The missing Dutch girls in Panama
part 3 - all the chronological photos and the diaries
part 3 - all the chronological photos and the diaries
October 11th 2019 - This is part 3 with the chronological photos and diaries of Kris and Lisanne. If you are new here, please start reading about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne in my first blog post, here. And in part 6 you can read the most important interviews with the parents and families of Kris and Lisanne. Sas asked me below one of my youtube videos about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne: "Is there a website on which the readers here can see the official chronology of the Photos that were made by Kris and/or Lisanne? Which were taken with the phone, which with the digital camera and what are the times and days on which the pics were made..? Do you have a link to such a website for the readers here..? It could be convenient for the readers to have that oversight in this case." - Great suggestion! The photos we know of are predominantly published by the families themselves over time, or appeared in the media (not always in the best photo quality). Lawyer Arrocha also gave a photo to a befriended journalist who posted it. And Dutch TV programs like 'Een Vandaag' and 'Break Free' also published some in their TV programs on this disappearance (whole series with subs can be seen in my main blog post on this case). We even had to work with screenshots from TV broadcasts sometimes, which resulted in even worse quality photos. There is also a better sized photo here and there. Some were also leaked by people 'behind the scenes'. Unfortunately we don't have copies of all the Panama photos which Kris and Lisanne took. It is therefore also difficult to provide a chronological overview here. But I can publish all the publicly shared photos taken by Kris and Lisanne here. Thanks to Imperfect Plan's help, I can also give you their photo numbers and some further details.
DISCLAIMER: The quality of many (not all) of the photos is not ideal. The reason for that, as I also understand it from Juan, is that most (not all) of the photos as we know them have not been officially released in their original format by the family, but instead have been published by/leaked to the press or insiders. The Panamanian media who printed these photos readjusted the size of the original photos. Most versions as we know them are only between 1024x768 and 1600x1200 pixels in size nowadays, whereas the originals are 4000x3000 pixels. And a note from Imperfect Plan: None of the early pics have time stamps. 'Not cropped' refers to the image not appearing cropped, but this is not verified on a per pixel level. A Dutch "highly qualified digital forensics expert" from the NFI analyzed the camera and its SD card, and discovered a total of 470 photo files in JPG format and seven video recordings in PMB4 format on the memory card. A total of 134 photos were created after March 31st, numbered from #476 to #609. They fall into two categories: daytime photos from April 1, and nighttime photos from April 8. The NFI only examined image files that were taken after March 31, 2014, i.e. after the girls' disappearance.
Chronological order of the photos taken by/from Kris and Lisanne
Photos taken by family members
Taken on March 15th 2014 around 07:00 AM.
First the photos taken in Bocas del Toro,
between March 16 - March 29, 2014
between March 16 - March 29, 2014
Photo #167 (IMG_167)
This is the very first trip related photo taken. I do not have this photo.
Photo #170 (IMG_170)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #177 (IMG_177)
No time stamp.
Photo #181 (IMG_181)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #187 (IMG_187)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #188 (IMG_188)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #198 (IMG_198)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
Photo #199 (IMG_199)
No time stamp.
Photo #234 (IMG_234)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
Photo #238 (IMG_238)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #239 (IMG_239)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #249 (IMG_249)
No time stamp. Cropped. Photo is in portrait orientation.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
May be taken with a cell phone.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
May be taken with a cell phone.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Not taken with the Canon camera. Probably a cell phone photo.
Photo #268 (IMG_268)
No time stamp. Cropped a lot.
Photo #271 (IMG_271)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
Photo #293 (IMG_293)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
Photo #294 (IMG_294)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
Photo #298 (IMG_298)
No time stamp.
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Photo #299 (IMG_299)
No time stamp.
Photo #300 (IMG_300)
No time stamp.
Photo #302 (IMG_302)
No time stamp. Photo cropped.
Photo #306 (IMG_306)
No time stamp. Photo about 50% cropped.
Kris fully visible in original.
Kris fully visible in original.
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Photo #316 (IMG_316)
No time stamp. Photo slightly cropped.
Photo #317 (IMG_317)
No time stamp. Photo slightly cropped.
Photo #338 (IMG_338)
No time stamp. Photo cropped.
Photo #350 (IMG_350)
No time stamp. Photo slightly cropped.
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Photo #351 (IMG_351)
No time stamp. Starfish in foreground
cropped and background cropped
cropped and background cropped
Photo #355 (IMG_355)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #356 (IMG_356)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #358 (IMG_358)
No time stamp. Slightly cropped.
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Photo #? (IMG_?)
Not taken with the Canon camera. Probably a cell phone photo.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Not taken with the Canon camera. Probably a cell phone photo.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Not taken with the Canon camera.
Two photos taken by friends
Bas van Lieshout and Edwin Cornelis.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Not a photo taken with the Canon camera
(possibly taken with their mobile phone)
(possibly taken with their mobile phone)
Photo #372 (IMG_372)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #375 (IMG_375)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #416 (IMG_416)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #420 (IMG_420)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image not from the Canon camera.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image not from the Canon camera.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image not from the Canon camera.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image not from the Canon camera.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image not from the Canon camera.
Photo #? (IMG_?)
Image from Lisanne's phone
Second, the photos taken in Boquete
between March 29 - March 31st, 2014
between March 29 - March 31st, 2014
On Saturday March 29th, Kris and Lisanne arrived by shuttle bus in Boquete in the afternoon. They met their host family and checked out the nearby Spanish language school that day. On Sunday March 30th they explored Boquete, had lunch in town in 'Boquete Bistro' and explored the direct area. On Monday March 31st they went to a local children's school in the morning to start their volunteer work, but were sent away and told they had no place for them that week. The girls then went to the Spanish language school to tell what happened and waited for a good part of the day there for a coworker to try to find them another volunteer job for that week. In the late afternoon they had a long massage with a Dutch lady. On Tuesday April 1st they hiked the Pianista Trail and possibly went for a swim. (Swim may have happened the day prior also).
Photo #439 (IMG_439)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #441 (IMG_441)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #443 (IMG_443)
No time stamp. May also be #444, but probably 443.
Photo #446 (IMG_446)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #447 (IMG_447)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #454 (IMG_454)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #455 (IMG_455)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #456 (IMG_456)
No time stamp. Slight crop.
Photo #459 (IMG_459)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #460 (IMG_460)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #461 (IMG_461)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #462 (IMG_462)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #463 (IMG_463)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #464 (IMG_464)
No time stamp. Not cropped.
Photo #465 (IMG_465)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Photo #466 (IMG_466)
No time stamp. Cropped.
Video stills from a short video taken:
Third, the photos taken in Boquete on April 1st 2014
We know that 33 photos were taken this day with the digital CANON camera (34 if you count file #509 as well). Out of those, 23 photos have been made public, one way or another. The other 11 have been seen by several people, but weren't published. File #509 may have also been taken on April 1st, but this unknown and that file has also not been seen by anyone, as far as we know, as it disappeared. Matt wrote: "All 33 images were taken in 8 groups of 2 – 10 images each and show the same subjects or scenery from slightly different angles within those groups. Therefore, if there is one image from a group available, it is very easy to visualize what the missing ones show." On April 1st the known photo numbers start at #476 (IMG_476) and end with #508. It was shot at 11:18 AM. With regards to these times: I show you both the real time and the recalculated time (minus 6 hours), because the girls had not adjusted the correct year and local time on their camera. It was set to 2013 instead of 2014, and had the incorrect time. - Although there was a seven hours time difference between the Netherlands and Panama at that time, not six, I learnt that investigators may have been going with a deduction of six hours instead of seven because the default time zone for Canon cameras is usually set to London time (GMT), which was six hours ahead of Panama on April 1st of 2014).
Photo source: the BackpackerCoach
Specific photo numbers and times:
(*These are the official times as they were found on the Canon camera)
The next photos are all taken with the Canon on the Pianista trail:
(*These are the official times as they were found on the Canon camera)
The next photos are all taken with the Canon on the Pianista trail:
Photo #476 - April 1st 11:18:24 AM (officially 17:18 PM)
Photo #477 - April 1st 11:18:34 AM (officially 17:18 PM)
Photo #478 - April 1st 11:18:39 AM (Photo of a hill)
Photo #479 - April 1st 11:18:44 AM (officially 17:18 PM)
Photo #480 - April 1st 11:25:05 AM (Photo of a field)
Photo #481 - 11:25:11 AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #482 - 11:25:27 AM (Photo of a field)
Photo #483 - 11:25:31 AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #484 - 11:25:33 AM (Photo of a field)
Photo #485 - 11:25:35 AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #486 - 11:25:45 AM (officially 17:25:48 PM)
Photo #487 - 11:42:14 AM (Photo of a small creek)
Photo #488 - 11:42:18 AM (Photo of a small creek)
Photo #489 - 11:42:26 AM (officially 17:42 PM)
Photo #490 - 12:02:40 PM (Same location as 491)
Photo #491 - 12:03:08 PM (officially 18:03 PM)
Photo #492 - 12:03:16 PM (Same location as 491*)
Photo #493 - 12:42:25 PM (officially 18:42 PM)
Photo #494 - 12:42:32 PM (officially 18:42 PM)
*Distance thicket of the forest, with the small log over the
creek in the foreground - similar location to photo 491
*Distance thicket of the forest, with the small log over the
creek in the foreground - similar location to photo 491
---
The next photos are all taken with the Canon at the Pianista summit (the Mirador):
Photo #495 - 13:00:23 PM (Photo at Mirador)
Photo #496 - 13:00:36 PM (Photo at Mirador)
Photo #497 - 13:01:06 PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #498 - 13:01:14 PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #499 - 13:01:38 PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #500 - 13:01:44 PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #501 - 13:01:56 PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #502 - 13:02 PM (officially 19:02 PM)
Photo #503 - 13:06:15 PM (Photo at Mirador)
Photo #504 - 13:06:20 PM (officially 19:06 PM)
The next MOBILE PHONE photos are all taken at the Mirador
Photo IMG_2125 - 13:14 PM (iPhone4)
Photo IMG_2126 - 13:14 PM (iPhone4)
Photo IMG_2127 - 13:14 PM (iPhone4)
Photo IMG_2126 - 13:14 PM (iPhone4)
Photo IMG_2127 - 13:14 PM (iPhone4)
Photo 20140401_131420 - 13:14:20 PM (Samsung S3)
Photo 20140401_131424 - 13:14:24 PM (Samsung S3)
Photo 20140401_131430 - 13:14:30 PM (Samsung S3)
Photo 20140401_131456 - 13:14:56 PM (Samsung S3)
Photo IMG_2128 - 13:15 PM (iPhone4)
Photo 20140401_131513 - 13:15:13 PM (Samsung S3)
---
The next photos are taken with the Canon camera behind the Pianista summit:
Photo #505 - 13:20:33 PM (officially 19:20 PM)
Photo #506 - 13:20:39 PM (officially 19:20 PM)
Photo #507 - 13:54:50 PM (officially 19:54 PM)
Photo #508 - 13:54:58 PM (officially 19:54 PM)
Photo #509 (Unknown) - DELETED
Photo #476 (IMG_476)
11:18 AM (officially 17:18 PM)
Photo #477 (IMG_476)
11:18 and 34 seconds AM (officially 17:18 PM)
+
Photo #479 (IMG_476)
11:18 and 44 seconds AM (officially 17:18 PM)
Photo #481 (IMG_481)
11:25 and 11 seconds AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #483 (IMG_483)
11:25 and 31 seconds AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #485 (IMG_485)
11:25 and 35 seconds AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #486 (IMG_486)
11:25 and 45 seconds AM (officially 17:25 PM)
Photo #489 (IMG_489)
11:42 and 26 seconds AM (officially 17:42 PM)
Photo #491 (IMG_491)
12:03 and 8 seconds PM (officially 18:03 PM)
(Last photo by Alexander)
Photo #493 (IMG_493)
12:42 and 25 seconds PM (officially 18:42 PM)
Photo #494 (IMG_494)
12:42 and 32 seconds PM (officially 18:42 PM)
Power-Pixie found the matching location of photo #494 here.
Photo #496 (IMG_496)
13:00 and 36 seconds PM (officially 19:00 PM)
Photo #497 (IMG_497)
13:01 and 06 seconds PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #498 (IMG_498)
13:01 and 14 seconds PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #499 (IMG_499)
13:01 and 38 seconds PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #500 (IMG_500)
13:01 and 44 seconds PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #501 (IMG_501)
13:01 and 56 seconds PM (officially 19:01 PM)
Photo #502 (IMG_502)
13:02 PM (officially 19:02 PM)
Photo #504 (IMG_504)
13:06 and 20 seconds PM (officially 19:06 PM)
Photo #505 (IMG_505)
13:20 and 33 seconds PM (officially 19:20 PM)
This photo was taken after the summit and can be found here.
Photo #506 (IMG_506)
13:20 and 39 seconds PM (officially 19:20 PM)
Photo #507 (IMG_507)
13:54 and 50 seconds PM (officially 19:54 PM)
Photo #508 (IMG_508)
13:54 and 58 seconds PM (officially 19:54 PM),
'PanamaResearch' made this AI-type of image improvement of photo #508... I think it may be too artificial to be correct, but it definitely shows some apprehension and worry on her face for sure.
Photo #509 - DELETED
Update: photos taken with the mobile phones on the summit
On the summit of the Pianista trail, the Mirador, there were also nine known photos created with the iPhone from Kris and the Samsung Galaxy phone from Lisanne. Matt does not show them in his article, but he does describe them in little detail.
-IMG_2125; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14. This was around 6 minutes áfter the last digital photo was taken on the summit, photo 504, which showed the views down towards Boquete. So there were six minutes where we have no idea what happened, but then these eight images are taken in quick succession with the mobile phones. And going by the numbers of these images, there may even be more that we don't know about?
-IMG_2126; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14.
-IMG_2127; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14.
-20140401_131420; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:20.
-20140401_131424; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:24.
-20140401_131430; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:30. This image shows similar clouds and scenery as Image 502
-20140401_131456; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:56.
-IMG_2128; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:15:00.
-20140401_131513; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:15:13.
-IMG_2125; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14. This was around 6 minutes áfter the last digital photo was taken on the summit, photo 504, which showed the views down towards Boquete. So there were six minutes where we have no idea what happened, but then these eight images are taken in quick succession with the mobile phones. And going by the numbers of these images, there may even be more that we don't know about?
-IMG_2126; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14.
-IMG_2127; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:14.
-20140401_131420; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:20.
-20140401_131424; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:24.
-20140401_131430; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:30. This image shows similar clouds and scenery as Image 502
-20140401_131456; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:14:56.
-IMG_2128; taken with the iPhone4 on the Mirador at 13:15:00.
-20140401_131513; taken with the Samsung S3 on the Mirador at 13:15:13.
*******
Fourth, the photos taken in the
dark of night, on April 8th 2014
Specific photo numbers and times:
Photo #510 - April 8th 01:29:00 AM
Photo #511 - April 8th 01:30:00 AM
Photo #512-540 - 01:30-01:37 AM
Photo #511 - April 8th 01:30:00 AM
Photo #512-540 - 01:30-01:37 AM
Photo #541 - April 8th 01:37:57 AM
Photo #542 - April 8th 01:38:12 AM
Photo #543 - April 8th 01:38:28 AM
Photo #544 - April 8th 01:38:46 AM
Photo #545 - April 8th 01:38:57 AM
Photo #546 - April 8th 01:39:12 AM
Photo #547 - April 8th 01:39:21 AM
Photo #548 - April 8th 01:39:32 AM
Photo #549 - April 8th 01:39:42 AM
Photo #550 - April 8th 01:39:54 AM
Photo #551 - April 8th 01:40:07 AM
Photo #552 - April 8th 01:40:18 AM
Photo #553 - April 8th 01:40:32 AM
Photo #554 - April 8th 01:40:48 AM
Photo #555 - April 8th 01:40:59 AM
Photo #556 - April 8th 01:41:16 AM
Photo #559 - April 8th 01:41:26 AM
Photo #561 - April 8th 01:42:07 AM
Photo #562 - April 8th 01:42:25 AM
Photo #563 - April 8th 01:42:45 AM
Photo #564 - April 8th 01:43:14 AM
Photo #565 - April 8th 01:43:28 AM
Photo #566 - April 8th 01:43:45 AM
Photo #567 - April 8th 01:44:12 AM
Photo #568 - April 8th 01:44:37 AM
Photo #569 - April 8th 01:45:01 AM
Photo #570 - April 8th 01:45:14 AM
Photo #571 - April 8th 01:45:23 AM
Photo #572 - April 8th 01:45:32 AM
Photo #573 - April 8th 01:45:52 AM
Photo #574 - April 8th 01:46:01 AM
Photo #575 - April 8th 01:46:11 AM
Photo #576 - April 8th 01:46:20 AM
Photo #577 - April 8th 01:47:31 AM
Photo #577 - April 8th 01:47:31 AM
Photo #579 - April 8th 01:48:10 AM
Photo #580 - April 8th 01:49:47 AM
Photo #582 - April 8th 01:50:05 AM
Photo #583 - April 8th 01:50:26 AM
Photo #584 - April 8th 01:51:56 AM
Photo #585 - April 8th 01:52:28 AM
Photo #586 - April 8th 01:53:02 AM
Photo #587 - April 8th 01:53:13 AM
Photo #590 - April 8th 01:55:01 AM
Photo #591 - April 8th 01:55:36 AM
Photo #592 - April 8th 01:57:03 AM
Photo #593 - April 8th 01:58:26 AM
Photo #594 - April 8th 01:58:35 AM
Photo #595 - April 8th 02:00:37 AM
Photo #597 - April 8th 02:05:25 AM
Photo #599 - April 8th 02:12:11 AM
Photo #600 - April 8th 02:15:25 AM
Photo #601 - April 8th 02:20:48 AM
Photo #602 - April 8th 02:31:25 AM
Photo #603 - April 8th 02:31:25 AM
Photo #604 - April 8th 02:37:11 AM
Photo #605 - April 8th 02:46:16 AM
Photo #606 - April 8th 03:09:35 AM
Photo #607 - April 8th 03:09:51 AM
Photo #608 - April 8th 03:22:47 AM
Photo #609 - April 8th 04:10:59 AM
All new night photos printed here have been first published by JUAN. Later Matt confirmed their authenticity to me, based on the case files he has access to. These night photos have been taken mostly all at the same location. In this video I show how a very specific leaf keeps coming back and has been photographed from different positions and angles. The newly leaked night photos continue to show this leaf in different ways, just as the V-shaped tree keeps coming back. Details such as the exact timestamp have also been taken directly from these leaked photos. I later verified them all with the times mentioned in the official police files, as published by Matt. Also, there are a couple of new night photos that seem enhanced versions of others; not different photographs taken at the time. The parents of Kris and Lisanne stated that there were 90 photos taken that night, whereas Dutch newspaper de Telegraaf mentioned 77 photos. It is now confirmed that there were in fact 100 night photos taken in the early hours of April 8th (the 'night photos'), of which 50 are known to the public. The last known normal picture that was taken on April 1st was #508 (Kris at the small stream). The first nighttime photo is #510, which was taken on April 8th at 01:29 AM. Not all of the night photos have been made public. Hardinghaus and Nenner wrote about themt: "We know of additional, previously unpublished photos from the police files. In our opinion, however, these do not contain any new information about the disappearance of the girls - they are mostly variations on the perspective of already-known motifs or unsuccessful shots."
Quick succession
From photo #510 onward, photos were taken in quick succession initially. At times as many as seven pictures were taken within a one minute. Sometimes photos followed each other every 10 seconds, sometimes every minute. Most photos were taken in a cluster between 01:29 and 02:00 AM. Then the frequency of the photos went down a bit. The last known photo was taken at 04:10 AM. It seems that the person who took the photos was seated or laying down even in one very specific area. You see the same trees and foliage coming back in many different photos, and often the camera is aimed at the sky and the tree line. So all these photos are now proving us that the flash of the camera was not used to find their way while walking around. No evidence for this whatsoever; more evidence for the contrary in fact. The photographer was pretty static. Also, the 'figure resembling Kris laying down in a ravine' now proves to be just a leaf, lit up by the flash of the camera. The outline comes back in many photos, taken from different angles, and is clearly just a leaf, not a body. There are drops lighting up in the dark sky in many photos; either they are raindrops, or perhaps water mist from a nearby waterfall. If the drops are rain, then it is peculiar that the camera lens rarely ever seems to be wet. And it begs the question why the photographer spent nearly three hours out in the open air, in the rain, in the dark of night? And why all these photos were taken suddenly, after a week of no photos or videos? Also very strange; not a single photo indicates who exactly is taking these photos. Not a hand or foot of the photographer is visible; not one lock of their long hair fell in front of the camera lens in any of those 100 photos. No selfies, nothing. It could be anyone. After the last normal photo 508 on April 1st, these girls basically turned into ghosts. There is just no clear evidence that Kris and Lisanne took these photos. Only the back of the head photo of Kris seems to prove that the girls were present. But that image makes no real sense either, if Lisanne was supposedly taking these photos. It was not blurry and most likely not taken while on the move. It seems to prove that Kris was present in the night of April 8th. But then the question arises why, if Kris was alive by April 8th, there had been an absence of normal PIN code entries from April 5th onward already. Unfortunately this photo #580 does not show us if Kris is dead or alive. And neither can we see who is the photographer :( Although it looks like the photographer at the very least pretends to be Lisanne. As many people have openly wondered: why are these photos so utterly devoid of any human presence?
