heard of these girls. It’s just so awful. I hurt for these two young, beautiful girls with their whole lives ahead of them. Either way, they had to have been absolutely terrified. I am terrified of the dark myself and if they were out there alone, which I will NEVER believe, it would be horrifying. Either way, they lost big time. Just devastating." So, I had also seen those photos before, but for some reason never put them in these blog entries. But now that I read Vicki's comment, I remembered them again. I do not know if this is really what was in the background of these photos, or make-belief, or can be credited to photoshopping, but anyway, here they are:
Update: "I realize I sound like a looney in my first post about seeing faces of men. I thought I was seeing things so I googled about their disappearance and other people have seen them too. There is a website, that has some of the faces circled. Unless it is just something that happened when they downloaded them, as one man looks to be wearing a name badge of some sort. Another thought. Could there have been the Boquete Ganga theory going on and they separated the girls? I am just baffled over the pics. I believe that you’re right about it being planned, so as to stage the lost theory. I can honestly say until I ran across your website, I had not heard of these girls. It’s just so awful. I hurt for these two young, beautiful girls with their whole lives ahead of them. Either way, they had to have been absolutely terrified. I am terrified of the dark myself and if they were out there alone, which I will NEVER believe, it would be horrifying. Either way, they lost big time. Just devastating." So, I had also seen those photos before, but for some reason never put them in these blog entries. But now that I read Vicki's comment, I remembered them again. I do not know if this is really what was in the background of these photos, or make-belief, or can be credited to photoshopping, but anyway, here they are:
I remember using that eerie photo with Kris posing with her arms on her back before, that one Vicki referred to, and changing all sorts of its settings in photoshop to see if I could also have these faces in the background light up. I couldn't! But then again, I'm a big amateur so that doesn't say too much. I'm not sure if they truly were there in the background, I think not; they seem photoshopped there by someone. But there is no denying that those photos taken after they celebrated reaching the Pianista summit, are peculiar. Kris' facial expressions are not the same, and seem off, strange; or maybe she was just annoyed about something. Or had they by then ran into someone or some people who forced them to keep walking further and to make a few more 'tourist pictures'? I don't know, I may read too much into them. And yes, the hair from Kris does look surprisingly clean on the night of April 8th. No mud, no branches or little things stuck in it, no dreadlocks after not being able to comb it for all that time.
Another day in Panama, another tourist attacked and dealing with incompetent and corrupt Panamanian officials and police. What's new (thanks for the tip Paul)
Excellent podcast episode about this disappearance case, for the German speaking people among you
February 10, 2020 by Marieke and Amanda from Puppies and Crime
For anyone who speaks German, this is an excellent podcast about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne. It's called "Verschwunden im Nebelwald" (Disappeared in the cloud forest) and this episode is detailed and atmospheric. Thanks guys for bringing this case to a bigger audience.
In this blog post of mine you can read about other cases of disappeared hikers, as well as see more info and images of Boquete and surroundings.
Well, at first I thought these girls where kidnapped and murdered, but after reading all the 5 articles, I'm more than sure that they just got lost, because I saw the top view from the forest, and the place is enourmous. 2 inexperienced girls, with no food and water supplies, and short jeans and light shirts could easily die from hypothermia, snake bite or other kind of venomous animals... Maybe Lisanne fall from the top of some rock and stuck the foot inside of it, that's the reason of that loose foot inside the boot and Kris hit her head by slipping in the river mud. That's it. It's hard to believe that some serial killer or indigenous people killed these girls leaving all evidences behind, it just doesn't make sense, to let a hostage with a cellphone in hands and a camera doing a lot of pictures
ReplyDeletethey were killed and the taxidriver and the boys knew that they returned from the hike and went swimming afterwards which, as an official information, would have let the "getting lost in the jungle" story collapse and it would have put the attention instantly onto murder.
DeleteSo how you're gonna explain the following facts my friend?
Delete- Why their complete remains are unknown?
- Kris' bones were bleached.
- Their clothes? If someone dead in a jungle you will easily find his clothes together with complete skeletons even after 10 more years.
- Why not even 1 message or call made to their parents/host family. If someone gets lost he will 100% tries to contact his family regardless there's signal or not (failed message).
- Why no single selfie after 508, if they were alive after that day there would be at least some clear photos of themselves/faces.
- Missing image 509?
- The phones and camera weren't dirty at all, if someone lost in the jungle in rainy days and touched his phone. It's gonna leave dirty marks from muds etc.
- Many people that met them are dead.
- Many more weird facts about them.
Strange as hell. God bless both of them. I hope the bad people get haunted for the rest of their lives.
The general consensus amongst the expert researchers are infact that Kris and Lisanne didn't know that once you reach the summit you're supposed to turn around and go down the way you came up. They never turned around and I believe further walking that night got them deeper into the jungle, lost, and lost out on the option of being able to go back the way they came. I've had alot of experience walking paths and I tell you what, paths are very deceptive, they only need a slight curvature to them to completely disorient you, you think you’re walking along a straight path and it's not until you get home onto google earth that you realize where you have been walking is so different. The reality of the situation is that Kris and Lisane were very young adults, they ventured onto the the El Pianista trail for the first time without a tour guide, with a less than perfect inventory. With half charged mobile phones that weren't able to get phone reception. No map, possibly not even a flashlight, inadequate clothing, no flares, emergency beacons, whistles, compasses or satellite phones. Few food and drink supplies as well. Considering the possibility that they got lost after they passed the summit, after the day ended, if they continued trekking in the darkness it may not have been in their best interests. The next day they resumed walking along unknown paths that were actually leading them deeper into the forest. What concerns me about lengthy forest paths is that they are often curvey and are usually several kilometers long. If you venture along a 2 kilometer path in the wrong direction, it's likely going to result in you walking up to 8 kilometers just to correct that incorrect decision, unless you have the benefit of a phone with google maps. It's the unforgiving nature of strange unmarked curvey forest paths that are a detriment to your health and energy levels if you are stranded.
ReplyDeleteI've lived on a farm without mobile phone reception for years. When I wanted to make a call I would walk 2 kilometers into the forest, at the rear of my property and walk up this strange path, that gets you up a tall hill and there's this one 50 square meter area that provides just one bar of phone reception. The area's full of hazards, lose gravel and rocks to slip on, snakes around the place, muddy clay areas and a very hot climate with the risk of heat stroke. What this causes me to think is that these hazards exist 24/7 100% of the time, the chances of being murdered on this reception hill are absolutely zero, well maybe by a snake. When you think about Kris and Lisanes situation, there were many other hazards existing 24/4 100% of the time, namely inadequate preparation, unfamiliarity with the terrain, no GPS and no phone signal. There were an overwhelming number of hazards that had a 24/7 presence, when you consider scenarios such as murder, the statistical possibility of that occurring is extremely low, about 0.7%. I acknowledge that there were 2 discrepancies, firstly the deleted photo on the sd card and the bone fragment that was covered in lime powder. But these are just anomalies that neither prove or disprove any sequence of events. I guess you still have to consider all possibilities such as murder, but I think the more probable scenario is likely that Kris and Lisane incorrectly ventured further deeper into the jungle while their situation steadily deteriorated and one of them got injured, god bless their souls. I think the real culprit here the missing phone reception and I think it's unfair that the South American government never put phone towers in that area. What my final goal to do here is persuade a wealthy charity such as the Bill and Melinda gates foundation to donate 400k for the purpose of installing phone towers in that area, out of respect for Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon who tragically died as a conseqence of this, which was barely any fault of their own, I think it's important to do something beneficial to honor their memory. That is all.
Thanks, you shared interesting information. I agree that getting lost isn't hard, at all. Not even for weathered hikers, which they were most definitely not. I just don't agree with your summary of the main discrepancies. I'd say that you are leaving the biggest one out: how is it possible that these girls dropped off their entire backpack in an inhabited area? It's all great to think of vast forests, but the reality of the day is that Kris and Lisanne didn't get lost in Canada's Boreal forest, but in a stretch of terrain that has many open spaces, many finca's and houses that are inhabited along the river and many farms and open spaces where cattle is held. To me it is impossible to explain why two girls, exhausted, petrified and starving, would leave all their belongings including a well functioning digital camera, behind alongside the river in a rice paddy, where people work every single day from morning till evening. And how their few bone remains ended up in another area of civilization. Along the river. Yet they never saw a single person or knocked on any door of the houses along that river for help? That is the biggest ' discrepancy'. Unfortunately nobody who makes a case for them having gone lost, will stick to such facts or properly explain them....
DeleteDear Scarlett and Juan,
ReplyDeleteI just found out your blog and Juan's video's. Great work! I hope we will find out one day what really happened...
I am from Amersfoort Holland so excuse my English......and I have one question first, it really haunts me.
HOW SURE ARE YOU OR JUAN (OR THE PARENTS AND NFI? )THAT ALL THE REMAINS FOUND WERE KRIS AND lISANNE'S???
Can Panama ly about this to cover everything up?
My first idea when they disappeared: captured and brought into a brothel anywhere anyplace.....beautiful, nice and healthy girls..........they came down the Mirador, and were given a ride ( THE red truck or the 2 man from the taxi before )to hell.
Then they ( the guide who is definitely involved in the case ) found the remains ( I'm sorry to say.. I was really relieved )and The Lost Scenario came up.
NO WAY!Foul Play is is.
Please, tell me some Dutch invastigation person confirmed the remains are genuine Kris and Lisanne's?
The idea that the remains are not theirs is too terrible to think about.
Much obliged if you or Juan can answer this?
Thank you for keeping this strange case alive!
Regards and high hopes!
Danielle from Amersfoort, Holland
Hi I will copy my reply to your email here also, it's in Dutch.
DeleteIk heb geen bewijs gezien van het OM
dat er bij ons een second opinion is gedaan. Dus die DNA match voor de botten is in Panama gelegd.
Omdat de familie en het OM veel feiten niet openbaar hebben gemaakt, valt het voor ons als buitenstaanders niet te verifiëren of die botanalyse wel klopt. Gezien de beroerde manier waarop er daar onderzoek is gepleegd, ben ik zelf ook wel benieuwd of we echt met 100% zekerheid op hun data kunnen steunen..
De botten van Kris zijn later teruggekomen omdat de Kremers niet akkoord gingen met een vroege afsluiting van het onderzoek. Ik weet niet wanneer ze die botten uiteindelijk ontvangen hebben. Ik zou zelf in hun situatie ervoor zorgen dat die botten nogmaals op DNA getest werden, zodat er geen enkele twijfel meer was.
Ja het is lastig, met zo weinig botten die gevonden zijn en alllll die andere absurde twists en turns, is er bij mij ook twijfel over het officiële verhaal..
Als het OM de bot analyses al geverifieerd heeft, dan is dat niet met de pers besproken of naar buiten gebracht. Ik vermoed dat het daarom niet gebeurd is, maar het is theoretisch ook nog steeds mogelijk dat ze wel een second opinion hebben gedaan maar dit geheim wilden houden om de Panamezen niet voor het hoofd te stoten.
Ja vanaf juli dat jaar ging de focus toch richting het MH17 onderzoek, dat denk ik ook.
Tsja ik vertrouw Betzaida Pitti en kronies voor geen meter, die hebben het hele onderzoek verknald en bewijsmateriaal verkwanseld. Maar wat je zegt, om vreemde botten mee te geven, dat is wel een erg groot risico. Ik kan me bijna niet voorstellen dat ze dat zouden doen, ook met de achterdochtige Kremers in het achterhoofd. Maar goed, alles is mogelijk...
groetjes Scarlet
I also wonder .. was there an independent DNA test done? If not I would be doubtful that I trust the DNA tests....
ReplyDeleteThey could have just collected some of the bones (and in that spot were enough) and claimed thats them! It would explain why there are only so few bones
I just answered it above to Danielle :) The DNA match was made in Panama.
DeleteAs far as I know, there has not been information provided that the Dutch did the DNA testing as well, for a second opinion. But it is possible that the parents did order this, but behind closed doors. I certainly would. But we do not have information about this. But it would be a huge risk for Panama to give strange bones to the parents. If that had come out during a simple DNA test, the reputation of the Panamanian prosecution would be in tatters. It seems too risky to me to pull such a stunt. But hey, we're talking Betzaida Pitti here, so anything is possible...
What do you think of the possibility that Kris and Lisanne disturbed an African killer bee hive. 2 girls wouldn't just carelessly fall off a cliff. But if you google search cliff fall bee attacks, there are quite a high number of cliff falls caused by bee attacks. African bee hives are known to exist just meters off the ground, in bushes etc. And Panama has recorded a larger than ever presence of Africanized bees.
ReplyDeleteThank you Scarlet for all the work you have done, and still are doing, on this case. Like you, I am haunted by this and have spent many days on it. I sometimes even wake up in the night thinking about it. It is frustrating to know this case actually could be solved, but nothing is being done by authorities. It is a riddle where every answer leads to more questions. I feel my mind can not come to peace with this before I have a reasonable suggestion for myself, where the pieces fit. I keep reminding myself that so much info is missing or unreliable, and many things that we think are established facts, might just be early rumors, or errors in translations. Also, no matter what chain of events truly happened, some very unlikely things also must have happened, at some point. So you can’t go with the ”most likely” option on every detail, because then no scenario add up. But even considering this, I can’t make everything fit in a plausible scenario, and I guess that’s where the obsession start to kick in, even though I don’t want to because thinking about it gives me the creeps. I would like to add some points on various things that I haven’t seen being mentioned, and elaborate on others. In no particular order.
ReplyDeleteMy gut feeling from the start, even before I read about the boys, is they were murdered by a group of young men beyond the trail. The gang might have known they were on the trail, or just ran into them from the opposite side or a side path (yes of course there are side paths, known to locals). Harassed the girls just long enough they had a chance to secretly try calling 112, or laughing at them doing so, knowing there’s no reception. Had some ”fun”, raped them and killed them. It might not have been a plan to kill them, but they might have fought back, and men like this don’t care. Misogyny and victim blaming is huge here (as everywhere, to be fair) They could also initially been taken to a remote shed or small house. They were then buried far away from the search area or the cadaver dogs would have found them - maybe Kris was buried first and with fertilizer. Or they were both covered in a hurry, leaving Lisanne’s leg untouched by fertilizer. Possibly the bodies were chopped up. The community/F. later decided to dig up some parts to try to claim the reward. The Ngobe were told to play along, ”finding” things, and they would be rewarded.
People don’t go to the police in rural areas with corrupt authorities. They deal with things as a community. They won’t talk. Guide F is clearly an informal leader in Alto Romero. He either knows exactly who did it, or he doesn’t need to know to be in control of the narrative anyway. He only needs to convey to his community that now is they time to turn in the backback, and now I want you to bring some bones, etc.
...
continuing...
ReplyDeleteI personally don’t think F. is the perpetrator, though he might had been aware early on they had been murdered/abducted and did some damage control. While he does show some peculiar behavior similar to other serial killers, it’s unlikely he attacked the girls alone. But regarding his behavior when the girls missed his tour? This man, known as pushy even by Latino standards, possibly not getting paid if the tour was cancelled? I can totally see him looking for the girls as it was a short walk. They stayed in a private home, so he would need a key to go in and knock their door. Then, he and Eileen could have went to the coffee farm to see if the girls had gone there by themselves due to a misunderstanding regarding the starting point. They were rumored to have booked the coffee farm tour with him, not the trail. Some reports said they had already been at a coffee and strawberry farm, but it doesn’t seem like it from their diaries. It is mentioned many times they ”turned down an invitation to his farm”, but this cannot be an established fact since there is no proof he ever talked to them except for ”Hola”. I don’t see his statements as meeting/not meeting them as conflicting either. He said he greeted them briefly, but also said he never met them. He might mean he never met them properly, or referring to them not meeting him April 2nd. Remember, all of the witness statements are translated back and forth numerous times, and none were documented by professionals. It is also very common that witnesses are greatly confusing details, even in fresh events.
I’ve seen it mentioned that the swimming photo is taken April 1st and if that’s true, it is likely them. Not only is it so unlikely that two other girls with those features were there at the same time, but also since both look like they are wearing strapless tops, which we know both used. Is it possible they went swimming _before_ the pianista hike? Say, around 11 o clock? They would have had enough time to do so. I calculate it would have been very rushed to be swimming in Caldera after the hike but before the 112 call. They were seen in the pharmacy and super market in the morning, and it would add up to go swimming and then back to alto boquete to change out of the bikinis and leave again around 13pm as stated by the most detailed witness statements. There were also a couple photos on their camera that might be the Caldera area, seemingly taken before the Pianista photos. If they met the group of boys here, they might have talked about the Pianista trail. Osman was very likely murdered and here is the connection.
...
...
ReplyDeleteI’ve seen it mentioned that the swimming photo is taken April 1st and if that’s true, it is likely them. Not only is it so unlikely that two other girls with those features were there at the same time, but also since both look like they are wearing strapless tops, which we know both used. Is it possible they went swimming _before_ the pianista hike? Say, around 11 o clock? They would have had enough time to do so. I calculate it would have been very rushed to be swimming in Caldera after the hike but before the 112 call. They were seen in the pharmacy and super market in the morning, and it would add up to go swimming and then back to alto boquete to change out of the bikinis and leave again around 13pm as stated by the most detailed witness statements. There were also a couple photos on their camera that might be the Caldera area, seemingly taken before the Pianista photos. If they met the group of boys here, they might have talked about the Pianista trail. Osman was very likely murdered and here is the connection.
