The disappearance of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon in Panama, Boquete 2014 - an ongoing mystery
The missing Dutch girls in Panama
The missing Dutch girls in Panama
4 December, 2019 I want to write something about a missing persons case that has kept the Netherlands awake for some time now. It is a relatively "old" case actually, from 2014, but there has been continuously written about it ever since, including in The Daily Beast where quite a few in depth investigating articles on this chilling disappearance appeared. I got sucked in so bad again recently, that for some time I had nightmares and trouble sleeping and thinking about anything else than what these fellow Dutchies must have gone through. Warning, it is a frightening mystery that has amassed huge coverage on news sites, blogs, youtube videos and forums; the many cryptic clues and unanswered questions give this case almost a cult status. These blog posts I made on the 'Kris and Lisanne case' started as a small write up, but have by now grown into a ridiculously long read. When I tried to make some sense out of this disappearance case (back in 2018/2019), there was on the one hand very limited public information with regards to what actually happened to Kris and Lisanne, and on the other hand a lot of journalistic work done on the matter which had not always been highlighted much. It was clear that the story had some gaping holes and that there was conflicting information out there. I have tried to shine a light on all this publicly available info about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne and I tried to bring all this scattered information together here (call it a form of Open-source Intelligence), with source links provided whenever possible. Instead of having all these pieces of information scattered all over the internet, I brought them together here in a (long) and ordered overview of what is publicly known about the case by now. This includes interviews, journalistic pieces, statements from people linked to this case, investigation results, new findings, leaked photos and files and more. I also translated many videos and articles of interest from Dutch to English in order to provide you with the most detailed archive of this case.
Continue reading here,
where the main story continues
Thank you, Scarlet, for putting together so much information on this case. It’s obviously been a massive amount of work for you, and I think your attempts to stay as neutral and openminded about all the conflicting evidence and hearsay is admirable (particularly when Blogger decides to delete parts!)
ReplyDeleteAs you say, what makes Lisanne and Kris’s disappearance totally absorbing (and equally frustrating) is that neither the lost, or murdered, theory is plausible without huge a leap of faith to fill in the missing detail. Almost none of the evidence can be trusted on face-value and what one armchair detective thinks is most plausible another finds completely absurd.
I feel, like you, that something far more sinister happened to Kris and Lisanne than simply getting lost, injuring themselves and dying from hunger or exposure. Like many I find the lack of calls, messages, photos or videos recorded in the 10 or so days they were considered lost strange, when they ostensibly were calling the emergency services several times a day at the same time.
The only explanation for the night photos that seem to make reasonable sense to me is that they were using the flash to try to signal for help. I think this would be directed at inhabited buildings they may have thought were relatively close by as I don’t think you would signal to helicopters unless you heard one approaching. But there is the question of why they would suddenly do this on the tenth night, particularly if they had been trapped in the same spot since they went missing. I wonder whether these photos were actually taken early on the 2 April when the fear about their situation would still be acute (and Kris’s hair would still be clean, if unkempt from being off the trail in the forest). Perhaps it was these photos which actually gave away their location to those who they had hoped they had evaded (presuming they had been intimidated by a third party on their return to the Mirador and went further into the jungle to put distance between them). If their camera and phones had been taken from them and used by a third party once the night photos were taken this might be why no personal record of them existed after this, only anonymous calls to the emergency services, an odd search for the host mother (Myriam’s) number (not called) and Kris’s PIN being forgotten.
I’m torn on whether the swimming photo shows Kris and Lisanne or not. Lisanne’s body language doesn’t quite fit with what we know about her from her other photos. Although happy to have her photo taken and usually smiling and posing, she always looks a little self-conscious. To pose arms with her arms wide and dominating the space around Kris who usually is the focus of a photo (I’m sure by mutual unspoken agreement!) doesn’t seem like her. But this is her pose in the swimming photo. This seems particularly the case if you consider she might be topless and has no control over what might happen to the photo once taken. The only way I can square that it is Kris and Lisanne is to think they might be drunk or high, so they would have far fewer inhibitions than usual and Lisanne’s usual self-consciousness might not be evident. But again, I don’t feel they would have voluntarily drunk a lot of alcohol or taken drugs with young local men they didn’t know (these weren’t other tourists or even people they could communicate in the same language with). But then again, there is such a small window of time when the photo could have been taken and the chance of other people being in the area who look just like Lisanne and Kris is so small. Add to this that everyone involved in that photo (if we presume it was Kris and Lisanne) died shortly afterward in suspicious circumstances, it seems slightly naive to believe the official glib statement that it has been confirmed that it is two other women. So, I am 50/50 on whether to believe the women in the swimming photo are Kris and Lisanne.