FIRST: these two new photos from the girls' camera also showed up recently, published by Juan. Someone numbered them as IMG_479 and IMG_480, but they in reality carry numbers #477 and #479. Then there is a swimming photo. However, that river is not situated near the Pianista Trail, but instead lies more south-east of the trail, in the Caldera hot springs. Could this be the evidence that - as stated by some witnesses who also claim to have seen them there on March 30th and/or March 31st - Kris and Lisanne had already visited the hot springs in the day(s) before their started their Pianista hike on April 1st 2014? Their busy schedule and diary entries seem to indicate that they did not go swimming there in the days before April 1st however..
*******
Photo #511 (IMG_511)
Probably taken around 01:30 AM
(officially 07:30 AM),
(officially 07:30 AM),
Photo #541 (IMG_541)
Probably taken around 01:37 AM
Photo #542 (IMG_542)
Probably taken around 01:38 AM
Photo adjusted with lightness settings etc:
Photo #543 + 544 (IMG_543)
Probably taken around 01:38,28 / 01:38,48 AM
Photo #545 (IMG_545)
Probably taken around 01:38,57 AM
Photo #546 and 547 (IMG_546)
Probably taken around 01:39,12 AM
Photo #548 (IMG_548)
Probably taken around 01:39,32 AM
Photo #549 (IMG_549)
Probably taken around 01:39,42 AM
Photo #550 (IMG_550)
Probably taken around 01:39 AM
Photo adjusted with lightness settings etc:
Photo #553 (IMG_0553)
Taken around 01:40:32 AM
Photos #554 and #555
Taken around 01:40,48/ 01:40,59 AM
Photos #556 and #559
Taken around 01:41 AM
Photos #561 and #562
Taken around 01:42.25 AM
Photos #565 and #567
Taken around 01:43.28 / 01:44,12 AM
Photos #569, #570 and #572
Taken around 01:45 AM
Photo #573
Taken around 01:45 AM
Photo #576
Taken around 01:45 / 01:46 AM
Photo from Alexander:
Some of the papers found on the flat rock may have come from both part of the map Lisanne was pictured with a few days earlier during lunch. See Alexander's find in the photo above. Another matching detail was discovered by Dutch forum member 'Geruisloos'/ 'NostraSilencio' below:
Photo #576
Taken around 01:46 AM
#576 has the brightness turned up here:
It seems that the photo #576 has been altered in photoshop here (by whomever leaked these photos I reckon, or even by investigators possibly) to make the details of the rock in the background stand out more. Hence why the foreground seems so over-lit suddenly. Here you can compare the two photos. When you look at the specific specks of lit up water drops in the sky, you can see that these two photos are exactly the same. Even a second later and the background drops would have looked different. So they are the same photo, one had its brightness adjusted to show the details in the background.
Photo #580 (IMG_0580)
Taken around 01:49,47 AM
See the full photo HERE
So we finally have the full photo of the hair of Kris. The uncensored one, I should say. No clear head wound is visible. Aside from some vague markings under the hair, possibly. What does stand out, is how clean and dry the hair is looking. It makes you wonder how someone's hair can look so clean, 8 days into a disappearance in what is assumed the jungle of Boquete. Sleeping without protection from the elements, without a cap to put your hair under, without even a pillow to sleep on. Or does it only look clean due to the flash of the camera perhaps? BTW: the time on the 'old' Polaroid version of this photo which was used in Dutch TV program Een Vandaag is 03:54 AM. But ever since the night photos were all leaked, the real times became known and it was actually taken at 01:49,47 AM. Matt, who has access to the official photos, confirmed that this is the correct time. I have no idea why the TV makers made these time errors. I will add the photo copy of it which has this timestamp (don't forget to extract 6 hours from it):
Photos #582 and #583
Taken around 01:50,05 / 01:50,26 AM
Photos #584 - #587
Taken around 01:51,56 / 01:53,13 AM
Photos #590 - #593
Taken around 01:55,01 / 01:58,26 AM
Photo #594 (IMG_594)
Taken around 01:58 AM
Photo adjusted with lightness settings etc:
Photos #595 and #597
Taken around 02:00 / 02:05 AM
Photo #599 (IMG_594)
Taken around 02:12 AM
Photo #600
Taken around 02:15 AM
Photos #602
Taken around 02:29 AM
Photos #603 and #604
Taken around 02:31,25 / 02:37,11 AM
Photo #605 (IMG_605)
Taken around 02:46,16 AM
Photo #607
Taken around 03:09 AM
Photos #608 and #609 (IMG_608/609)
Taken around 03:22,47 / 04:10 AM
Photos #609 is the last photo that was
taken with the Canon camera, at 04:10
See all of this in video form here:
All the photos taken by Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon during their Panama stay. Chronologic from Scarlet R on Vimeo.
David pointed out to me that: "If the collection seen in Juan's album is accurate to the source retrieved from the original disc you meet huge problems in their credibility as several are indeed direct duplicates, and at least two of them are inexplicable: this one and this one. Look closer at the two, look at the raindrops frozen in time there, and you see that these are very clearly the same picture! The exact same photograph, but one has had the display completely smothered by a bizarre whiteout effect while the other is clear. How can this happen inside a digital camera? I have no idea. Surely it can't. And yet there is also a similar picture in the album showing the boulder/Marker display that has had a similar treatment... the exact same photograph but with one having extreme light strobing that obliterates the main object in the image. Are these leftover works from others who handled the images in the weeks and years since the Police received them, or original shots within the camera's memory card? We will likely never know. But as two examples of strange and inexplicable shots that are in fact duplicates of clearer images, you do wonder if deliberate manipulation was undertaken at an early stage and the 'originals' accidentally left saved to disc. And if that were to be the case then virtually all of the pictures have to be treated as suspect..."
I replied: "Yes those photos were of the same SOS marker, the same photos. With exactly the same water drops. They can't have been taken in quick succession of one another therefore, because even a second of added time would have changed the position of those lit up drops. Looks like someone brightened some of the night photos and left the adjusted photo in as well."
If you are new here, please start reading the main story of the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne in my first blog post, here
Juan posted a remarkable photo in it (photo #541 taken at 01:37 that night)All credits to Toni also for creating this overlap photo. One of the nighttime photos which were published by Juan, shows this odd picture. Around this point in his youtube video, Juan shows an overlap photo, very craftily found and made, which makes a convincing case for the assumption that the nighttime photo is an overly lit up close up of the face of Lisanne.. There are quite a few photos in Juans file, taken in the night of April 8th by supposedly Kris and Lisanne themselves - I have doubts about that personally - which show a strange round lit up 'something'. You can see them all here (press the arrow on the right of the photo to go through them all). In some photos it seems that perhaps a finger was held before the lens and flash, but in other photos there seems to be light almost in the right top corner. Sometimes it may be a chin perhaps, being overly lit by the flash. OR....... could this be the lit up (by the flash) bent middle finger in front of the lens? In that case, this photo was taken by a man. Hardly any women have hairs on their fingers/hands. Anyway, you can check them out for yourselves. There is a very lively discussion also in that google album of Juan, really interesting to read up on.
And Mike made this photo overlap
(although Lisanne would have had to grin then.. No..)
Although others think that photo 541 shows a jawline and the cheek, like here:
But it could also very very likely be just a finger in front of the camera lens. If so, this person seems to have had some hairs on his finger... I'd say it is more likely a male than a young female, in that case.
**********************************
Shoes of both girls
******
The diaries
The diary entries from first Lisanne and then Kris, show you solely what they wrote about their time in Bocas del Toro and then Boquete. They were photographed in the girls' bedroom and later leaked by a Boquete source. Juan and I both each translated one set of diary entries from Dutch into English for you. We're both aware of the fact that these diaries were private and not written by the girls with the intend to be published online. But in the light of this drama, we just feel that they are important pieces of information. Both covering facts of their day to day activities (important facts in fact, considering how much innuendo and misinformation is floating around this case), as well as first-hand information about their state of mind in the days leading up to their disappearance. Juan decided to make them public, because these diaries were traded behind the scenes for the highest bidder, and he did not believe such diaries should have been used for money; by publishing them for all to see, he tried to prevent this, considering they had already been leaked by someone else. And Jeremy Kryt already had insight in them also in 2017 and quoted from them. As for my decision to put them up here later on; I have tried to give Kris and Lisanne a voice throughout these blog posts, which I wrote and researched in my free time (and without monetizing my work). But ultimately I did not personally know Kris or Lisanne. And here we have their own voices, their own writings. Sad as it is to read this after their deaths, it is the most direct information into who they were at the time and what they did and felt like in Panama. Offering a small reality check for those of us who may be overly eager to fill in our own images of who they were and what their interactions were like. Had this been a collection of highly intimate revelations for instance, I wouldn't have published them. But the diaries contain interesting first-hand accounts of their everyday experiences and their state of mind at the time. Especially Lisanne seemed to not feel good psychologically after arriving in Boquete. It also shows that they were cautious, but at the same time young and fun-loving. These diaries give us a factual account of how they spent their time in Bocas, which may be the best indicator of what they may have looked for again in Boquete, after their volunteer work plans fell apart.
I also feel that we should not underestimate just how bad Lisanne was feeling initially in Boquete. Her panic and anxiety are palpable through the pages and have to be taken into account when it comes to trying to unravel this mystery of what ultimately happened to them. Most of all, these diary entries provide you with Kris and Lisanne's own voices, in an ocean of other people screaming about them. Or as Dave Mullen wrote me about this: "As for the diaries, I always see them as Kris and Lisanne’s inadvertent/accidental cry for help. It’s somewhat of a gold standard for me as I cannot imagine the case without their own words, even if they were careless or not as forthcoming on every detail. Without their own words we’re left with chasing two ghosts."
I also feel that we should not underestimate just how bad Lisanne was feeling initially in Boquete. Her panic and anxiety are palpable through the pages and have to be taken into account when it comes to trying to unravel this mystery of what ultimately happened to them. Most of all, these diary entries provide you with Kris and Lisanne's own voices, in an ocean of other people screaming about them. Or as Dave Mullen wrote me about this: "As for the diaries, I always see them as Kris and Lisanne’s inadvertent/accidental cry for help. It’s somewhat of a gold standard for me as I cannot imagine the case without their own words, even if they were careless or not as forthcoming on every detail. Without their own words we’re left with chasing two ghosts."
LisanneMarch 15th, 16th and 17th 2014
"Waaaaah it takes so long! What a trip. Luckily I almost forgot about it already upon arrival in the beautiful and cozy Bocas del Toro. I would not want to be found dead in San Jose, although the chance of this is quite high in San Jose. But I could live in Bocas for the rest of my life. Maybe when I ever retire? I am sitting in the sun, which I can't hold out much longer by the way (hot!) and I take a good look around me at my new accommodation for the next two weeks. The heat is already very special by the way, even in the shade I have the feeling that I can still burn alive. But despite this, the sun is actually quite nice. How intensely happy it can make a person. Kittens, stray cats, yes, they are regular customers here. They walk everywhere! Just like mini salamanders, even in the shower! If they manage to keep the spiders away, they could actually become my best friends."
March 18th 2014 "Red Frog Beach, one word A - MA - ZING!! We have also seen a dolphin, the ultimate enjoyment. Drinking from a coconut, a real one yes! And getting sunburnt, I worked well on my tan, what more do you want?!"
March 19th 2014 "Spanish Class, it's pretty complicated. Yet I do notice that I learn to recognize more and more when I listen to conversations, which is a fantastic feeling. The rest of the day we enjoyed relaxing around the hostel. Three lovely afternoon naps in the hammock, a game of cards, some food and snacks. In the afternoon (medio tarde!) we drank nice cocktails at Casa Verde. Lovely time alone with Kris, we had nice conversations and afterwards we were, of course, a little tipsy. Long live the holiday. La puda vida [sic. The good life!] In the evening we had cooking class, tortillas and gazpacho were on the menu. Fortunately we live completely according to the Caribbean style, so I will have to withdraw from the Dutch [way of] life. 7 o'clock cooking class means that at half past seven the ingredients really still have to be bought, haha. And that also means that there is food on the table at 10 o'clock. A very educational evening for my patience and concentration. I believe I failed! But the food was very good. After dinner quickly with our backsides under the shower because Wednesday evening is Aqua Lounge Day! A discotheque a la Caribbean Style. Large outdoor area with swimming pools and ocean views. Amazing! Enjoyed dancing and drinking with the boys. Yes, Bas and Edwin. Our Dutch hostel friends and not to forget Mart! Later Ethan, our Australian negro, joined. Around 3 o'clock we were kindly requested to go find our beds, but a tropical downpour made us delay this about 3 times. Eventually we finally went. Nothing was dry anymore!! But it was a special experience to dance in the rain when it is 30 degrees outside. By the way, you have to use the water taxi here to go to places, really cool. For $1 you can go to the other side, a small beach and Aqua Lounge. You can visit other islands for $5. Two down, so many more to go! Hasta manzana! (see you tomorrow!) Haha apple!"
March 20th 2014
"I have such thick feet, it must be from the heat that my ankles look like rhino legs. We had FAN - TAS - TIC food with the boys in a little Caribbean restaurant. I have never before eaten such tasty pasta with tomatoes. Then followed a little Snickers cake and a 2 liter can of sangria. Yes, this was again the ultimate enjoyment. Now fingers crossed for nice weather tomorrow, because today was three times nothing. Hasta mañana! Today's slogan: it was AMAZING hihi."
March 21st 2014
"This morning I had Spanish lesson, the last one for Ethan, Davis and Bas. It started raining at 8 AM and it only started to dry up again around 1 PM. Because the weather was so bad we couldn't really make plans. We have brought a deck of cards and have dived into Casa Verde! Initially together with Mart and later Edwin and Bas joined. It cleared up and the afternoon flew by with a number of beers and games. Wonderful! At 6 o'clock we had a BBQ with the whole group on the small island! We played volleyball and I got completely punctured by mosquitoes. Fortunately there was enough beer and fun! Later that evening we went out to La Iguana. A few dances and beers later it was suddenly 4 o'clock. Time to go to bed. Tomorrow the Deep Sea tour is on the program!"
"This morning I had Spanish lesson, the last one for Ethan, Davis and Bas. It started raining at 8 AM and it only started to dry up again around 1 PM. Because the weather was so bad we couldn't really make plans. We have brought a deck of cards and have dived into Casa Verde! Initially together with Mart and later Edwin and Bas joined. It cleared up and the afternoon flew by with a number of beers and games. Wonderful! At 6 o'clock we had a BBQ with the whole group on the small island! We played volleyball and I got completely punctured by mosquitoes. Fortunately there was enough beer and fun! Later that evening we went out to La Iguana. A few dances and beers later it was suddenly 4 o'clock. Time to go to bed. Tomorrow the Deep Sea tour is on the program!"
March 22nd 2014
"Buenas dias! No Spanish class today! Secretly that is kind of nice though, lovely weekend! Getting up with a clear blue sky and sun is really as it should be, lovely lovely! At 09:30 on our way to Zapatilla. Crossing over the water with the boat to spot dolphins and sloths. Well we were successful! So cool! Then sailed through the mangrove. That really made me realize that we are in Central America, far away from the Netherlands. After the mangrove with 300 km/h over the open ocean water to Zapatilla. I could not believe my eyes, it was one big paradise. Exactly like in your dreams, Bounty Bounty Bounty Island. Deep sea boarding, diving with a board into the water like a mermaid, and coming back up again, and all that while you are hanging behind a boat. What a cool experience. After that we had some 'free time' (yes, English, Spanish, Dutch, it is very confusing sometimes all those languages). Made a wonderful walk on the dreamy Bounty Island (after a deliciously prepared lunch). I also snorkeled a bit and swam a little. Seen so many beautiful fish! Now chilling out in a hammock and will have a bite to eat soon! Today was really incredible!!!"
"Sunday morning, no warm buns at the Mathildehof but a watermelon smoothie and an omelet in La Buquita on Bocas del Toro. That's a different story! Learned a bit of Spanish and had an afternoon nap. In the evening we had a bite to eat together and were in bed on time, a real Sunday! 2 hours at the beach!"
March 24th 2014
"Monday morning, at 7 o'clock the alarm goes off, are we in the Netherlands? Noooo! We join Carlos's Spanish lesson. Nice guy, good teacher! Kris is still not feeling well, but we decide to go to Starfish Beach anyway. So cool! So many starfish in mega clear water. Another bit of paradise! Delicious dinner in our favorite restaurant on Bocas in the evening, two courses and a small jug of sangria! Holidays!"
March 25th 2014"Kris feels very unwell and decides to stay in bed all day. I have to make a switch myself, but I decide not to let my day be ruined because of this. Off to Spanish class! It went pretty well! After the lesson I chilled and brought the laundry away. It is not really wise to take to the streets on your own, but I did it anyway! Bought some postcards and went into some shops. Some Lisanne time! In the afternoon I picked up some smoothies for us and in the evening I chilled with the boys in Casa Verde. Nice!!"
"I'm sitting here, with tears in my eyes and rolling down my cheeks. The view of the mountains is beautiful, the house is spacious and the family is friendly. I'm even here with Kris, who is so very familiar. But still I want to go home. I had no problems for two weeks and suddenly I went completely crazy. The transition from two weeks of lively holiday to stepping into the life of a real Panamanian family is just too much for me. I cannot make myself understood and this is real life, not a vacation anymore. I was way too naive also to think that I could handle this. Because this is exactly the type of situation that I just can't handle. Not even now that I'm 22 and am living on my own. I'm in way over my head. I want mom and dad to hold me tight and tell me that everything will be alright. But I can't let them know how I feel now, because I don't want them to worry. It is precisely because I am 22 that I think I have to solve this myself. Still, I now feel like a small child of 2 yelling for her mother who is 2 metres away. I didn't really want this, but I went anyway. Because I thought I should be able to do this, the final test before I can be really happy with myself. So far I have failed badly. Shit."
March 26th, 27th and 28th, 2014
"I just saw that I had skipped a few days, but I will of course quickly tell you what happened in those three days. On Wednesday the 26th we have lessons in the afternoon. Quite a shame for such a beautiful day, but we are in Bocas for the Spanish lessons after all. Around 5 o'clock we close off and we go into town for a bit, to check out nice shops and stalls. We walked past the Wine Bar and decided to eat there. Shared 3 small appetizers and a glass of wine. Wednesday evening means only one thing: Aqua Lounge! Put on nice clothes and let's move it! We lose Bas out of sight fairly quickly already and so we celebrate the evening with the three of us. That evening I also meet the chef of our favorite restaurant, brilliant! Around half past three we are thrown out and it's time to go to bed. 4 o'clock in bed, and at 7 o'clock the alarm goes off for Spanish class oops oops oops ... the alarm clock rings ... I was just asleep! Groggy we drag ourselves out of bed. Today is the second last lesson. In the afternoon we decide to enjoy our vacation for a little longer. Off to Red Frog Beach! Yes!! Again beautiful and not crowded at all. The afternoon flies by. In the evening we join the boys. The restaurant with the fireworks show. Ate a delicious fish! Of course we play some more games of cards in Casa Verde. No matter how tired and broken we are, it is our second last night here so there shall be dancing in La Iguana. Again half past three, oops! Friday morning, 7 AM, the alarm clock rings. BROKEN! But today is our last day in Bocas, so we'll just have to work hard. Spanish lessons are fun! Learned animals, translated a song and learned games which we can play with the children in the children's school. Saying goodbye to Carlos. What a cool guy he is. In the afternoon also Skype with mom and dad and afterwards we spent a lovely time at the small beach. Stunningly beautiful for a "small" beach. Oh yeah! The power went out last night. All of Bocas was without! Very special to see how everyone conjures up their candles and emergency lights. Fortunately it was already fixed at 8 o'clock! Continued with the last evening. Of course three course dinner in our favorite restaurant, with the boys! Then we had a drink and played some cards. It was a perfect ending to our two weeks in Bocas. Saturday morning around 10 o'clock we are ready to leave for our new destination: Boquete! I am fairly ready for it, but it is also a shame to leave Bocas. We have booked a shuttle service to get to Boquete. Everything went well and 4 hours later we stood in the school in Boquete. And 45 minutes later we were sitting on the couch with our host family. Wow!!"
March 30th 2014
"Okay, the tears are gone but it is still strange. I still feel like a tiny intruder in this family. Delicious French toast for breakfast! Explored Boquete in the afternoon which was nice. What a world of difference with Bocas! Here its windy and everywhere around you there are mountains. Magnificent! You can go almost anywhere here for 60 dollar cents. In the afternoon we also went to the school to check out some excursions, that's going to be fine. We mainly eat rice here by the way! Tomorrow our first day in Aura! Exciting!"
March 31st 2014
"Yuck! Yuck! Yuck! Our first day was a disaster. As we arrive at Aura on time, we are not even recognized or given a friendly welcome. The only thing we hear is "no proxima semana" = we are only welcome next week. WHAT?! We returned to the [Spanish] school disappointed and indeed, the daycare only has work for us next week. But of course we don't buy anything for that*. Maybe we will be able to start tomorrow at Casa Esperanza. Fingers crossed! To alleviate our disappointment a bit we went to Sigrid for a full body massage. Some enjoyment! Another day tomorrow, hasta la mañana!"