Another reason I find it likely they never returned from the Pianista summit, is there is not a single photo on the way back, at least not if we are to believe the stated photo order. One might argue they had already walked the path so why take more photos, but you see things differently going back and they snapped pics quite often even when they weren’t capturing any particular site. I believe more in the old/late timeline, and the photographing would then have stopped right before the distress call, instead of hours before. The only two things mentioned ”proving” the new timeline is the time stamp and sun angle. I’ve had similar cameras and the time stamp was random unless I adjusted it, and apparently they didn’t considering the year was wrong. And about the lighting - the summit has vegetation, clouds, mountains and even a volcano, all scattering the light and casting shadows. And on auto-mode, lighting and colors will shift even from one photo to the next. Yesterday, I photographed birds in the early evening, on auto-mode. Clear daylight, blue sky. Still, anyone would think they are taken in the sunset right before darkness. The birds are black silhouettes, sky is glowing red, with light seemingly coming from a very low point. Irl, it looked nothing like that! And things like this happens all the time with my 3 cameras - if on automode. Juan states one of the summit photos is from Kris’ I-phone. It should have been easy then to compare this time stamp, phone most likely to be accurate. Sadly, even this seems to be lost in the incredibly sloppy investigation.
I do think it is more likely they would choose to continue beyond the summit in the new timeline with enough time to return. Unless they thought it was a loop which many have stated is possible since the info was sparse back then. So I am leaning towards this. In the video with Kris’ parents walking the trail, they seem quick to assume some things. Like that they would have stayed on the path and stayed put in the night. The most common reasons people get lost is they try to make a shortcut, or they try walking in a straight direction which is harder than you think, and is easy to miscalculate in the first place. As a frequent hiker myself, I can confirm how deceiving things can be even in an open environment. Backtracking is not as easy as it sounds, and even though many learn you should stay in one place until found, most don’t. When realizing they saw no signs of Boquet at the time they should, they might have tried to take a shortcut back in fear of being caught in the dark. Even sensible, experienced hikers have been known to make this error. I don’t believe they were lost for 11 days, but it’s certainly possible they were initially. The number one reason I can’t believe there was no foul play, is they didn’t send text messages, tried several numbers or called multiple times the first and second day.
ReplyDeleteAbout the PIN codes. Some sources say there was NO pincode entered after the 5th, and others that is was the wrong pincode. Very different things imo. And does this necessarily mean the correct code was entered at all until then? Considering you don’t need it to call emergency in the first place. I have the feeling this is a cruel ”joke”, as much as a lazy cover up. Starting April 2nd and awaiting a decision what to do with the bodies and their things. I wish we would have clear info on exactly what was communicated with Kris’ boyfriend, seemingly 2pm. My guess is it was a short text message, or WhatsApp or similar, since it didn’t seem much was conveyed other than they were having a good time. Isn’t it likely she mentioned the summit? Sent the photo of her on it even? He must have had the time documented on his phone, making him the most reliable witness. And still it doesn’t seem there was much significance given to this. A text message can have a delay, especially when sent abroad. And the girls’ phones did lose contact shortly before 2pm so if he is being very exact, there actually was a delay and they might have already been behind the summit. But if there was no delay, it fits better with the old timeline and the girls turned their phones off after this contact, maybe to save battery on the way up.
Regarding the bad police work - sadly this is not as uncommon as the general public thinks. Westerns often think police work is organized, always carried out by professionals CIA style. But even in Europe and US, there are so many examples of cases completely destroyed in badly performed investigations. Or investigations not even carried out at all even when the crime is obvious. I am sadly not surprised at all by this investigation. Foul play was not the agreed or wanted theory, so why waste resources on preserving evidence or interrogating suspects? I can totally see how #509 was deleted by mistake. When sorted by date this would be the last in the list of April 1st, or the first of night photos, or in its own list if taken on a date between. When copying files in batches these are the easiest to miss. And about the EXIF data - numerous media could have opened and fitted them to their reports etc by the time it got out. I don't think there is this level of smartness involved.
ReplyDeleteAnd the ball of skin actually being handed in much earlier than stated and stored in a fridge until some local cop wondered what to do with it. We can’t even rely on where the remains were found since each find wasn’t documented properly, and several bones turned out to not be theirs. It is so frustrating dogs were not brought to search those areas along the bank as soon as the remains were found. As far as I understand dogs searched the other side of the river.
I leaned towards a drug cartel or sex or organ trafficking for a while, but as someone says, I don't think there would have been any trace at all if so. None. They wouldn't care about tourism or a money reward or a lost narrative.
The night photos - if Lisanne really took them (I do think it looks like her cheek and chin in one of the photos), I sadly don’t think it has a sane logic purpose. She was losing her mind at this point. When that happens in the wilderness, you don’t survive. I do think it’s Kris hair, and it looks to me as the hair of a dead person, taken from the back, her laying down but head slightly elevated. I have the sense though the photos are taken by the same group of men/boys that murdered them, when they are out burying Kris and possibly Lisanne as well. If they are taken by the monkey bridge as some claim, they could have driven there as there is a road close. I can see them drinking, smoking weed, toying with the camera, jokingly taking stupid pics for hours. They have Kris’ body in the car and decide to take a pic of her too, enough to reveal it’s her but not that she’s dead. It _could_ be fake hair, knowing everyone will assume it’s Kris since it’s her trademark. It reminds me of porcelain doll hair. Plastic hair is very shiny but tangles when handled carelessly, and that color is actually common in older type dolls. And again, it looks so clean… Were it not for the hair photo, I could also see Ngobe people finding and trying out the camera, before it was decided what to do with the backpack. The ”SOS” paper looks like random trash to me, and the twig - someone mentioned it looks like what locals use to sway away mosquitos. It looks like a fast, lazy construction. Not something built for survival. I think those red bags are common supermarket bags used by everyone in this area, so that the girls had one or two in their room means nothing.
My cents, thanks
Regarding the swimming photo: this photo came from the mobile phone of Osman, as far as I've been told off the record, and there were rumours about this photo even before the photo surfaced, as osman's mother complained to the press that the police took her sons mobile phone and they never received it back. And widespread rumours at the time were that there were photos of a redhead and blonde/brunette on it, of the missing Dutch girls. Without a photo, that could have been nonsense, but with this photo, I think the rumours may have been correct. Now, Osman died on the 4th of April, 2014. This photo therefore has to be from before the 4th. I think the most likely scenario is that this swimming thing happene don the 1st. ON Monday March 31st, the girls had a very busy day, going back and forth to the children's school and the language school, trying to arrange new volunteer work, and then they had a long massage with Sigrid, in which they discussed their trip, plans and general stuff for over 1,5 hours. Nothing was mentioned about swimming, neither in their diaries which were updated. I don't think they went swimming before the 1st of April. We also have no information about the bikini's by the way. No info whether or not those bikini's were found in the girls' room by police or the parents, or not. Nothing from Miriam about wet towels brought back by the girls from a trip, yes or no. So are those bikini's also missing? If so, that is more evidence pointing towards a April 1st swim.
DeleteI am inclined to place the swimming event much later in the day. Firstly, the light of the sun has a warm tone, a warm hue which is more fitting with later afternoon light. At 11:00 we can see in the start of the Pianista photos that the light was much more bright and coming from a high angle. Which does not match the natural light in the swimming photo. My bet is that the photo was taken around 17:00, rather than before 11:00. Also, it would have taken the girls some time to get to the caldera area, or anywhere really where you can swim like that. But they were seen that morning of the 1st in a local pharmacy, supermarket and at the language school, before heading to the Pianista Trail, which is also some distance. I don't think it fits, a morning swim. More likely in my view (but this is all subjective!) is that after photo 508, they turned around and walked back. Then some of the witness statements would make sense and fit; they were seen around 15:30-16:00 by people at the start of the trail (Pedro and a man running a small tobacco shop). After that they may have gone swimming and that's where it all went wrong.
Although there is indeed the option still that the camera times are wrong and they started the trail a little while after 13:00. But then the investigators have it all wrong and the camera had a very oddly manipulated time stamp.. Indeed, the very suspicious death of that young lad Osman (another drowning...) and its timing on the whole timeline, I think it is very suspicious and it is so obvious that there is a link with this disappearance case if you deem the swimming photo legit, that I find it surprising how many people just swipe the whole photo and Osman's death aside without further interest (focusing instead on a dog which was never photographed).
But it is certainly also still possible that the swimming took place before they went on the Pianista hike and they were followed or met up that mountain by the same group they had been swimming with. But now they had bad intentions. Indeed, that could explain the absence of any more touristy photos. Going by the old timeline, the first emergency call would then also have been made VERY SOON after photo 508 was taken. It is only with the new timeline that there is another hour and a half overlap.
DeleteBut now another person has also looked into the angle of the sun in this photo: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8L_QHqDd1Fw/Xzk6aF4OzXI/AAAAAAAADOQ/uTTvsZEUdx8QpslyW-U_ibwjdBDrAfySQCLcBGAsYHQ/s640/az.jpg
And also concluded this photo (heading up to the summit) must have been taken between 11:00-11:30 am, going by computer calculations. I am still not 100% certain myself about old timeline or new timeline. I always leaned towards the old timeline, but things like this give me doubt.
True, not even the iPhone photo data have been made public. It would be so EASY to determine the old vs new timeline once and for all, based on the exif data of that single photo. But we're all kept in the dark.
About the PIN codes; yes, up until April 6th, the right pin codes were entered into the iPhone (2 sets of PIN codes), even when the phone was just switched on to look for reception. This was confirmed specifically by investigators. Then after that, there is conflicting info. I have linked to sources constantly in my blog posts. Either they entered the wrong PIN codes in or they entered no pin codes in, or they sometimes did this and then that. As I understand it, wrong PIN codes were entered also, this was not corrected (thus confirmed) by people closely linked to the case, both the relatives and investigators, when it was discussed in a national talkshow.
DeleteYes agreed, the parents discussed it openly in one TV item and they did not offer more details, but indeed, had it been an extensive phone conversation, they may have alluded to this. Therefore it may have been a short text message instead. I'd say text over whatsapp because the girls had no wifi up there.
The ball of skin was found in the jungle though. This was explicitly mentioned. The coroner and journalist were very surprised they said that anyone could stumble on it at all, as it was found as a rolled up ball, let alone in the jungle. Of course, when we do not believe anything anymore, it is very well possible that a 3rd party stored it, then strategically placed it out there 5 months after the girls went missing. I have a hard time imagining the police to do this though. The people involved, the perpetrators, seems to make just a little bit more sense (but still not a whole lot).
The night photos were all staged by a 3rd party, I am convinced of this.
oh, and one last thought. It would be very interesting to know how the Panamanian investigators matched their DNA. We are so used to hearing about DNA matching, some assume it can be done always. But it can be tricky as you need something reliable to compare it to. The girls shared a room and others have lived here too, so what did they use? Hairs, going by color? Did the parents send a saved milk tooth or something? I don’t think it’s likely the DNA is lied about, but I am curious to know.
ReplyDeleteThey could have put anything really on paper, regarding this DNA match. I am disappointed that there wasn't a public second opinion DNA match done in the Netherlands. Or if they did, then I am disappointed that the results weren't made public. Now there are even people suspecting that the bones found were not of Kris and Lisanne at all.
DeleteThanks for your thoughts Alice. I am in agreement with your view. I also think the swimming was what triggered everything. The girls may have seemed spontaneous and willing to the local young men, and when they turned around eventually and rejected their attempts to get up close and personal, this may have triggered anger. I am not certain when exactly they went swimming, but most likely seems after they walked the Pianista Trail. Two witnesses saw them come off the mountain between 15:30-16:00 and they may have decided to go for a cooling swim afterwards. Yeh they asked for a taxi apparently, so they may have taken a taxi to the Caldera area then. Either they met the boys there or they already met them on a previous day and had an appointment to meet them there.
ReplyDeleteThis is of course just a theory, but the suspicious death of Osman and the showing up of this swimming photo, said to have come from his phone (he died at April 4th), places this swimming events at least before the 4th of April. I'd say the 1st of April..
Unfortunately we have not been given any info on those strapless bikini's.... Did Miriam, the police or did the parents find those bikini's in the girls' room? Or are they missing? If they are missing, that would strengthen the swimming gone wrong theory.
Yeh that short connection on day 2, it is so so illogical and unnatural that Lisanne would have not tried calling another time right away. That she would just switch off her phone and not try calling again for a whole hour (which is what the phone data states). I think someone else was handling those phones at that point, like you said.
File 509 could be the video everyone wonders about, explaining things. Yes. We only know it was a file, not whether or not it was a photo of video file. Because they only took photos really, the assumption is that it was a photo too, BUT it is so strategically placed between the normal daytime photos and those eerie (staged?) nighttime photo's, that a very good case can be made indeed for it having been a video file.... And that is a strong theory indeed, that the photos were simply taken off the old memory card and put on a new one, minus file 509 OR the old card was formatted and then the files were put back on it.
Guide F. was found dead? When did that happen? As far as I know he is still alive and kicking?
I’m also not convinced guide P isn’t involved. The pics he posted that Juan shows are disturbing to me. How close are guide F and guide P? Did they search together? I believe P was their driver from Bocas and had met them already. I also think one of the pics he took does show a dead girl. But I think it is Lisanne there not Kris. I’m not sure this isn’t a group effort. I’d be curious to know how often these two guides have helped try to track other missing people. I’m also curious if the American killed in Bocas in 2017 had any dealings with any of these guides or the Spanish by the Sea?
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for keeping up this blog. This case has haunted me since I first heard about it years ago. It's so refreshing to see someone else who still cares about finding the truth.
ReplyDeleteIt's so frustrating the sheer number of people who are quick to dismiss it as an accident and forget about these poor girls, despite all of the evidence. The amount of comments I've seen that read "I hike a lot and trust me, it's so easy to get lost! They clearly just got lost and the night photos were taken to try finding their way in the dark! Case closed. All of you who believe otherwise are reading too much into it." As if we are all conspiracy theorists who have never set foot in a woods before. In fact, if they had spent more than five minutes reading about this case, they would know that the simple "got lost" theory doesn't add up, there are too many strange unexplained details. I also hike and travel frequently, I also know how easy it is to get lost, but that just doesn't make sense with what happened to Kris and Lisanne.
I think those of us from the US / Europe are extremely biased in favor of the accident theory because we are from privileged first-world countries, we can rely on our police and government, and we unconsciously assume the rest of the world is just as privileged. We are totally ignorant of the realities of many South American countries.
I'm sorry I have nothing of value to comment, I just really wanted to thank you for keeping up this blog. I know if this had happened to me, I would want there to be people who still cared about finding the truth. I am still hopeful that more evidence will eventually come to light.
Thank you for your kind words, Anonymous, and for reading here about this case. Yeh, it is a haunting tale. I think a lot of people who read up or view videos on many different missing persons or murder cases, felt something extra for this story, because it is just chilling to the bone, and appeals to each and everyone's inner detective I suppose. So many details known, yet so many not know at the same time. It's a big mind spin. I agree, the "they got lost" mantra is frustrating. I cannot tell you the amount of emails and comments I have recieved by now from people detailing exactly how they think the girls got lost, kept walking, fell in a ravine, tried to survive and were eaten by wild animals. Just because that sometimes happens, does not mean however that it is what happened in this case. The big test is whether or not such a scenario can stand the test of hard science and the facts. I would say it does not. But many of those people aren't interested in including the findings of the pathologist about the state and location of the bones, or the ball of skin. It simply doesn't fit in their story. Same for the fact that these bone remains were found nowhere near a ravine, so how would they have crawled out with a broken pelvis and shattered foot? Again, they just skip those problems. And as for animal predation; the bones showed nu clear or microscopic signs of animal teeth, claws or other predation signs. Why still dragging these poor wild animals into the story then? - It really tests my patience at times tbh, I must admit, because what sort of a discussion do you really have when people willy-nilly cut out details and facts? You get into the reals of bedtime stories then. Indeed, a lot of personal experiences with getting lost or getting nearly lost, or I could have gotten lost easily, all of that is interesting but it does not really apply to the facts known in this case, as I see it. The term conspiracy theorist was invented on purpose, to seal the mouths of critical thinkers, if I remember correct it was the FBI themselves who invented the term, or some organization like them. I think it has been so badly overused that it lost its power, I for one only shrug and laugh when there's another person calling me a conspiracy theorist, again. They themselves tend to be far less scientific in their approach, funny enough.