Ctd…
Thaks for your kind words anonymous. Yes it has been a lot of work. I had no intention to write so much about it, initially. But it is a gripping case and every time when more details became known, I felt I had to update that blog. And now it has become a monster project.. I think it has that gripping effect on many people because we have a lot of details in this case. Things like the diaries, the phone log info, the photos, the night photos of course. So that all draws you in and gives the promise of this case being solvable. But then everybody hits a wall at some point, because there are some vital details missing as well. And thus we never can become 100% certain about what happened.
DeleteThanks! Well I at least provide source links all the time and whenever possible. So people can read the sources for themselves and verify things for themselves. But nevertheless there are always people not pleased with my work and trying to pass it off as sensationalistic (because I don't believe they got lost in the end) or biased. But I yet have to read a detailed coverage of this case where the author remained 100% neutral.
What can not be denied - for any sane and intelligent person - is that the investigation was incredibly underwhelming and not following protocol. The searches were way too limited. People of interest were not properly and forensically investigated. Crime scenes were muddled, DNA and fingerprint checks were flawed at best. I don't know with certainty either what happened. But all in all, this case indeed seems more than they having gotten lost. Unless someone who knows more comes forward, this case will never be solved.
Thanks for your thoughts on the night photos. Yeh, but when you go by the signalling for help theory, it instantly raises the question why they waited with this until the 8th night? Why not on the 1st or 2nd night out there? And who did they flash? There were definitely no helicopters flying at night, that has been verified. Search troops did not move in the dead of night either. Out of nearly 100 photos, not one caught an animal, so chasing away potential animals for nearly three hours straight seems also unlikely. And if there was habitation nearby, why then did nobody hear their screams? Why did nobody pass them, if that was inhabited terrain? They simply could not have been anywhere near those main rivers; those areas were searched and nothing was found of them, not even candy wrappers or anything they could have left behind along the trail. No dogs found their scent either. Those rivers are frequently visited and passed by people. If they took those photos on the 2nd night, who manipulated the time and date settings then? That would imply evidence manipulation, not a straight forward 'innocent' lost situation. I do lean towards those photos having been staged by a 3rd party. Exactly because they show nothing. Not the girls themselves (aside from the back of a head), not their clear location, not their backpack, they are as vague as one could possible achieve, if given that brief on the outset. The only thing they achieve is to give off the impression that these young women were 'lost' in the 'wild'. The entire accident theory was built on these photos and the minimal and odd phone log info.
With regards to the swimming photo, I understand that not everybody sees it as a piece of evidence. I do believe this photo to be legit because it was leaked together with the diaries and the night photos. And the diaries and night photos are all proven legit. Also, the existence of this photo was already known for years before it was leaked. Osman Valenzuela had this photo on his phone and police confiscated the phone after he was found drowned on April 4th of 2014. The photo quality is shit, this was a mobile phone photo (from a local Panamanian who may not have been rich and able to purchase the best mobile phone) and not one of the best quality, but still I am 99,9% certain myself that it are them pictured. Also from my normal profession I believe to be certain it are them, physically, visually.
DeleteThe issue is constantly that you have rarely 100% certainty. But there was consistent gossip about this photo already in April of 2014, some coming from reliable sources in Boquete. Of course, people like Pitti and lost believers will do everything they can to sow doubt about it and of course there are some arguments to be made against it (grainy photo, it could have been two other tourists in theory). I guess in the end it is down to everyone individually to determine if they believe it to be real evidence or not. But the fact that police did not give back this phone to Osman's parents may explain why this photo and information about it have not been spread by case officials.
I understand what you're saying with regards to the pose and the notion that they may have been swimming topless (if it are them pictured). Kris had a boyfriend at home, perhaps she was not eager to picture this event. But they also went out partying in Bocas, according to their diaries and there weren't many photos of this either. But we know they had a good time and liked to dance and drink until the early hours. It is easy to make shy awkward intellectuals from Kris and Lisanne, but they were also young, attractive and fun loving young people I think. And they were disappointed on Monday with the whole delay of their pre-planned volunteer work. They may have wanted to go back to the Bocas good times (swimming, young men of their own age) in Boquete as well, considering they had 4 more weeks to spend at that point...
It is a guessing game in the end though.
Best wishes Scarlet
Guide F’s actions were certainly shady, and I would posit that if he wasn’t responsible to Lisanne’ and Kris’s disappearance himself, whoever did was threatening him. His actions seem a combination of wanting to protect himself from suspicion, fear that he might be made a scapegoat along with a determination to plant himself fully into the investigation (from insisting he had seen Kris and Lisanne, barging into their room and spending time there possibly interfering with evidence and ultimately finding their remains). Especially illuminating is his role guiding Kris’s parents along the trail a few weeks after their daughter’s disappearance, which is either a sign of pure psychopathy (if he harmed them) or feeling guilty that he knew how their daughter disappeared and wanting to help them without betraying whoever might be threatening him (or possibly being tasked with monitoring them on someone else’s behalf).