*[Scarlet: a Dutch saying. It comes down to this 'being of no use']
*[Scarlet: a Dutch saying. It comes down to this 'being of no use']
April 1st 2014
[Empty]
KrisMarch 16th, 2014
"The time has finally come. We are in Costa Rica. What a trip it was! 12/10 hours flying to Houston, waiting 4 hours there and then another 4 hours to San José, Costa Rica. We arrived here at the hostel around 10 o'clock, which actually felt like 4 o'clock in the morning for us due to the time difference. How tired we were, because we had already got up at 4 AM to arrive at Schiphol airport on time, so we had been awake for 24 hours! We were picked up by a friendly little mister, together with his wife. The same man will soon pick us up again to take us to the bus. It is now around 7 o'clock in the morning. The sun was already rising around 4,5 o' clock. I am writing this now in the garden of the hostel. Very cute little courtyard with many plants and a kind of fountain/altar made of mosaic. I can't wait to travel to Panama soon. I think the bus trip will be very beautiful, hopefully we will see some nice things of the country. So exciting, the journey has really begun!"
March 16, Monday (probably an error; should be March 17th)
(Drawing of a sun). "It is so hot here! I really have to get used to it. It's like 30 degrees here, sitting in the sun is way too hot. I am currently in the hostel. We arrived yesterday around half past six. The bus trip was an adventure in itself. The bus journey itself went well. But first we had to speed through San José by taxi because we had no cash on us. When we got out in Sixaola, we and two locals were the only ones left. We had to just figure out for ourselves how to get to the border. The bus driver only spoke Spanish. We were sent one way and with our backpacks we really stood out among the locals. We arrived at the border, which consisted of an old bridge. It was very bizarre to cross the border that way. Once on the other side we arrived at a building where we had to pay money for a sticker on a passport (I think we were scammed). When we stood at that real immigration [checkpoint] a man approached us and asked if we had to go to Bocas. We were a bit suspicious because we didn't know very well if we could trust him. All the people were in a great hurry because they thought we would not be able to catch the last boat. For this reason we decided to just jump in the car and hope for a happy ending. And it came. After a hellish ride where the driver was driving so fast that I didn't even dare to look, we arrived at a small stepping stone for the boat to Bocas. After about half an hour we finally arrived. After two days of traveling it felt incredibly surreal to be at the destination finally. Yesterday we also had a bite to eat but I was so tired that it didn't really get through to me. But now that I am writing this I am sitting at the bar of the Spanish school with some nice Spanish music in the background and I am starting to realize that we are really here and that we can happily enjoy this holiday. Our first Spanish lesson will start in 15 minutes. I am very curious. It is wonderful here". (drawing of 3 suns and a sailboat). - Picture below of the border bridge, found by Power-Pixie.
March 20th, 2014(drawing of cloud with rain). "We are in Panama and it is raining. And not just a little bit, it is pouring down. We already came home last night due to the pouring rain. We then went to Aqua Lounge for the first time, a somewhat larger club just across the street. Fortunately we have lessons today in the afternoon. Let's hope that the sun will come through a bit again. The day before yesterday we went to Red Frog Beach. It was really beautiful. We were dropped off at a jetty and had to walk a bit ourselves and that was beautiful. The jetty continued over the mangrove and turned into a path in the forest with giant plants and beautiful flowers. The beach itself was also beautiful, very clear water and few people. Davis was with us and he is really a sort of survivor. There we were, drinking from a coconut on the beach, delicious. Today we are planning to do a tour on Saturday, looking forward to it!"
March 25th, 2014
"It is Tuesday around 10 o'clock in the morning and I should actually take classes but I am sick. After having had a nervous stomach - gippy tummy – for 3 days, it finally all came out today. This morning at once I had terrible diarrhea which now persists. Which sucks because now I dare not to go anywhere, and so I spend the whole day in my little room. Super lame but now I do have the time to write down everything from the last days. Friday we went to a school BBQ. Was good fun and then we went to the iguana again and had a super evening with Bas, Edwin, Davis and Chad. Saturday we did a super nice excursion. We went in a small boat and first we went dolphin spotting. We then saw one that we followed for a while but then more and more boats were coming so he was gone again. Then we sailed to the edge of the mangrove and there we saw sloths in the trees. We saw at least three and one of them climbed all the way in a tree and at the end he then hung like a hammock. That was very cool, I am really happy that I could see those animals so clearly. Then we had to sail for another half an hour and it looked like we were going to an island in the middle of the ocean. When we arrived there we went deep boarding. This means that you hold a kind of clear plastic board and you let it pull you through the water by a boat. You wear goggles and with this you can view everything that is under water. We saw beautiful coral, also those plants with long thick strings and many different fish. I thought I'd be pretty scared because I don't really like fish but it was really nice to see everything. The water is also so clear here. Then we had a nice lunch, pasta and we had time left. Then we went for a walk across the island and arrived at the other side of it, and it was super beautiful. Truly a fairytale island. Then we walked back along the coast. Super. The island was called Zapatilla. On the way back we made a quick stop at a spot with shallow water to watch all the starfish. The trip was really super. Yesterday, Monday we went to Starfish Beach. In a super hot and super crowded van we drove to the other side of our island. On the way there people were dropped off at places of which I thought, where would those people live? More or less in the jungle. Then we were brought to the end location with a small boat and at first we didn't see any starfish and we thought, well that's just great.. But when we went into the water we suddenly saw a lot of them and with the snorkel that we had rented we could see even more, and also some nice fish. So those are the adventures we had. It feels like we've been here for centuries already, but it's only 1.5 weeks. We still have so much to go. Hasta luego."
March 30th, 2014
"Wow. How much has changed since the last time I wrote something. We are now staying at the host family. The last days on Bocas we mainly enjoyed the beach, good food and going out. We had quite a bit of sleep to catch up on. The time we had in Bocas was really amazing and we really had a holiday there. So it really felt like goodbye, because we probably won't be coming back there. I have never seen a place with such a beautiful coastline and palm trees and such. Really super. Yesterday we arrived in Boquete. The journey actually went very well. The small bus even had air conditioning. We also found the school in no time. We had to get out earlier than the other people on the bus, so that was a bit strange because we got off almost in the middle of nowhere. The school called the family where we would stay. It was really nerve-racking to wait for that because you really hope there is a click. Fortunately it went well. Last night we really had to get used to the new situation. You suddenly stay with a family that you are not (yet) part of. You know nothing about their habits and you actually don't know how to behave. On top of that you can hardly speak a word with them, so you also cannot express how you feel. We were also really exhausted yesterday, but after a good night sleep all is not so bad anymore. So once we have stayed here for a while I am sure that it will be all right. The family is very sweet. The mother's name is Miriam. The eldest daughter is called Yaileth. Miriam also has 2 other children, Astrid and Amileas. Yaileth also has 2 children, Josué, Soannye. The youngest is 1 and the other almost 3. They are all very friendly and used to visitors who cannot speak Spanish. The eldest daughter does speak English. But for our Spanish it is better to speak as little English as possible. We also went to Boquete today. Very nice and cute village. Tomorrow we will start at Aura. Very curious how that will go." 
"Today was a strange day. We were going to the project for the first time. We were quite nervous and found it nerve-racking. When we arrived we introduced ourselves, expecting the woman to know who we were because she was expecting us, after all. But that was not the case. She showed no sign of recognition and said that it was not possible now [to start volunteer work there] and that we should come back next week. Very unfriendly and not at all warm or cordial. So when we left we were very disappointed. We were not received openly and did not feel welcome at all, unexpectedly to us. We also did not understand what was exactly going on. Then we went back to the language school to tell our story and to get some answers. It turned out that there was no place/work for us at the project after all this week, so we couldn't start yet. The school also found it very strange because we had planned it months in advance. Then we had to wait all day for Marjolein to hear if we could perhaps be part of another project for this week. Eventually we heard that she had not been able to speak to the volunteer coordinator yet, so she wasn't sure, but she did think we would be able to start there. She also said that it was a nice project and after reading about it we also became enthusiastic. Tomorrow they will try to get a hold of that woman and suppose that we really like it there, then we can also just stay there*. Because we both don't really want to go back to Aura anymore, because we didn't feel welcome at all there, and it was really a huge disappointment. Let's hope that the other project is really fun. Well, lets go with the Panamanian flow then."
[*This formulation will read slightly wonky, but so does the Dutch formulation. In Dutch it states literally: 'and suppose that we really like it there, we can nicely stay there.' It is not perfect Dutch either. It is the sort of Dutch you can speak among one another, but does not make for grammatically correct writing. But what it would mean in Dutch is that they may just as well continue to work there if they really like it at Casa Esperanza (and thus never return to Aura, neither a week later).]
The photographer of the diaries
Perhaps Heyer had as little trust in the Panamanian police as Lee Zeltzer had, and that is why he safeguarded the copies of the diaries. Mark Heyer is an American expat and the photographer who went into the girls' bedroom on April 8th and documented their diary entries with his camera. He did so reportedly on behalf of a person directly involved in this case, but the case files stay totally mum about Mark: either he did his thing illegally, or investigators do not want to mention him for a specific reason. Mark Heyer was part of the local Alto al Crimen team together with Lee Zeltzer and Erik Westra, set up to offer extra protection for foreigners in Boquete. All three suspect from the outset that Kris and Lisanne met foul play. That is also why Lee Zeltzer went out to interview the inhabitants of the Pianista trail early on, before Sinaproc or local police came round to do so a week later. It is suggested that Mark Heyer was also the person who obtained the swimming photo and leaked it.
By the way, This photo of Kris' passport was taken on the same afternoon of April 8th when local Boquete man Mark Heyer took the photos of the girls' diaries in their bedroom. For documentation value. Only this passport photo bore the name of a local Panamanian journalist in its exif data, Mr. Rosario. He was also in their bedroom that day, together with Heyer, taking photos of the scene. One can wonder why a journalist and a local photographer were allowed to roam through this bedroom by April 8th, taking photos of a possible (?) crime scene, on the same day when the forensic investigators inspected this room. Lisanne's diary entries
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Kris' diary entries
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Photos showing just how dry it was in the period of early April 2014
Despite claims of the girls having 'drowned in wild flowing rivers', this photo comparison shows just how dry it was in Boquete when Kris and Lisanne arrived there (and throughout their first week in Boquete it stayed dry, the rain season did not start yet). Right a photo of Lisanne posing next to a dry and run over river bed. Below there is on the left a photo I found here and taken in 2019, and on the right a photo taken on approximately March 30th when Kris and Lisanne explored the town. The entire river bed is dry. Plants grow in the gully where the river normally flows. This matches reports about the exceptional dry spell the town was in back then. You also see it on their photos of the Pianista trail; dry trails, no mud. And as we can now see also no 'wildly flowing rivers', as the tour guides like us to believe, as well as prosecutor Betzaida Pitti. As you can see in the shapes of the mountains in the background and other background elements, these photos were taken at almost the exact same location. But during very different climatological circumstances; one during normal conditions, the other during an exceptionally dry spell. And a Boquete local wrote this on a forum at the time (on July 2nd of 2014): "We must bare in mind that two months ago, there was a severe (fuerte) drought in the area, that affected the water levels in the whole cordillera of Talamanca."
Although this photo from a news item on TV shows that water streams usually on the left side of the green wild plan growth. Nevertheless: in the photos taken by Kris and Lisanne, there really is no water visible at all, not even a small stream on the left.
The Mirador photos revisited
Power-Pixie wrote me some more interesting things about the Mirador photos and the clouded sky in some of the photos. While looking back into it all, I realized that I have been wrong so far about my perception of where these different Mirador photos were taken exactly! Somehow I have assumed that the blue sky photos were taken on one side of the summit, while the cloud covered ones were taken on the other side. But this is not true, I only now realise. Very silly, as the Lost in the Wild crew has made it clear already what that summit looks like.
So I used to think that the ongoing trail was facing the north-east and that the blue sky views were on its left, so facing West. While the clouded photos were aimed at the East. While in fact, all the photos were taken on the East-side of the summit, facing the (South-)East. Just as Hans Kremers already showed the meticulous viewer in the Answers for Kris video.
Starting point for all this was that Power-Pixie brought a video of a group of Canadian travelers back to my attention. I had seen it before, but not been paying enough attention. Because these hikers actually showed the East-side view in one ongoing camera motion. I put it in a gif video for you:
The interesting part here is that I already felt that the clouded sky on one side (and in two photos) contrasted a lot with the blue sky on the 'other side' (and in most of the other summit photos). But now we have the fact captured on video that these Mirador photos were all taken on the same stretch of mountain, all facing the East/South-East. Here we can see the similar shapes of mountains in the background of 'our' photos, further proving this.
I still think that the contrast is extreme between both skies. Perhaps even more so, now that they aren't approaching one another on different sides of the mountain, but on the same side. Could this be a clue that those two overcast selfies on the summit were indeed taken on the way back, potentially? And that someone has been tossing the order and chronology of these photos, re-arranging some of them to make it look like all those photos were taken at the same time, after climbing up the Boquete side of the mountain? This is a big stretch of course and may not really be the case. Beides, there áre also some fluffs of white cloud drifting by in some of the sunny photos. Nothing like the coverage in the cloud photos, but with a bit of imagination, you can combine these photos and make a reasonable suggestion that it was just one of those cloud decks, which very suddenly cut off and went over in cloudless skies..
Power-Pixie posed an interesting question however: "It does look like significant cloud cover (in photos 500 & 501). Do you think that Kris and Lisanne, as they descended down towards the location of photo 508, would have been under all this cloud cover?" - It is a good question and it was the reason why I looked into this sub-topic again. A question also, which I have not really seen posed before, as such. These clouds must be coming from the North or North-East, but they seem to stretch out all over the East. According to this weather site, on April 1st the wind came from the South at midday (noon). By 6 PM the wind turned to the north, northeast. However at noon, when these photos were taken, the wind would have blown that cloud cover straight up north. But since the trail continues in a North-Eastern direction initially, you would indeed expect that in the photos beyond the summit, Kris and Lisanne would have faced some clouds. And also: since the wind blew from the south, they would have logically speaking already encountered cloud overcast before they reached the summit. However, we have no evidence of this. Because none of their pre-summit photos show cloudy skies. They all show sunlight shining down. Photo #505 for instance, shows Kris goofing around with the sun shining on her through the foliage. It was taken about five minutes after the girls had left the Mirador behind them. And their other after-summit photos don't show any evidence of clouds either. Peculiar. But then again, we do not know what was pictured on the five photos taken on the summit by mobile phone. And how the sky looks in those photos. Still, there is so much cloud cover pictured in some photos, that I find it odd that there is no hint of it in the pre- and post-summit photos. And we know that it was not uncommon for that Pianista area to have dense clouds in juxtaposition with blue skies. But Power Pixie's wondering why in no trail photos the girls seem to have encountered clouds overhanging, does interest me. At some point before or after the summit, they should have been covered by that massive cloud deck if the photos are shown in chronological order. And yet, we have no photos with an absense of sunshine. My guess would be that either the wind was blowing the cloud deck North at a steady pace and the girls were just on the sunny side of things. Or those cloud photos were taken on their way back, and then we have to come to the conclusion that those photos or their numbering have been manipulated and shuffled. Perhaps on June 17th, when Pittí altered the memory card by photoshopping some of the original photos. The very different colour of the sky may then have been the very reason for them to take some more photos. To document the difference between having had clear views and blue skies at the ascent, versus sudden thick grey clouds all around them on the 'way back' (of which there is no hard evidence by the way). I am not convinced that they returned, I just keep the option open based on these photos. As Dave Mullen wrote: "Too many people are fixated on the other side of the mountain, but after the full phone logs were released we learned that what we had always been led to believe on the loss of signal, and where, was all wrong. But people won't let go of that 'official' idea that the two friends got themselves lost on the other side as they weren't paying attention. I feel whatever went on that afternoon is more complicated than that simple thinking though." - See a string of photos with these different background skies below, accompanied by the exact camera times. And also notice how there are sometimes only seconds between photos, taken at different spots on the summit with different backgrounds and even different hairstyles at times. The two photos that stand out from the rest, with the full clouded background skies, are also the only two photos where Kris and Lisanne suddenly stick their thumbs up.
Notice also how in some photos it is Kris who wears the (light) backpack, while in others it is Lisanne. Did they simply switch carrying the bag on the way back, perhaps? People have also brought up the different hairstyles of the girls. This photo timeline shows that Lisanne had her hair still tied on the summit at 13:00:36, just like during the hike itself. But that she had thrown her hair loose by 13:01:38. One possible explanation is that these are two sets of photos combined, taken at different times. Lisanne wearing her hair tied back when they reached the Mirador for the first time, and loose when they returned there after taking photo 508 at the stream. Another possible explanation is that Lisanne untied her hair on the summit, just for the photos... To create more varied photos, where she sported different hairstyles. Perhaps the loose hair made her feel more glamorous. The same can be seen with Kris, who wore her hair tied back in most hike photos that day, but loose on the summit photos. Only in Lisanne's case, there are sometimes mere seconds between these photos. For instance, photo #498 (Lisanne with tied back hair) was taken at 13:01 and 14 seconds, while photo #499 (Lisanne with loose hair) was taken at 13:01 and 38 seconds.. At different places on the summit. Not a lot of time to do all that, ánd take a good photo of it.
UPDATE
in this travel program, I saw the following images come by of a cloud forest in nearby Costa Rica. Near the border with Panama. I screen saved them, because it does look like very localized patches of cloud seem pretty normal in this terrain.
WILDXPLOR
Look also once more at wildxplor's blog post and his photos. Still going by the afternoon (old) timeline, he went up the Pianista trail in the second part of April 2014, by 15.30 PM and was at the summit by 17.30 PM. Now compare his background with Kris' photo, which was said to have been taken at 13.01 PM (instead of 19.01 PM as the camera originally indicated). In his photo there is similar light clouding, but with a bit more blue still visible. The sunlight appears still pretty good for a late afternoon photo session. To me the light seems pretty similar in fact, despite the gap in time (according to police). Now in that regards: although it appears to be correct what police did in terms of recalculating these photo times to an 11:00 AM start of the trail and 13.00 PM summiting, I am also still not entirely sold on this. We have not seen the evidence, have not been presented the findings of the 'sun specialist' (which I have been told was not really a specialist at all, but just an employer from the NFI). Nobody bothered to explain away all the off witness accounts either. I don't exclude the possibility that the old timeline is correct after all.
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Power Pixie's thoughts on authorities messing with the photo chronology"I think the images are mixed up. Especially #499, #500, #501, and they have probably had to remove #509 first before mixing that set. They may have removed even more after #509 or perhaps not, but in trying to be clever they left behind a gaping hole. EXIF information is written when a photo is taken/created. It contains all the technical information like date/time stamps, when it was created/modified, camera lens used, focal length, exposure, etc. It's just a digital fingerprint of a photo. Once this photo file is created and the EXIF information stored as part of the file, if opened at a later time whether it is just to view it or edit it, more information is then written to the EXIF file as part of a running record. So if you open and edit it with Photoshop, this information is then noted in the EXIF and date/time stamps are also noted along with this new update of information. Juan discovered the inconsistencies years ago when he looked at the EXIF files. He saw that someone used a Window based software to edit the files. The basis of evidence tampering is there for all to see after this, no matter what theory you hold. And no explanation was given at the time as to why or what was done.
The main aspect to their photography is the pattern that was established:
- Kris somewhere in the composition
- Lisanne somewhere in the composition
- Establishing location/area where they took the above two photos
- Selfies
All of a sudden past the Mirador we don't see this pattern repeated. While hey had nice weather and bright light for a few more snaps. If the intention was to turn back, there would have been a final closing photographs, at the very least of the upstream or downstream views with both Lisanne and Kris. Think back to the first two stream photos (#479, 480) that to me were mundane, but important enough for Lisanne to take a couple of photos at least. Expectation vs Reality. Very few photographers past and present knew/know how to capture what they see/saw in the moment. Most capture 50% - 80% of what they saw. I'm not knocking off Lisanne's attempts. I'm saying that at River 1 or River 3, compared to the stream by the Iron Bridge, these two river crossings offered her just as important and interesting a view up and downstream. Whether she took another mundane photo isn't the point. She nor Kris took any more photos in keeping with the pattern."
About photo #550
Bennengelly wrote me below this blog post in Spanish (translated here): "Hi. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the picture where you can see a branch with pieces of red plastic was taken at 1:05 AM." - I suspect he bases this for the most part on the Dutch TV program Een Vandaag, who showed this:
Good question! Yes unfortunately the Een Vandaag team made errors in their display of the photos. In this screenshot, they show that photo 550 was taken at 01:05 indeed. But this is incorrect information. [Update: Matt had access to the case files and confirmed that photo 550 was taken at 01:39:54 AM]. They may have been very sloppy there because in the same TV program they also showed extracts from the official police file documents. And on it you see the times for the photos 510, 511, 512. All taken in the night of April 8th, at or around 01:30 AM. Photos were taken in close succession and photo 550 comes obviously after photo 512, so could in fact never have been taken at 01:05 AM. As the program makers showed (screenshot on the right), they had the correct police file info, and they also had a public prosecutor/investigator and police member in the studio during the show, to emphasize that they indeed shared such case file info with these journalists. Juan also noticed this inconsistency and wrote the following about it:
Juan also checked the EXIF data of all the photos that have been made public, and found the following data, which match the ascending (time) order which we saw in the police case file screenshot above. So the general consensus is that photo 550 was taken around 01:39, corresponding with its EXIF data and matching with the screenshots we have of the official police case file report... Thanks to Juan for explaining me this further today.