DeleteYou see them most in youtube comments, when all they did is watch a few short videos on the case, not bothered to read this blog series for all the details, but they still hammer out their premature conclusions. Ughh... Yes I agree with you, I noticed that tendency while reading many forums from many different countries. On Spanish speaking forums or discussion boards, you see a lot more people convinced they were murdered. You also read a lot more superstitious explanations there, spirits of the woods and that sort of stuff. Whereas, indeed, USA and European readers may perhaps more often appeal to 'rationality', which in their view is the most obvious and least complex explanation. Going by statistical chance, so to speak. This unfortunately overlooks the fact that statistical chance does not automatically bring you to the truth in an individual case. And they also often don't read up on latin American culture and crime problems, instead recalling their own hike in the Appalachian mountains or in Colorado. Not really automatically the same situations, I would say. And many lack the experience indeed of living in impoverished circumstances. But you need to get out of your own personal situation, I'd say, and immerse yourself in the local political/social/economical situation in Panama and Boquete, first and foremost, for as far that is possible.
Thanks, it is nice sometimes to read about someone thinking alike.
I also hope that with time, someone on their deathbed perhaps will make a
confession. Or some new info comes to light in another way.
Hi.This is tremendous work! I have read all of the five parts and would like to share my thoughts. I definitely understand where the "losters" come from - with all the unknown it is very hard to imagine a plausible scenario in which the girls get lost, yet the state of mind in which one may be while lost in the forest does make people do un-understandable things and I get that they think that people are speculating upon a highly mysterious and sensational case that could be actually in fact just due to the dangers of wilderness and impaired thinking. Still, I would rather say that I'm 80% in favor of a murder because of phone logs on the very first day. That is, if really they are correct and the girls called 112 that inself means they had a real emergency, evenmore if it is still daylight, if it's an injury I am adamant that the girls would not have tried to call for help only twice and then decided to wait until next day to call again, even to save battery. I would rather say they were abducted shortly after those first calls to emergency services. Future attempts to use the phone do seem to be done by the abductor(s). About the night photos though, I am less sure, all scenarios seem very unlikely - it could be a massive red herring but then the sophistication of the idea makes it possible but quite improbable to me - if it was an attempt to prove that the girls were lost than they wouldn't spend hours taking pictures of the same place. The best explanation I have read here is that the one of the girls used it on automatic mode as a beacon to find their way back to the other (maybe to get water/help?) - Do the timings of the pictures check out with how the camera model works on automatic mode? - this would mean the girls maybe escaped and were recaptured that night. Given all the information I have read I rather have the feeling of a kidnapping/raping/murder by at least two locals rather than one unique serial kller. I also strongly feel there are different layers of cover-ups and fucking-ups, local and governmental which also would explain a lot of unexplainable dicrepancies in witness statements, tampering of camera etc.
ReplyDeleteGiven all the information, the backpack, shorts and body remains definitively seem to be planted even if we can not exclude a forensic mystery that we cannot fathom the explanation of. One theory about the backpack I have not read here could also be that someone unrelated to the abduction just found/stole the backpack -either kept it by fear to get in trouble -either kept it to later sell the contents - and then planted it two months because they couldn't live with the stress anymore. This may have lead to the then planted remains and could explain discrepancies between remains - girls could have been disposed off in different ways and/or at different times and they felt they had to plant some remains of both girls to stop the investigation.
This is what my logic says to me given the information I read but I can not say I completely exclude the lost theory because there always may be a scenario in which all this makes sense and noone has found it, given all the unknown.
You can't ever dismiss the possibility that they did get lost, I hold on to that point as the reality is that no one knows what happened that day, and the only clues lie in the recovered phones and the camera. So you do need to keep your mind open to the different possibilities.
DeleteStill, your own thoughts do line up with mine for the most part, it is hard to talk about whatever happened to the two friends on April 1st as there is so very little to go on, and yet we do know the photography stopped suddenly, and we do have the two emergency calls to guide us. One thing that has become clear to me over time is that what we know of their progress that day, and the Kremers own retracing of the rout later, is that you can cover a fair distance on that trail in just two hours. The distance from the start of the route to the top of the Mirador is generally accepted as taking two hours, and this is up-hill walking. The possible camp-site discovered by Elvis Gonzales days later in the forest was said be about 90 minutes walk away from the trail itself, and these two points of reference are quite significant to consider as the emergency calls from the two came at around 4.40pm and their last photograph for the day was at at 2pm. So two and a half hours after the final photograph of the day.
If you look at the map -https://i.imgur.com/fkpOyIz.jpg and where the Gonzales camp is said to have been discovered, and assume it is genuinely a trace of the two friends, then you can see that if they had met someone up there on the trail, someone very familiar with the area, who perhaps offers them a shortcut back to Boquete, and takes them into the forest, where their fears begin to mount, and leads to the two phone calls eventually, then the timings do all match up more or less.
That's all just a theory I stress. But clearly the two friends were somewhere that afternoon, and the days after, and if you go back to the reality f how much distance just two hours walking can achieve, and think on the idea that where their remains are found, and perhaps the phone logs with Kris' apparent sudden failure to be able to access her own phone anymore, then that is a good three or fours days later. Meaning that potentially, if lost, they would have had between 30 to 40 hours of daylight in which to be walking and moving on! And when you look at the distances just two hours can achieve (the distance to the Gonzales camp and to climb to the Mirador summit) then the idea that they were roaming around for three to four days and only made it to the rope bridge location is.... difficult to understand. It's almost baffling....
One other element of this that interests me though is the reality that it takes about 14 hours to walk from Boquete to Alto Romero. From what I can gather this is about the only way to travel between the two locations, we see that helicopters were used to do so in the initial search and later to get television investigators to Romero. So cross-country is the normal way of life for the people who live there. 14 hours... does this not suggest that anyone travelling between the two points would likely need to camp overnight? Certainly they could set off before dawn, and arrive after dusk safely thanks to experience and torchlight, but I would have to think that a camp overnight is not at all uncommon. Which if true means that certain points on the trail would be favoured to sleep under, such as a landmark like the rope crossings perhaps...?
It's worth considering that to these people who live there this sort of outdoors existence is a way of life, a world away from our own experiences in the west, but perfectly normal for them. This is their world, and this is their everyday reality.
Hi Dave,
Deletethe thing that always makes me discard the Lost theory, is the hard evidence found. Warning, I'll just rant a bit now about the forensics in general, not aimed at you Dave, I know you are really open minded and thorough and fair in all your analysis.
But in general, I just don't see it rationally possible for a slap of skin from Lisanne to have survived on its own for 5 months, out in that jungle, and to be found at the end of August in a very good state. Hardly decomposed, cut in an unnatural shape. Found as a small ball in the jungle?? Who can find such a thing, and at a time also when there were no more large scale searches for these girls. Coroner himself was adamant: that piece of skin must have been stored somewhere cool and dark for all that time. Yet, it was found in the jungle in the open air. It hadn't been in the water, which the pathologist would have detected under the microscope otherwise. Just like the bones hadn't been submerged in water; the bone marrow was completely dry inside upon dissection and inspection.
It's just impossible. Especially when you consider the pelvic and rib bone from Kris were found completely bare from any tissues or skin and in a late stage of decomposition by June already. (And why do Lost believers never come up with a natural, plausible explanation for the phosphates on Kris' bones, but not on those from Lisanne?) Coroners verdict: human intervention was involved. Why do I never hear Lost believers explain this piece of evidence, if it was all a case of girls getting lost and perishing? You cannot nitpick like that, when all those remains were found in the same vicinity. One bone degrades quickly, the other slowly, the skin from Lisanne not at all... No, for all the talk about people thinking that a crime took place are 'conspiracy theorists', to me the Lost believers are in fact the most fantastical and irrational. Just because someone cán get lost in that area does not mean they did get lost, or stayed lost there. Statistical chance is not a solid measuring stick for predictions of what really happened, just look at all the actual murders and kidnappings and the crime that actually does take place, notwithstanding the statistics of safety. That sort of deduction is just not helping here.
I just meant to say that as little as the chance may be - I too believe that all the evidence seems to point to foul play - we may be just be missing too much data and/or scientific knowledege to have the correct analysis of the situation. As I said there are forensic mysteries that are understood a long time later. I am not saying that that is what I think happened here but actually if you really want to be scientifically thorough, you can't 100% discard an explanation that one just may not be in capacity to process or imagine given the current data and knowledge.
DeleteHi anonymous, yeh I think most people stretch that part first, before explaining their own beliefs in this case. I certainly do, this blog is full of statements about how difficult it is to be certain of anything, as vital evidence is missing. So it does come down to weighing and analyzing and interpreting the incomplete evidence and clues we dó have. And of course, some people will then come to a different conclusion. But that shouldn't hold people back to come with their own opinions. Preferably well argumented. My pet peeve is that some people are really loud and really dismissive of others, about their believe the girls got lost, but in the process they just chuck out and forget about vital forensic (hard) facts. Let's hope this case will be solved with time
DeleteF. might cover up for someone who he is close to (his son)
ReplyDeleteIf he did it himself it would take a huge amount of courage to act like he did (investigating the girls room on his own, etc.)
I think it’s unlikely that Eileen is involved into it. Would be insightful to get to know how she thought of F. and if he approached her before looking inside the girls rooms. He maybe just wanted someone not native to be with him which makes him less suspect
If she is involved though it could lead to false information
I remember reading a part about Eileen, but I’m not sure if it was mentioned what she thought of F. She went away shortly after. Did F in some way threaten her or scared her?
I pretty much got the answers to the following points already after reading about it. Very suspicious
[Who took the picture at the bathing place? It looks to me that these 2 women on these pics are definitely Kris and Lisanne. Especially the cheeks of the dark haired woman give it away which look so much like a smiling Lisanne
would be interesting to know if F‘s son knew them well (the two males)
Where they the same males from the Taxi?
how did this pic make it to the surface? If the murderer knew about it he surely don’t wanted it to exist
I guess the two man died after the pic appeared (I can’t remember it)]
The night time pic which might show Lisanne‘s Jawline is a too good not to be true match to the other pic of her. It even „connects“ her hair on the edited photo someone posted.
The hair of Kris on these pics seem in a very cleaned condition. They might have been cut off or scalped before. She also could have died in the following day after they met their abductor on April 1st. Or she died later and her murderer washed that hair. But they way this pic was shot it looks to me that the murderer (I assume he is the one who took the pictures) tried his best to make the viewer not question if this hair is still attached the head. But then again the next photo was only taken 18 seconds later and there is a photo missing! 581! There might have been two pictures of Kris‘ hair, but why are there only 18 seconds between 580 and 582? He surely would have take his time for this picture. Like you know this picture makes the viewer really question if it’s still attached to the head. I looked at it for a while and not once did I think that I saw anything hinting to a face or the back of her head. Or maybe he already had a photo of it (like a Polaroid) and took a photo of that to save time (bit off a stretch). But then again it might be hard to take such a photo of another photo outside in these conditions. I know, a lot of speculations. And btw: the Polaroid says 3:54 while the timestamp in your blog post says 1:49:47.
Could it be that the murderer tried to edit the timestamp to make it look like it’s a quick unprepared shot? But then again it could just be a wig.
My theory is that the night time photos were taken after Lisanne died and both these photos (of the hair and Lisanne’s jaw line) are some kind of a trophy or mocking to investigators or their families. I guess he couldn’t have taken such a photo of Lisanne‘s jawline otherwise (but doesn’t even matter that much). Furthermore I think it is not unlikely that they were held at some place which wasn’t too far from the place the night pics were taken (atleast Lisanne alive).
It’s also possible that Lisanne tried to escape in the night before the night photos were taken and had a very bad injury. Like she fell from quite a high altitude. I wonder if the the leg bones from here showed anything pointing to this, but obviously she could still have a non injured leg after an alleged accident.
...
...
ReplyDeleteI think a big problem in general is the non existent willingness of the natives to help with investigations. They also probably think it will hurt tourism and it’s also been 6 years now, so how would it help (from their point of view). Furthermore:
Another thing is the sudden appearance of the backpack and bones after there was a 30.000 $ reward
The murderer must have known these people who found the bag and bones and wanted to help them with the money maybe
F. was part of the people who found some bones (the boot with the foot still inside)
There are also the deaths of people who were involved and some arguments on social media which point to F. and his son.
And something I wanted to add: there was a Reddit thread about crimes with eerie/gruesome photos and this case was mentioned. Someone described the twig with parts of the bag as kind of a squatter for bugs, mosquitos or flies. I asked where he got that from and he answered that some Redditor with latin american roots pointed that out back when these photos were released (in another Reddit thread). That’s how indigenous people there made them sometimes.
Imo it’s unlikely that Lisanne (or Kris) knew about that. Another hint that another person was present at the place where the night time photos were taken.
I didn’t read that anywhere in your blog posts - bare with me, I skipped some parts, but read like 80% atleast.
Thanks for all the work you put in! To me personally it seems pretty clear the girls were victims of foul play and a lot of evidence hints towards a specific group of people. What a shame the panama police and authorities were beyond useless. But I can understand the families wan to be left alone. It doesn’t look like the murderers will ever get punished and it won’t bring them their daughters back.
yeh that was a great find by Toni B., the jawline photo indeed matches perfectly with that night photo. Makes you wonder who would make such a photo of their friend, it can hardly have been a selfie. Yeh, the hair photo, for all we know we are looking at a decapitated head :( A lot is cut off by the composition choice of whomever took this photo. It gives me goosebumps just to think of this. But a lot of people cannot believe that any murderer(s) would take the time to go out and set up this whole fake trail; planting the jeans shorts, the backpack, making all these staged night photos in the dark of night, handling the phones to make it look like the girls were still trying to call. I must admit that it is quite a complicated scheme, if true. But I don't think it is impossible or that far-fetched. Not when your life and freedom are on the line.
DeleteAh yes, I will add that info to the blog post too. No the time on the Polaroid is a time which a TV program put on it, when they aired that photo. Once the night photos were all leaked, the real times became clear and it is a guess for any outsider like myself, but the rest of their date and timestamp seem correct, so Juan and I opt to believe the 01:49,47 AM time. I will add the photo copy of it which has this timestamp, you can see it here (extract 6 hours from the timestamp):
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LsCzae6rwhI/X3uZnKlyC9I/AAAAAAAADa8/jTW_TjvA0fwmIriNrFATNVFM7PKB13J9QCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h480/IMG_0580%2B%25281%2529.jpeg
Yeh I am also leaning towards those explanations. Trophy photos/false trail evidence. Lisanne may have escaped her captors temporarily :( If she fell then she broke her foot in many places (as shown in the foot of her that was found), but then I still believe the bones were selected carefully by a 3rd party and only a handful were planted. To stop the searching operations, to show the parents that the girls had died, to make it look like they perished in the jungle after having gotten lost, but none of these bones could show a cause of death. And indeed, that 30.000 dollar reward may have played a role in the sudden appearance of all these belongings and bones suddenly. It could also explain the anger and distrust of the Akto Romero locals when the crew of the Travel Channel approached them. They literally said they were pissed off that they never received the reward money. That was about as far as they wanted to help now. Not much at all. They even lied about the creek of photos 507 and 508 being on the Boquete side of the mountain.
Ok, wow that is the first time I read that info. That the red plastic on a stick resembles the way the locals make a bug squatter/repellent. Very interesting! Could imply that a native was there to make it. I know, the girls wouldn't know about it, and if they wanted to attract anyone's attention with it, they wouldn't make such a small thing IMO. They had colourful tops on, they could have torn some of that fabric off and placed it on sticks instead then. No I never knew about that info, reddit is a bit of a hellhole sometimes to weed through I must admit.
Thanks for sharing the info and your thoughts
"But a lot of people cannot believe that any murderer(s) would take the time to go out and set up this whole fake trail; planting the jeans shorts, the backpack, making all these staged night photos in the dark of night, handling the phones to make it look like the girls were still trying to call. I must admit that it is quite a complicated scheme, if true. But I don't think it is impossible or that far-fetched."
DeleteI'm one of the last to embrace 'conspiracy' theory or make wild statements, but like you the fact for me is that actually - Most of this *is* perfecty possible to my mind. All you have to do is accept the very plausible idea that the publicity and reward money put on offer gradually became an overpowering fixation, a prize there for the taking.
To these poor people that offer of reward for information would be like the lure of thinking you could, and would, win the national Lottery, but you have to be willing to try for it to have the dream become reality... So while on the face of it the idea someone would go out into the Panamanian wilderness and possibly a few hours walk away from civilisation, sit in the dark, and take Photographs to suggest the prescence of the two friends all seems very far fetched to our western understanding, you do have to put yourself into the world of the people who do actually live out there in that Wilderness. To them walking these trails is a fact of life, they do it every day. Camping outdoors is a fact of life. Walking to and from Boquete and Alto Romero would be a fact of life, one of the things you just have to do because there is no other way to do it. And so to me while it does seem far-fetched on the face of it if you do think it through there IS some legitimate logic and sense behind the idea someone out there in Panama, and who lives an outdoors life, would stage those photographs - they have the backpack, they have the camera, they have studied its content, and in order to be in with a real chance to claim that vast reward on offer all they have to do is provide a 'finish' to the story told by that camera's contents, and set a trail that brings the answers to the authorities and the parents...