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I don’t think I’ve seen mentioned in your blog is how cartels have been known to randomly kill people (especially women) who have nothing to do with their business to distract the police away from their organised crime. I recall reading about this being partially the reason the murder rate for women in Columbia is so high (I’m recalling this from articles about ten years ago). Unfortunately, I’ve searched but I can’t seem to find any further information on this, so perhaps it may be an urban legend. In Kris and Lisanne’s case though, it would have been useful to have so much police and media attention focussed on Boquete to organised crime in other parts of Panama.
With all the mistrust of all the evidence in this case that would normally be the bedrock of an investigation I do wonder if some sleight of hand has been pulled off right under our noses. One thing I question is the DNA testing on Kris’s bones (her strangely bleached hip and rib)- who was the testing done by? If this is suspect then it may be that they weren’t actually Kris’s remains at all, which may mean that she could still be alive somewhere.
I think so much in this case is reliant on finding out where the night photos were taken. This would almost certainly tell us if Kris and Lisanne left the Pianista trail or not and we could work back from that to find out when they in that location, and why, and what their ultimate fates were.
Sorry, that was a bit of an essay! Also, I can only post anonymously as Google is refusing to let me log into my account. I hope some of this may be interesting to you- please do keep looking for the truth on this. Hopefully one day we might have a better idea of what happened to Kris and Lisanne.
Lucy
One of the chief suspects is guide F's son (or is it stepson?). So, there is a reason for him to get so involved.
DeleteHi Scarlet, thanks for putting so many evidence, ratiocinations from Chinese netizen with righteous indignation:
ReplyDeleteDoubts:
1. Have you found that the incident of making a phone call is fixed, just like clocking in and out of get off work, it does not correspond to a normal person's reaction at all.
2. Why do you need to unlock an emergency call? Emergency calls never need to be unlocked.
3. In the rain forest for two months, the metal parts of the electronic products in the bag will also get damp and rust, but the fact is that they are intact.
4. The deleted photos are not deleted on the camera, because the deleted photos from Canon or Nikon cameras can be recovered by technology, which is obviously processed by the computer.
To sum up: even without an autopsy, it can be concluded that it was definitely a homicide, and the perpetrator was very arrogant and deliberately exposed clues to mislead the police. The murderer is related to the tour guide Gonzalez, but not necessarily him, but may be his male relatives or friends.
Last words: to these Panama murdering savaged motherfuckers, may they rest in hell.
Hi Scarlet,
ReplyDeleteAn amazing work of putting the data together. I had recently, about a week ago heard about the case.
I have an ability of thinking as another person due to my childhood/teenager games, my games were all about becoming someone else in my mind and detailing everything in my mind. (like a being a certain footballer and living the life of his in my mind, in other being a politician, cook, doctor, etc.. and my games lasted like a year or two). I feel myself quite special in detailing the emotions and understanding the decision making of the people.
Your work is amazing and it's my biggest source of database. When I look the current evidences, What happened until 16.00- 16.30 looks very clear to me and sitting very obviously in front of us with a tiny distractions... From 16.30ish to 7th of April is also predictable with relatively higher confidence. However, it's quite hard and all about endless possibilities after 7th.
I will think about it a bit more and have a look little bit more on the data, then I may write my thesis on this.
I can give hints on my thesis In short before coming with more details: As most can feel, this is not an accident... They didn't go any further then the last normal photo location. They are not captured in the hike either.
It's such a heart breaking story and reminds us the world is not full of good people but with evil people in it who are seeking for other's vulnerabilities too.
Hi Scarlet ,
ReplyDeleteHere are my findings;
- Girls went to Pianista both on 31st of March, and 1st of April. That's why there is a confusion around the hiking start time.
While 7 eye witnesses say seeing them at the beginning of the trial, asking for Pianista at around 16.00
Taxi driver dropped them around 13.50 at the conjuction point of El Pianista and Pedro de Alto Lino trails on March 31. Both of these two trails are around 1km( around 10 mins walk) away from their drop off point and they head into the Pedro de Alto Lino trail first. They asked for Pianista trail to a few people there.
Perhaps they get confused and wanted to gather more info and come back again after spending around 2 hours in there. One lady mentions seeing them getting into car. Probably they get back to school (connected to Internet and searched for Pianista at 16.40 at school). Then They went to pianista trial early in the morning on the following day, 1st of April.