Also check out the great artwork made by Dwain Reynolds to go by this youtube video on the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne; The Lost Girls of Panama
Also check out this fab video from the same makers about the
Mystery of Mysteries: the Dyatlov Pass Incident!
I tried to make some more detailed and comprehensive maps of the exact area where Kris and Lisanne walked and where their remains were found, also indicating where approximately were finca's, wooden huts and houses in the vicinity
Was helped tremendously by Jeremy who found great online maps of the area and did a lot of searching work for finca's. I'll keep reading on public forums (some have thousands of pages..) about this disappearance case, and adjust the maps accordingly if needed. As the map shows, Kris and Lisanne could have walked wrong already after the meadow (where Kris' parents end up near the end of this video), but then they must have also found small wooden sheds and even the first inhabited house. And if they walked further even more houses (Alto Culebra).
And David M. also pointed me to Satellite Pro, where you can see very detailed maps of the world
Here you can zoom in on the Boquete area. Dave wrote: "Something that has affected the way I read what may have happened to the two friends is discovering the excellent Satellite Pro site, which offers astonishingly detailed and powerful aerial views of the Pianista wilderness and the ability to zoom in in a way that leaves Google.maps far behind in terms of quality. Using it, studying the area and potential routes, really opened up my mind to the reality that this is a story that can be divided into two halves. The first act is the initial disappearance on April 1st, and when I say disappearance that is exactly what happened to the two friends, although the Elvis Gonzales camp suggests their presence it remains unconfirmed, and so the two have literally dropped off the face of the earth, not got 'Lost'. But vanished. So anything anyone can think of here is largely meaningless as there is almost nothing to go on after the final Photo of the day. Act Two however begins with the finding of the backpack, and here is really where the attention should be as by its discovery (planting) comes virtually everything we know - the remains, the phones, the camera, etc. It all springs from the finding of that backpack. And that point has long fascinated me as this part of the story is where it is all at: the backpack leads to the remains discovery, Kris Kremers' shorts which have miraculously stayed in place in some eddy beside the river not far from the cable bridge, meanwhile we are to assume 97% of their remains have been washed away into oblivion... which when you study the route of the river on Sattelite.pro is a near absurdity really. A winding rubble strewn river would catch much of the remains along its channel, any flood powerful enough to wash away all of two bodies would certainly take a pair of shorts with it, and geographically if this had all washed down the river it should collect some remains at certain points. This is what happens on mountains and river channels - debris tends to funnel to certain points thanks to gravity and the geography, but all along the river and past Alto Romero no one notices all this human debris washing by, over at least several days...? I find this hard to believe to say the least. Something that also occurred to me was that given the searchers found numerous small fragments of bone, which turned out to belong to bodies from possible washed out graves of locals, it demonstrates that the search was reasonable thorough. If they found such small fragments like this, many years old, where is the rest of Kris and Lisanne...?"
Thank you Dave, that is indeed an excellent site and I already made some great screenshots from it in the past, of the places where Kris and Lisanne's remains were found along the river. I agree that the river is littered with rocks and it winds all over the place. It is unbelievable that entire bodies would be dragged away, never to be seen again, in such a winding bendy obstructed small river. The professionals agreed on this. They would in that case have found bodies or -parts stuck in bends.... Professionals stated the same, they found bodies in river bends who had been there for over a year. Intact bodies, despite of course being altered in appearance by decomposition. But it is unbelievable that those tiny rivers who go all over the place and have rocks everywhere, stunting flow of objects, could have made the bodies for 98% disappear the way they did. People also live alongside these small rivers, there are houses and farms nearby. The backpack was found by people bathing in the river, supposedly. So entire bodies floating by... exactly. Bodies with a 40.000 dollar reward, no less. Here are some photos showing just how teeny tiny those rivers are. They also show just how much open terrain there was in this area. Just how many places where Kris and Lisanne - had they truly been lost by themselves - could have stood, waving their coloured shirts, signaling the helicopters which flew over this area many, many times. But the helicopter pilots saw nothing, no sign of the girls. These are the locations where the (few) bones were found close by:
if Kris and Lisanne started their hike later (matching the witness statements from the language School staff and the taxi driver), they would have started their Pianista hike around 13:45 PM, would have been at the summit around 15:30, then at the quebrada (first stream) around 16:30, so ten minutes before first calling emergency services at 16:39 PM. Within this old timeline, the girls would have started calling emergency services either 10 minutes after crossing the stream (pictured on photos 507 and 508), or they would have turned around and called 10 minutes after the start of their walk back to the summit. At the first small stream, the distance from the Mirador (summit of the Pianista Trail) and this small river crossing is around 45 minutes worth of (normal) walking distance. It is possible, not to say likely, within this timeline that the first emergency call was made somewhere on a hill that can be seen in the left side screenshot. It’s actually a decent increase in height. With thanks to Jeremy S. who made these screenshots. One shows the elevation, another shows roughly where the girls would have been when they made their first emergency call - assuming the witness based timeline. Again: the distance from the Mirador to the stream is the equivalent of 45 minutes, and we for now assume (with this screenshot) that the first call to 112 was made 10 minutes after crossing the stream.
Maps
These images also show quite clearly that the girls had gone no real distance after the Mirador yet and that they were still a long way from the first cable crossing over a further away river. It also clearly shows the girls were no real distance from the stream they'd just crossed and in fact, given it was a hill rising from the stream with worn areas it's possible that when they made the first call they could look down and see the stream crossing still. It's also possible that they called when they reached the top of the hill and realized that the way ahead didn't lead to a path taking them back to Boquete, but instead further away. Jeremy S. also wrote me: "Although I firmly believe the girls were victims of crime I'm open to the possibility that the girls got lost first. For that reason I've created this map with shows all possible routes to the 1st stream." Thank you also Jeremy for your great maps.
The waterfall
These days there are signs placed at the top of the Pianista Trail, warning people not to keep walking further without a guide, because there is more treacherous terrain ahead. But there is also a small water fall ahead... On the photos 507 and 508 of Kris crossing a small river, a trail is shown that goes to a waterfall. A large waterfall beyond the Pianista summit. But it is hard to find. Is it possible that the girls deviated from the main path at some point to find this waterfall? And that they got lost along the way? Jeremy S. managed to find aerial 3D imagery of this mysterious waterfall! See screenshots below:
Maps of the area behind the Pianista Summit and where exactly some of the many small wooden cabins and finca houses lay
As you can see, this area is far from desolate, nor cut off from civilization. Locals walk the paths with their cattle, natives live in this region and have villages here (Alto Romero for instance, to name just one of them); they use the cable bridges over the rivers, as well as the other paths. Tourists and tour guides also pass this stretch of land.
• Casa Calixto = hiker's cabin - not permanently inhabited
• Casa Sinaproc = hiker's cabin with skull - not permanently inhabited
• Casa Matteo = possibly from the S. family - permanent? inhabited?
• Casa Mata ~ resembles 2 ruins here
• Casa Carlos = permanently inhabited?
• Finca Chani = not permanently inhabited
1. indicated the place where the jeans shorts from Kris were found.
20. shows the summit of the Pianista Trail; the Mirador.
The next map shows the stretch of terrain the girls could have covered on day 1 (April 1st) of their disappearance, and where in this area wood cabins lie:
2024 Photo from Romain showing all the huts near the Mirador
This graphic makes me think that Kris and Lisanne were returning from their last photo location River 1, when they may have been intercepted by Henry and his friends, and they convinced Kris and Lisanne that the hidden waterfall was nearby. Taking them through one of these secret paths, but that did not lead to the hidden waterfall but may have taken them further away from Boquete and into very unfamiliar territory."
Were these night photos really taken in a riverbed besides the Pianista Trail? I doubt it
One thing that is certain now however, is that these photos were not taken to 'light the way'. Or while on the go. Or while fleeing for something. The person who took these shots remained in the same area for certain while taking these photos.
Why? Why so many of the same photos also? Why no selfies? Why no clearer view of that location? (Do keep in mind that the photo times and numbers have not been confirmed by the authorities). Big thank you and shout out to Juan, who first found and published all these photos. As for finding this tree and identifying the night photo location; if that tree still exists it may look different after six years, and if it were truly other people who faked these night photos, they probably got rid of the identifiable V-shaped branch soon after.
In video form:
Photo #511 (IMG_511)
Probably taken around 01:30 AM
Photo #553 (IMG_0553)
Taken around 01:40:32 AM
Photo #567
Taken around 01:44,12 AM
Photo #584
Taken around 01:51,56 AM
Photo #590
Taken around 01:55,01 AM
Photo #595
Taken around 02:00 AM
Photo #600
Taken around 02:15 AM
Photo #603
Taken around 02:31,25 AM
Photo #605 (IMG_605)
Taken around 02:46,16 AM
Photo #607
Taken around 03:09 AM
Photos #608 and #609 (IMG_608/609)
Taken around 03:22,47 / 04:10 AM
Some good suggestions made by Magnus:
"Well, for a start all droplet types can be identified: if it's rain, mist or from a waterfall or even a cave it's possible to tell one from the other, it's basic fluid mechanics. From how translucent the droplets are it's also possible to know what's inside them. Also, the rock shown in a photo has a specific curvature and pattern to it, unique to it, unmistakable in computer recognition software (they can do this with rocks on Mars so on Earth it's a piece of cake). Then the vegetation shown in the photos can be identified by a biologist or a botanist, lots of those in the Netherlands. There are issues when there is lack of evidence, not too much evidence as in this case, even if all evidence shows up clean. The position the person was in when taking the photos can also be determined, so reconstituting that night scene can't be hard. Note: from the weather report it's possible to know where it was raining and from the rain intensity to pinpoint the location of the photos." - I answered that unfortunately the Dutch Prosecution is done with this case and not willing to reopen it. If we want that, we have to personally write Betzaida Pitti in Panama with that request. She won't reopen either. So then it comes down to people who follow this case to find these things out somehow? If anyone has an interest in these subtopics described by Magnus, or is specialized in them perhaps even, feel free to shine your light on these photos..
David also had good suggestions: "Genuine or Fake. It says a good deal about these night-time shots that even a sit-on-the-fence like me is finding them suspicious. On the face of it these photographs do seem convincing and in line with what you would expect of someone who is physically and mentally exhausted, possibly injured, and certainly at the far limits of her ability to cope with the situation she is in. Camped outdoors, deep into the night-time, and it starts raining. There is some protection from an overhang or the trees above you but not enough that you can get any sleep and ignore the downpours. So remembering you have one, you pull out the camera and start lighting up your misery.... Really these pictures are as much a subject for a psychologist as a geologist. Yet despite their time frame and the conditions they are being taken in they suffer from one curious flaw - there are no signs of life in them. No legs coming into shot, no knee or arm, no boot or backpack coming into the frame, nothing. Except that shot of what appears to be Kris Kremers' hair, and because of this this is the photograph that is the odd one out of the entire set, the one photograph that shows something human (after a fashion). But why take it then? Over three hours of shooting, carefully and deliberately avoiding showing anything of yourself, or your friend, and you then shoot this extreme close-up of the back(?) or her head. Just the one photograph. You can analyze too much. And I am well aware that if this is Lisanne (or even Kris) then they aren't going to be in the best state mentally, so logic isn't necessarily a factor in the use of this camera. But still, to pull out the camera after seven days for a three hour-plus shoot, deliberately avoid shooting anything of yourself and your friend, then put it away again and never use it.... No, I accept that logic doesn't need to play a part given their situation here, and yet is it not telling that there is nothing human in these eighty odd shots? Nothing definitive. So well framed and perhaps even cropped that they really are eighty-odd photographs of nothing.... there is virtually no information whatsoever to be had here in them. And nothing to my mind that even definitively shows that Lisanne and Kris are indeed present here. Eighty odd photographs of nothing. I really don't know what to make of them, or even say about them...."
I replied: "Thanks for your thoughts. It makes no sense to me why any of the two girls would have been shooting the same pictures over and over again, for almost 3 hours, in the dark of night. People say that they may not have wanted to take selfies because it could frighten their parents, as they must have lost weight etc, but even if their hand(s) would have been photographed, it would have been able to tell us more about who took those shots. Now the only thing linking Kris and Lisanne to them at all is the back of the head shot from Kris' hair. And that photo becomes more scary every time you look at it. I can't believe thát is the type of photo you would make of your friend, after a week alone in the jungle.. A week without taking any photo. This whole nightly photo series seems vague on purpose. Yes! As Magnus suggested, we would all benefit greatly from the specialist help of a biologist or a botanist in order to identify the lit up 'droplets' in the sky and the vegetation on scene. But also a take on these photos by a psychoanalyst would be extremely interesting. True also; why does not one of those 90-something photos show their backpack? Their personal belongings? Their shoes or legs? Anything really that makes us able to positively identify them being there in person? Aside from the eerie back of the head shot, which reminds me more of a military execution scene than of the kind of picture you would normally take from your friend. And indeed, maybe they were hallucinating at this point, or in an erratic hysteria from the anxiety and hunger and despair. But we cannot let go of all logic in this; if that were the case, how come all these photos are sharp? Focused clearly on the same scene, the same tree. Not one photo shows a vague diagonal shot of the ground for instance, which you'd expect if you'd sling the camera around in terror and just shot pictures randomly. No, they are all taken with a steady hand and aimed at a specific composition. Thanks for your very good analysis."
David replied: "Yes! This is the sort of thing I was struck by with them, although I do bear in mind the psychological effects that might be motivating Lisanne or Kris at this point these are still deliberately framed shots. Some do have the rain hitting the lens and leading to strobing lighting from the Flash of the camera, but in general there IS a sense of some purpose to them. The angle does strongly support the idea that the photographer is either laid down or seated throughout, but beyond that it is difficult to read much else from them other than the fact that the shot of Kris' head is the odd one out of the set. With photoshopping possibilities and the lack of anything in the set that definitively identifies either Kris or Lisanne as being present it is right to be questioning these pictures. For one thing what does gradually become apparent when you look at the set in Juan's album, is that several of those photographs are in fact direct duplicates, you can play this game if you study the set closely - as the rain droplets are a dead giveaway. Duplicated photographs, were these duplicates a left-over from the other hands who have handled the pictures over the weeks/years since the event, or were they present when the Camera was handed to the Police originally? We will never know. But with one photograph deleted upon arrival and these several others showing duplication and possible manipulation it is understandable to me why many are suspicious of their origins and even reject them. [..] Over the year I have dipped in and out of this story so much has changed in how it is being perceived and reported that it has become very clear that the biggest hurdle any investigator faces with it is in being able to separate the assumptions now being taken as fact, and just what it was (and is) that the actual evidence is showing."
A graphic designer sent me interesting photo compositions Raghab worked on the hair photo from Kris and I like to share his great work, with his permission. I realize that many people will think that this was just an odd photo taken by Lisanne of her friend; possibly while she was walking ahead of her. But another group of sleuths thinks that a 3rd party took this photo. Raghab believes so too. He is strongly convinced that the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne is a case of "Murder in cold blood", and that there may be more than one person involved. He also believes that at the time this photo was taken, Kris was already dead. There has been a lot of online debate about this photo. Jeremy Kryt claimed to have seen the original and there was a head wound visible. The full photo I have shared (acquired through Juan and leaked by someone close to the investigation in Panama) does not show a clear head wound, however. Going by this leaked photo, we could determine for ourselves that no clear head wound is visible. Aside from some vague markings under the clean looking and dry hair. What is visible vaguely under the hair is up for debate. It may just be lit up and underlit hair, creating contrasts. But many people think that they can see the outline of a nose (nostrils). Others see a mouth, a jaw or a wound hidden under the hair. (2nd photo credits to Marcos).
Raghab believes that gruesomely, we may be observing the severed head of Kris. One person is holding her head up by the hair and another person took the photo. R. thinks that this photo was later cropped, to get rid of evidence about the surroundings. He told me that we can see the hair outline, eye socket and lips. He compared the proportions to a superimposed picture of Kris, taken at the Pianista summit. As he sees it, Kris' hair is being pulled at the top, as if someone is holding up her head by the hair. So part of the hair is pulled, while the rest is covering her face. In fact, R. thinks he has the evidence for this because we can apparently see the killer's right hand thumb and left hand index finger at the bottom of the photo. R. added photos to visually explain what he means.
Thanks for your work Raghab! And thanks so much for sharing. There is a death mask feel about the photo, I agree. Whatever is lingering under that hair, she looks unfortunately deceased. I ain't sure myself if her face can be seen under the hair or not. But R. makes an excellent case here for a normal positioned face underneath the hair. I wondered how Raghab estimated the chance of it being Kris' jaw on the right and her face lying like this? (See photo on the right; says first 'nose', then 'open mouth') Because I am still unsure about that row of white, as I see it? Which in the vertical photo on the right looks like it could form a row of teeth in the lower jaw. What could they be in the horizontally flipped photo which R shared? They don't match an ear or anything in his excellent overlap. Raghab replied that my vertical face orientation (90 degrees clockwise) suggestion is a good one, but that he sees problems with it. He sent a basic anatomy image of a frontal human face and used it to make an overlap image with my 'vertical photo'. Problems he sees with it are that Kris' forehead would be missing in my version. Also, the teeth would not be in a normal proportional line in accordance to the human anatomy, but would have had to be shifted to the left (marked in green in his overlap photo). And the supposed open mouth (marked in pink) would have shifted to the left (marked in white). He thinks this is only possible if her jaw bone would have been broken and dislocated from her skull joint (yikes!).
On the right here, in Raghabs ('horizontal') photo orientation, he marked in green the place of the ear with the black earring. In red he indicated the right height for the top of the ear. He explained that when sketching facial anatomy, a single eye is used as a measurement unit. For instance, to determine the gap between both eyes (which is equal to the length of one eye), the width of the mouth (generally equal to the length of 2 eyes) and the width of the nose (1 eye). The height of the ear is measured by the distance between the eyebrow and the base of the nose. And the distance between the nose base and the eyeline equals 1.5 eye length. Taking all of this into consideration with this photo, R. considers the 'horizontal' photo orientation the best option. The white mark - which I considered to be teeth - is present here on the frontal cheekbone and R. thinks it may be a wound that was treated with bandage or tissue paper.But then that wig would be a real good match in colour and texture.. How would someone in Boquete Panama purchase such a perfectly coloured and textured (wig) match in that short timeframe? Nah..
I replied that I see what he means and that he made a good case for the proper proportions of Kris' face to better match a horizontal composition. I wondered why the top of the head, where Kris' hair is cascading from at the highest point, looks so very far up. R. explained this by letting you imagine a head that is being pulled up by the hair, so to speak. He also believes that we can see the shapes of fingers near the right bottom side of the mouth and at the hair bundle. He believes the photo was cropped, to cut out more footage of the people involved, as well as hiding deep cuts and wounds from the photo. I also told him that I keep the option open that the two girls were both lying there, next to each other (or over one another), and that the hair of the one is flipped over the face of the other. I even wondered out loud if this hair may be a wig perhaps? As it is looking so clean and dry (albeit a bit tangled), for someone who wouldn't have washed it for over a week? But then that wig would be a real good match in colour and texture.. How would someone in Boquete Panama purchase such a perfectly coloured and textured match in that short timeframe? Nah.. I also wondered why a perpetrator who seemingly goes to great lengths to hide his crime, would allow such a photo to be made if it gives clues to Kris being dead? Raghab thinks these photos were probably taken for fun and later submitted in order to divert police verification. He thinks that the spot where these photos were taken is also the place where their bodies were dismembered and disposed of. "All those photos were clicked hurriedly, so we can see the fingers on the lens (bright blotches) on some photographs." He also considers it possible that the two girls were indeed lying there, next to each other or over each other, and the hair of one of them was flipped over the face of the other. Or that both of the girls' heads may be tangled by their hair. In the right bottom corner you can see what look like strings of brown hair, roughly bundled into a single mesh, contrasting with the other strawberry blond hair. So all in all, R. believes that this photo indicates that Kris and Lisanne met foul play. I am not sure if this interpretation from this pivotal photo is correct or not. But R. makes an intelligent and well-motivated case for it. This whole disappearance case is, in the end, a very sad and murky one. A lot of details are known, but nothing really adds up. There is conflicting info along every bend of the way. Highly tragic, whatever scenario someone may believe in, Kris and Lisanne must have endured horrors either way 😨😩
And blog user Matt (not from IP) also sent me an interesting version of the same photo
Matt adjusted the hair photo in photoshop to work out the "neck" area some more. All colour adjustments and colour manipulations of this photo were done global, meaning that they affect the entire image in the same manner. These colour adjustments are therefore not just applied to the neck area: it affects all parts of the image equally. In this manipulated photo, it does seem like we are looking at the back of the head and the back of the neck of Kris. And that there are wounds visible on her neck, underneath her hair. Dark holes. They do not look like gunshot wounds, but like larger wounds from being struck with something heavy. But there is no blood visible in her hair. This "wound area", with its redness now exaggerated, stands out and has a different red hue than the hair. Matt wanted to separate the wound area from the hair to be able to see its details better. Of course, due to the manipulating effect, one can wonder if this result is realistic or just a side effect of the colour adjustments. Nevertheless, this photo result may discard the notion that we see Kris' face under the hair. Matt himself doesn't think that we are looking at nostrils and an upper jaw. The distance between nostrils and teeth doesn't fit in his opinion.