Seven days and night have passed since the April 1st photographs ceased. Seven long days and nights, this is over a full working week to you and I. And such a length of time is hard to explain between the two sets of photographs, but there is nothing in those April 8th photographs to suggest either of the two friends IS there. Alive. And that has always been one of the strangest things about them as a set. The two friends were very familiar with their camera, they took many flawless 'Selfies', but all we see in this set is a rather clumsy use of it. Various shots seem to have someone's finger over the camera lens, but if so how then are they holding it to have a finger over the lens? It's dark, but to take a picture of herself think on how Lisanne would have held the camera, pointed towards her, and she misses the shot?! But doesn't try for another...? How very convenient this all is. Because of these photographs we work on this presumption that the two friends were still alive these seven days into their dissapearance, or at least one of them was still alive, but on balance I do seriously wonder whether they were by this point. Because from the moment their final photograph was taken on April 1st all there is is the vague idea they were indeed still alive. No actual proof however. Just two ghosts who may have been out there...
Hi Dave, I'll copy to you what I posted to another person in the comments about an accident scenario. This is what it all comes down to for me:
DeleteThe thing is this: It may be out there, but I haven't once seen a convincing, factual Lost scenario ever. Where someone sticks to the actual, known and proven evidence, and explains how it all fits together. Not once I've seen an actual MAP based on the real directions these rivers behind the Pianista flow in (some flow to towards the Pacific Ocean, others to the Caribbean sea at the other side), connecting a place where these girls could have fallen, sustained the serious injuries of a completely broken pelvis and shattered foot and where they could have disappeared - and then connect it on this official map with the actual location where their handful of bones and belongings were found, which is on more flat land around Alto Romero.
What's more, it has to be a place which Sinaproc hasn't searched, a place where their men haven't scaled down with ropes and which the sniffer dogs haven't dissected, so the slopes around the summit of the Pianista are out of the question, because they found nothing there: no trace of their scent, no signs of a recent slide or fall, nothing.
Then prove that this place is connected with an actual river who's current floats in the right direction to deposit their bodies and belongings convincingly to the land around Alto Romero, the equivalent of 14 walking hours up north. And explain how they all could have floated up north through rock littered small rivers, that wind through the landscape. Rivers which had not seen the rain season yet in those first week of their disappearance, before anyone looking for them could intercept and find them or any of their bones/skulls etc. With the maps and data, that should be possible for anyone who seriously considers they got lost and fell somewhere.
Then keep in mind that the bones were found on land (!), some behind and almost under a tree, with dry bone marrow (!) upon autopsy (see coroners report about this on my blog). So the Accident Theorist should also point out exactly which flooding took place between April 1st - June 16th 2014 there, allowing for these remains to make it out of the hypothetical water, all the way behind a tree on land.
With all due respect but as long as people can't or won't prove these basic things, keep overlooking the hard evidence that is just too difficult to incorporate in their theory and keep calling Foul Play scenario's farfetched, I call bulshit on their vague Lost Scenario's, based on a hunch or on subjective impressions of 'probability'. Give us the case facts and wrap your story together in detail, because there are quite a few facts known in this case, but a lot of people ignore them or refuse to incorporate them in their theories. With regards to Foul Play scenario's, I have seen a lot more convincing stories out there, doing just that. People just shouting 'conspiracy theory!!' or 'Blair witch fantasy!' rarely contribute anything positive and just try to ridicule and take the proverbial high-ground without contributing convincing and factual specifics with what DID happen in their opinion.
"The thing is this: It may be out there, but I haven't once seen a convincing, factual Lost scenario ever. Where someone sticks to the actual, known and proven evidence, and explains how it all fits together."
DeleteI will defend their point of view here, because they have that right to be critical.
Most people, like me, come by this story and at first despite some odd elements to it it does look like two young and inexperienced tourists who got themselves lost in another countrys wilderness and sadly passed away. I don't criticise anyone who thinks as much therefore as I started out feeling exactly the same.
It has taken me over a year of thinking on it, doubting those peculiar phone records, discovering your in-depth blog with its mine of information and observation, to begin to seriously doubt that view and be able to use the data to check the facts, and the landscape of the Pianista, to arrive at a point where actually, I do now see the strong liklihood that there was foul play at work here. In some shape there is dishonesty at work here. A great lie.
Most people aren't as invested in this strange disappearance as you or I, there is no ill-will in that, they just do not have all the information, they have not the interest in it, and likely aren't even aware of your extensive work on the subject. An additional point that has to be accepted is that a great deal of the problem lies in the fact that there never was an inquest into the two friends disappearance. No agency ever gathered all the data, all the available evidence, and made the effort to gather statements and interviews to build a coherent picture of what actually happened across those first weeks. The Panamanians took charge of this, and almost certainly deliberately scuttled any chances of a serious investigation, both then, and forever thereafter. All we have as you know is a huge huge mass of conflicting evidence. There are few 'facts' to this case as nearly every point is open to debate and has a counter-point against it. How telling it is that when they went into the Pianista wilderness last year to make their documentary the 'Lost in the Wild' team gathered more first-hand evidence and witness statements that any official body did - this independent television crew demonstrated that the closest you will get to reopening the case, in having any inquest, actually lies in this kind of journalism... people with the means and the money going out there and firsthand examining the surviving facts, examining the Pianista trail itself at length, and personally finding the relevant people to question face to face.
If you kept up that sort of attention on the fate of Lisanne and Kris, had television journalists visiting Panama to do some serilous research, then I do think there is a very good chance that someone would eventually talk. Some new and important information come to light.
But without it.... no. The window is closing on any chances of a break-thru ever happening, unless these kind of people keep up the pressure and keep the story of Lisanne and Kris current and in the minds of people.
Thanks for your thoughts Dave. Oh I do really understand where people are coming from when they find a foul play scenario too far-fetched. I believed myself for years that the girls just got lost and perished. Such a rant is not aimed at leisure readers about this case. But when I read sites like reddit, where seemingly die-hard followers of this case go on and on about how insane any foul play scenario is, but never come up with a convincing and detailed Accident scenario that respects the hard facts of this case, it just becomes annoying at some point. Shooting everybody else's attempts to make sense of the strange facts, while respecting the forensic findings, just seems very negative at some point. By all means, we can all agree to disagree at the end of the day, but just breaking scenario's down ("conspiracy theory!", "Hollywood fake script!") is not constructive but pretty destructive. I often ask people who try to burn down my arguments, to come up with a scenario of their own. Many are not really interested in that. Just shooting things off from the sideline is more fun.
DeleteFor all the talk that people who think that a crime took place are 'conspiracy theorists', to me the Lost scenario unfortunately seems rational only on the surface. Not when you dig a little deeper. But I love the fact that there are different opinions regarding this case. That people think in different directions, are sparring with each other. I just often miss a serious attempt to constructively and comprehensively make an argumentation for a Lost scenario, in which the forensic findings are respected and the state and location of the bones for instance are believably explained.
And the same goes for the Travel Channel team. I agree with you, they did a great job. But you can read so many negative comments below their video (or below my video recording their episode of Lost in the Wild, when it was still up on youtube). I'd say over half the comments I read were negative, saying they were making rubbish tv, over-dramatizing things, nothing serious to bring in this case. But like you said; they did more for this case than mostly any individual sofar, minus a journalist like Adelita Coriat perhaps. Brought us footage of the first cable bridge, showed just how far it is from the Pianista summit; interviewed some important people including the pathologist who investigated the bones and a local criminologist. They even went to Alto Romero and spoke with the couple who found the bag. But somehow there is a legion of people out there who love to bash.
DeleteIt's true that a lost of facts and intel has been wasted and lost by the investigators. But some things are known. The bones were investigated by a pathologist who seems to think independently, going by his media statements (even though he does not want his name and face to be known). We know more or less where the bones were found, where the bag was found. We know about the state of the ball of skin, about the dates when all these things were discovered, officially at least. We know what the weather was like, what the geography of the place is like and who mingled into it all with statements to the media. We have photos which seem legit, the daytime and nighttime photos. We have the call logs. Of course those may have all been messed with theoretically, but unless that is actually proven, I like to think they are correct. These are not a lot of facts, but the challenge is (for many people at least), to come up with a scenario proposition which does justice to these elements, while trying to convincingly fill in the blanks. And what is 'convincing', that is subjective.
"For all the talk that people who think that a crime took place are 'conspiracy theorists', to me the Lost scenario unfortunately seems rational only on the surface. Not when you dig a little deeper."
DeleteYou can't expect every detail in a disappearance to have a transparent answer, or everything to make perfect sense. Being perfectly honest the reality to what happened to Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon on April 1st and the following days and weeks IS a mystery. I don't have a Crystal Ball, no one does, so no one knows. And yet some claim they do. But I think it worth reminding that the blunt reality is they didn't get 'Lost', and neither were they 'murdered' - the fact of the matter is that what actually happened is that on the late afternoon of April 1st they vanished, completely and utterly vanished. They dropped off the face of the earth for all intents and purposes. As far as is known no one ever saw them, heard them, or had any knowledge of them after that morning, the recovered photographs appear to show them that afternoon happily walking on the trail, and they suddenly stop. They had effectively ceased to exist by the end of that day...
Two months later a backpack and its contents were found, and this led to a few meagre remains.
Even the recovery of Phones and the camera in the backpack give scarcely any answers other than they reveal a photo-log of their journey that day showing that they were walking the trail over the Pianista and abruptly stopped taking any photographs after arriving at that stream. The fact their phones never reconnect to a signal surely also demonstrates that they never returned to Boquete or civilisation, but remained on the other side of the Mirador. The Phone and Camera answered very little on what their fate was on the whole, but it is very significant to this argument that rather than answers they in fact left a long list of enormous questions, and no end of doubts, because despite these two items contents there is nothing to conclusively show the two were definitely still alive in the following days after the 1st April.
What we do have though is the finding two months later of their backpack and the very few remains, and I think you can certainly draw some educated guesses from all of that at least..
[cont..]But Is there a way they could have become Lost? Well yes, I can look at a map and using a little imagination and the supposed 'Gonzales camp' as a potential reference point I can see a way in which the two friends may have been roaming far into the thick forest having lost the Pianista trail, eventually perhaps coming across one of the tributary rivers that leads to the first rope bridge and feeds the main Culabera, and they follow that tributary. All the way to the first rope bridge, and perhaps to the second bridge a little further on: https://i.imgur.com/2Bg4KJd.jpg
DeleteThis IS just a suggested scenario I stress, as no one knows anything as a fact and I certainly don't claim anything. By following this route they may have bypassed possible areas of clear meadow and habitation. It is a possibility, but does not answer how or WHY they went so badly off the main trail that afternoon, and doesn't necessarily explain those strange Phone logs either. The other concern also is that as I said up above you can see how much ground can be covered in just two hours walk, knowing that no one knew where they were, that they were on their own, the two friends would have had a great motivation to move fast and had at least the 30 hours of daylight over the three days to the moment the I-Phone is suddenly being misused, and suggesting something had happened suddenly to Kris Kremers. So we would have to accept that they roamed with urgency, but aimlessly, for at least those 30-odd hours. A stretch, but possibly it IS true, it could be what happened.
That then this would leave the question of their final fate, what brought them to a halt and just what happened to their bodies and their backpack - were their remains found and the items scavenged? It's possible yes. But then why dispose of the bodies? For the money in the backpack? Perhaps yes. But that is still a stretch to my mind, you would just take the money and the backpack as... who is to ever know? There is no rational or plausible reason why a scavenging local would spend time and effort disposing of found remains like this. Even my semi-impartial stance on the two's disappearance fails in coming up with a convincing motive where an opportunist native might choose to dismember and dispose of two bodies in this given situation.
And then there are the peculiar phone logs, their lack of any interest in their phones those days and nights after, even on the 8th April apparently the camera is of more interest than the remaining Phone. These are all important points, and while I do tend to feel the overall weight of evidence supports a more suspicious chain of events happening I can still accept the possibility they did indeed get themselves lost. Even though that option leaves an awful lot of very serious questions about their decisions and the circumstances surrounding their final days and their few remains...
But we must remember - they vanished on April 1st, completely vanished, and were never seen or heard from again. So there are no clear answers here, just a mass of strange and puzzling evidence left behind. And this why it is a story that fascinates people who discover it.
[Cont...]Just to add: I've said this before, but the single biggest turning point in the disappearance of these two friends is the finding of their backpack. That sudden finding of this key item, after two months of absolutely no trace of the two whatsoever, just fascinates me. I do see it as potentially the key to understanding what actually happened to the two, and I don't think enough attention has been given to seriously studying the questions behind its discovery and its timing in the overall timeline of events.
DeleteWhy? Why did it turn up when it did. You know my thoughts on that, I strongly suspect it was 'found' for the reward money on offer, and by relation the discovery of it was designed to lead upstream to discover select remains and a pair of distinctive denim shorts left just down from the rope bridge. And who knows, it may just be that those night photo's are a part of this scheme, as the whole trail of 'evidence' and the 'story' it tells is so convenient I can't help but have strong suspicions there IS truth to the theory... on this basis even the missing photograph makes a sort of sense as to make the 'story' work whatever it originally showed had to go in order to make the story work.
If you accepted the logic of the above scenario with an open mind then it suggests that whatever happened on April 1st and thereafter is less likely to be the "Lost" scenario. And whatever your thoughts are - "Lost", or "Foul Play" - pause a few moments and accept that your view needs to take into account that backpack and its discovery: WHY did is turn up? Why did it turn up WHEN it did, and WHERE it did.
Because when you step back from this sad story the fact is - everything we know revolves around that find, and what was in that bag. Someone decided to return it and in doing so they (recklessly) made sure that what may have been a 'perfect Crime' (the two had vanished into thin air) became something that people around the world would look upon and frown.
And arguably that 'discovery' of the backpack is a classic example of the power of greed. Greed overpowering common sense and caution and leading to a serious lapse in judgement. Because if the bag had never been found then nothing would be known of the two's disappearance whatsoever...
This case is so troubling because by every measure it seems like it could have been properly closed with halfway intelligent police work.
ReplyDeleteIt’s also incredibly tempting with such lack of evidence and gaps in the timeline to start seeing a conspiracy theory around every rock and photo. I think the main piece of evidence that steers things in this direction is the backpack – it is without a doubt incredibly strange that it was found so clean, intact, with both phones, the camera, their bras, etc several months later.
We know at 1:00 on April 1st the girls were at the continental divide, and having fun. I do not find it particularly unusual they decided to continue onward a bit, as the day was beautiful and they had plenty of time left in the day. It’s incredibly easy on a hike to “not want it to end” especially when you’re having a great time. There is also the theory they thought it was a loop trail, and continued hiking for several hours expecting to return back to the start.
We know after 3 hours of continuing forward, something went wrong to make both girls attempt to dial 112. We also know over the next 5 days, both phones were regularly powered on at more or less regular interval to check for signal, dozens of times or to attempt calls. This fact is where the “Killer” theory fails for me. Why would a person actively harming, stalking, or holding captive these two girls allow them to keep their phones for days and days? It is not beyond the pale of reason to think the girls after day 1 were lost on one of the indigenous trails, or had gone off the trail, and at that point its game over (why we will never know The most reasonable scenario here is that one of them got injured (or even both injured) and decided to “stay put” for a while until they could either get a phone signal or help arrives. They also may have alternatively decided to follow the river, since most amateur survival advice always says “follow water to civilization.”
Day 7 the phone checks stop. At this point, one of the girls may have died, or been incapacitated. They would have likely been drinking jungle water and suffering extreme dysentery. Mix that with lack of food, and you no longer are going to make decisions that remotely make sense. The night photos are again puzzling, but I see nothing particularly sinister. Perhaps Lisanne saw a plane or helicopter, or thought they heard someone, so for a span of 3 hours attempted to signal or ward off whatever they thought they saw. April 11th the phone is powered on one last time, and that’s all we have as far as any “phone check” and evidence either girl is still alive.
I believe sometime between April 8th and shortly after April 11th, both girls had succumb to injuries or illness. A local or guide may have even found the dead girl or girls, kept the backpack, and simply didn’t want involved as the person who found the backpack (particularly if male, or a local guide) is highly likely to be at the top of the suspicion list. After a while, they simply put the pack in a location they knew it would be found, to end the investigation. With the “killer” option, you would have never found the backpack, phones, camera, or money. Clearly the backpack was placed by the river, but that does not necessarily mean it was placed or kept with ill intent.
So that’s my take; several things that still are unsolved:
- Missing photo (again, this conspiracy of some Panamanian mastermind photo shopping pictures, and putting the card into a computer to manually delete, I find too outlandish).
- Kris shorts found on a rock (although I have also read some reports they were also found in the river).
Several things that also make this case seem more complex:
- Horrible third world police work and search and rescue work.
- Bizarre guide Feliciano.
I know people have been working on this case for years and it is likely far past the point of being definitively solved. That is a tragedy, because 6 years ago the pieces would have been there to solve this puzzle if the right people had been involved.