- Girls have taken more photos from 508. Someone deleted the photos until 509, but not deleted the 509 initially. By the night photos, all the photos are overwritten and not recoverable. However, he then noticed photo 509 was also revealing something. Probably not something very obvious to
see at first sight, maybe a location, maybe something less significant but still revealing. With the media coverage and pressure , he didn't have time to delete all photos back until 508, then retake some other pictures. H deleted the photo 509.
Deletion of photo 509 is more like a speculation, based on a feeling. But my first point, them being at Pianista both on 31st of March, and 1st of April is backed by evidences.
I went into more details and evidences on this video, with the eye-witness interviews.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjvDfyIxn3s
The cartel would be the last place I’d look they don’t want the attention which is what that area has now and there would be no reason to harm them anyway the cartel would know exactly where they where at all times and steer them away from them or their operation!!!! It all had to be local people involved!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHello Scarlet,
ReplyDeleteI have been attached to this case for a few years now and I have perhaps read everything about it, the leading sources being Jeremy Kryt on the Daily Beast, and above all, your blog. As you know, this case is so addictve that one keeps coming back again and again. I am neither a "lost" believer nor a hardcore "murder" addict - the known facts are such that it is impossible to entirely rule out either theory. What is incredible, however, is the fact that this case has not been reopened by the panamanian authorities, with regard to the forensic evidence and the information that has been gathered to the present day by bloggers and journalists alike. Do you know of any legal mechanism that would allow family members to plead with a court in Panama to have the case reviewed? Just pretending there was someone who would take on that task. I see that there seems to be an initiative of some sorts raising funds to go to Boquete, trying to look for fresh evidence. If they find something, if only the location of the night photos, that might be an opportunity to take legal action. But I'm afraid the necessary funds might very quickly surpass the project's intended budget. That makes fundraising the key factor in this matter. Is there any information on the present state of the "Find Kris and Lisanne" foundation? Could there be a new crowdfunding mechanism? I would certainly help in every way I can if there was enough support in the right places.
Kind regards,
Christian
Maybe, if you permit, and for all newbies to this case, I have tried my hand at a summary of pros and cons of both "lost" and „murder“ scenarios.
ReplyDeleteLOST scenario
pros:
- K&L were unexperienced in jungle hiking and ill-equipped
- difficult terrain with steep falls, ravines and crossings
- ventured out into the far side of the cordillera (maybe unintentionally by mixing up both downhill trails)
- some say there are multiple paths that cross the trail north of mirador - easy to get lost
- river beds can quickly become death traps, even in dry season
- rain set in a few days after disappearance
- phone logs seem to show the women had been alive for 11 days
- night photos possibly show the location where at least one of the women got stuck and perished
cons:
- some witnesses (guide F., Kris’ parents) say it’s next to impossible to get lost on the trail
- experts say it is also next to impossible to survive without food and clean water for 11 days in the jungle
- the area is not remote wilderness - cattle pastures and villages all around
- phone logs do not support panic situation during the first 24h after disappearance
- phone logs do not support rational behaviour after 24h - no change in behaviour pattern at all
- search teams did not find K&L in spite of very prolonged and thorough search
- trailer dogs did not find any trace of K&L in search area
- backpack was found nearly intact and dry - cannot have been out in the jungle all along
- Kris’ shorts were found well away from her pelvic bones
- no farewell messages recorded on phones or camera
MURDER scenario
pros:
- there seem to have been multiple incidents on the Pianista trail shortly before
- several similar incidents of diappearances in the area before and after "Las Holandesas"
- Kris’ bones were bleached, possibly by using chemicals
- photo no.509 has been intentionally deleted using a computer by third party (or police?)
- guide F. behaves strangely immediately after their disappearance - breaks into room, goes out on trail - to destroy evidence?
- guide F. was also involved in finding remains - just at the right moment and in the right place to suggest accident
- forensic evidence gives impression to have been planted
- evidence appears only after $30K reward has been offered
- night photos do not show K&L
- two bodies reported to have been found a few days into search, but soon after this was denied by authorities
- unexplained deaths of two local young men shortly after K&L disappeared - possible witnesses?
- taxi driver is killed a year after disappearance - possible witness?
- phone logs could easily have been tampered with (police or 3rd party) as a cover-up
- night photos could have been taken by someone else as a cover-up
- entering PIN 77 times is inexplicable - emergency services can be dialed without entering code
- ball of Lisanne’s skin found in odd place and not in line with state of decomposition of other remains
- police quickly close case and are suspiciously certain in discarding homicide theory
- prosecutor’s superior at the time had served under the former junta government and possibly had ties to local authorities (and gangs?)
cons:
- they were two - almost all similar incidents of homicide involve persons travelling alone
- a potential killer would immediately have destroyed all evidence and not let phones and camera escape
- theory of mock-up night photos and tampering of phone logs is far too complicated, time-consuming and prone to mistakes
- Ockham’s razor therory suggests homicide scenario as least probable
- all people who have unimpeded access to complete information on the case come to the conclusion it was a hiking accident
Hi
Deletethanks for your efforts, and it's fine by me to publish your comment here. But you have to be sure that what you list as arguments is true. For instance, you wrote as an argument against a crime, that "they were two - almost all similar incidents of homicide involve persons travelling alone."