Matt adjusted the hair photo in photoshop to work out the "neck" area some more. All colour adjustments and colour manipulations of this photo were done global, meaning that they affect the entire image in the same manner. These colour adjustments are therefore not just applied to the neck area: it affects all parts of the image equally. In this manipulated photo, it does seem like we are looking at the back of the head and the back of the neck of Kris. And that there are wounds visible on her neck, underneath her hair. Dark holes. They do not look like gunshot wounds, but like larger wounds from being struck with something heavy. But there is no blood visible in her hair. This "wound area", with its redness now exaggerated, stands out and has a different red hue than the hair. Matt wanted to separate the wound area from the hair to be able to see its details better. Of course, due to the manipulating effect, one can wonder if this result is realistic or just a side effect of the colour adjustments. Nevertheless, this photo result may discard the notion that we see Kris' face under the hair. Matt himself doesn't think that we are looking at nostrils and an upper jaw. The distance between nostrils and teeth doesn't fit in his opinion.
Also, Dave M. looked very closely at this photo and noticed some things under the hair. He wrote: "Looking at this picture of what we must suppose is Kris Kremers' hair isn't the most pleasant of pastimes, potentially a snapshot of her lying down and either seriously aiming or already deceased it stand out from the collection of other photographs on that night of 8th April as it is the only one of those three hours of shooting where the Photographer decides to show something human. An indicator that there IS actually a person here. Or is it....? Enough has been said on this picture's strangeness as a shot, and the decision of the photographer to shoot it. I myself am very wary of its provenance, its lack of clarity and the utter impossibility of working out any orientation of the head supposedly beneath it is deeply worrying. It is automatically assumed this must be a shot of the back of the head, but then perhaps it is the top of her head, but wait - look to that long lock of hair that falls along the bottom of the picture from right to left - surely then that is the 'floor' it lies across? That is the bottom and the 'head' must be laid on its side therefore? But what CAN we perhaps see in this image? We can see that the colour and texture is a near enough match for Kris Kremers hair certainly. We can see that the shot is taken very close-up, which may tie in with the other three hours of photography as it appears the person taking these photographs is probably seated on the ground, with a restricted room to move in, perhaps wedged between a rock wall and a boulder, and so the choice in where to aim and shoot is very limited. For an image that is so vividly indicative of Kris Kremers on the night on the 8th April this is a shot that shows, well, nothing really. A formless mass of hair, little to say whether it is attached to a head, where that head might be, and whether Kris is aware and awake. So on the surface of things it shows us nothing actually. But like some game of "Where's Wally" this is an image that contains a number of hidden add-ons. Strangeness isn't just confined to the choice of the Image itself, but to what lives within it...
Things I noticed: To the left of the image a strange watermarking can be found. Lettering apparently. Strangely for something that must be an overlay the overlay has strands of hair apparently overlaid over the top of it! But it is the bottom-right corner though that is the most mysterious area of the image, half obscured in shade and murk it may or may not show some evidence of photoshop work, but it is by far the busiest and most baffling area of the picture as this is where the 'Bun' is seen and contains one or two surprises. At first glance the sight is that of a conventional 'Bun', of the hair being wound up, but apart from the photographic evidence showing that Kris Kremers never tied her hair so extravagantly (just a simple 'knot' was enough) it is when you zoom in closely that the fuller effect becomes apparent. Beneath the wound-up hair (curiously appearing partially black, partially blonde/red) we see a white ivory coloured object. This object, whatever it is, is what the hair is wound around, and appears to have some form of patterning or rough etching on its surface. You can see the overall effect best when you tip the picture upside-down. And you see that whatever this white Ivory item is it extends around the under-edges of the 'Bun' and again appears to be marked with some patterning, or perhaps writing. It is distorted, stretched, but whether this is a result of the conditions at the time, or evidence of Photoshop work, it raises several immediate questions - what IS this object? Where did it come from? What is its Purpose? And who placed it so...
All food for thought, but there's more. Just to the left of the Bun - - is something just as remarkable. Perhaps it is connected to the object beneath the 'Bun', perhaps not. But this is something I spotted and initially felt it was another trick of the light and shadows that perpetuate these pictures continued fascination. When looking closer the suspicion that this was something other than an optical illusion grew stronger, and it was while toying with the overall picture by splitting its colour contrast using a CMYK tool that the suspicion became conviction. CMYK is useful in these situations as it can work like an x-ray, showing greater clarity and detail than the standard colour image and revealing hidden objects. The colour original, once you know where to look, shows a small object that is probably rectangular and seemingly with a speckled surface. This put me in mind of Kris Kremers' sunglasses initially, but a check and comparison makes this seem very unlikely in the end as the glasses are very different in shape and texture. What this object is is anyone's guess. As with the White Ivory object beneath the 'Bun' I offer no theories or suggestions as I haven't a clue myself! I really do have no idea what to say on it all."And one person wrote about this photo: "The pixelation of the night hair photo is too detailed to be a cropped fraction of the original. Even if the camera was at a max default setting of like 5000x3000, to crop it down and still retain the amount of detail the night hair photo has, at 1074 width? Unlikely. You could make it look like a night photo IF you had some people with more experience than simply dragging an exposure bar. Certain things in the night photo seem legit. The strawberry blonde hair has a luminescence, a transparency, that the camera flash demonstrates in the night photo. This happens with very light hair when a light source is applied at night. Instead of listening to people on the internet, including me, find the real "bun photo" in question and compare for yourself. Lisanne's jawline is also in the night photos. She has a tiny, almost unnoticeable mole or bump on her chin. That is one of the ways you can distinguish her jaw from, for instance, one of the girls' arms. Her skin texture gives it away too. I am not sure if it is a fake. After taking so many photos of one's own face, it is inevitable that you will see duplicate angles. I don't think the night photos are photoshopped. At most, if anything, they are staged. I have a feeling one or more girls is already dead or very close to dying at the time of the night photos, whoever took them."
Update
April 4th 2021: some people online uploaded their version of the night photo. Unfortunately their posts have been removed again, but one person showed a cropped version of the night photo of Kris' hair placed vertically, and believes we are looking at nostrils and teeth. Another photo is a good photo comparison, insinuating we are looking at the bend head of Kris, looking down slightly and that we see the top of the head as well, which could explain the 'high forehead' issue (click on photo to enlarge):
How most of the night photos all fit into one big photoJanuary 26th, 2020.
For a long time it was assumed that the following shape could be that of the body of Kris, laying down in a ravine of sorts.. But now that many more night photos have been leaked, we can see that this same outline has been photographed from many different angles. And it is clearly not the outline of a body, but the lit up shape of a leaf. I also found how almost all these night photos, except for the one of the plastic on a stick, the photo of the back of the head of Kris and the ones with round lit up shapes, all fit into one big photo. I will add it at the end of this video. In the following video I will highlight this specific leaf, as well as another leaf right next to it on the right, by drawing the same sort of red line around them. So you can see that the same things have been pictured over and over again: a tree and this foliage. What do you think: should we place the overall collage image horizontally, or vertically? I think that whomever took these photos aimed the camera upwards and not downwards. At the sky and not down a ravine. The majority of the photos seem to have been taken 'horizontally' in composition, I'm inclined to think the rock wall is on the left, not bottom down. We can also rule out the scenario that the girls fell in a ravine and were stuck: if that were the case, the reflection light of the flash would have bounced back from the right hand side. It does not. It is still theoretically possible that there is some ravine behind them; we cannot see everything as the camera is aimed upward. But whomever took these photos was able to move around and change positions. Difficulty with these photos, is that the flash light distorts the image, to some degree. Using a flash in the dark, can make some things appear closer by in the photo than they actually are. Another major thing to keep in mind with this collage photo, is that I did connect all the photos by exact overlap lines at the edges, but that the collage is ultimately not the same as one photo. All the individual photos that are combined in the collage, have been taken from slightly different positions, perspectives and angles. Therefore it is very artificial to glue them all together and the end result may not be the same as when you were physically at this location yourself and simply stepped back to overlook the scene. I'm just trying to show that these photos were taken at the same location and that the photographer took meticulous shots from this one lookout, moving the camera bit by bit in order to capture the view.
Thiago wrote me that he is a botanist and that in his opinion the correct position of the end (collage) image is the one with the ground placed horizontally: so the vertical picture on the right. He thinks this, because plants always grow towards the sun, even when they grow in slopes or rocks (this mechanism is called positive phototropism). "With that in mind, if the rocks were in a vertical position, the plants would not be growing perpendicularly to the rock, but parallel to it instead. So I am convinced that the rocks are horizontal. The trees in the right side of the image look like vertical trees in the separate photos. But in the collage image they don't look like entire trees, but like horizontal branches of a vertical tree. There is also a long branch in the top left corner. If the rock is vertical, this branch should be pending and not erect I think..". He added some photos he took while out during a field expedition. "I imagine that the night photos were taken in a place like this - but not so high; the rock in my pictures has more or less 300 metres of elevation. In my opinion, based on experiences in places similar to this one in Brazil... these photos seem to have been taken on the summit of a peak. And the rocks appear to be on the edge of a precipice." [..] "The position of the rocky ground and the type of plants growing on it, as well as the position of these plants, suggest that the place is not too slope (more for a small ravine than a precipice); the trunks and branches at the bottom of the night photos suggest that the place is somewhat open from above, but surrounded by dense vegetation, with tall trees with long and hanging branches. Water droplets caught on the photos can be from rain or a possible waterfall. Putting all these conclusions together, the possible location of the night shots would be something very similar to that of this image from Juan of a waterfall." - Image added here:
Thank you for that, Thiago. Very interesting, also to see the way plants can grow on top of rock formations. I guess I wonder also if it could be true what the parents and their lawyer initially said: that these photos were taken from a cave? That's what they thought. I'd say that the horizontal collage photo "may" show a cave, with the big rock on the left. Although I am also doubtful about this at the same time, because of the lack of reflection of flash light from some angles. Same for the head photo of Kris' hair; if that was taken at the backdrop of rock or anything really, wouldn't this rock have lit up too in the flash of the photo? Now the background is just darkness.. But the right, vertical collage photo looks much more like the top of some summit indeed. I would say; the top of a waterfall perhaps even. Could the combination of the rock, with the water droplets all through the sky in many night photos (yet Kris' hair is dry so it wasn't a downpour of rain) with the vegetation and the direction in which it grows indeed lead to an area near a waterfall? Or a deep, dry riverbed?"
**I must add that I do not believe that Kris and Lisanne took these photos themselves.. I think they were taken by someone else, and staged, as if to show the investigators that these girls were still out there alone by day eight. If that were the case however, then I'd assume at least some photos that could identify them. But there is very little there to identify them. Aside from the strange back of the head shot from Kris and vague lit up profile of what may have been Lisanne, or which could just as well be the lit up finger or knuckle from a man with some fine hairs on it. But they are so abstract and tell us very little... The most plausible reason to choose for such vague dark shots, to me, is for a 3rd party to make a false trail. There is no indication or proof that helicopters flew at night in that mountainous forest terrain and neither that search teams were out in the dark. These are also not the last dying actions from the girls, because Kris' iPhone was activated for a whole hour on day eleven, so four days after these night photos were taken. But if Kris and Lisanne really were stuck in some place on or next to a rock formation, and they couldn't move anymore (because mostly all the photos were taken of the same things), then their bodies should have been found there as well. Together. Not a few bones 14 walking hours up north from the Pianista Trail's summit, in a place where there are no direct ravines or water falls. No microscopic animal claws or teeth or anything really visible on those bones. How did two girls get trapped in a ravine of sorts, unable to get out supposedly, but their bodies naturally managed to end up many kilometres up north? So, I have little illusions about these night photos. All that truly interests me is where they were taken and by whom? Juan has found some very interesting possible locations of interest, in and near the Caldera hot springs region:
Guido Steiner wrote me in response to the night photo collage: "Literally putting the pieces together.👍😊 It also makes sense that whoever took the pics did not move around through difficult terrain in the midst of the night, neither girls in acute distress nor perpetrators aiming to create a halfway credible deception. By the way, has anybody ever tried to generate a list or tree like summaries of all theories around certain aspects of the case, with some subjective assessments of likelihood Like, in the case of these night photos: Group 1: Shots were taken by (one of) the girls. In this case, the Intention was most likely not to depict anything special, but to take the pictures for a specific side effect.
1a. Illuminating the path taken. Can be ruled out by the fact they did not move around at all, a blinding flash would not also not have helped much.
1a. Illuminating the path taken. Can be ruled out by the fact they did not move around at all, a blinding flash would not also not have helped much.
1b. Beacon theory. (One girl moving around, the point of return marked by the other one by repeated camera flashing). Unlikely to risk that shortly before daybreak, unless acute emergency and concrete expectation to achieve anything.
1c. Attracting help theory. (Possibly targeting small planes flying over or search teams heard from a distance.) - Unclear if any of those targets existed. Photos taken exactly in time window were most people are in deepest sleep and lowest chance to alert anybody. Unlikely that search teams would have missed signals if close by. (Possibility though that they ultimately attracted the wrong type of people.)
1d. Scaring away animals theory. Not completely implausible at that time in the night, but occasional shots that light up objects in the foreground also render this less likely. (Pointing the camera up in the air or towards a steeper escarpment: night active birds that make strange sounds?)
1e. Flashing emergency signals with camera. (Like SOS or international distress signal) | Unlikely at that time in the night, much better chances that signal is seen when early evening or morning. Exact time stamp pattern of all shots would still be interesting to be analyzed (if available).
1f. Leaving behind a message. Except saying "we spent another horrible night out there", nothing meaningful could be decoded by anyone in these images and there are obvious possibilities to have left a really meaningful one. Can be ruled out safely, probably.
1g. Total desperation (intolerable state of anxiety, panic or boredom during a sleepless night that causes the camera to be used just because there’s nothing else to do and this helped to calm down nerves and give a remaining sense of freedom of action.) | Possibility should be assessed by expert, but probably has to be taken into account as well in case of absence of more convincing alternatives.... And similar for the obvious group 2. Anyway, could be useful to get a quick glance of what has been thought of yet."
1a: the first and the last photo and mostly all the photos in between show the same area; the same tree, the same foliage. There was no moving around depicted. I dismiss therefore by now the theory that the flash of the camera was used to illuminate the path, while on the run for something or while walking in the dark. (Which would be a very unwise and dangerous thing to do in a foreign jungle anyway).
1b: exactly; unlikely for that to start around 01:30 AM and stop shortly before sunrise; but a good suggestion.
1c: there is currently absolutely zero evidence that a helicopter flew at night (too dangerous) or that search teams were walking in the dead of night in the tropical forest. Very unlikely that they would flash for almost 3 hours, if that were the case. Sound travels a lot further also.
1d: not realistic either probably; none of the photos show any evidence of an animal. And you wouldn't scare it away for nearly 3 consecutive hours, sometimes flashing 5 times in one minute. Then there would have been an animal pictured at least on one of the photos, you'd think..
1e: like 1c; no evidence whatsoever that anyone was out there searching for them at night. And voices and shouts would have reached much further than a camera flash aimed at the sky
1f: they had a camera with photo+video option: if they wanted to leave a message, all they had to do was record or photograph one. Their camera would have been found no matter what. And if they were still walking around then there are easier ways to leave a message behind", such as using sticks to form words, using rocks to scrape messages onto other rocks; they had paper also it seems.
1g: if the photographer was nearly delirious, the photos wouldn't have been made conscientiously of the same things over and over, for such a long time. You'd expect more erratic photos; more unsharp photos taken while moving an arm for instance. I don't understand the boredom theory... They could have viewed their own holiday photos, hundreds of them by then, if they were bored. Why not make a photo then of your leg, arm, your bag, all of your surroundings. These were highly intelligent girls, they would have put some variety into these 99 night photos if they just shot away out of boredom or psychological distress I think.-Well, not a lot of pure objectivity in the answers, as you can tell :) That one is more difficult than often expected." - More photos of a waterfall which may be a possible match with the elusive and mysterious night photos, Charco La Cascada. Credits to Juan who found them all, these are his photos also:
The night photos revisitedI received two photos from Mutinyonthekitkat, in which he shows and explains that the night 'SOS photo' fits in with my previously made night photo collage. Very well spotted and thank you for the heads up. I have worked on his suggestion and now show you my thoughts on it all, also messing about in photoshop to show you how this photo could fit in with the collage. This new match confirms once again that these photos (taken between apprx 01:30 and 04:10am on April 8th, so 8 days into their disappearance) were all taken from one and the same location. So the camera and its flash were not used by the girls in order to light their way, while on the run for instance. Also no photo evidence of any animal has been found on these photos, making it also unlikely that they used the flash to scare off animals. If they used the camera to signal someone, it begs the question who that could have been, because helicopters didn't fly in the dark of night in the mountainous tropical forest and search troops haven't been reported to have searched at that time either in the dead of night. Zero evidence for that. I also explain at the end of the video that even though I myself am not convinced that Kris and Lisanne took these night photos, I do think it is important to get a very clear image of the location where these photos were taken. Because it would be a step
forward in this disappearance case if someone would be able to positively identify this location. Also, I am not very computer savvy and it did take me a lot of energy and time to make these last three night time videos (and they are still amateurish), but for me, their 'value' may lay in the fact that it should now be visually clear to everyone that there is no reflection of the body from Kris down in a ravine in those night photos. It is 100% proven now that this shape is in fact a specific leaf, which has been photographed throughout the many nighttime photos and from different angles and perspectives. So lets put a big heavy No Entrance beam in front of that (Body of Kris-) side avenue. The same story for the theory that Kris and Lisanne were walking at night or trying to find their way in the dark, or were fleeing from someone and needed the flash of the camera to light the way. No. From the first to the last photo, taken over a time-frame of more than 3 hours, the same view was pictured over and over. The same distinct trees, the same rocks, the same sky. Here is my youtube video on the matter:
Mutinyonthekitkat wrote: "Looking at the bigger format version of the 'round mirror and tissues on the rock' photo (not included in your nice panorama here), across on the left edge of it you can definitely see the same rounded top of the rocky wall visible bottom right at 0:48. There's a distinctive bright-lit little plant with four tiny leaves in a line against the blackness and two unmistakable dark lines in the rock near the top also visible in some other photos. It shows that the mirror and tissues and the backpack strap on the flat rock are directly to the right and close to the camera. If you look at the dull rocks and little plant on the left side of that first photo link they can form an overlapping panorama with some of the other bright foreground wall photos and this seems to prove the mirror and paper on the flat rock are close to the right of the camera. It must also prove we're looking upwards at the bright foreground wall and plants rather than across a horizontal ledge and down into darkness. I don't understand where the 'twig with orange plastic' fits into the rest of the pictures. Its the most mysterious one of all I think. As the relative order of the photos is uncertain (I seem to remember reading), it makes it even harder to see where it fits in with the other night photos. In trying to make sense of the photos I've put together a v. crude panorama of my own."
David M. wrote: "That's Excellent detective work! With nothing to orientate yourself with in these pictures it has always been near to impossible to tell whether you are standing at height and looking over a precipice, or looking up at a rockwall and the Sky. When I first saw these photographs the natural assumption was that it was looking over a drop and into the forest below, that changed to thinking it was a rockwall, but examining these photographs now, in this context, there are some small details about the photographer that become evident, particularly if you take the view that we are looking over a precipice and drop to down below: *Most or all of these photographs are taken looking in one direction, we can now tell this as between the distinctive 'fork' tree and the plant you highlight that appears in all of the images the photographer is not seated, but stood. We can be sure of this as the girls never used the zoom feature and so whoever is taking these images is stepping around slightly to peer over the edge. It is also clear that the Photographer is not taking static shots - the camera is apparently being used both vertically and horizontally. and possibly even diagonally as they are taking the shots from one perspective, and wherever they are is only allowing for left-to-right views. And this is what is dictating these shots. *Again if we stay with the idea this is a precipice we are looking over then it raises the question as to what is behind the Photographer? If the set of photographs is all the same location where does the Boulder fit in, and for that matter given the forced perspective of that image could it be something other than a boulder? I would say it has to be a boulder due to its shape and texture, but it is very different to the rockwall we see.