Thanks for sharing your analysis of this case Zach. It's true, quite a lot of forensics has been missed or destroyed in the process at the time, making it very hard to 'solve' this case now, 6+ years down the line. Short of someone stepping up and giving new witness statements or bringing up new evidence. Regarding the last things you mention being unsolved, I think there are a lot more elements to this story which cannot be explained by a lost scenario. Not last the strange state of the round ball of skin found at the end of August, still being in a very early stage of decomposition according to the pathologist. Which does not match the 5 month period since the girls supposedly passed away. And why were their bones found in the same vicinity, so close to housing and farms and cattle and all that? If a local found their bag and planted it secretly, then why would he or she not just hand it in to police and claim the 30.000 dollar reward?
DeleteI've got dozens of remaining questions listed at the end of my main blog post, I think that a natural death scenario does not answer most of those questions either.... It remains a bizarre worrying case.
Thanks for your thoughts, best wishes
I am pretty convinced it was foul play, but I also like to discuss/reason on other theories.
ReplyDeleteConcerning the lost or accident scenarios, my personal logic leads me to believe what follows.
1)
If they girls got simply lost then I think they would have try to call the host family first, then the language school, then the families and, why not, the guide F. They had a hike on the Volcan Baru the following day so they surely had his phone number registered on their mobiles. If there were lost who better than a local guide could try to get them out of trouble and regain the right path?
2) if one of the girl got injured at some point and she was immobilized, then I think the fact they tried to call the emergency numbers is more likely.
Anyway I understand this is my logic and not everyone's, but the fact they NEVER tried to call the host family, the school or their families is so strange. OK, they needed to save the batteries, but I don't think this justifies the fact they never even try to call the ones I mentioned twice above, at least once...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here Marco.
Delete1. I agree. We know from their diaries that Lisanne especially was homesick in her last days and missed her parents a lot. I find it hard to accept that the girls would have been out there for 11 days at least with free access to their phones, camera and such, but not once did Lisanne try calling her parents, supposedly. Not a single note, not a single photo explaining what happened, no video message made with the digital camera. Only vague night photos of the same trees and sky over and over. Yes they would normally have tried to call the local host family or even the guide, indeed. 112 is a Dutch emergency system. The host family and guide were nearby, perhaps the limited cell reception would have allowed them to make a call to a nearby phone. But they didn't even try it once.
2. If one got injured, they would have been found. That area behind the trail was combed through, not for weeks but for months. In fact, in the august 2014 video of the Kremers retracing their daughters step, there is still a professional team seen passing by at the end of the video. They were not there, Sinaproc confirmed this. They turned the area upside down and these are weathered local professionals. Sniffer dogs did not pick up on any scent either.
best wishes
Hi Scarlet! First, I want to tell you that you did a great work I really love your work not only on that case but on other you write about. I orginally get to know that case thanks to a french-candadian podcast and a few more videos both one in French and other in English. I also read the article that Romain made about the case and listened to his interview with the same podcast hosts. I'm sure Kris and Lisanne were murdered probably for their organs or maybe they see something they were not supposed to. For me if it was really an accident. Why taking so much cryptic pictures at night? Why not recording yourself telling what happen? They stay for days in the jungle. Aron Ralston did documented while his arm was trapped between rocks. But without dismissing completly the theory of the accident. If one did get injured that day on the trail I think maybe someone use their need of help to their advantage and hurt them. I also think that Feliciano know more than he told. He enter two times in their room and the bones were found close to his house if I recall. Furthermore, the missing picture 509 is weird I know camera have glitches, but completly deleted one single photo.
ReplyDeleteSadly, I think we will never know Kris parents don't want anything to do with people who investigates anymore. Which I understand they also need to move on or maybe the Pannamian authorities give them maybe something that we wil never know and that they choose to reveal the public.
Thank you for reading,
"I also think that Feliciano know more than he told. He enter two times in their room and the bones were found close to his house if I recall."
DeleteHe is a very experienced guide, he might even be the most experienced and knowledgeable man to be found in that area of Panama, as he has walked it extensively all his life.
Somewhere on this blog one comment he made at the time (he makes it twice actually) is about Black Vultures circling the area. This hasn't been picked up on. The fact that the Panamanian wilderness has vultures is an interesting detail, it tells us Guide F is familiar with the significance of their sightings when in a pack and so would have a very good idea if there were bodies out there...
What is particularly significant here however is that it does tell us that if the two friends really did come to disaster at a Cable bridge, and eventually pass away there, then that spot becomes a target for Vultures - if Guide F's experience is correct. Given its significance and landmark status in the area a Cable bridge that is suddenly regularly swooped on by a flock of vultures would escape no ones notice. People would see, people would know what it means. So what it does lend significant weight to (for me) is the idea that in fact the two friends final resting place was never below a cable bridge at all. Indeed it might not even be on the river...
Black Vultures. I wonder how common they are in Panama and its forests?
That is a brilliant comment and observation David. Sometimes there are such simple things which we overlook. Just like Juan suddenly noticing this week that the Wildebeast shoe from Lisanne looked completely different when it was first pictured as it was found, behind the tree, compared to what it looked like shortly afterwards, when photographed by officials. From dry and with clear coloures, the shoe soon after looked completely soaking wet, dark, dirty, muddy. What happened there? Why did officials present us the shoe as if it was just fished out of a pond? Anyway, the vultures comment is excellent because yes, if locals had seen vultures in April or May of 2014, they would have noticed it right away and people would have traced whatever attracted those birds. Because there was a 30.000 dollar reward on the line at some point for whomever found the girls. So is this another clue that the girls did not in fact die behind the mountain, out in the wilderness there?
DeleteThank you for the kind words anonymous and for sharing your thoughts here. Yes luckily the interest in this case has really picked up the past year or so. Every week new podcasts and youtube videos appear. I speak some French but the podcast with Romain, well the Canadian French of the presenters was really really hard to get through (no offense!). Am just not used to that accent. Yeh I covered Romain' s blog here especially the photos and descriptions of his trip over the Pianista and also the autopsy report he got hold of. Not much new in it, but still, it is good to have it in black and white. Yeh good points and I agree. I really submerged myself for some time in reading about getting lost in the wild, about dying out there, about survival. It is not hard to get lost. It;s just.... nothing of what was found really points towards an accident. Certainly not the state and location of the bones and the ball of skin. And indeed, on top of that the strange night photos, the abnormal behaviour, no messages, no notes, no nothing. Ah ok, good that you mention Aron Ralston, will look into his story although I remember it superficially. Well you will know by now all the discrepancies and brain-cracking contradictions in the official story about their disappearance.
DeleteAgreed, we will probably never find out what truly happened :(
Best wishes Scarlet
"So is this another clue that the girls did not in fact die behind the mountain, out in the wilderness there?"
ReplyDeleteI don't know as we can say for sure. But based on intuition and circumstantial evidence I myself do firmly believe that they likely did not pass away below a cable bridge. I went into this in your comments section, a great discussion with Mutinyonthekitkat, on one or two of the location videos you posted. I was speaking about the reality of how violent the stretch of rivers the bridges cross are when storms and heavy water saturation take place in the wet seasons, the geography of those rivers are mostly marked out by rubble and boulders being moved around by the storm-waters, a constant state of change making any natural geology there just about impossible to survive, the rubble and boulders shatter and sweep away just about everything on the riverbank and channel, just as the small stream of April 1st was gradually made to be so unrecognisable as to have you yourself devote serious time and energy to studying whether it WAS the same location several months later from the disappearance. And that is just a little stream!
When the night photos of April 8th were taken Panama had been in a drought for some significant time, and this I feel impacts on those photographs that night as we are likely looking at a dried out water feature that has become overgrown in the same way the main river seen in those March 30th(?) tourist photo's the two friends took had.
Several months after the April 8th Photographs I seriously question whether that nighttime location would be recognisable given the possible return to it being a water channel again. But more to the point that sort of water erosion and rockface is nothing you see on the Culeabra river below the rope bridges. None of the photo's on your blog of those bridges supports such a stable geological feature as that ledge the Photographer stood on that night. That ledge and its water erosion belongs somewhere else entirely. And I am suspecting strongly that it isn't to be found on the river section the remains were found on.
I talked about this on your You-Tube comments though and expand on my thinking there in a little more detail, I think when you assess the nature and severity of the drought at the time in Panama and how it had such a huge effect on river and stream water levels then night-time location of April 8th takes on a whole new dimension potentially... wherever those pictures were taken I feel strongly it isn't where the mythology that has set in on this disappearance of two young friends has been insisting they were. Below a cable bridge, and on the stretch of river.
https://janbirdingblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/panamas-vultures.html
Good point Dave. Indeed, with any wild rain season, things will look different afterwards. That leaf that was mistaken for Kris' body; it will be gone by now, for sure. The v-shaped tree branch probably as well. Even the pigmentation patterns on the flat rock of one of the night photos may look different by now, although I hope it does not. We may never be able to satisfactory identify that night photo location. Thanks for always sharing your interesting thoughts on here and in the youtube comments.
DeleteAs for the location near one of the cable bridges; Jeremy Kryt wrote that more than one local tour guide in Boquete identified the night photo location as being at the river crossing behind the Pianista. But not one photo has been published with the articles to prove this. Nothing to compare the two. Without visual comparison material, it is all null and void probably. On top of that, there are other reasons to be reluctant about that location, I feel. As we discussed before, those river passings are frequently used by other people and those trails behind the Pianista are also frequently used. Had they been stuck at one of the river crossings, then it is hard to believe that they met nobody and were 'desperately lost'. They would also have been right at the trail that would lead them to civilization, one way or another (to Boquete in the south or Alto Romero or Bocas in the north). It makes no sense. They could have taken a photo during the day also then from this river crossing, if they really were stuck there. But they never did.
Hi Scarlet,
ReplyDeleteYou have done an excellent research regarding this case. Hats off to you. I got to know about this case earlier this year, when I accidently came up with a brief video, which was done by a Youtuber in my country. I am very interested in mysterious cases and followed about the disappearance of Brian Shaffer, Barbara Bolick, Lars Mittank, Jennifer Kesse. The content of the brief video made me curious about this case, and I started to refer online sources, and luckily I found your blog and your earlier Youtube channel (Sad to here that it was removed by the Youtube. Now I have subscribed your new channel). I'm kind of slow reader and patiently followed your blog since then. I would like to share my opinions regarding Kris and Lisannes disappearance below.
1) Clues found from the diary entries
30th March- I believe here they were informed about the Pianista Trail either by person E or M at school or may be through internet/brochure. But they chose to hike local volcano and to view local coffee plantations on Saturday. According to Kris they were 100% sure about working at Aura. It means no negative feedbacks for their conversations with school.
31st March-Kris mentioned this day as a strange day. No wonder why. They had planned their work at Aura month ago. In my opinion they didn't understand what exactly going on, because the same person, who discussed about their work the previous day was telling a completely different story. I believe the other project that Kris mentioned is at "Casa Esperanza" according to Lisanne (Correct if I'm wrong). The girls were very enthusiastic about it after reading about it. They waited all day for hear it from school, and then they left with positive thoughts although they were not sure about it.
"we went to Sigrid for a full body massage" (Lis)
Most probably, this was the time I believe the Guide F showed up (Before meeting Sigrid), because the girls were so disappointed and a perfect opportunity for him. I might be wrong. Maybe they had a conversation with him regarding Pianista trail about the possibility of hiking without a guide. They also connected to school WiFi during this time according to phone data. I also think the guide gave his visiting card as well, which was found on a bed. (Could be placed there by him the other day as well). Did they officially mentioned about the planned tour with Guide F on 2nd April? Or was it a statement given by the guide?
The time they had spent with Sigrid was crucial, because she was a Dutch woman. No problems with communicating, so they may have been discussing their plans with her during the massage. Did the police interviewed her during the early stages of the investigation? Oh! You have made an update in part 2 regarding the massage session with Sigrid. There, she mentioned about changing plans. Interesting. Was it about the Saturday plans or another possible trail for example "Quezal trail"? I read somewhere in part 1 that person E on school mentioned about “Quezal trail". The person E had been there for few days, when Kris and Lisanne arrived at Boquete, and already made a strong connection with guide F. That's odd. Then, it was even more stranger, when she left Boquete within a week or less.
Thank you Tharindu. Also for sharing your thoughts here. Also for linking me to other missing persons cases I didn't know about yet.
Delete1. Yes very well possible. They spent quite a bit of time at that language school, according to their own diary entries, to tell about the disappointment at the children's school and to look for replacement work. Yeh they mentioned Casa Esperanza, but on the site at the time of this organization in Boquete, there were different school volunteer options mentioned, to draw foreign tourists in. Aura was mentioned, Casa Esperanza was mentioned and a couple more. But they could not get a confirmation that day for replacement work.
Perhaps they used the time also to look for day tours, their google history on one of the computers is said to have shown this as well. Yeh, it is very well possible that M or E told them about the pianista trail. Would be quite logical, since they knew the area better.
BUT, indeed, there is so much uncertainty about what they exactly booked for what day and with whom. Kris' father said in the media that he did not believe that they had an appointment on Wednesday with guide F. for a strawberry farm visit. We just don't know with certainty what exactly they wanted to do, as they haven't written it down in their diaries.. As for Sigrid, she had some info but nothing really important, seemingly. It was Ingrid Lommers herself, head of the language school, who according to Jeremy Kryt told the police that Kris and Lisanne had booked a trip to a “ranch in Alto Quiel” with this guide. And coworker Eileen told local investigator Lee Zeltzer that she believed they would visit the Quezal Trail on Tuesday.. (those are two different locations and directions).
2. Tuesday morning they were seen in Boquete in a local pharmacy and supermarket. They may have visited the language school as well that day, at the time staff (Eileen and Marjolein is suppose) told Lommers that the girls had been there and left around 13:00. But later that story was disputed because the girls were already on the Mirador by that time and Eileen said in private messages to two Canadians that she didn't remember them to have been there that day at all in fact, but instead the day prior (which is also when they last used the computer in the school, according to police). So they may not have visited the school at all that Tuesday. 5 hours up and down the Pianista, that is probably a stretch? They were up on that mountain within 2 hours and going down was a lot faster, the hiking conditions were also perfect.
Hi,
DeleteThanks for sharing your opinions here.
“It was Ingrid Lommers herself, head of the language school, who according to Jeremy Kryt told the police that Kris and Lisanne had booked a trip to a ranch in Alto Quiel”
I don’t understand, how the person IL was so sure about the planned trip to a ranch with that specific guide, even she was not in Boquete during the girl’s disappearance.
“Tuesday morning they were seen in Boquete in a local pharmacy and supermarket”.
Did the investigators examined the CCTV footages? I saw somewhere that those CCTV footages were deleted. I don’t understand this either. It was a key piece of information to clarify which was the correct timeline. Because, the timeline followed at the beginning of the investigation screwed the whole investigation. Did the investigators check CCTV footages at school?
“5 hours up and down the Pianista, that is probably a stretch?”
In this video https://youtu.be/EAqixLD90ao?list=PLDldKFcWBW3oKYfjz8zvNGa9U6ezj-rvk&t=149 it was mentioned 5 hours, but I also agree with you due to the perfect hiking conditions. (Maximum 4 hours). However, a 5 hour round trip is possible from their last known location at #508
“we don't even know if it is true and if Blue even was with them at all”.
Clearly, Blue was not with them that day. You have included photos of several hikers, who had accompanied Blue. There we see, most of the time Blue was staying close to them and leads the way. In my opinion, if Blue was really with the girls that day, we would see him in the photos that were taken at the open field (located at the beginning of the trail).
I have followed your opinions in the other three responses, and discussed them in the case analysis PDF, which I have emailed to you.
Regards,
Tharindu
2) Possible scenario before they started their hike on 1st of April
ReplyDelete1st April- I have a hunch that they went to school Tuesday morning because they were awaiting to hear about the news regarding the next project. I doubt that it was not worked out for them either or they were asked to return at evening. This could be possible. Let's forget about the timeline and think about eyewitness. Earlier, the head person IL stated in her Facebook post that few people saw them at school on 1st of April and later saying it was in fact 31st of March. Maybe that was why they suddenly decided to hike Pianista trail after having a brunch. That could explain why they had started their hike around 11 am that morning instead of earlier in the morning. The taxi driver was probably arranged by a person at school (probably the woman E). Since the up and down time for Pianista is about 5 hours, the girls might have planned to return at school around 4-4.30 PM in the evening.
3) Regarding their hike and photos taken on 1st of April.
**The trail is easy to follow according to most of the hikers, but in one video I saw that the trail is divided into two paths. So given the fact that, they had reached the summit within 2 hours, I believe they were instructed to make correct turns by a person they encountered during their ascent or at the beginning of the trail. Back in 2014, I think Pianista trail was less famous than it is now, so maybe very little information found online.
**The story of dog "Blue" is doubtful. We cannot see the dog in a single photo out of the available 17 photos. However, it may be present in a remaining photo, since the remaining 13 photos are not available for us.