That isn't true and I have singled out a couple of duo killings on this blog in fact, and this is the sort of argument that could have been easily debunked also by a simple google search. German cyclist Holger Hagenbusch and Krzysztof Chmielewski were both found dead in a ravine in Mexico in 2018, for instance. Two young female French tourists were both raped, tortured and murdered in a national park in Salta, Argentina (Cassandre Bouvier and Houria Moumni). Louisa Vesterager Jespersen and Maren Ueland were both murdered gruesomely while hiking in Morocco. Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were both found murdered on a beach on the island of Koh Tao in September 2014. And let's not forget the two murdered backpackers in Ecuador, beautiful Marina Menegazzo, 21, and María José Coni, 22. The list goes on by the way.
Another pro for a Lost scenario would be in my book, that Kris and Lisanne seemingly were in possession of their phones during the 11 days these were used after they went missing. I can think of a crime explanation for this, but will agree with many people that by itself, this seems to point to a lost scenario.
As for "rain set in a few days after disappearance": there was barely any rainfall in the week after they went missing. It was an unusually dry period and the water in the rivers was unusually low.
A con for a Lost scenario, for me, is also the complete breaking off of their usual behaviour. They used to take many, many photos every day; they used to contact their parents every day; they used to write in their diaries every day and document their experiences. All of this stopped, while they did have the means to photograph, document, videotape or attempt to call or leave messages for their families. None of that was done, and the night photos we do have are intentionally vague, dark and taken at a time when nothing clear could be seen on them, not even who took these photos. That goes against their usual behaviour and thus (imo) is suspicious, as well as illogical.
Another con; ImperfectPlan will specify this soon in time to come, but even off-season during the rain, a good dozen people pass by on those trails behind the Mirador every single day. It is impossible to hike there, even off trail, and not run into anyone. This has been confirmed by many bloggers and hikers who walked these trails and IP will confirm this as well. This is also a major argument against the girls having an accident or getting lost, I think. Because they would have wanted to run into people and be found. And for nobody to have seen them after April 1st, in that relatively small area above the Mirador, is suspicious as well. Had they fallen in a ravine or been stuck in a specific place, then their remains would have been found there. There is no evidence of wild rivers reaching down ravines to displace entire bodies and a backpack and neatly deposit them near Alto Romero. That is make-belief and phantasy from Lost believers.
DeleteI also give quite a bit of weight to the swimming photo and everything surrounding it, including the long standing rumours in Boquete about its existence and it being linked to the premature death of Osman. And as for " a potential killer would immediately have destroyed all evidence and not let phones and camera escape"; we have it on camera and in print that both sets of parents vowed never to leave, until they found their daughters or found out what had happened to them. Something hád to be found (or planted), as these people had almost unlimited means to keep coming back and turning that jungle/area above Boquete upside down. Not something drug traders and criminals like to see.. Isn't it odd that Sinaprocs director said on camera and after months of professional searching that the girls were not there, befóre belongings and bones were suddenly found? In areas that had been searched.
Occam's razor is wildly misunderstood and misused, also in this case. See my comments in part 2 in this respect.
And lastly, you write: "all people who have unimpeded access to complete information on the case come to the conclusion it was a hiking accident".
This is again not true. Imperfect Plan have access to most information and believe it was a crime. Jeremy Kryt also made a u-turn after seeing the case files and speaking to key players, and also went from believing that it was an accident, to believing they were murdered. Pitti and her henchmen of course dispute this, but they are hardly neutral in all this.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for having me publish this text anyway. This was supposed to be a list of pro and con arguments, which might not necessarily be based on the actual facts. Please feel free to correct the list as you please to eliminate speculation.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSwitching on the cell phones in a daily, almost rhythmic period of time (sometimes accurate to the minute) is completely atypical for people looking for help in nowhere, that makes me extremely puzzled. Someone tried to generate signs of life during their break from work or at times that were determined by their environment, in which they briefly used the time unobserved to activate the mobile phone. I firmly believe a crime was committed here.
ReplyDeleteThe tour guide's son is conspicuous, he certainly knows more. In videos he actively behaves as if he were completely uninvolved, it is definitely played.
It's a mixed case.
ReplyDeleteInitially it's a lost case .
Then when Chris died by falling from height the rapists came there and raped lissane , but left her there .