*One other detail that supports the precipice idea is that for the most part the camera lens stays clear. If this was a wall of rock we were looking upwards to, with the photographer laid or sat down, then most of theses images would be distorted by raindrops hitting the lens as the Photographer spends so much time pointing it at what we think is the sky it actually make little or no sense that they would point it at the heavens! So a precipice, the camera looking downwards would mean minimal rain on the lens and so the quality of pictures we see here. *With so little movement from the photographer - essentially just left to right photography as seen here - is this indicative that they are based on a ledge somewhere? We never see what is behind them, we can only wonder where the large Boulder fits into this location, but if you consider the 'SoS display then if these shots were looking upwards then that tree cover we see would likely cover any chances of arial sightings from rescue craft of the display. It's impossible to say but you do get the impression that if this is Lisanne and Kris they may have instinctively headed for height, and this then isn't necessarily by any river but is somewhere with height. We cannot know either way. But it is curious that the photographer is clearly very limited in what direction they can shoot in here. It is left-to-right shooting, over what might be a deep ravine. And on balance I do now return to the idea that this is what we see here, not upwards shooting and a rockwall above them, but an attempt at gaining height that has ended with them perhaps now on a ledge and with very limited options for moving...David M. continued: "[..] Like me If you try to study them you do quickly end up with a frazzled mind, they [the photos] are migraine inducing if you try to study them in sequence and in detail, as while many show something none of this 'something' means a thing. I've realised the problem is your mind is trying to make sense out of nonsense. There is no real logic or reasoning here, just visual static. Whether we are looking down over a ledge, or upwards with a rockwall, is something you can play either way. Studying the photographs again with the plant as a reference point does bring a little more sense to some of them as you can then grasp nearly all of them are taken from that one very narrow spot, looking over(?) a ledge and into the trees that fall away below. Is it a cave they are in, somewhere with an overhang? The ledge the photographer is stood on would be very small, and potentially very dangerous. I can't make sense of the Boulder photograph in this context however, and even the 'SoS' display looks dubious again in this context. One of the problems with this set of photographs as we've said is that it lacks any human touch or indeed proof either of the girls is here, and they filled around ninety photographs with scenes that are suspicious in their apparent composure and framing, it may be a set of pictures filled with chaos and static but the framing of many of the images is deliberate. But as a location? There is virtually nothing here. No clues as to where this place might be, there is no way to be completely sure whether we are looking upwards, or downwards. No sense of place - as in what the immediate area looks like around the photographer. Just a fascination in shooting off over that ledge and into the distance.... as I've said, it is as if the camera and the phones are in two different places, being worked by different people. And the strangest aspect is that neither of these two bits of evidence has any sense of passion or purpose to them... both show a user who is curiously unconcerned by the situation they are in and are seemingly detached from their apparent predicament. It really is strange as a record."
Davesco wrote: "Anyone who thinks about this for a second after watching 2-3 videos should come to the conclusion that this was a crime, not an unfortunate accident or them getting lost. Too many things do not add up in the getting lost scenario. Them getting lost on a trail that you basically can't get lost on. Dozens of people use it every day according to locals, I saw a video of it and it seems indeed impossible to lose your way there in broad daylight, so they would have had to intentionally venture into the jungle, but that seems highly unlikely because not only do I doubt they would have randomly gone deep into the jungle on a whim without an experienced guide, they also did not have the supplies for a long and hard hike through the thick jungle. I mean I know they were naive, but it is at least questionable to assume they were that stupid.
- Having a guide dog with them but supposedly still getting lost on that easy trail or venturing into the jungle without using the dog to find their way back. If the dog was indeed with them, he went back because someone scared it away.
- Police not looking for them for several days. I know this is Panama and people there suck, especially the corrupt police, but the amount of time waited when there was a clear indication that something went wrong seems too high even for central american bum standards.
- Their entire photo making behavior changing. Almost all of their photos before the night photos are either selfies, or photos of each other, some people just develop this habit, especially girls, but you wanna tell me they suddenly stopped making photos of themselves or each other entirely when they realized they were in danger? I am sure someone else took these photos, as it also explains all the attempts to get access to the phone. If they had done the photos they would have turned out differently, they also had no logical reason to delete a single photo from their phone in that situation. Also them doing dozens of pitch black photos when they were supposedly trying to save batteries is bullshit, as if they were trying to continue moving through tricky terrain during the dark night. If they really survived for so many days, they had to sleep at some point, I can see them successfully fighting against exhaustion on the first night, but no way they made it several days without using the night to sleep if they indeed survived for this long.
- Them supposedly surviving for 10+ days in the wild jungle despite having no survival skills or equipment with them. They would have died 2-3 days in tops and thats already very generous, jungle is a very hostile climate, they would have broken down quickly due to the heat, lack of food and especially water, walking non stop in this environment takes a ton of water to keep going, no way they managed to get enough for that. Also if they went walking around for many days, it is insanely unlikely that they never came across other hikers, Indigenous people who live in the area (like the one that supposedly found the backpack) or just found any type of civilization on accident. The search, when it was actually started, would have managed to find them if they were still alive, there were aerial searches and signals sent that would have gotten their attention, and one of the many people searching through the areas would have found them.
- the backpack was found at that location very close to a village, without a lot of signs of weather damage despite supposedly lying around in the open for weeks, with the bras they wore on some pictures and phones inside it. This makes zero sense and screams foul play, especially given that the backpacks distance from their starting point was ridiculously far, way too far to make it in that terrain with as little experience as these two had in traveling such a landscape, their lack of energy due to low food and one of them supposedly getting injured early. Their bones being scattered around at the same location, with traces of bleach being on them confirms it. It was often said one of them died earlier, but the bone fragments were found together, which makes no sense either. For me, everything screams murder. They were most likely stalked, maybe even hunted and then captured on their first day in the jungle. Maybe they were kept alive for a while, but then were killed and disposed of anyway as to not have any witnesses of the crimes most likely committed against them in their final hours. Everything else, the photos, the backpack, the bone fragments with the bleach, that was just the aftermath, probably was the intention to make it look like everything was a tragic accident."
David M. wrote about the back of the head photo of Kris' hair: "It was shocking when I saw it, but I don't believe we can see an actual face - the 'nose' is too far away from the 'mouth' for one thing, and while Kris had long hair it wasn't that much of a mass as to be able to be piled up on top like that. So I put it down to an optical illusion. It will remain unsettling however as once you 'see' it it can't be un-seen. If I were perfectly honest this picture is another example to me that adds weight to my doubts about this set of photographs, because like every other photo in the set it is so conveniently framed and deliberate in its purpose to show us everything-but-nothing that it bends my sense of credulity to the absolute limit. I mean what are the odds? What are the odds that Lisanne (or Kris?) would spend three hours taking snaps in the dark and not one of them shows anything of themselves, or anything useful or informative? It may well be as I say that they have been edited at some point after the fact, with one photo being deleted, possible photoshop work to hide certain details, and others (like this one) carefully cropped to remove its context and limit its information and usefulness. But looking at the photograph with a serious eye and assuming this is Kris with Lisanne the most likely scenario is that this indeed shows us the back of Kris' head, it may be a deliberate shot, or it may be that she got in the way of the intended shot, either way though this has to be the back of her head in extreme clos-up. Could that be the remains of a bun in the bottom right corner? It seems too dark for that, but I'm at a loss otherwise. Perhaps rather than dwell on the 'face' another line of reasoning I suggest is that this is the back of her head yes, that may be the remains of her bun in the bottom right corner, and just to the left of it, that white spot, could just be Kris' ear-studs catching the light of the flash, with her jawline appearing just below it.... It's a stretch yes, but just as valid a sight as the 'face'. Really though there is nothing to see or say with this image. Like the rest of them I can't put much stock in their weight as they raise far too many questions about how legitimate they are and to what extent they have been edited and worked on. And I have little doubt that they have been edited, missing Photograph #508 is no coincidence in this light.
I replied: "Well you may be right there and indeed do those open mouth/nostrils images only come up after long staring. They are pareidolia most likely, as Juan calls them. But there is something under that hair. In what could then be the neck instead of vertical face with open mouth and nostrils. A dark spot under the hair, without a doubt. Someone suggested it could be a wound from a stem gun type of injury? Is it a wound you think, instead of just a shadow? Another suggestion that keeps coming back is that in the bottom right corner, some darker hair can be seen. Either it is from Kris and from the back of her neck where the hair can look darker, or many people have suggested it may be the hair from Lisanne, which was more light brown-ish. It is indeed so that this is just another of those photos which appear to show a lot at first glance, but then flourish mostly in vagueness and mystery. It makes no sense to me why it would be made by Lisanne; it is not an accidental photo however because it is a sharp photo, not a blurred one taken while moving the camera about. Perhaps it could even be one of many 'fill up photos', possibly because more than one photo was permanently deleted (not just photo 509 therefore), which had to be filled up with photo after photo showing nothing but the hint of two girls lost in wilderness? Oh and I keep wondering how it is possible for the hair to look so clean and so dry after 8 days and nights in the wilderness? No dirt or tree branches in it, not wet from the rain, not even too messed up in structure. Its bizarre when you think of the Lost in the Wild circumstances she was supposedly going through for over a week by then."
David M. replied: "I don't see anything like a wound no, but I do agree that there are little hints of 'something'. Those little white areas that I was wondering might be her ear-stud are not looking like natural light reflection from her hair for example, and neither perhaps are the little white areas that we see as 'teeth' any light bounce-back from her hair either, but apart from her ear-stud I have no other ideas what they might be. One good frame of reference I suggest however is to look at the close-up of Lisanne and Kris taken back on the mirador peak, with them both smiling into the camera. It acts as a very good demonstration and frame of reference as to how Kris' hair catches and deals with the light, and shows off as different colours and shades as a result. Despite the bright light of the sun her hair still shows as dark when not catching the direct light from above and only reflects the light at certain angles where the light is falling on it directly. It's a useful comparison to look at when trying to get anything out of this image here on the 8th April... for instance although the 'bun' in the bottom right corner looks too dark and odd in this picture, when you look to the Mirador photo as a reference it actually isn't necessarily all that unnatural at all. If her hair doesn't catch the direct light of either Sun or a flash it does indeed turn dark like that. And the photograph on the 8th has the flash focused naturally on the left-hand side rather than the right, so this is one possible explanation for that strange dark 'bun' and its oddness. I refer to it as a 'bun' by the way as I don't have any other idea as to what it could be otherwise. The hair is being wrapped around something, there is also the hint of something just under it, something artificial. The image does such strange things in that extreme bottom-right of the picture though that if you look closely it suggests the possibility of crude photoshopping to cover something over - the picture just disappears into such indistinct smeared murk, which is at direct odds with the clarity of the photograph as a whole. But like every other photograph in the set this one is far too convenient in its framing, its complete lack of any context or information. It's frustratingly too deliberate a shot and feels and looks as if cropped after the fact... how difficult is it to take a photograph, a set of pictures, that shows and tells nothing at all? Why bother to take such an extreme tight close-up of the back of your friends head and nothing else of her or yourself? It seems pointless to do. Imagine for a moment if you could draw backwards from that shot, pull back from this extreme close-up and try and imagine what you would see if you took two steps backwards. I have tried, and I draw a blank. I can't imagine what it is I might see if I drew backwards for a complete view. And Maybe that inability to guess what we might see is telling us something important... that we aren't meant to know what it is showing. I don't quite know what it is I am saying here but even with the enormous psychological and physical pressures of an eighth day lost in the wilderness like this these shots are just too calculated and well framed to be someone at the end of her limits and lost in despair and desperation. But perhaps as I suspect the truth of the matter is that what we are seeing is an edited version of events, the results of careful cropping and adjustment. Either way these photographs, unlike the phone records, don't really bear up to being worth the attention and scrutiny, as the evidence is there to show us that the record they held has been edited and manipulated to remove information and alter what was there originally. Somewhere, at some point between handed in to the Police and then being handed to the News outlet that broadcast them, is where the editing took place. And I do think it quite possible that this is the time and place that perhaps a back-up cache of the Camera contents was made by journalists and editorial, that perhaps somewhere there might be a disc or folder with the contents still as they were when the camera was accessed. It's a wishful hope, but not an impossible one.... someone at that news station, or in the police may have seen the set in their raw state, did anyone note that one photograph was missing? Or did the erasing take place after this point? Fascinating questions to think on, and possibly the answers might just be out there in Panama, if only someone was in the position to pursue and ask them. Either way though the set has been interfered with, edited. I have little doubt about that."
This local tour guide Ivan B. from Boquete made a photo on about the same spot as Kris did - but now on a cloudy day -and according to some he could be 'mimicking her pose'
It may just be one of those international poses which many people make; just like sticking your thumbs up. Some claim on forums that he stands just a few steps away from where Kris stood, as you can see in the short tree trunk. Some people think that he is mocking Kris here, others say he may goof around and make such poses naturally, unrelated to that photo of Kris which hardly no-one knew about back then anyway. By the way, this guy, Ivan B. was out there on April 5th 2014, looking for Kris and Lisanne.
"Scary! When I first heard about the El Pianista trail, it gave me shivers down my spine! Two girls (Lisanne Froon & Kris Kremers) lost their lives during this trail, when supposedly they got lost. What exactly happened is a mystery to this date. As Lisanne and Kris were from my home town, I wanted to do this hike even more to show my respect, despite all that could happen. The track was easy to navigate and I nowhere felt unsafe. The hike was actually very beautiful, besides the uncomfortable feeling I had about what had happened here 5 years ago. As I already reached the summit after 1,5 hours of hiking I spotted a memorial that was placed to remember the girls. To this day, there now is a sign that says not to walk further, as it's dangerous to continue. Despite all the horrors this Forrest holds, and me being curious, I went past the sign. As I descended more down along the muddy road it started to rain heavily, as from that moment, and with the story of the girls in the back of my mind, I decided it would be too risky to continue and turned back from hence I came. All by all it's still a mystery what happened, but I can say this hike gave me the shivers all the way."
Michael K. replied to Ricks post: "You don't know me, but I knew Lisanne. I've been working on this case for a while. I don't know how much research you've done in advance, but in this area there is probably a serial killer at work. In addition to these two girls, several tourists were found dead. And according to local residents in that area, more than 20 people were killed. Many suspect that a 'much too friendly tour guide' has something to do with it. Good job of you though! But I don't know how prepared you are .. Just .. don't make the same mistake. Expect the unexpected in such a country, but don't let it blind you to have fun. Good luck, have fun!"
Rick replied: "Hey Michael, how interesting to read. I did look up a few things on the internet before I did this hike and came to the same conclusion. I also came across this specific tour guide during the hike, but at that moment I did not yet know who he was and that it was him. All in all very crazy. I hope I don't disrespect someone by sharing this story this way, I wanted to do the hike out of compassion for the girls. Hopefully you could give her loss a place."
Photos from Kris at a
Halloween party in 2011
3D images of Kris and Lisanne Photos from Zachary Womack
Zachary made up several 3D images from some of the pictures which Kris and Lisanne took on their trip. He explained to me that 3D photography relies on taking two pictures (one for each eye) and then blending them together in one image. 3D images can be useful as they provide depth information compared to a normal 2D image. Also, items that are in one image and not the other “pop” out making them easier to spot. Last, 2 images of poor quality can be “enhanced” in 3D allowing you see more than if looking at one image. Colored glasses, or other types of glasses are needed to give the 2D image a 3D appearance. For these images, you will need to get the “red blue” (Anaglyph type) glasses to view them. Zachary also explained that the 3D images are in no way perfect, as the girls were not trying to create them… He did the best he could given the angles and the fact that there was only a few that could be converted.
Thank you! Click on each photo to view it enlarged
Host family mother Miriam Guerra has stated to the Panamanian press at the time that Lisanne was not feeling good the day(s) before the Pianista hike. From her diary we know that she wasn't feeling good psychologically when she stayed in Boquete. And physically she was said to suffer from asthma-related respiratory symptoms, as well as a leg injury. This non-specified leg injury may have stemmed from her volleyball sport. But in this close-up from Lisanne's right foot for instance, taken the week prior to their Pianista hike (while in Bocas del Toro), you can see that Lisanne had a red swelling on the bridge of the foot. In her diary Lisanne confirmed also to have suffered from circulation problems due to the heat: "I have such thick legs. It must be from the heat that my feet look like rhino legs".
And these Dutch bloggers and tourists also went to Boquete; their blog details their experience with the Pianista Trail in July 2013 (so 3/4 year before Kris and Lisanne went there, and look which dog accompanied them)
July 20, 2013 (Translated from Dutch), bloggers are Thijs and Anique: "We arrive in Boquete mid-afternoon. We notice immediately that it is indeed cooler here. Through the accommodation of our choice, which is full, we arrive at a great hostel where we are the only ones. We continue with our culinary wizardry from the past weeks, and start cooking here as well. For the remainder of our stay we remain the only ones in the hostel, except for one night. In the evening we watch movies in a communal space. Good for our Spanish. The day after our arrival we make a walk through the pleasant, but otherwise not very special village. We also make a plan for the coming days, because over here it is more about activities in the area, than about Boquete town itself. We make a great hike, partly through meadows and mountains and we get company of a nice husky dog. Safer and convivial! However, we only hike to the point where the cloud forest takes over from the grasslands. Both in the hostel and on the way we are warned that tourists have been robbed on this trail in recent months. This, combined with the cloudy weather, makes us decide to [turn around earlier and] go back to the hostel."
Cody_nzealand also got slightly lost on the Pianista trail, and díd in fact video document it, here and here.
And this is a video that shows very clearly the start of the Pianista Trail
After 23 seconds you see the house of Oliva on the left.
After 1.04 minutes you see the garden of Martina.
After 2.32 minutes you see the bridge you have to cross according to Lonely Planet.
After 5.00 minutes you see a truck (with people).
And on the right another good video showing the Pianista Trail:
Excellent work from an online sleuth named Barbarossa170, who investigated the angle of the sun in the summit photosHere this disappearance case is discussed in detail. Barbarossa170 writes on May 8th 2020: "I worked in IT forensics in the past, supplying services for local as well as state law enforcement in my country. I have worked on digital evidence relating to cases ranging from copyright infringement to homicide. I'm not an accredited subject matter expert however (I worked under the supervision of several during my time in forensics though), do not represent any official forensic institution or law enforcement agency and haven't worked in the field for a while. None of what I am going to put forward here is based on a claim to authority in any case. You can research and recreate all of this yourselves. This is just to put my interest into this particular aspect of the case into perspective. In this case there has been ongoing discussion about the veracity of EXIF file data (data embedded in images on the womens' camera showing the time and date of the pictures taken). Discussion specifically focuses on the timeline as the EXIF data shows Kris and Lisanne on a mountain summit at around 1300h local time when several eye witnesses place them in the village where they had been staying at that time, making it unlikely that they would have reached the summit before 1500h. The camera on which the pictures where found was missing for some time after the girls' disappearance, alongside their cellphones, only to be found by locals, contained in the women's backpack, in good condition, despite them allegedly having been "dragged to death" by a river. This opens up the possibility of the files having been tampered with to plant false evidence. The time the women reached the summit is of importance since it would put the first distress call they made at 1639h into perspective. The pertinent question being: was there enough time between them reaching the summit and the first distress call to make the hypothesis that they walked on for a long time after the summit and thus got lost at some point (more or less) likely. The official position of the Panamanian government as well as the Dutch investigators is that the EXIF data is correct. Various online sleuths have called this into question, in the case of the Panamanian officials with good reasons since the case was botched at every turn, with such enthusiasm in fact that one cannot help but think that they intentionally tanked the investigation.
When I first read this, I was taken aback at how much credence was given to the metadata given the camera may have been in the hands of the perpetrator for a long time. EXIF data on a camera/SD card can be easily manipulated given access to a computer and the willingness to research how to do it. It is by no means complicated at all. Added to this is the fact that one picture seems to have been securely deleted from the camera, which would not have been possible for the women to do but would have required the camera to be hooked up to a computer. The picture I looked at in particular is image IMG_499, showing Lisanne Froon on the summit. In the koudekaas blog I linked above, it is stated the experts determined the EXIF data to be correct and the picture to be taken around 1300h local time. I set out to see if I could replicate that result, especially since the blog calls the determination by experts into question and since there is no further information as to what exactly the experts did to determine the time of day retroactively. My methodology was as follows: I used a rendering engine commonly used in visual effects (Octane Render) to light a 3D model of a human. Octane Render has a so-called daylight model, which enables the user to input coordinates, date, time of day and GMT offset (for the local time zone). Thus, the user is able to accurately replicate lighting conditions of a clear sky at any given time anywhere on the planet.I used the following data;
Coordinates: 8.78024 | -82.441360
Date: 1st of April
GMT offset: -5
I then rotated the model so the lighting direction matched the photo (meaning Lisanne's rotation relative to the sun, not the sun's position) and input 1300h, 1400h as well as 1500h as the time of day. Here is the result. As you can see, the image most closely matching the pattern of light and shade on Lisanne's face and body, particularly the arm, is in fact the rendering with the setting of 1300h. The lighting pattern on the arm and the face changes drastically as the sun's position changes, the forehead receives much more light at both 1400h as well as 1500h and the angle and extent of the cast shadow of the head also changes noticeably.The conclusion to this analysis is that the Dutch investigators where in all likelihood correct in assuming that the time of day contained in the EXIF files was authentic. In fact they probably used similar methods to the ones I used to test their hypothesis.