**The photo 491- In my opinion it was taken before the summit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARU0swxS8AE&feature=emb_title In this video (in part 2), if we carefully watch between 1.57-2.00, and compare it with photo 491, you would see the similarities. The video was published in 2016 June, which is nearly 2 years after photo 491 was taken. Although, there are slight differences, I think this is the same spot. That could be possible because in many photos and videos, I saw how the surrounding environment along this trail changes from dry period to rainy season. According to the photo timings in part 3, there is a high probability that photos 490, 491 and 492 were taken at this spot. Photo 493 is also most probably before the summit. I might be wrong. What do you think? These type of crevice passages can be seen before and after the summit. Because of the timeline problems and the extensive research (in part 3) regarding the 3rd party manipulation of photo metadata, the order of the photos are doubtful.
3. The Pianista trail has a couple of forks at the start, but not when you go further up and not after the summit, apparently. But yeh, the fact they got up on the summit so quickly *may* indicate that someone told them where to go. Guide P. has said he thought he passed them on the trail that day, with him going down and them going up. Perhaps he instructed them how to get up fastest? As for Blue, no photos of him, not even a tail is visible in any of the photos we know of. That story may have been falsely shared by its owners. True, there are some photos left we don;'t know of yet, although quite a few have by now been leaked or published. The majority.
DeleteYes that part of the trail where you have to pass a tree trunk over a stream, that part seems to match with photo 491. Correct. I agree, that seems to be the same spot, you also see that spot here, around minute 01:50. https://youtu.be/TBDm4IY9nio?t=110
It is before the summit yes. Which the chronology of the photo numbers also indicates. Same for 493 yes, also before the summit. Among the few daytime photos we have not seen yet may be one of the wall of moss that comes after the summit. We do not know if Kris and Lisanne took pictures of that very photogenic part of the trail (so past the Mirador that is).
Fortunately, now we have the details of all 33 photos, courtesy to the dedicated work that was done by Matt and Romain. Based on the new findings and after watching the videos in You Tube, possible locations of the photos 489, 493 and 506 can be identified, if you carefully observe.
Delete#493 (before summit)- In this video, (https://youtu.be/s-kZtS5Jq7U?t=71) around minute 01:11, the girl was most likely hiking at the exact spot in 493. I found it in this blog (https://camilleg.fr/le-projet-el-pianista-la-chronologie-des-photos-du-1er-avril-2014/) and it is located before the summit. I saw there was a confusion regarding 493, whether it shows before or after the summit.
#506 (after summit)-In this video, (https://youtu.be/7pl6Q5Ogo5s?list=PLDldKFcWBW3p8gDwdS-4FGhOZUvkO9_Qc&t=765) if you carefully observe around minute 12.45, the exact location of 506 can be identified. There is a key marker (small hollow area in the right wall, which can be easily identified) to compare it with #506. This was taken 6 seconds after #505 and the camera was pointed to the opposite direction with respect to their moving direction.
#489- I couldn't identify the exact location, but I believe it had been taken very close to the base of the jungle trail. I saw that, you have mentioned #489 would better fit to the group of photos at the open field. But the issue is, if you closely follow the timeline (latest one), the time difference between 489 and 490 is almost 20 minutes. So, if Kris was really at the open field in 489 (around 11.25 AM), they would have to cover large distance within 20 minutes to reach the stream at #491. According to this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzAOL7uTzQ8&list=PLDldKFcWBW3p8gDwdS-4FGhOZUvkO9_Qc&index=20), there is a significant distance from the open field to the base of the jungle trail. #487 and #488 show small creek according to Matt. During the last 30 seconds of the video, you will see a small creek to the right side of the trail. In that blog, Romain has included a photo correspond to the small creek described in #487 and #488. One other thing I notice was the backpack. It was with Lisanne at the open field, but in #489 Kris was carrying the backpack.
Based on the latest timeline of photos, we have almost identified the exact locations of each photo except the location of #494, which is still pending. Romain stated that, he would try his best to map that exact location during his next hike.
With the availability of the latest timeline, Pianista summit photos were not the only one, which they were rushing to take within mere seconds. If you carefully observe the timestamps of the photos in a particular group (Out of 8 groups), you will see the rush. Despite perfect hiking conditons (+ athletic girls), I have doubts of their rate of ascent. (I had that doubt in the previous photo timeline as well, and commented under the Travel channel episode part). If we keep timestamps aside, I don't see a hurry in their captured moments. They were observing the surrounding environment and taking photographs (specially before the jungle trail) which most hikers would do. The other thing is at such a pace of hiking, they had reached the summit without even breaking a sweat in a hot and humid weather conditions. What do you think about these observations?
Hi Tharindu, yes I wrote a bigger update about matt's findings two days ago, you can find it at the top of blog part 4: https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-disappearance-of-kris-kremers-and.html
Delete('Matt from ImperfectPlan published a new article
February 25th, 2021 [etc]' )
Photo 489 initially looked like a problem in my eyes, as there would have to be around twenty minutes worth of open fields with wooden fences between that photo and the previous four, taken at 11:25 AM. And in photo 483, Lisanne already seems to be near a hill with forest. But perhaps the road sweeps past it and continues to show these same wooded fences and meadow for another 20 minutes, that is the most likely explanation. But the video you linked to indeed shows that sort of terrain going on for at least 2,5 minutes of motorcycle riding time. I couldn't make out if they are driving on the Pianista trail or another trail at Boquete that looks very similar, but it may well be the first stretch of the Pianista trail in fact, it looks similar. But like you said, there will be similar clearings probably from whatever point near Boquete you drive or walk up north towards the Continental Divide.
Yeh it is good to have all the photo times and numbers now. I was most pleased with having a starting point now (first photo of the trailhead at 11:08) and a last taken photo (4:10 at April 8th). They also took photos in clusters yes, it does seem like they took out their camera now and then for a couple of photos, taken seconds apart, and then put it away again to continue their hike with their hands free. Nevertheless, the 6 and 8 seconds between photos on different sides of the Mirador, to me, is still a bit extreme. As they spent at least 6 minutes on the summit, going by this new finetuned info. Well one could argue that in photos 496 and 497, Lisanne does show some sweat in the form of a shiny forehead. But their clothes seem sweat stain free and they are not overtly exhausted or shiny looking no. Despite a significant hike in the warm sunshine. But 2 hours seems no big deal for the ascent. Guide P. does it in 1 hour, another blogger in 1,5 hours and they were both in good shape, it should not be a problem at all in 2 hours, unless you take a wrong turn or are faced with muddy slushy terrain, which they didn't.
Thanks for sharing your ideas and clarifying me about the possibility of their rate of ascent.
Delete"Nevertheless, the 6 and 8 seconds between photos on different sides of the Mirador, to me, is still a bit extreme."
Yes, indeed the short time intervals between summit photos look odd to me as well. In some photos, they were not only changing locations, but also their backpack and hair as well. Specially the time interval between #501 and #502 is 4 seconds (Kris was in different sides of the Mirador). I believe these photographs were taken some time apart, except for the multiple photos that have been taken at a particular position (#495-#498)
As I mentioned in the below comment, a key observation for me was the content of image #504 (previously #498). In my opinion, they were trying to capture Boquete side or perhaps the Pacific Ocean. Indeed, we see the Boquete town in #504. From the recent findings, we now know that #503 also shows the same scenery. So, it further confirms that the girls were aware about the descent along the same trail to get back to Boquete.(Good fact to disprove loop idea)
"I couldn't make out if they are driving on the Pianista trail or another trail at Boquete that looks very similar"
I believe the biker was travelling in the open trail of the Pianista. I have compared this video (https://youtu.be/EAqixLD90ao?list=PLDldKFcWBW3oKYfjz8zvNGa9U6ezj-rvk&t=219) at minute 3.39 with the biker video (https://youtu.be/JzAOL7uTzQ8?list=PLDldKFcWBW3p8gDwdS-4FGhOZUvkO9_Qc&t=379) at minute 6.19. Both videos show the same spot, which is located after the open field (11.25 AM in K&L timeline).
**Possible explanation for the Kris's discolored shoe**
I don’t know whether this is useful, but this video (https://youtu.be/9o1NQg-RtXE) shows
“What Happens If You Spill Sulfuric Acid on Your Shoes?” See how the color of that shoe
changes from brown to light purple. This might explain the condition of their bones and Kris’s discolored shoe. Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) is actually a strong acid and highly corrosive.
There are other strong acids and weak acids like concentrated Hydchloric acid (HCl) and
Phosphoric acid (H3PO4). I hope that this video will be useful for the discussion part regarding the use of corrosive materials to dissolve bodies.
**Summit photos- I didn't see anyone commenting about photo 498 (possibly #498 in part 3). Since the metadata is not available, I'm not 100% sure, but it looks like a zoomed photo to me. The girls didn't use zoom option for the rest of the available photos. I took a moment and thought 'why did they took this zoomed picture?’ In my opinion, they were trying to capture Boquete town or perhaps the Pacific Ocean. If that is true, I believe they were aware about the descent along the same trail to get back to Boquete. Why did they continue the trail beyond the summit? Some theories (Lost + Accident) argued that they didn't know to turnaround at the summit. Instead, they continued along the trail thinking it was a loop back to Boquete. Which is highly unlikely!
ReplyDeleteLet’s assume the photos numbered from 495-504 were taken at Pianista summit and metadata were manipulated by a 3rd party (as mentioned in part 3). When examining the timing of photos, 495-502 were taken in a rush (8 photos in 2 minutes). But there is a 4 minute delay between 502 and 503. Was it because they were interrupted by another person in between? You have mentioned about the strange thumbs up sign, which they were never posed in their entire tour. Maybe the Pianista summit photos were never Photoshopped, but out of order. If that was the case, I believe 503 and 504 were the thumbs up photos of Kriss and Lisanne. I might be wrong. What do you think?
**Photos after summit- Photo 505 is a weird picture to me. I think photo 506 is related to the same spot because of the 3 seconds delay between 505 and 506. When I saw that photo for the first time, I thought it was taken by Lisanne's Samsung phone, because we don't have the original photo with optimal resolutions. The poor focus of the photo and slightly overexposed sunlight suggests, 505 was taken very quickly. It could be, because 3 seconds later 506 was captured. Many people have a doubt regarding the actual location of this photo because it looks like a dead end or a cave in front of Kris. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnfol1KfUPc In this video, the person was most likely walking at the exact spot (a photo is attached in part 2) in photo 505 in between the time 3.06 - 3.14. Although, there are slight differences due to rainy season, I believe this was the exact spot. I tried playing the video in slow motion and compared the special markers with 505. Also at 2.14 time mark of the video, we can see the opposite side of photo 491. This video was published in January 2015, which was not a long time after their disappearance.
The posture of Kris looks very odd in 505. Many people mentioned that her hands were handcuffed or tied. I tried to enhance it using Photoshop. Looks like she was saying something. Probably her hand was positioned at temple area of her face. Similar to answering a call. When I reduce the exposure, I didn't understand the position of her elbow, and a strap like object is visible to the side of her waist. In addition, I see some kind of white object/paper near her front jeans pocket. Apart from that, I see few strange things in the background as well. I wonder how 506 will look like.
Between 505 and 507, Kris had slipped somewhere along the trail. The mud patches on her legs and her jeans indicates that. In the last day time photo (508), a white object/paper can be seen above the front jeans pocket and the mud patches can be seen on her left leg. There are two versions of 508. I checked in 508, whether there were any footprints of Kris on the rock surface she stands on 507. Luckily, I see a faint mark on the rock surface from her right shoe. I tried to enhance it using Photoshop and it looks similar to a shoe print of her. Since Kris had mud patches in her legs, we can assume that her shoes were not completely dry. Therefore, I believe 508 was taken 9 seconds after 507 at 13:54:59 PM. This may sounds crazy, but in a case like this, evaluating such a small thing makes a huge difference.
Shit, my entire comment has disappeared. Ok, attempt no. 2 Regarding the summit photos I think you are right. I think it is Boquete pictured indeed in photo 498. I am not convinced they zoomed in for this photo, they simply may have stepped further towards the cliff, according the the photo metadata they didn't use the zoom option... Regarding the loop idea... to be honest, I feel that this suggestion has been made later on by people who believe the girls got lost. And that it is a pretty far-fetched suggestion, because all common logic points away from it (indeed, they saw Boquete lie behind them on their ascend; they kept walking straight away from Boquete as they continued and who ever suspects a loop when the trail goes straight on? I am a hiker and I never do). But OK, people have different ideas of what is and isn't logical. But now the strange situation has been reached where people who do NOT believe in a loop scenario, have to defend their stance. Whereas I'd say that the whole notion of a loop should be proven first and foremost, not the other way around. There was no official information about it being a loop. There was a Lonely Planet guide at the language school and it said you needed to return back on the same road (so; again, no loop info). There were no signs suggesting anything, neither a loop. And you yourself discovered so sharply that Kris and Lisanne even pictured Boquete behind them, while they went up the mountain.
DeleteI find it a lot more likely that they kept walking because it was a nice day. Because they wanted to see some more. Perhaps because they met someone else by then. Guide P. has declared in the media that he thought he passed Kris and Lisanne on the Pianista trail that day, while he went down and they went up. Perhaps he told them where to go. Perhaps he met them on the summit - that 4 minute photo taking pause is well spotted by you. First rushing around on that summit to take all those photos within mere seconds sometimes, then 4 minutes of nothing? Indeed, perhaps they chatted to someone who had come up as well by then. Maybe that is why there were suddenly thumbs up photos afterwards. Or perhaps the photos were taken at different moments in time. I do believe that after walking on and picturing the stream of photos 507 and 508, they returned. And they may have taken some more shots on the summit, this time with a more cloudy background and with the girls wearing their hair differently than before. Perhaps they met someone behind the summit who asked them to come for a swim later on. Perhaps they were not alone when they returned and the red truck that was witnessed by some people coming down the trail was in fact carrying them, to go swimming. It is all speculation of course. But I do not find the photo mixing theory that odd. It makes sense, considering how hard the narrative was pushed afterwards that these girls just got lost in the 'wild and dangerous jungle', never returned. Hence why we do not see Blue the dog in any of their photos (we know the majority of those daytime photos and Blue is not pictured on any of them...). Another story to tell us: see? Those ill-prepared women went up, but they never made it back down. The owners of the dog are saying so! The dog cam e back alone! - But we don't even know if it is true and if Blue even was with them at all.
"I find it a lot more likely that they kept walking because it was a nice day."
Delete"I feel that this suggestion has been made later on by people who believe the girls got lost."
In several discussions, I saw the people, who believed in lost theory suggested that the girls hadn't identified the Pianista summit correctly. So, they kept walking deep into the jungle. Highly unlikely! Since we have the details of all 33 photos now, it is obvious to me that the girls had identified the Pianista summit. If we go through the photos group wise, the largest group (including 10 photos) belongs to Pianista summit. Their happy selfies and photo poses clearly portray that their target was achieved. The purpose of #503 and $504 (scenery in Boquete side) might be to highlight the terrain, which they had covered during their hike (I usually do this in a hike, whenever I have a clear view).
"Hence why we do not see Blue the dog in any of their photos"
Simple answer to this is, Blue was not with them that day. Matt confirmed that He didn't see Blue in the remaining 10 photos. You have included photos of several hikers, who had accompanied Blue. There we see, most of the time Blue was staying close to them.
**A clue from the Travel channel episode by JJ and Kinga**
At the base of the trailhead, we see that specific guide hikes with a couple. I saw in the
comment section that Kinga and JJ were never saw him after that. Are there any other possible
exit trails? If so, there is a possibility that the girls were kidnapped behind the Pianista trail
and taken them to a secondary location via different path. Maybe that’s why the phones had
no reception after 1.39 PM.
**Clues from the earliest interview with Kremers family**
I think the last contact time between Kris and her boyfriend is crucial here (Around 2 PM according to Roelie). Kris’s Iphone had lost reception around 1.39 PM, (Answer for Kris video) which is 15 minutes before the last photo. Let’s assume that they had turned back to Boquete around 2.pm at the first stream. Then, they would have signal reception around 2.15pm and her boyfriend might be telling the truth (Why didn't they investigate about this?). In the interview, Kris’s father even described her responses: “They were very cheerful and enthusiastic about everything they were experiencing and seeing there”. Did Kris was mentioning about the experience of Pianista hike and scenery here? Because, according to their diary entries they were not cheerful and enthusiastic in the previous day, and suddenly they were having a good time and excitement.
"I do believe that after walking on and picturing the stream of photos 507 and 508, they returned"
DeleteI also think they might have started to return back to Boquete at this moment. I know that it contradicts with the data provided by the mobile phones regarding signal reception, but the 2.5 hour time gap is more
than enough time for them to reach the starting point of the trail. The clue from first 911/112 calls is that, they were not desperate attempts. (Only 2 attempts and switching off the phone).Let’s assume that they continued to walk on the trail deep into the jungle until first 911/112 attempts. It is important to think how our mind works in these kind of situations. Actually you don’t call for help immediately at the first place, unless you realize that you have been moving in the wrong side for a quite a while or you encounter a fatal accident. In such a scenario, you don’t give up in just 2 attempts to save battery power. You would act desperately, because you would not expect to spend a single night inside the jungle and you won’t even think about your death inside jungle until the last moment. To me, the phone activities and power savings were really odd, because it’s like, they already knew that they had to spend several days inside the jungle at the first place. We know that one 911 call was connected for 1-2 seconds in the morning/afternoon of 2nd April. After less than a minute, the phone had been switched off. Imagine what you would do in a similar situation. If you are desperate to contact emergency services, you would make further attempts. Let’s keep 911 attempts aside, obviously you would check for a signal for at least 5 minutes. If I was the person, I simply forget the battery level and check for a signal. That’s the way how our mind works. Therefore, switching off the phone less than a minute after you made a connection is unusual. Did the investigators monitor their phone activities during the early investigation using the IMEI numbers? I will try to compare their phone activities with the different theories under the below comment. The comments might be lengthy, but I think it is worth sharing here.