The night photos were taken by lissane but she took them suggestively to depict how Chris was dead - if she didn't do that and escaped that jungle all blame would have been on her that it was groom who killed Chris .
scarlet look this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8Bn59Di_BA and this y<ou can walk on top https://youtu.be/QO2SdIccjj8?t=1205 zip lining https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgdQ7ljVolwand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rreraaFt4Sk
ReplyDeleteHello! Thank you for the tireless work you have undertaken on this blog. I’m super curious to know what you think of the latest podcast Lost in Panama? I saw a commentary on the first few episodes somewhere on the blog but can’t find it again! Be super grateful for a link! Thanks and all the best!
ReplyDeleteActually, I found the (excellent) commentary at top of Part 4 of the blog. Sorry for any confusion and thanks again for all your work <3
DeleteAh thanks. No problem asking because I have only today updated my podcast summary and commentary :) You can indeed find it at the top of blog part 4 now, but I also uploaded it all in this separate blog post, where I also added a point by point summary of the podcasts main findings. I may remove the text eventually from post 4 (takes too much space) but will leave it up in this separate blog post: https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html
DeleteBest wishes Scarlet
Have you heard this? What do you think? https://podtail.com/en/podcast/lost-in-panama/
ReplyDeleteHi, yes I have listened the entire podcast and extensively written about it. You can find my thoughts in part 4 of my blog or here: https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html
DeleteHi there Scarlet. My name's Andrew and I have a podcast that deals with mysteries of latin america and if you're interested, I'd love to interview you about the deaths of Kris and Lisanne. It's a new podcast, but the intention is to let people know in the rest of the world about some of the crazy stuff that goes on here in Latin America. If you're interested, my email is acovoice@gmail.com. Thanks and cheers from Cancun!
ReplyDeleteI remember this case but have only recently read the details. There's a lot of discussion on-line and understandably because this is a weird disappearance of two girls + associated people. I thought I might bring my perspective because the case bothers me so much. There are so many details I could write a book (as others have done). Many ideas I already agree with are presented so I'm only going to present my basic perspective and explore a few key aspects (some of which are disturbing but noting I am only speculating and these are simply opinions).
ReplyDelete1. Lost In The Jungle
If Kris and Lisanne (K&L) disappeared and were never seen again with no clues I would assume lost and death by misadventure (most likely - although something would probably be found consistent with being lost). But the things that were found like the backpack + belongings, the photos, the phones, miscellaneous remains of K&L, etc. were bizarre (i.e. location, condition, use, etc.) all of which indicate this is not a simple case of two people lost in the jungle.
2. Motive For Evil
There are all sorts of ideas floating around such as sex trafficking, organ harvesting, etc. Maybe, but I prefer simpler explanations. The girls were attractive, from a different place (so exotic), potentially vulnerable (for various reasons), etc., so a good target for local men looking for sex (consensual or forced).
3. Hike To Mirador
The walk up to Mirador is documented in photos and K&L seem in good spirits. They started at about 11 am and got there at about 1 pm and I don't think they encountered any problems.
4. Hike From Mirador
From Mirador they go the other side and lose phone reception. Unknown where they were going, but maybe the trek up was relatively easy for them and they decided to go a bit further. I don't think they returned from this side due to the phones not reconnecting again.
5. Human Behaviour
ReplyDeleteK&L behaviour up to Mirador is normal for them (lots of basic photos, selfies, goofiness, etc.). Then at or shortly after 508 (stream crossing) something happens. The abrupt change in behaviour is consistent with no further 'normal' photos (see below for night time photo discussion), missing 509, emergency calls but frankly bizarre use of phones, etc. The abrupt change in behaviour suggests something significant happened, which I think is (1) capture or (2) violent attack. I think Scenario (1) is more likely due to the events that followed.
6. The Swimming Photo
Is it K&L with the two men? Cannot be certain, but it looks like them. If it is K&L, then I doubt this was taken on 1 April afternoon (the phones never re-established contact after Mirador). Perhaps the day before and they didn't write it in their diaries because it is a risky thing to do (swimming with unknown men, my mum doesn't need to know + they didn't document it in their normal way with photos/selfies).
7. The Common Denominators
There are two major common denominators - Guide 'F' and his step-son 'H'. Guide 'F' inserted himself in many strange ways from the start (and continues to do so). I think he is a definite suspect, but I don't think he was directly involved. 'H' is on the periphery of events but due to his association with 'F' my opinion is that he might be involved. 'F' has a definite motive if 'H' was involved, so there is consistency in this perspective. I looked at the facebook page of 'H' and it gives some insight into the person (not good in my opinion and not someone that should be involved with tourists). There also seems to be a theme in some of the silly sexual memes presented, which I find particularly disturbing.