There is a word to be said about the next photo, showing Kris Kremers standing at a similar spot but with much more diffuse lighting. There have been allegations that these photos were in fact completely "photoshopped", with the disparity in lighting between these photos as well as distortion often cited as evidence. Regarding the changing lighting conditions: every photographer will attest that this can happen very quickly. A cloud drifts in front of the sun and suddenly you don't have clear cast shadows anymore, only diffused light. The change of lighting can also be seen in the surroundings; less harsh shadows overall. As to the allegations that these photos are completely photoshopped (as in: the girls were pasted into the images) - Without the original files, no conclusive judgement can be made, but suffice it to say that photoshopping people into photos like this, especially with hair blowing the the wind, as is seen in IMG_499, is far from trivial. It would have taken a person with professional expertise in retouching to "fake" these photos. Personally, I see this option as very unlikely. There is an obvious drawback to this analysis: while it does show that the time of day contained in the EXIF data is most likely correct, we have no way of proving the date was not tampered with (meaning the pictures could have been taken a day before their vanishing, for instance). That being said, the Dutch investigators also had access to the data contained on the women's cellphones, including at least one picture taken on that day. If there had been a disparity between the date of that photo and the photos on the camera, it would have been noted in the investigation. Could the data contained on the cellphones have been tampered with as well? Technically yes, of course, but practically it would in fact require specialized hardware, software and extremely niche know-how to extract and the re-import the files. This hardware, manufactured by companies such as Cellebrite, is very expensive and only available to law enforcement, the military and intelligence services. The bottom line here is: the official timeline, placing the women at the summit at around 1300h is in all likelihood correct and the hypothesis that the EXIF files were tampered with in regards to date or time of day seems highly improbable."When asked in the comments below his post what Barbarossa170 thinks of the phone and camera use in this case, he brings up arguments which I have stressed as well all throughout these blog series on the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne, and he answers: "There usually is a single reason for such a bizarre array of evidence, clues and lack of data, and that is shoddy-beyond-belief police work. We're left to wonder about all of this because this whole case was botched so thoroughly. What sticks out to me most in terms of IT related issues is what in IT forensics is called the "pattern of usage" of the cellphones and the camera starting from the first distress call, which is highly unusual to put it mildly. People who get lost or in trouble at some point start to record videos, messages or write up texts in their cellphones. This was 2014, cell phone usage was not that different from today and the women were young and competent users. It is also really strange that only 112/911 was called, right from the start and all throughout the recorded cell phone activity. Does this indicate foul play, the perp perhaps making those calls? It might look like it, but the cellphones were in fact logged into with the correct PINs (until one wasn't anymore, usually this is taken to mean that Kris Kremers had become incapacitated somehow by that point in time). Could the perp have forced the women to give up their PINs so he could manipulate the cellphones, e.g. to erase data? Possibly, however, particularly in the case of erased data the Dutch forensic team would with 100% certainty have found traces of that. You can securely erase data from a PC if you know what you're doing, but data on your phone once deleted isn't really deleted at all until it gets overwritten (there are ways to secure delete on a phone but that requires specialized apps, the presence of which again would have been noted in the investigation). So either the women for some strange reason showed very unusual usage behaviour while they were in distress or the perp got them to give up their PINs to do nothing else but periodically call 112/911. Did the perp have insider knowledge about IT-forensics and knew he couldn't do much else besides dialling without leaving traces? Seems even more unlikely. Just bizarre.""Regarding the night time photos, again they are just bizarre. I keep using that word but it's just a perfect fit for all of this.. The only time I've ever seen something vaguely similar is when I examined cameras used by a person suffering from mental illness. They were taking pictures in their dark basement, hundreds of them in fact, showing nothing in particular. Some of the pictures in this case do show something however (hair, the little twig contraption with the red material, the paper/receipts arranged on the floor) but all of them seem to be shot in such a way that it's impossible surmise what is really happening. That not one out of 90 pictures clearly shows, for example, the SOS written in paper (which is the prevailing theory) is just bizarre, yet again. Now, I wasn't a police officer or criminal investigator, I only worked in tech, but in all cases I had access to the corresponding case file and in some I spoke with the investigators about what they had been doing, so I have some experience with police procedure. Based on that second hand experience alone I can tell you that there is no way in hell that had this happened in North America or Europe, there wouldn't have been several people brought to the police station to question with a high degree of scrutiny and a lot of pressure applied via interrogation techniques. Beginning with all the eye witnesses, including the taxi driver, the restaurant owner and the school teachers, who place Kris and Lisanne in the village/ at the trail much later when in fact the photos show they were on the summit at around 1300h. They just let that go. Baffling. The often brought-up guide F. would undoubtedly been taken into investigative custody, due to his highly suspicious behaviour (going to the place of residence of two customers who didn't show up to a tour, whom he had allegedly never met before, entering their rooms and also inserting himself into the search effort with such enthusiasm. Not saying any of this is proof he is guilty, but it is more than enough to hold him and question him thoroughly). But Panama wasn't interested in clearing this up, and so we're left with this mess."Lossincasa replies: "The night photos, I said elsewhere, at first impression were as if taken by an animal. What you say, is how I rationalize it immediately after, a sick person or injured, confused etc. If it had happened earlier and not that eleventh(?) day of their ordeal it wouldn't have been as mysterious. There are a lot of days in between with no evidence at all. Great catch on the 911. Why not use or enter another number? Call their parents out of panic etc. I understand conserving battery, but when in panic or fear you tend to at least attempt something. All their possessions neatly placed in a bag is also highly suspicious. As if someone gathered everything idk and placed where water or elements couldn't harm. The police handled this extremely poorly."
About the discrepancy between image 499 and 500 in which the sky and shadow angle change considerably in the span of 6 seconds, he says: " I don't really see a huge red flag here. We don't see the patch of sky containing the sun (it's off-screen to the right), so we can make no conclusions if there were clouds there or not. What we do see is: diffuse light everywhere- including the foliage. If you compare 499 and 500, it's not just Kris who is lit with diffuse light, it's also the surroundings. So that much is consistent at least." "I'm also struggling to come up with a reason for a perp to mess with those daytime photos. The night time photos are another matter entirely. I'm not sure at all who took those and why." "Regarding the EXIF/ XMP data, it would be interesting to see the original forensics report from the Dutch investigators. This kind of nitty-gritty detail is often lost even on the police officers and prosecutors assigned to such cases. Given what we know from public sources the report should have clearly stated that there are anomalies in the data which cannot be explained without intervention with other means than just the camera, at which point all of the information gleaned from the data is potentially tainted and not to be trusted. Pretty much the only thing we can test as far as I can tell is the sun's position in the photos vs. the alleged time, as I did. They seem to have done that. It is possible that much of this digital mess was produced without bad intentions due to ineptitude of the Panamanian investigation. The way this usually works is that the drive containing the data (whether that's a hard drive, a flash drive, an SD card etc.) is backed up and all the digital investigation is then done on those copies to preserve the original state of the evidence. If Panamanian investigators were just completely inept as well as ill-equipped (meaning they didn't have forensic software) they may have simply plugged that SD-card into a PC and examined the files, perhaps even moved files to the PC's hard drive and back onto the card. At this point everything beyond what is actually shown in the images is pretty much completely unreliable. I've personally "lost" complete drives during forensic analysis, because of technical issues or human error. Not a problem in those cases since those were just copies, you just start over again, but if you don't have the technical know-how you can end up unintentionally destroying evidence."
Barbarossa170 acknowledges some other inconsistencies though, regarding the often changing hair styles of the girls and the appearing and disappearing 'bracelet' on Lisanne's wrist: "The hair observation is interesting. Both Kris and Lisanne have their hair done up at the beginning of the trip. At the summit, Kris has her hair open in all shots, then done up again in the subsequent shots until the last daytime photo (as you said of course). Lisanne has the hair done up in all summit photos except two, one of which is #499 (which I looked at) and doesn't appear in the pictures after the summit. This is from the blog, showing the second photo of Lisanne with open hair and #500, showing Kris. And this photo shows Kris standing in the same spot as Lisanne, with the same lighting conditions. I'm not sure what to make of this. I hadn't noticed this before. Could just be the girls letting their hair down for (some) pics and then doing it up again of course. But it somehow resonates with the arm rings/bracelets that Lisanne wears in the summit photos but not in the photos before, as if we might be looking at two separate sets of photos here somehow. I can see them letting their hair down/ doing it up again for sure. But they changed their hair style in the course of seconds for the different photos, especially on the summit." The 'bracelet' on Lisanne's wrist is probably the hair elastic (ponytail holder).(1) Here No 'bracelets' (=hairband), hair done up:
(2) 'bracelets' on both wrists, hair open:
(3) 'bracelets' on, hair done up:
Good posts from Barbarossa. The bracelet is a hair band and coincides with Lisanne's hair being loose or tied up. It's not so much a mystery what the 'bracelets' are exactly, that is clear. The question is more so why Lisanne had her hair up and down and up again within seconds, minutes, of rushing from one spot on the summit to another one for photos. It can be vanity, girls sometimes like their photos to be taken with their hair loose or the other way around. But I still believe this detail leaves the option open that the order of these photos has been messed with and we are looking at summit photos which were taken some time apart; one set when ascending the summit, another set from when they returned to the summit from the stream and were ready to descend back to Boquete. It remains to be seen if Barbarossa's light/shadow analysis is correct, but so far the only person who did something similar is a member of the Dutch forensics team. And we the public never saw those end results on paper or heard about the details. So I consider this a much welcomed second opinion. As you can read further down this part 2 blog post, there has been a swimming photo unearthed which shows Kris and Lisanne with some male youth, who both also died relatively shortly after. I do think that Kris and Lisanne turned around after photo 508 was taken and made some more photos on the summit (2nd time). This may also explain the different clouds in the summit photos, the many shots taken in super quick succession supposedly, the changing hair styles within 8 seconds. And then went back down the mountain. The missing photo 509 may therefore not so much show a person they met, but possibly also a location which would have completely discredited the official (Panamanian) reading that they kept walking into the jungle and got lost. In fact, they went back down, were seen by several witnesses around 16:00 looking for a taxi and they went swimming. The local youth they met there.. well they met their own different fates and I think they were kidnapped afterwards. But also keep in mind here that there is one more very important witness to mention: Kris' boyfriend spoke with her on Tuesday around 14:00 PANAMANA TIME. If they really were at the stream of photos 507 and 508 by then, they wouldn't have had cell tower reach, so how could Stefan call or text with her then? (The family says 'contact' but didn't specify what exact type of contact). They told this a few days after the disappearance, very early on, when memory was still very fresh about such details. Roelie even corrects Hans on it. To me that says they turned around and walked back. In theory it also leaves the door open for a 13:45 PM start of the trail, because up until the summit there is cell phone reception. But not after the summit. case, youtuber Missing Mysteries mentions something interesting
Missing Mysteries, June 14th 2019: "If you pause @ 12:32.... that is the exact spot where Kris was standing. Except the rock she was standing on is gone... quite literally where the stream is now cascading down.... that's where the rock was. In fact... all those big rocks are gone. Could that be from the river? Those rocks were pretty big... I don't see that river moving them. Its almost like someone wanted to redirect the stream. But why? I'm sure its not anything crazy and completely natural... just found it peculiar that those big ass rocks she was standing on are now gone.
I replied: "Well spotted!! You are right. I made photo comparisons of the photo of Kris in April 2014 and this stream in August 2014 when the Kremers family walked there. Wow, only a few months between them but there is more water and you are so right, where is the big rock where Kris stood on? Perhaps with the rain season starting late that year, by August the amount of rain flowing down had somehow created a new stream path. But how did it get rid of that large rock? Your guess is as good as mine! I have no clue how such a heavy rock could have moved by natural forces like that either... HERE and HERE are the original photos from Kris in that same stream.
I honestly don't know why some of the bigger stones would have been removed.. The rainy season did start from April onward and the video from the Kramers was shot in August of 2014, so perhaps a lot of rain had fallen, making the stream swell up. But would it have been able to dislodge some of the bigger stones? Who knows. The day after the girls went missing, there was also an earthquake. It had its epicenter more south, in David, but it was noticeable for the people in Boquete. Perhaps the earthquake was to blame? Another more far-fetched explanation could perhaps be that something happened at that point to Kris and Lisanne. And there was blood from one of the girls on one or two of those bigger (missing) rocks for instance, and it was disposed of by a 3rd party soon after photo 508 was taken? Seems really far-fetched though. Besides; the rock Kris was standing on would have been heavy, is someone really going to move it to confuse people? The missing rock isn't in the Answers for Kris video at all, so if someone moved it then they carried it completely away from the stream crossing. The key question would then be: why? It doesn't make sense for someone to move the rock, the photo of the stream crossing isn't crucial evidence or that picture would have been removed like 509. And aside from A. natural causes and B. human intervention, Jeremy S. also suggested to me a third possible option here (C): the Kremers were led on another path after the Mirador than the one Kris and Lisanne were following. He marked several routes down the Mirador, all passing the same stream, but at different locations. Could it be that the Kremers simply were led along another path and another stream crossing?
I have to say: for me the above photos from the Kremers' video and the photo 508 are shot at the same location, without a doubt. I cannot imagine that another route, passing the same stream but at a different location, could look also so alike to the original. I just cannot imagine that, I reckon the other stream passing will look different from this one. But by itself, it is an interesting proposition; that guide took them on another route. I just have never seen photo evidence of different trails to choose from on the Mirador... Everything everyone always writes and says (incl the Kremers) is that once you follow the path (clearly filmed by them) on the Mirador, it is one ongoing clear route. NO crossing paths, no ways to go left or right, no intersections; just a clear to follow trail, embedded in rocks and walls of stone initially and then easy to follow near the streams. So where would the family exactly gave been whisked off to an alternative route? And why has no blogger or writer (as far as I know then) reported and documented these alternative trails? Also to me the river crossing in the Kremers video is identical to the one pictured in photos 507 and 508. To assume that another trail passing the same stream further up or down the road, would look identical to it.. I find it too far fetched personally as long as there is no photo evidence to back it up. Below images of the alternative routes which could have theoretically have been taken, down the Mirador and past the first stream:
UPDATE: Juan mailed me a photo he took himself in the past, overlapping the photo 508 with a video still of the Answers for Kris video. And it does look to be the exact same crossing.... He first thought the same: that Kris' parents must have passed that stream on another route than the girls did. But he is now convinced it was the exact same crossing. That leaves us with the unexplained missing stones.
Update 2: see much more up to date footage of the streams behind the Mirador in my latest update blog post 4.
Video footage of two photo locations: #491 and #505
The first footage is taken before the summit and can be found here. The second footage is after the summit and can be found here. It looks like these are the two locations of both photos..
Aerial footage of Boquete and Alto Boquete, where Kris and Lisanne stayed with a host family
Matt looked more closely at the night photos
Chris from Imperfect Plan published his findings. I will summarize the gist of it for you here. I will add first that I know that these photos are the more eerie and fascinating part of the case for many people. I understand that, I watched the Blair Witch Project in the cinema at the time; these photos are appearing to us like potential messages from the grave. But I personally see them as red herrings. Staged photos, taken by someone other than Kris and Lisanne in an attempt to make it look like the girls were out in the jungle alone in the night of April 8th. I've written enough already in this blog about my own suspicions, but this is why I am not that keen on analyzing these photos without end. We have already established long ago that there is no head wound or blood clearly visible on the back of Kris' head. That it is not certain without a doubt where these photos were taken (in a gully/on top of a cliff looking down/on a rock along the river looking up?) and that we have no proof whatsoever of who took these photos. No selfies, no arm or hand from the photographer visible. No bag with belongings or a leg with shoe pictured from the girls. So all the hours and metres of text spent on the analysis of these photos may just be wasted energy to the amusement of whomever did make these photos. But because not much in this case is certain at the end of the day, and I may be wrong with my suspicions, here we go.
The quality of the photos
Matt looked at the night photos, numbered #510 to #609, which you can find in my part 3 blog. Going by the date and timestamp on the Canon Powershot SX270 HS digital camera, they were shot between 01:29 and 04:10 in the early morning of Tuesday April 8th. Of these 100 photos, only about 50 have been made public by Juan after leaks by an anonymous source in November of 2019. Matt observed that these photo files were damaged to some degree: most photos have been resized from their original resolution of 4000 x 3000 pixels. Matt writes that "the publicly available images were all resized to 1280 x 960 and 772 x 963". But just to be precise; a couple of photos that were taken on the summit are in fact 1600 pixels. For instance this one, photo #499, which Martijn Froon used as a background photo on his facebook. It has 1600 x 1200 pixels. This one is also 1600 x 1066 pixels and this one 1600 x 1205. And the last two photos of the day, #507 and #508, are also 1600 x 1200 pixels. But even then, they are unfortunately still a lot smaller than the original files. This is a problem with all the photos from the girls' memory card. They were mostly all published through media sources or leaks and all those photos were made smaller. And it is tricky to zoom in too much on them, therefore.
Nothing but darkness
Matt establishes that a lot of the night photos had their brightness and contrast enhanced in a straightforward manner before they were leaked. I assume this was done by the anonymous source, because in their original state many of the photos truly seemed to be mostly black. Matt writes that he thinks it was a truthful description by Dutch officials and the Dutch families to describe the night photos as nearly black: "This is also an explanation for the statements made by people that saw the original images. Apart from a few of the night photos, the original night photos would have been mostly black. Furthermore, it would be a fair to refer to even almost black pictures as “black” unless you are examining them meticulously, as is done here. Thus, I’d like to point out that the statement describing the night images as mostly black was truthful and not intended to be misleading." But what the investigators said was that the remaining night photos show mostly nothing, or 'nothing but darkness'. I probably have to disagree therefore. We're not talking about inexperienced people who just took a quick glance at the photos and came to this conclusion. The Dutch prosecution had investigated these photos at that point and this includes inspecting if changes in brightness and contrast could show more in the darker photos. They already knew there was information on these photos about rocks, about trees, about surroundings. But they had no intention of sharing them with the public, and thus they were downplayed. Which in itself is fine, but based on that non-correct statement, the discussion out on the internet has been warped before these other night pictures were leaked. We could have known all along that the person who took the photos was not running around, on the run or picturing her dead friend down a ravine. On top, the following photos were also included in the 'nothing but darkness' comment and these are not photos of nothing:
Matt confirms what Juan and I also concluded, that some of these leaked night photos are simply manipulated originals with the brightness adjusted. Nothing strange about that, whomever leaked these files had clearly already done his or her homework, as we all would have done. But some of the photo numbers could be incorrect, possibly because the source may have mixed some of them up while handling/working with these photos. Matt also notices that the camera bag on the photo of all the collected belongings of the girls seems not a good fit for the camera.
Then follows a table with all the night photos numbered below each other. There is a gap between known photos #511 and #541 (taken at respectively 01:30 and 01:37am) and Chris tries to fill in the hiatus by adding approximately 14 seconds to each photo in between. This elapse time is of course an estimation, as neither these photos themselves nor their real times are known. But it seems a reasonable estimation. The police report, as seen in the Een Vandaag tv program, only went as far as showing the data until photo 512. I'd want to go as far as saying that we also cannot even fully trust the official photo times and neither those of night photos 541-609. The source who leaked these photos could easily have added them or (theoretically) made them up. We have no certainty here. So, we also do not know if photos #512-#540 were taken for instance in clusters of quick succession, followed by a minute here or there when no photo was taken, or if the photographer indeed clicked systematically, every 14 seconds. But taking a photo with the flash on, as was the case here, would have required a minimum of 6,5 seconds per photo, Matt says. He also keeps the option open that no more photos were taken after #609 because the battery of the Canon camera ran out. But I don't think this could be the case. Because when the camera was found mid June, it was found in good functioning order and to still have normal battery function.
Camera temperature
Matt also writes: "The internal camera temperature is also recorded in the EXIF data and this temperature rose from 19C (ambient) to 34C after 331 images." Juan wrote me the temperature of the camera was around 24 degrees, not 34C. I couldn't see in his text where He found a 34C. degrees reading. Juan found these data:
Photo 491: 24 C. degrees.
Photo 493, 499, 500: 22 C. degrees
Photo 505: 25 C degrees, the peek
Photos 507, 508: 23 C. degrees
Photos 542, 550: 24 C. degrees
Juan added that the camera temperature is measured with a censor within the device and that it does not reflect the outside temperature. It could be 30 degrees during the day, or -10, and you will normally still see a 24 degrees camera temperature.
Photo overlay collage
Matt created an overlay of the night photos. A very interesting and pretty looking collage. He more or less digitally stacks a selection of the night images on top of each other, showing you how many of them overlap in the center. But also showing the parts where they do not overlap. He writes about this: "The images are simply overlaid so that common features show the most overlap. Perspective is not considered so that image that are to the sides are distorted. In order to create a perfect panorama, it would be necessary to stretch the images to correct for the perspective. Since there are not enough images and the angles they were taken under are too great makes this impossible." For each image there is a red frame that shows how the camera was held and a red dot that shows the center of each image. He also shows the process step by step in this video.
Location
Matt also writes: "Although many aspects of the official investigation are questionable, it appears that there’s little doubt that the images were taken in the “Boquete Area”. Followed by: "They may not have been taken near El Pianista trail though. We cannot be certain of the precise location.". Personally I have not seen a single piece of hard evidence for this. But this is one of the biggest and most important questions regarding those night photos. Where were they taken? None of these night photos have been claimed by someone to have been for a fact taken here or there. Everybody hoped this would happen once these other night photos came into the public domain, but nothing. No official has ever identified the location of the night photos with evidence, nobody has made photos of any location and put them next to our night photos to show they were from the same location. Many people think that these night pictures were taken somewhere else entirely. Some people seem to have made the suggestion that these photos were taken at the first river crossing behind the Pianista summit, a good amount of hours of walking up north. But all the evidence for this is a photo of a rock next to the river, which in my opinion looks just like any other rock of about that size over there. Regarding collages, I did something a bit different last year, placing these night photos together by matching edges. You can read about it in my part 2 blog. Also a video from me about how the same V-shaped tree can be seen in the majority of these photos, and a video about the returning typically shaped leaf which was first confused with a dead body.