4) What happened to the girls - Looks like a pre-planned murder.
ReplyDeleteI believe they were interrupted by a 3rd party (known person to them) at the Pianista summit while, they were taking their happy selfies. Since they had more time, they agreed to descent along trail on the other side of the summit, until they reach the stream at 508. Maybe the 3rd party insisted them to see the 2nd stream as well. In 508, the moving direction and facial expressions of Kris suggests me that she was stopped by Lisanne. Looks like she didn't want to pose for a photo. That's why she looked like worried. If she really wanted to pose for a photo, she would have turnaround like in 491. At the location of 508, they were nearly 2.5 hours away from making their first 911/112 calls. Since there were no photos except for the deleted photo 509, I have a hunch that they might have started to return towards Boquete. Meanwhile, they might have switched off the phones or set them to air plane mode.
Actually they were seen at the start of the Pianista trail around 4 PM and in fact, many witnesses claim that they were waiting for taxi/bus. As I mentioned earlier, they were expected to be at school around 4.30 PM. In my opinion, it is true that they took a lift from a person related to that 3rd party. Probably they never went back to Boquete through the same route they arrived at Pianista in the late morning. They might initially thought or informed that they were on a loop road to Boquete. As the journey takes more time than they expected and remote environment along the road made them suspicious about the lift. Maybe the vehicle was stopped in the middle of nowhere, (known location for the driver) and the girls were scared, because they were approached by nasty people. So they immediately called 112 at 4.39 PM and 4.51 PM. Calls never connected due to poor reception. Finally they were kidnapped, raped and used for organ trafficking. I'm not saying that this was the exact thing, which happened to them, but something like that. This is a very simple task for an organized crime leader.
A scenario like this is logical to assume since, it answers lot of unanswered questions which you have highlighted in relation to different theories. In fact eyewitnesses claim that they were given a lift by a pickup truck owned by a local man. It makes obvious why the police and the investigators had not found any trace of them in the jungle. Simply they were not there. When talking about eyewitnesses, some of them were given tips genuinely and others were purposefully given false tips, which mislead the investigation. Therefore, it was very difficult for the investigators to believe, which tips are accurate and which are false, since the mobile phone data and camera data were not available during the early investigation.
**Night time photos- Probably captured by a 3rd party. When was the investigators decided to use tracker dogs? I have a feeling that tracker dog’s news made the perpetrators to develop the lost/accident theory. This is actually because, the girls might have returned towards Boquete soon after 508. So they planted evidences deep in the jungle. The reason why they decided to put the evidences along the river because the dogs loss their track along a river. The dogs could track them near to the river, and looks like they had fallen from the monkey bridge by proving the accident theory.
I don't want to mention about the involved people here since it is obvious after reading your blog. I hope justice will be served for those innocent girls one day. Once again I would like to appreciate your excellent research and work Scarlet. I would like your feedback regarding my opinions. There may be grammar mistakes and repeated information. Apologies to that.
Best Regards
T.
So then rearranging the photo order is not that difficult either. Just make it look like they went up but never came back. Make the two summit photo sessions appear to be one. Renumber some photos. Maybe use photoshop to push some people out of the borders of the photograph (I do it sometimes in photoshop, it is easy and nobody can notice it if you do it well).
DeleteYes correct, indeed the locations of photo 505 is also as you say. I had identified that location before in the same video, yes that is the place. It is right behind the summit, in that stretch with the 'walls of moss', which are so very photogenic but of which we have no clear photos. They must be among those few daytime photos that have not been made public yet. In it, Kris seems to have one hand above her eyes and the other... just goofing about?
You have a good eye for details, well spotted that footmark and indeed it is important. It is good that you identified the faint mark on the rock surface to be from Kris' foot. Imagine if it was the size of a large man's shoe...
The problem with a return to Boquete - which I agree on as you know - is that it is a difficult thing to explain that their phones made no more cell tower connection. Although I have been told by some people that this information may have been fake, made up or falsified. But that possibility aside, what other logic reason could there have been for them both powering off their phone on the way back? Their phones both had less than 50% battery at 11:00, at the start of their hike. Maybe they wanted to safe battery. Or maybe they wanted to avoid extra roaming costs from the wifi of the houses lying on the trail. They had their Dutch phones with them and were careful with their money.
The data do not suggest the phones were set to flight mode. But then again, the data also give no ping location for the 1-2 second connection made with 112 on day 2. Yes there are multiple witnesses who have stated to have seen them at the start of the trail again between roughly 15:00 and 16:00. They are all discarded by the accident believers, without further thought. I do not agree with that either, it seems just too easy. One witness statement can always be off but multiple? Then you enter conspiracy theory territory and that is exactly the direction Lost believers say they never want to go in. I think they went for a swim with the local youth, the swimming photo, and after that they were never returned to their host family. Maybe false expectations were created, perhaps they just did not want to do something that was desired of them. Or perhaps they met someone else entirely on the mountain? And truly were kidnapped there already.
Yes those two emergency calls already before 17:00 are also hard to 'fit in', to call it opportunistically. Like you say, perhaps they felt uncomfortable halfways and tried to secretly call emergency services, in a place with no reception.
A scenario along those lines and there are many variations possible, may sound hysterically far-fetched for folks in the United States or Europe for instance, but we have to also look at the local situation in Boquete and Panama and there were dozens of missing people, women, girls at the time. There is a known problem with crime and murder. There is no denying there is a drug trade industry. Poverty and corruption also. People need to not close their eyes for such realities. Indeed, they were not in that jungle. Even Sinaprocs director said it flat out on camera; they are not here! I need to keep my patience sometimes when I hear another fairy tale story about how they were led by Blue the dog and then lost Blue and then sat on a rock next to the river for 11 days and waved at helicopters in the night, even though there were no helicopters flying at night, absolutely not a shred of evidence for this, nada zilch, and if they did it would have been all over the local news because they would have wanted to show the Dutch how hard they were helping to find these girls, even risking the lives of their pilots. Which was not the case, way too dangerous to fly a helicopter over mountainous jungle terrain in the dark of night. They were not in that jungle above Boquete and that is why nobody found anything. Until suddenly Betzaida Pitti was put on the case, back then officially called a 'homicide/kidnapping' and she quickly had the backpack found ('it wasn't there the day before', the finders stated) and the bones, even a tiny ball of skin was found in the jungle, really incredible. She made it an accident case and that is the end of it.. (and I agree fullheartedly that the night photos were staged)
DeleteThanks for your comments,
best wishes
As I mentioned earlier, those emergency calls were not desperate attempts, and I personally don’t think they were trying to save battery power either. Then you start to wonder why there were only 112/911 calls? (No SMS or calls to other contacts) Seems like they were run out of options at the first place. This happens mainly due to 2 reasons.
Delete**If SIM card is not inserted or removed, you already know that you can’t call or SMS your contacts. This
may cause your phone to only allow operations in 'Emergency Mode Only'.
**If your phone is at dead zone, where no reception at all.
Mainly, GSM network operates in 4 steps.
Step 1: Connects to the network of your SIM card. If not step 2.
Step 2: Connects to the roaming network. If not step 3.
Step 3: Connects to another network, which has the best signal strength. (“Emergency Mode”) If not step4.
Step 4: “No Service”- place where there is no reception. (Dead zone)
If we compare this with the girl’s timeline, Kris’s Iphone had lost reception around 1.39 PM (let’s assume the same for Lisanne’s Samsung). According to the official statements, the phones were never had cell reception on 1st of April. It means they were never turned back to Boquete, instead continued deep into the jungle until the first 112 calls. The point is, when the mobile phone does not have signal reception from any networks, it displays “No Service” around the signal reception bars. Therefore, first 112 call from Kris (4.39 PM) would go straight into the voicemail message or out of network range message. Same thing happens with the attempt from Lisanne’s Samsung. Considering their last known location (#508), there are 4 possible reasons for the first 911/112 attempts. I will list them from bad to worse.
**The girls continued to walk along the wrong side off the trail until 4.39 PM. They realized their mistake, and it was almost impossible to reach Boquete before sunset.
**Girls went off the trail, and by the time of their first emergency calls, they were completely lost.
**Completely lost and encountered a fatal accident.(Immobilized)
**They were attacked and kidnapped by a third party.
If we consider the first 2 reasons, it is true that the girls were panicked at that moment, but I don’t understand why they were switched off their mobile phones so quickly (within 12 minutes). It does not add up with their situation, and the purpose of their 112 attempts was to get help, because they were not intended to spend a single night inside a dense jungle. End of the second failed 112 attempt, they might knew (clearly indicates in both phones) that they had no reception. The interesting point is that the girls (the girls point of view) never knew precisely at what point, they had entered to a complete dead zone (1.39 PM precisely) or they were even in a dead zone covering a large area. Still daylight was available at that time, and they could have at least checked for a signal until 6 PM, by moving backward along the trail towards the summit or to a higher ground. In such a situation, you would except signal reception at any moment, because you don’t know about the boundary of the dead zone (coverage area), and you would do this at least for an hour until you give up. Based on that, it is ridiculous to think that they had turned off their phones after 12 minutes (Only 2 attempts) to save battery power at the first place. If you think intuitively, there are better ways to simultaneously check signal reception and power saving, rather than turning off the mobile phones at the same time.
If the girls were completely lost, and encountered a fatal accident (immobilized them), then they would have acted desperately as I mentioned earlier. However, we don’t see desperate actions in first 112 attempts. Let’s keep that aside, and assume they really turned off their phones in order to save power, since they had immobilized. Then the question is, why would they turned off their phones immediately after a brief connection for 1-2 seconds in the second day. Would anyone do that? In addition, their pattern of 911 attempts doesn’t correlate with such a scenario (fatal accident) because we see huge time intervals between some attempts.
DeleteIf the girls were attacked by a third party and kidnapped, then more likely, those phone activities (probably after 1st of April) had been staged by them or someone else later. Then someone might ask the question, how they correctly entered pin codes in the first 5 days? There are ways to get that (The world is cruel than we think). The perpetrators could extract basic information about the victims, because we know that a passport/insurance was in the backpack. Since, there had been number of missing cases around that area, I believe an organized crime gang/ serial killers/ drug dealers was at Boquete, which operates in a systematic manner (above the law). Probably they might have links with the local people at Boquete as well. Other question is, why they didn’t destroy the evidences (backpack and belongings) at the first place? Those gangs or drug dealers have a chain of operation, which runs from powerful players to low level players. These girls were actually not local people, and we know that this case had a worldwide attention at the time. So, if the powerful players feel like they are vulnerable, they usually cover their traces by eliminating the low level players (two boys in that swimming photo is dead). Actually, the phone reception data is the only one that contradicts with the idea of girls returning to Boquete soon after #508. Personally, I don’t trust those emergency calls, as explained earlier, it doesn’t make any sense most of the time. Since, there were too many loose ends in the investigation process, we can’t be 100% certain about the phone reception data and maybe the eyewitnesses were telling the truth after all. In fact we know that Kris’s boyfriend had contacted her around 2 PM (Panamanian time) according to Roelie. With the availability of that swimming photo, I believe they were kidnapped soon after that or behind the Pianista trail soon after #508. Looks like, most of the emergency calls and night time photos were staged later on to narrate the lost theory. That’s why we have lots of controversies in each theory and unable to explain what was really happened to them (present of extra information).
Given the fact that one of their 112 calls had made a brief connection of 1-2 seconds means, step 3 had satisfied. Connection establishment is done via pilot signals (exchange channel information for power controlling) and after that user will be able to initiate calling. It means, the phone had signal reception for at least 5-10 seconds. So it is possible that they were not in a complete dead zone like in a jungle, instead a location with signal reception available, but it was blocked by external factors. Faraday cage (Blocks electromagnetic waves) is a good example. Inside an elevator and a box wrapped with aluminum foil are good examples for Faraday cages. Underground tunnels and caves are also good examples for places with poor signal reception.
**Comparison of lost theory with the timeline and pattern of phone activities.**
DeleteI kind of feel like they were trapped in a place (labyrinth). Because, if you put power saving and emergency calls together, it looks like they were waiting for help in the same location until 9.33 AM on 3rd April. Then, we don’t see call attempts, instead check for a signal reception. Most likely at that point, they were on the move, because checking signal reception for many days at the same location does not add up. However, the timeline and the pattern of signal check is odd. It’s like they were moving with reference to a base point (the location of 112/911 attempts) in each day, while checking for signal reception (checking the signal reception on different routes in a labyrinth). No activities at night (before April 8) means that, they were trapped in a place, where sunlight was available. Then, something had happened after 6th of April as the batteries of the phones started to give up. The problem is with lost theory is that, there are lot of unanswered questions, if you restrict to it. One thing I noticed was their rate of descent (until #508) on the other side can be correlated with the average time taken by other hikers to reach location at #508 from the summit). So, it is logical to assume that they were hours behind that first Monkey Bridge, as predicted by experienced hikers. We know that extensive search operations were carried out on the trail after the summit, but not a single trace of them were found. Furthermore, there are lot of unanswered questions like:
*Condition of the backpack (unknown fingerprints in belongings) and human remains.
*The distant from their last known location to the human remains.
*Missing a crucial photo like #509.
*Inexplicable night time photos after 7 days from disappearance.
*The timing and pattern of emergency calls.
*Entering the wrong pin numbers to Kris’s Iphone.
*Investigators didn’t find any trace of them, even with the help of dogs.
*Evidences of metadata manipulation in photographs.
*Suspicious swimming photo with present of two girls almost like Kris and Lisanne.
*The deaths of the taxi driver and the young guys in a swimming photo.
*Multiple eyewitnesses including the (probably fictional) story of dog ‘Blue’.
*Two timelines regarding the disappearance based on eyewitness and camera/phone details
*Some other hikers gone missing around that area.
*Hard to get lost, when you have a clear single path.
*The trail behind the Pianista summit is known for drug trafficking.
*Conclusions made by the specialists and the anonymous forensic pathologist in Lost in the Wild episode.
*Sudden change in their volunteer work plan, which was planned a month ago
To sum up, if we put all the above facts together (courtesy to your blog and You Tube channel), the most probable cause of their disappearance is FOUL PLAY. Sorry for the lengthy comments.
Regards,
Tharindu.
Excellent Work. I have been following this case for a couple years now...and from all the ones I have research. this is probably the only one that makes me cry every time. I just find it terrible being a empath...to put myself in the girl's position..whatever that was it was horrible.
ReplyDeleteThank you Rodrigo for your comment. Yeh... it has a strange pull this case.. I think it has for a lot of people. Just so many details are known and those night photos also draw you into the nightmare.. Yes I can imagine.. being an empath you must be able to imagine very vividly what may have happened to Kris and Lisanne. And not one scenario is good, in that respect :(
DeleteAn interesting story I came by by chance concerns the failed Hike of Kristen Jost and Hope Ryan. Here is a tale with striking parallels to what is suspected to have happened to Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers on April 1st 2014, both are of the same age as the other, but in Jost & Ryan's case a happier ending as both decided to sit down on reaching a specific location and wait...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeBiC8fRUyg
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/pair-of-hikers-found-after-going-missing-in-the-enchantments-over-the-weekend/
Their story has so many parallels to Kris and Lisanne's, and It does make you think.
Thanks for linking to that story Dave. I often read up on lost hikers and it seems to happen quite often that hikers fall, get lost or simply disappear without a trace (Missing 411). The details of the circumstances are often a little bit different but yes, there is also often some overlap. The Kris and Lisanne disappearance is probably so widely covered and has such a pull for many people, because we have all these extra confusing bits and pieces of info. The night photos, the daytime photos, the phone logs, the handful of bones, the suddenly appearing backpack. A Panamanian prosecution team who shift as easily from homicide/kidnapping to an accident investigation as I change gears in my car.
DeleteThese two young women had about the same age and they stayed put, that seems to be the preferred thing to do once you notice you got lost in the wild and when backtracking does not help you.. These two also brought extra warm clothing and seemed well prepared? And they told people where they went, also important.
Regarding the photos that look like duplicates but have different lighting-having worked in a camera shop for many years, I'm very familiar with canon cameras which I believe this is. There is a mode where the camera will take 2 photos upon 1 click of the shutter-with 2 different flash settings. The women may have been trying to photograph something but unable to figure out the best setting, or it was simply on the wrong mode
ReplyDeleteThank you for this information. That is very valuable info to know of. Indeed, sometimes two subsequent photos look so much alike, but only the slightly changing or shifted light orbs (or water drops) in the sky give away that it is a different photo. What you wrote could be a very good explanation for this, thank you for sharing that here.