8. Death Of Associates
So many other people associated with the events and the common denominators above have died. Some are probably coincidental, but the death of Osman on 4 April and the death of Jorge exactly one year later (both by drowning in weird circumstances and both friends of 'H'!!!!) seem to be connected. There are other deaths, but these two stand out. Witnesses / participants in evil dying to hide the truth is not unusual.
9. Between 508 And 8 April
I think this was an opportunistic kidnapping, rape, and murder. K&L were observed to go up the Mirador and a gang of men followed them up there (maybe they were already there). If K&L had a guide (or perhaps any male company) they would have been safe. If they didn't leave the town, they would've been safe. But some guys saw them alone, caught them, took them somewhere, kept them for a week or two for sex, then murdered them.
An alternate scenario is that it could have been an organised 'opportunistic' planned kidnapping. There are many possibilities, but it's very strange the school turned K&L away despite the arrangements made, but this may have been part of a trap. The local gang possibly controlled by a larger cartel (i.e. professionals) get prior notice of the arrival of high quality targets, the girls are in town looking for other activities (because no work at the school), the local gang is watching (K&L unknowingly did have several interactions with alleged local gang members), and if the opportunity presents they are taken and sold / used for whatever. Rinse and repeat.
10. Evidence Of Death
ReplyDeleteAfter K&L's death, their belongings were kept (as a trophy? - not unusual practice for killers to keep something) and the bodies disposed of. But the international, high-profile attention was proving a problem for the authorities, and the appearance of a reward presented an opportunity for the locals. The bag + contents + shorts were planted (100% clear no doubt about this) and a few bones and flesh scattered. Why just a few bones - I think quite simply it's hard and dangerous carrying human remains in that mountain environment and they were scattered in common groups (i.e. a bit here, and then a bit more further on, and then empty the bag over there). The presence of other people's remains with K&L indicates the disappearance of people is not unusual (and it isn't as known from police and media). And after all this happens, who is the common denominator that finds or at least has association with all of these remains - our friend 'F'. I think it all stinks.
11. The Night Photos
One of the most disturbing and puzzling aspect of the case are the night photos on 8 April. So many theories and probably the truth will never be known. My theory is different to everyone else's (that I have read, maybe someone has already said something similar). I formed this view after viewing the photo collages, visiting 'H's facebook page, etc. All but a few photos are taken pointing up in roughly the same area. I think it is because the action is on the ground and the LCD screen is being used to provide light for what is going on there. K&L did not have the camera (they didn't have it past 508 or 509 at least) and someone else is using it as a low quality torch. I think it is being used to illuminate a sexual assault on K and the single random photo of the back of her head in the middle of the long photo set suggests a certain sexual position by the attacker(s), which might be consistent with some facebook memes I have seen somewhere. That photo may have been taken as a final 'memento'. She may even be deceased at this point and this is the final disgraceful act being perpetrated before disposal of the body - who knows. I don't think a person would sit in the jungle between 1 and 4 am randomly firing off photos of the trees, with a few in between that might show useful content, to put off investigators when they probably didn't know what to do with the camera + other belongings. But then these might not be sane people, maybe are drug affected, drunk, etc. - who knows. The sudden appearance of K on 8 April (assuming that really is her and not a wig or something else) is consistent with the idea that K&L were kept for a time and possibly able to access phones, but in an area without coverage.
12. Conclusion
This is all my perspective and I don't pretend to know what really happened. I could write so much more but so many other contributors have already posted so much detail, however it doesn't change anything. K&L are gone from this world and it seems many people associated with the events have been cursed. I hope the truth comes out and I can only wish the best for the families and friends of K&L and curse the killers. I have no doubt there are people that know the truth, particularly in Boquete, and wish they could overcome their fear and tell the truth, but I know the gangs and cartels are terrifying. It takes exceptional courage to break ranks and the people really need the authorities to be on their side against the criminals to enact change.
Mr. Damage, my thinking is along the same lines -- although your take on the night photos had not occurred to me but makes perfect sense. From the very beginning I believed they were sexually assaulted & murdered. The Guide F no doubt covering H's tracks. H sounds like a deranged sociopath. Those poor girls :(
ReplyDeleteHi, I just found your blog after someone posted a viral tweet about these missing girls -it's amazing research so thank you! Whilst I haven't read everything yet my first thought was these girls got lost in nasty jungle and died but I also considered that they could have been raped and murdered. There are so many strange things with this case firstly how did the bag get found so far from where they disappeared and what seems to be in good condition with the phones inside, the money and the camera. There was clearly no robbery here so if humans were involved I assume it's likely to be some sort of sexual attack but again if they were murdered it would be extremely careless to keep the items neatly in the rucksack and allow it to be found. That said why were their bras in the bag? Why would the girls remove them, could they have been some sort of trophy for someone? Worth noting no signs of blood or damage in the bag contents. How could the bag have got so far from where they were last known to be? I'm leaning here that one of the girls died earlier than the other (most likely this explains why the pin was incorrect after a number of days), I feel this was probably Kris and that Lisanne left her friend and tried to get help, took the bag with her but didn't make it. Perhaps the bag was found by ingenious people and taken to near where it was found? Was this ever explored? If one girl continue alone why not take photos of where the other lay to help find the body? This just doesn't make sense to me. The idea they were murdered and they were with the two boys in the swimming picture cannot be ruled out but it feels the less likely scenario to me (versus getting lost and ultimately dying in the Forest). For one the picture is really unclear and the Dutch police seemed confident it wasn't the missing girls in the picture, if it was them surely it would be journaled as before they went missing, if it was during the time they were missing it must have been after the first emergency call yet they do not appear to be in distress in that picture. Also if they were murdered it doesn't explain at all about the rucksack contents being found in such good, organised condition or why the girls would not take any pictures with these lads? I feel more likely it's just local heresay based upon the picture having some resemblance and I just cannot see the Dutch police (local may act differently) ruling it out if they felt it could be them.
ReplyDeleteSo based upon what I have read so far I feel they were alone at the summit in good spirits and ahead of time so likely decided to head towards the hidden waterfalls, they found this journey a bit tougher (hence the lack of smiling and reduced photos after the summit), one of them likely got injured (or possibly they were spooked by the presence of someone else) after they veered off a track to find it. The supermarket bag and shoe sole support this theory but cannot be relied upon. After several days I'm guessing Kris based away so Lisanne went off alone to find help but didn't make it and died. Maybe some ingenious people found the rucksack and brought or Kris lost it at a stream and made it's way down to where it was found.
Final though it's super hard to see the pics of the girls seemingly enjoying themselves on the summit to then know they disappeared and several calls to emergency services were made for eleven days afterwards you get a sense of unimaginable horror they likely went through.
Didn’t I read somehere that Panamean rescue used noise and flash on the night of April 8th. Could that explain the 90 flash pictures? I don’t find it odd that someone only scarcely use a 911 call when help is expected and signal is rare.I want to believe they got lost, perhaps after falling in a way that disabled them, and were never found. Horrible.
ReplyDeleteTruly disturbing event. Poor girls must've experienced sheer terror. Night time flash - what comes to mind is 1) in the absence of light, using it to navigate where they weren't sure of the footing, 2) using it to signal for help in the dark to over head planes, 3) using it to scare animals away that might be stalking them, 4) using it to show the path they took so if ever found, their path could be retraced to give clues, 5) someone who found the camera/ belongings was fascinated with it and taking snaps over and over in the dark not knowing what they were doing, 6) possibly planted as a "they got lost" idea in the case of foul play, 7) If one had fallen down into a ravine (if that's what it is) they may have been injured and the camera flash was being used to try to light it up to assist the person who fell, or to scare off animals there - the person taking the photos wouldn't have been able to navigate it to help.. would it have been dark or light when they fell, maybe it became dark.. that would explain being awake and appearing to travel at night-time when it is usually unwise - so they were travelling in the daylight, then the accident, then being awake all night trying to help her friend below who fell, then the camera flashes stop.. this may signify a terrible development such as a death or arrival of an animal - unlikely to have been a human at that point remotely in the dead of night unless a tribes type or madman ; of course it is also possible they were travelling during the night at that point trying to escape something.
ReplyDeleteA severed foot seems strange, a human would probably know how to open the boot to get at the foot, but an animal might not, and give up. But still there were no signs of animal clawing or teeth. Leads me to believe the rest of the body was simply torn-pulled from the foot and boot - so maybe her foot was caught in rocks, and only when the body was pulled away did the foot become torn and left behind.
If one passed away, and the other had no choice but to leave the body behind, the body may have been taken for food - the locals there would have a good idea of what animals could've done that.
The phone pin code - maybe if Kris died first, Lisanne did not know her pin code and was trying many permutations, maybe she believed it had better signal, or who knows.
Were the bones bleached by the phosphorous present in saliva from large animals 'licking' the bones over and over? No teeth marks - what about the belly of a large snake?
Of course there are strange pieces in this jigsaw, the missing photo, the huge area involved, the bones being together with others.. I believe there are people on this planet that do not think like us, and are very capable of toying with others with evil intentions. We see in Africa real cannibal tribes still exist, people living as if 10000 years ago, witchery, potions, and raw survival, butchery of animals daily, in-breeding, and torturous murder of humans that are different. The more I see of this one though, the more it feels like misadventure.
Scarlet you are so very kind to have spent so much time on this, putting it all together and presenting it for us. Thank you very much. Truly harrowing to read about, can only imagine the suffering Kris and Lisanne went through, I can only pray death was quick when it did come.