DeleteBest wishes Scarlet
I don't think anyone can explain exactly what happened, but the most probable explanation is lost/accident. I have seen and read nothing that makes me believe a crime has been committed. Yes there are some puzzling questions that remain unanswered, but that in itself does not confirm criminal activity. A truly sad event.
ReplyDeleteLOL nice try, Marja!
DeleteHi anonymous. The most probably explanation in your subjective and coloured opinion is.. etc etc. Some people think differently about this, like there will always be people who think different about anything and everything.. This case has so many strange details that do not seem logical within either a lost/accident scenario or a foul play scenario. There is no clear evidence for an accident either, not even the forensic evidence proves this.
DeleteAnd even if Betzaida Pitti produces a super detailed scenario script of what happened with the inevitable end conclusion that they just got lost, even then there will remain people who do not believe it. Who think that data have been manipulated, that she lies about certain things or keeps other info out of her story. I think this case has been covered so widely now and people have been digging into things for so long, that the only closure could come if a hypothetical killer stepped forward and confessed to the whole sordid affair, details and all. Nothing else will give closure. Although... even then some people will not believe it and think he has been blackmailed into falsely stepping up.
It is probably best for everyone that we all accept that this case is super confusing, detailed, a mess of too many conflicting details and that there are forces from all sides trying to manipulate the narrative by demonizing some sources and pimping others, according to who and what suits their own suspicions.
Hi Scarlet, I posted the above lost/accident comment. I confirm I am not Marja and, apart from a brief email exchange with her regarding a book, I don't know her. I agree with you when you say there are many strange details that do not seem logical and there is no clear evidence for an accident. However in the absence of clear evidence which provides conclusive proof, one way or another, it is not unreasonable to consider the most likely explation. Hikers are far more likely to get lost, suffer from exposure to the elements, suffer hunger and dehydration, and have accidents or become ill than encounter foul play. There are facts in this event which suggest lost/accident as a plausible explanation but little which points to foul play. I think it's reasonable to conclude that, in the balance of probabilities, lost/acident is the far more likely explanation. I would like to say Scarlet that, although we may disagree on certain points, I am a great admirer of your blog and work. Jules800
ReplyDeleteHi Jules800, no problem and it is always more interesting to share thoughts with people who think differently about things, or about what most likely happened in this case. I also agree that mostly everyone who has invested time and thoughts into this disappearance case will share that feeling of being left with a lot of questions, omissions and strange details. Whether or not someone's personal suspicions take a left or a right turn then depends on so many factors. Not just personal ideas about logic, but also where you come from, what your own experiences are in life, world view and many more factors probably. It is interesting to see how comments below videos made by Latin American youtubers, for instance, seem to be predominantly from people who believe these girls met foul play. While on some American dominated forums, the majority seems to give more weight to them getting lost. We have to always remember that Panama is a very different country in every sense of the word than, say, the USA or the Netherlands. We may not really know in detail what life is like there, in how far crime and slack police can be a factor in such missing person's cases. But on the other hand, most of us have experience with hiking I think and as hikers, we can all relate to the feeling of taking a wrong turn, or even getting really lost for a certain amount of time. So this feeling may strike us as more familiar and more reasonable either.
DeleteBut aside form that, the information we do have in this case can also simply seem far more logical or convincing for a Lost scenario than a crime one. I strongly believe it was a crime, but for now nobody has given decisive evidence for one or the other scenario, yet.... Thanks for your kind words.
Best wishes Scarlet :)
The reality is that very few places are "safe" in south and central america, there is a lot of shady stuff going on if you can see past the facade the gov. of those countries put up in order to not damage their image and attract more tourists. I personally believe they were murdered in cold blood, it is not unheard of for men in those parts of the countries to abudct local women, brutally violate them and hack them to pieces of machetes and those are with local women...
ReplyDeleteBut by the way the locals and the police have behaved in this case i highly doubt anything like a murder weapon or the rest of their remains will ever surface ever.
The sad reality is that there are so many pieces of contradictory info that a normal chronology cannot even be constructed.
DeleteBefore the discovery of the backpack, the Panamanian consensus was that they appeared at around 13:30 at the trail. The media reports had to use 2 stand-ins for re-enactment.
Then the 11:30 start with 13:30 summit became the "standard" chronology which made a mess of locals who claimed to have seen them in the afternoon. I agree there may be a case of mistaken identity for Kris but Lisannne at 184 cm is impossible to miss.
The person who placed the backpack to be found might had no involvement in the disappearance and found it elsewhere with no real knowledge of its background. Then when the news was heard, it made sense for this person to give up the items without being discovered.
Perhaps out of respect for the deceased, the person might have cleaned the backpack exterior thinking it was the right thing to do. The foul play hypothesis had not yet gained much traction and it was socially understood to be an accident. But from a later investigative point of view, it created more questions.
As for law and order south of the USA, the Western media, since the end of the Cold War,
has been pushing the narrative that only anti-Western Reds such as Fidel Castro and Che Guevara are the bad guys. The rest are supposed to be full of traditional virtues.
Non-Reds which are not so good such as Manuel Noriega (seems no one mentions him with regards to Panama) and Pablo Escobar are portrayed as unusual freaks.
Hi, thanks for your comment. Yeh I think you are right, there has been so much conflicting and (mis-)information spread around over the years,that we cannot even be 100% certain about the most basic timeline or the first day.. Even if we go by the official version of events as presented by the authorities, there is the inconvenient nuisance of more than a handful of witnesses who should then be cast aside. Most people have no qualms about that, because handbook 101 (or whichever handbook) tells them that witnesses have been known in the past to remember things incorrectly, and thus allwitnesses can in principle be deemed unreliable. Boom, solved :)
DeleteYes I mentioned Noriega shortly in the intro of my part 2 blog. And it also passes by when Chris from ImperfectPlan is quoted in that blog, as well as in the parts about Lee Zeltzer. But it is fleeting indeed, Noriega is mostly an interesting topic I guess when discussing the possible (social behaviour) legacy of living under a dictator for the average people in Boquete, in this case.
As for America (not so much the Western media) demonizing certain latin-American countries; from what I understand, the USA have in the past not limited themselves to places like Panama, Argentina and Chile when it came to interfering with their democracies. Greece (Papadopoulos), Vietnam and many more counties were dealing with American political interference over the decades; not due to supposed traditional values, but in the ongoing war against socialism, masked as a war against communism. America has been very happy to replace a decent guy like Allende for the monster Pinochet, to name one example. Anyway, this is all going way too far for this blog's case, but a lot of dictators have ruled long and safely under the protection of the USA (and it has nothing to do with western values or the Western media). Oh and Escobar has been made to look very cool recently in fact in a TV series ;)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHello. I recently found out about this tragic story and it shocked me, like many, literally in a dream I scrolled through possible scenarios of what happened and pretty quickly dropped the criminal line, well, no matter how she did not want to stick together with me (Sorry if you disagree with this) ... At some time, looking through the night photos, one thought struck me and I began to work it out and I really liked it, but I came across one inconvenient argument, its essence is this: would Kris and Lisanne carry garbage with them? And how long? The girls are cultured Europeans, they probably collected everything in a package, but how much would they carry it with them in the jungle? And now I'll get to the point. When I was looking through the photo of SOS-Pringles I almost jumped at the thought: What the hell is the bottom of the can lying there on the stone on APRIL 8 !!! Before going to the store, they bought meager reinforcements and already on Mirador had to eat some of it, and there was still a whole day ahead and in the evening in stress, exhausted, they had to empty this can of Pringles, They still did not know what awaited them and that food needed to be saved ... I am more than sure that by the morning of April 2, they had finished all their leftovers. And when we use something, we either throw it away or recycle it. But what is the bottom of the can doing on the rock on April 8th? Well, they could not carry this garbage with them in their backpack for seven days. Imagine: you spent the night in the jungle, you already have stress and panic, you often start to climb into your backpack, take two phones, take cough drops, whatever, then put your phones away again, and then this damn bag of trash. You will start psychosis and you will throw it away, least of all thinking about the consequences (they are not yet aware that any little thing can come in handy), the same garbage can be scattered to leave a mark. And now, logically scrolling this in my head, I come to the conclusion: SOS trash and girls on April 2-3 ended up at the location of night photos (I originally thought on April 1-2, but corrected it, I don't know why). And we spent the whole time there, at least until April 8th. They did not stray through the jungle, not once. And a few days later I tried to solve the problem of photo 509. And this is what happened. After studying the studies of people who are probably much smarter than me and who, through experiments, made one of the conclusions that photo 509 could have been deleted by Lisanne herself before the next photo, but the following photos were taken a week later. Why was the camera silent? The answer, it seems to me, solves THREE riddles at once (509, 7 days of camera silence, night photos). After the last daytime snapshot 508, oh, these girls, the photo is too important a part of their life, someone is posing, someone is taking pictures and during the next picture Lisanne stumbled, there are stones and streams everywhere, the camera falls from hands into the water, the picture is ruined and mood too (there is some kind of evil spirit behind Mirador, some troubles). The camera turns off until the consequences are clarified. And after a while it dries, And here is the climax: Lisanne decides to try it at night (you probably noticed that she does not sleep at night). Turning on . Looks at the files, REMOVES THE LUBRICATED 509 and makes Us a wonderful experimental night photo shoot. SHE DID NOT FLASH SIGNALS, it's pointless in the middle of the night. Of course, everything may not be at all as I described here, but in this extremely confusing matter, any scenarios are possible. By the way, Kris is alive in the night picture, but that's a different story. It is possible that all the problems started from this emergency with the camera, that if Lisanne stumbled to dislocate her leg, these dislocations often do not immediately manifest themselves. Who knows who knows...
ReplyDeleteHi Евгений
Deletethanks for sharing your thoughts here. yes, good point. If Kris and Lisanne had carried rubbish with them, which seems evident in the night photos (pile of torn up paper, red plastic and such), then my own feeling is that they would have used it way sooner to mark their trail. For themselves (backtracking), for search troops. Indeed, why carry it along with your for a whole week? The problem with a scenario in which they were stuck in the same place for many days, is that this area where the remains were eventually found wás searched by Sinaproc and others. They weren't there. This region is inhabited, has cattle, farmers, tourists, guides, the army at some point looking for them, sometimes even with dogs. Helicopters. Had they been stuck or stationary at one place for so long, then it makes little sense that nothing was found of them. Nothing...
Photo 509 could have been deleted through a complicated set of actions, but imo the most straight forward explanation for it missing entirely is that it was deleted with a computer. The screens of the phones were not cracked... The sunglasses were not damaged.
best wishes Scarlet
Hello Scarlet and thank you for your amazing work gathering informations on this case.
ReplyDeleteI remember my very first thought was that they were killed by a wild animal after getting lost, but the more I digged into it and the less I could imagine any other explanation than a murder.
Whatever we believe, many details are confusing. But one thing triggers me a lot in the losters theory: if the girls were really lost in the jungle with no 3rd party involved, then I cant possibly understand nor explain why they didnt turned on Kris' phone between April 6 and April 11. Considering the phone still had 22% battery left when it got turned off on April 11, it does not make any sense at all than no attempt was made in the 5 previous days to use it again, as it legitimely seemed to be the best (only?) way out - especially after the second attempt on day one was pretty encouraging as it connected for a couple of seconds. If one had been wandering for 6 days in a jungle with a phone trying to call 112/911 everyday, they would obviously not decide "yeah what the hell I only have 22% left, let's sleep here 5 more nights before trying again".
The only possible reason I see why they wouldn't try to use the phone is because they could not, and that can mean only 4 things:
- they were both dead after April 6
- they did not have access to their phone between April 6 and April 11 (someone else had the phones)
- they did not have any chance to use their phone between April 6 and April 11 (someone was watching them)
- the phone stopped working on April 6 and started working again on April 11.
The first 3 hypothesis all involve a 3rd party and therefore leads to the murder theory
The 4th hypothesis seems very unlikely because why would the phone stop working ? Except for falling into the water, but then the people who analysed the phone would have easily notice, for even back in 2014 any phone manufacturer was able to refuse a guarantee assurance in case of phone drowning.
Anyway, I just hope the girls died quickly because spending 11 nights in a jungle cetainely is an aweful death.
These nights photos are frightening as hell and not knowing if Kris was alive or dead on that hair pic kept me awake many hours.
I agree with you. It just makes no sense.
DeleteHello Scarlet and Sorry about my English, it's poor. my thought about the video where they found empty bags and an insole. I alone see that part of the insole under the metatarsus is soaked in blood? There was an injury to the foot, the foot was swollen, and Lissan removed the insole to ease the pain. And I put the shoes on the sore foot again to go ... And one more thing: was the insole examined: is it from the found (left) boot ?? ..... The found boot had an insole ?? ..... This answers some questions.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the reddit warning. Its true and its a shame. Was on there myself in the past but its like trying to join that small popular but mean clique in High school. No space or respect for members who think differently. Seen so many excellent contributors there leave. I stopped counting honestly. Just one depressing echo chamber these days. The only people properly challenged are people believing Kris and Lisanne met foul play. No good atmosphere, just aggression and entitlement there. Moderators invisible until someone uses strong language towards losters. Just a waste of energy really. But its a shame as this case deserves and needs a forum platform and online discussion. But reddit is dead and I would also advise people against joining the KremersFroon sub reddit. sad
ReplyDeleteHi Scarlet, Do you think there is a possible that this case will be solved ? I am asking that myself a lot. Is the evidence which the found (for example Sand in the backpack) still stored?
ReplyDeleteLikely happened?
ReplyDeleteThe girls meet with the 2 guys Osman and Jose. Who are gang members, but Osman is fond of Lisanne on Monday 31 March, 2014
The girls decide to go hiking Tuesday 31 March, 2014. They eat breakfast at the host family before leaving and then go to restaurant where they are seen with Osman and Jose eating.
They tell Osman and Jose that they are going on the Il Pianista trail and then drive there by the Taxi driver Leonardo beginning the trail with the restaurant dog Blue.
At 1:30 they drive there by the taxi driver as he said, 1:40 Lisanne's Samsung phone get a sudden battery charge from someone likely either the Taxi driver or Osman.
Shortly after Blue go home.
They take the pictures on the trail and go some time into the trail, but being fatigued early and lacking supplies they return back before the end of the trail which take about 4 hours.
It is unclear how long they stay on the trail but it is likely no more than 2 and a half hours. Its also unclear if Osman and Jose is with them or not, but they and the Taxi driver,
knows where they are.
The trouble happens in the leaving of the Il Pianista trail, where they likely either has to wait for hours at a bus stop the tour guide Feliciano told them to wait by,
though this is a area dangerous with gang activity, or to take a taxi cap or hitch hike or go with Osman and Jose all which are very dangerous choices as it leaves them in the hand
of people they don't know if they can trust, and with no one knowing where they are or expecting them at a specific time.
The gang finds them and take advantage of the opportunity, perhaps with the help of Osman and Jose who are gang members with a criminal back ground, and likely Henry Eliezer Gonzalez
ReplyDeleteor Emanuel Efrain Rios Gonzalez , who was convicted of raping and killing a 50 year old woman, is a gang member and the step son of Feliciano Gonzalez the tour guide of Kris and Lisanne.
Jorge Rivera Miranda and Edwin Aguirre the son of the restaurant holder who swam with them in Caldera both which was killed later is likely there too and apart of the same gang.
A gang which by all accounts seem to have about 20 members.
They rape and have fun with the two girls, feeling confident in their numbers and connection which gives them power.
Osman who is fond of Lisanne may have had a objection and this gets him killed on the 4th of April.
The tour guide when finding out Lisanne and Kris is missing immediately suspect foul play and that his son could be involved, and go to the girls place to get rid of any clues which could
have him (who was supposed to have met them and so is a likely suspect) and his son who was with the girls before and have a criminal record convicted or suspected.
So the tour guide get rid of whatever evidence which might go against him and his step son and their gang, which is why it takes him 5 hours before he report the girls missing to the police.
Eileen a German worker working at the school who cancelled the appointment on the 1st of April with Kris and Lisanne, is informed by the tour guide Feliciano
she gets spooked and suspect foul play and so she leaves the country shortly after finding out that Osman is dead and that Kris and Lisanne is likely dead because of local gang activity.
As time goes on and the investigation get more attention the gang gets worried and trust becomes a issue, the Tour guide Feliciano, his son and workers help get rid of evidence while
ReplyDeletepretending to look for the girls, which is also in the governments best interest as they are looking to close the case, and do the least possible to alarm potential tourist which will
both save and make them money. Besides they have no interest in taking on the local gang, both because it is dangerous and because the gang is Panamanian and there is ill feelings toward
rich white foreigners, and a acceptance of the criminal activity in Panama which is justified because of poverty and western oppression.
the growing fear leads to the murder of both Jorge, Edwin, Jose and the taxi driver Leonardo as well within a year after Kris and Lisanne disappear.
Which help the remaining gang members, especially the son of the tour guide to have less fear of getting caught and also loose money from Feliciano's tour guide business and coffee plantation