Recreating the hair photo #580
Then follow some other observations, such as who could have possibly taken these photos (Lisanne, Kris, Kris and Lisanne, Someone else). No sublist of possibilities for Someone Else unfortunately. Matt tries to recreate the hair photo of Kris, pretending to be Kris herself. Wearing a beautiful wig :) In other words; can one take a selfie of one's own back of the head? Fast forward: no. "Having longer arms than Kris, being rested, warm and dry, not in a state of distress and having had time to think about how to take the picture and the issues that arise, e.g. how to aim. I was able to take the following image":
"I did not even manage to get the back of my head into the image." An interesting observation from Matt has to do with the location of the flash on the camera: "It is important to remember that the camera has the flash on the left side so the light, especially at close distance would come from the left and cast a shadow on everything on the right that is further away from the camera. This explains the lower right corner where the hair is darker and appears to have a different colour. This is caused by the flash being shadowed by the head." Matt thinks that photo #580 could have been an accident. That Kris may have been walking close by Lisanne and that she got in the way of Lisanne.... who was trying to make a 40th photo of the V-shaped tree? This is by far the most interesting photo of the series. But Matt himself also deems the accidental photo theory unlikely, because you'd need to focus to get such a sharp photo. In other words: you'd need to have intent. He also finds it astounding that Kris' hair is completely dry, with not a spec of dirt and not a single leaf or twig or anything in the hair. "At the time this image was taken Kris would have been outside for 7 days and 7 nights and it is hardly imaginable that her hair would be completely clean and dry. The only possible foreign object in the hair is in the upper left corner. This could be a leaf or torn piece of paper. It is difficult to say for sure due to the low image resolution. I do not think that it is hair." Mind you, he worked with a wig. But he tested the wig anyway outside in the rain. "I have taken the image below after 15 min. exposure to 40 – 70 mm of rain. It is very clearly visible that the hair is very wet after only 15 min." But not a hint of wetness on Kris' hair in the photo, after hours in the rain by then. The dark spots under Kris' hair, I have discussed them for lengths in part 2 of my blog series. Matt thinks they are shadows caused either by the flash or by two crossing hair strands. He does not believe that the spots are stab, bullet or other wounds, because there is no blood visible anywhere and no disturbance of adjacent tissue. He believes that we truly look at the back of Kris' head, not at a frontal with hair flipped over the face. Matt: "It is remarkable that the image is framed in the way to show just hair, which raises suspicion that something might have been cropped out that is not supposed to be visible." But he sees no evidence for this in the pixelation and dimensions of this photo (although we know that it is reduced in size, like all the other photos
Who took these photos
(Photo on the right is from Juan). As for Kris and Lisanne alternating the camera to take pictures in turn that night, Matt quite rightly comments that there is essentially no way to prove or disprove this, but that it seems unlikely to him because most images show similar compositions. But if someone other than Kris or Lisanne took those photos, then there is a good chance in Matt's opinion that he had bad intentions and may have acted in a fit of rage, confusion or mental illness. (I'd say; because he wasn't completely stupid and knew how easy it was to make some abstract photos of absolutely nothing of interest in a jungle, making it look like Kris and Lisanne took them). Matt disagrees: "For someone not to at least delete the photos or destroy the camera, the person would have to be extremely stupid or a psychopath. It is unlikely, given the circumstances, that the assailants were truly stupid enough to take photos of their crime, and then let the photos get away to the police, unless they are also very incompetent, and the camera got away inadvertently." Hmmm, no. I think he may be overlooking the reality that is glaringly staring us in the face. The photos were found and did they prove that a crime took place? Nope, exactly the reverse. Did anyone high up in the investigation teams even suspect that these photos were taken by a 3rd party - despite having zero visual evidence of who held that camera? Nope. I always find it interesting to read online how many people deem this very simple thing, a 3rd party zapping away some photos of the exact same location for over three hours, some sort of extreme psychopathic scenario. It's bloody simple and effective, folks. Nothing more and nothing less. Anyone of us could replicate that string of night photos, if we wanted to. And I think a couple of hours in the rain does not deter any tough Panamanian man either, not at all, and especially not when there is a potential jail sentence on the line. It rains more often than it does not in the cloud forest above the Pianista trail, and people absolutely don't huddle around the fire all day if it does rain there. And as for someone else finding that camera and having taken those pictures; passing on the chance to gain $30.000 dollars at that point in order to make not one accidental photos, not ten, but close to a hundred? And then dumping the camera and the bag with belongings that came with it near Alto Romero, again without cashing in on the reward money? Ludicrous. Matt concludes that Lisanne most likely took these photos.
White dots
As for the white dots, Matt believes they are either specks of rain or water drops from a waterfall, that are lit up in the flash of the camera. He tried to recreate the situation, going out at night in the rain (40-70 mm), picturing bushes and trees with the flash on. The photo was resized to 1280 x 960. Left photo is one of our night photos, right is Matt's result. His conclusion: "It is very apparent that the white objects look identical to those in the original images and we can concluded that the white objects are raindrops. I marked one dot with a red circle as it exhibits a phenomenon caused by the flash. It gives the drop an elongated shape and it points IN the direction of travel of the drop. This is a completely normal instance of flashing a moving object. Waterfall spray is less likely the culprit. Based on the location of the camera, pointing away from the edge of a ledge, we can conclude that the white dots in the original photos are rain, which must have been strong at times."
Red orbsSeveral images show red hexagon shaped “orbs” for example in image 585. Matt concluded that these orbs are caused by the flash hitting skin and reflecting back into the camera. It is possible that in our night photos, "the reflection was another person that stood close to the camera to the left of the photographer (the flash is on the left side of the lens) or it is possible that the red reflection is from the hand of the photographer who placed one hand in front of the flash either while holding the camera or while trying to shield the camera from rain with one hand. It is likely that in most cases the orbs are caused by fingers or a hand close to the flash and the lens." Very interesting. And bright blobs are caused by a skin coloured object close to the camera, Matt writes, when an out of focus object near the camera is lit up by the camera’s flash. In our photos they were exaggerated when then image’s brightness and contrast were increased with photo editing software.
The same happened in photo #576, as I in the past already illustrated with this gif: same photo, but two versions were leaked by the anonymous source. "By increasing brightness and contrast, it is possible that even an object in focus was overblown and therefore looks like an object that’s nearer and out of focus. Here the existing bright detail was totally overblown and turned into a bright white blob."
Photo 541
Matt looked more closely at this mysterious photo. It has been the subject of a lot of discussion online, because no one knows for sure if we are looking here at an over-lit close-up of Lisanne's (or Kris') jaw and cheek, or perhaps at a finger? Especially the presence of some strands of hair is fascinating. Is it scalp hair or the sort of fine hairs some men can have on their knuckles/ fingers? Matt adds another possibility: someone’s bare arm, where we see the elbow in the lower portion on the real image (but where do those hairs then belong to or come from?). Matt: "it is very likely that this image shows skin and hair that was 12 cm or closer from the lens of the camera unless the image is heavily modified and detail lost. However, I don’t believe this is the fact since the hair is not overblown." Matt tested if he can recreate the photo while using an artificial head "and the best I can do, with many tries, is this" And: "It took me several attempts to get the camera close enough to get this angle of view and I was essentially pushing the camera into the head and holding the hair out of the way. I could still not duplicate the original. And there was not even a "upper body" in the way since the dummy is only a head.." (Left the original night photo, right Matt's photo)
Not a bad result, I'd say! Thumbs up to the model also, a makeup dummy with wig and hair tied together in a pony tail. But Matt is critical: "The photo was taken from behind. The bright area is the “chin”. It is nearly impossible to get as close as necessary. And it would be even more difficult with a real person because their body would be in the way." He comes to a very good conclusion: "Photo 541 also shows one reoccurring problem that we see with many of the images…. even if something is visible, they show very little or it is not distinguishable exactly what they show. Although it is easy to take bad or blurry pictures, it is very difficult to take numerous obscure photos that show something but also show nothing at the same time." This is a conclusion which I have also discussed in the past with someone called David M. in the comment sections; why are all these photos so unclear? Why is it in their composition always just out of reach for us to see what we're really looking at? A few steps back before clicking the shutter and we would have known. Matt concludes that photo #541 most likely shows a head or arm or arm/shoulders, no more than 12 centimetres from the camera lens. The person was not laying on the ground (because otherwise the ground would have shown up in the pic) and the photo was taken accidentally. "The camera has a built in focus light that impressively illuminates objects and therefore, it is rather easy to take photos in the dark. Photo 541 demonstrates that the focus light was intentionally ignored in taking the photo. It must have been taken accidentally." (Of course I think this was the work of a 3rd party, who showed us just enough of a dead or incapacitated Lisanne to make us believe she was out there with Kris, alone, trying to survive).
Photo 542 shows water
Photo 550
Regarding photo 550 Matt thinks we are seeing the red plastic from a local shopping bag and that the markers are not likely intended to be a marker. Instead it may have been used to collect water (a bad attempt at this then) or to hit insects with. Or built out of boredom... But another person could not have put the thing there. Very unlikely, he believes. Anyway, we all have our own theories. I really enjoyed reading this piece and the photo recreating attempts were very interesting, thanks so much! Great initiative and very comprehensive research.
Regarding photo 550 Matt thinks we are seeing the red plastic from a local shopping bag and that the markers are not likely intended to be a marker. Instead it may have been used to collect water (a bad attempt at this then) or to hit insects with. Or built out of boredom... But another person could not have put the thing there. Very unlikely, he believes. Anyway, we all have our own theories. I really enjoyed reading this piece and the photo recreating attempts were very interesting, thanks so much! Great initiative and very comprehensive research.
Last bits and pieces-Matt thinks it most likely that the girls took the night photos in an attempt to signal someone. Search troops and helicopters were not out in the middle of the night, but perhaps they expected a house to be nearby or a farm, or even a search teams' camp.
-He thinks that the images must have been taken at the shore of a river.
-In image 550 is also a remarkable straight line visible. This line does appear to be man made and could be a cable for a money bridge or a cable that is installed for climbing or other leisure activities.
-Matt deems it unlikely that the night photos were cropped by someone.
-Matt deems it unlikely that the night photos were cropped by someone.
-The objects in the background of #590 are less than 30m away.
-He also sees no evidence for photo manipulation where things were added or erased from the photos.
-Matt deems it possible that more photos were deleted. "It is possible that unwanted images were deleted as it might have been done with image 509. This would require that there are gaps in the image numbers, like image 509 is missing or that all images were renumbered and the EXIF data edited. It is possible that images after image 609 were deleted. Considering that at least one image is missing, it is possible that more images were deleted."
Update: The night photos have by now almost completely lost their fascination for me. It was chilling to first see them. Then it was interesting to look at those newly leaked night photos last year and to discover that the 'body' was just a leaf which came back again and again in the photos. Or to make the first overlap collage and discover how the night photos were NOT taken while on the run, or even while moving. But I don't think much more can be extracted from them. Certainly not who took those photos. And the location has so far also proven to be too vague and generic to be discovered, going by the continued lack of hard evidence of the location of this spot. These night photos were not made by Kris and Lisanne in my opinion, so analyzing the work of a 3rd person for years on end is probably useless up until a certain point... They seem to have been made vague and dark and non-descriptive on purpose, by whomever took them.
I received some interesting observations from someone called Jeremy, who pointed me to a possible hiding of the dog Blue in one of the photos from April 1stHe found an image on a Russian forum on this disappearance case (when your computer allows you to auto-translate, it is very well readable when you're not speaking Russian), where forum members really studied photo #491, taken at 12:03 AM - according to the New Timeline. So after some meddling in photoshop with the photos brightness and contrast, people think they may have found, in the bottom right of the photo, the dog Blue. I have to say, I had to ask Jeremy for an outline of the dog, as I didn't see it myself, but after he kindly did I did see what he meant. The dog appears to be keeping himself cool in the shade, laying down with his mouth open or even his tongue hanging out. Of course, this may be like one of those infamous Rorschach tests; either you see 'it' (and once you do, you can not easily 'unsee' it), or you don't... So I may see things that really are just the equivalent of a suggestive ink dot, but is it possible that the black and white outline on Blue's face is visible here?
The colour pattern does roughly match the real colouring of Blue I think..? The white patches with the dark above. Of course, when you look long enough at something, your mind can see mostly anything in it. In the original photo I hadn't noticed a dog whatsoever and the tongue/mouth looked to me like the extension of a sunlit leaf. I truly saw nothing in the original, but did my own attempt to lit things up with some simple photoshop actions; adjusting brightness, contrast and such. I ended up with a photo with lots of chessboard type of patterns all over the place. Asked Juan about it, he said: that's due to the poor quality of the photo (which isn't the original from the girls' camera, but the photo we could all see through leaking of it in the local Panamanian media). This photo we have only has a small size: 1024x768. So once you zoom in or enlarge the photo, you can see the strangest stuff, according to Juan. But truth be told, once being pointed to this dog outline I find it just as hard as Jeremy does to not see the lighter and darker patches that could be the dogs fur markings, the eye sockets, the ears and one leg (dogs front left). Jeremy emphasized that it’s also the sort of behaviour dogs are prone to in warm weather; to lie down in the shade, sometimes with tongue hanging out, once the humans stop for a break or to take photos. Interestingly, if it is in fact the dog, then that implies the picture of Kris may have taken some time. The camera data does show that aside from this photo #491, another photo (#492) was taken within a minute. So they did stand still for a bit. And if the dog Blue was indeed with Kris and Lisanne on April 1st 2014, when they ascended the Pianista Trail, then that also tells us something perhaps about what may have happened to them; I don't believe that a known to be loyal dog like Blue, who features in several blog posts from tourists he accompanied on their own walk up there, would voluntarily leave Kris and Lisanne alone. He would more likely have been sent away then by them or by someone else, or got scared by something, or perhaps (theoretically) a relative of the owners of the dog - Giovanni and Doris from the Il Pianista restaurant at the start of the trail - 'may' perhaps have even been up there and took the dog back home (some locals linked him to a youth gang). I don't even exclude the possibility that Blue was never up there. Update: IP had insight into the police files and all the photos and confirmed that there is no Blue the dog visible in any of the photos on that camera from Kris and Lisanne.
I asked Juan about this photo #491, where Jeremy outlined the contours of a dog. He said: "I looked at the original photo 491, and I understand what and why he has outlined this. But I am afraid it is pareidolia [the tendency to interpret a vague stimulus as something known to the observer, such as seeing shapes in clouds, seeing faces in inanimate objects or abstract patterns]. Its something I am guilty of myself too at times: we have little to go by in this case, the photo resolutions are poor [we've got most of these photos through media leaks or publications and they down-scaled the photos size], so when you just glance long enough at a photo and blow the size up enough, you will find something. Your brains will make connections. If you look closely at the zoomed in photo 491, you see these patterns of black and white squares turn up all over the background of the photo. Yes, you can vaguely see a dogs outline, but then you see similar patterns all over the forest, criss-cross, only in the other cases they don't resemble a dog. Problem is that if there would really be a dog lying there, its outline would be more clear than this. It wouldn't be looking as vague as a ghost then. I think this is just coincidence and the result of too low a photo resolution. But it's normal to see all sorts of things when zooming in, as this case is lacking in material and we all desperately want to solve it. Something else however, I think, is the more than prominent photoshop suspicions of photo #499. There you really do see dark contours around the arm, seemingly something that was forgotten to be erased. Or Lisanne's face which looks blown up suddenly, as if it was stretched.
Hardinghaus and Nenner wrote about this topic: "Numerous theories are circulating on the internet that the day photos were manipulated by cropping, i.e. Kris and Lisanne were cut out of other pictures and inserted into the scene of the Pianista. This would at least be a conclusive explanation for the considerable discrepancies concerning the time of the hike and the girls' clothing. The theoretical possibility exists, and we also notice that certain areas appear strangely distorted and blurred, which is atypical for the camera used. This blurring does not appear in the photos of the girls taken before their hike to the Pianista Trail. On the contrary, the images always appear sharp and clear. So far, however, no one has been able to prove that cropping has been used. On the other hand, nobody has proven the opposite. We have confronted several experts with the question of whether the photos provide evidence of cropping and have not received a satisfactory answer. We were told in unison that it was highly unlikely, but that it could not be ruled out, as the overall quality of the images was too poor. However, the person who managed such a manipulation must have been a master. The unanimous opinion: It was either perfectly done or not all."
DISCLAIMER: The quality of many (not all) of the photos is poor. The reason for that, as I also understand it from Juan, is that most (not all) of the photos as we know them have not been officially released by the family, but instead have been leaked to the press. It was Panamanian media who printed these photos, always readjusted the size of the original photos therefore, and most are only 1024x768 in size nowadays. Lawyer Arrocha also gave a photo to a befriended journalist who posted it. And Dutch TV programs like 'Een Vandaag' and 'Break Free' also published some in their TV programs on this disappearance (whole series with subs can be seen in my main blog post on this case); there we had to work with screenshots from the broadcast in the case of some photos, which resulted in even worse quality photos. There is also a better photo here and there, one of Lisanne's relatives uploaded a large size photo of the girls on the summit as a facebook background photo and that one has a better resolution therefore. But the majority of the photos are too poor in quality to allow for proper zooming. Which... results in us seeing all sorts of strange things when zooming too much. It makes reliable analysis of the background impossible in most cases. The family hás been asked to publish all the original photos, to give the larger community online the opportunity to help 'detective' along, but they're not all that well-wishing towards 'us'. So it is not the camera's fault. The original photos have a decent good size. It is the result of these photos having been resized before publication (after leaking) and us having to do with these second hand versions. My verdict: there is no dog visible here. It's pareidolia. Question then: did his owners really say they saw Blue walk off with Kris and Lisanne? And if they did see that, how come there are no photos of the dog?- Just to be clear once more: I share on this blog all sorts of information on this case, including other people's theories. Just because I share them with you does not mean that I myself believe in each and every one. Try to keep in mind that this is a cold case currently and that not even the cause of death of Kris and Lisanne is known. Let alone what exactly happened. So any theory that could be theoretically true, I try to cover here.
I received more interesting observations and ideas from Jeremy. I will paraphrase some of it here
He wrote that nighttime pictures may really not have been taken at the second monkey bridge, as is assumed by some people. Or at any monkey bridge for that matter. J. doubts that their location was in fact by the rocks or on one of the riverbanks near one of the cable bridges, because to him, the specific patterns of rock eroding on the nighttime photos point more towards a place with consistent water erosion: for instance near a waterfall. J. looked at many pictures of the rocks surrounding the various cable bridges over the river: the rocks are right next to the crossing and whilst naturally higher than the river, these rocks are significantly above the river bank. Looking at these rocks, they are towering (in height) above the surrounding ground. So water erosion should only be seen on those rocks that are directly near the cable crossing and which thus catch water. [Or these high up rocks should be subjected to flooding regularly, perhaps, but the river had been very low and calm for a long time already however in the first week of April 2014 and the rain season had not yet started]. The rest is too far away and above the water to get that type of erosion. Honestly, I am not a biologist myself and I do not know if this is a correct assessment. Perhaps the markings on the rocks from the nighttime photos were created by mosses or after rainfall or whatever, I honestly don't know and it must be difficult to judge with certainty based on photos for many people. But I do like people who think outside the box and there may be truth to these assessments perhaps. So it's worth exploring a bit. - But, the nighttime pictures do show rock that is not only elevated by the look of it, but that also shows the effect of water erosion, J. thinks. Going in the direction of the drop off. He claims that the only type of place that has permanent erosion at the edge of a drop, are places surrounding waterfalls. Waterfalls also tend to have considerable drops offs, otherwise they'd just be rocky rivers rapids. So J. proposes the theory that the night pictures therefore weren't taken by a bridge, but by the edge of a waterfall. This may also explain another problem with the nighttime photos: One of the pictures is meant to show rain, even though the picture that covers the immediate area to its left shows no rain. [Same for the 'SOS' photos; supposedly taken on the same night, but there is no clear rain damage seen on the mirror or on the toilet paper - something which is usually clear to see, just try it yourself and spatter some water on toilet paper]. Of course, it could just be fine rain - even though the drops that light up in the flash look of a normal size. But maybe another possible explanation for this, J. proposes, is that it's actually water spray from a waterfall that lights up in the flash from the camera. Hence why you do see water drops against the dark background, but no real signs of water on the rocks and anything placed on top of them. This also means that the place where these night photos were taken does not necessarily have to be on top of a waterfall, but could also be (theoretically) around a mid point - a waterfall often has a series of levels. Then spray droplets could quite easily be in one picture and not in another, taken in the area immediately adjacent.
And another interesting aspect of the waterfall theory, is that often near waterfalls you can find caves. The lawyer of the Kremers family as well as the parents have long suggested that these photos could have been taken from a cave. (I don't see that myself in the photos however; they seem to have been taken outside I think, but it is true that despite the rain, there weren't many water drops on the actual camera lens in the night photos). Perhaps that could also explain why Lisanne's remains managed to stay intact for as long as they did; in late August 2014, a rolled up ball of skin from Lisanne was found after all, and turned out to be rather intact and in a very early stage of decomposition, just like her foot; this did not fit the time since death and the forensic specialist has stated that her remains must have been kept or stored therefore in a cool and dark place.... Indeed, caves generally are noticeably cooler than the local area. But even then we have the problem that her bones were found nowhere near a cave, and in fact near the hamlet of Alto Romero. There has been no information released however on the exact finding spot of the rolled up skin that belongs to Lisanne... The fact that many people have made the good point that the location of these cable bridges are far from desolate, reinforces this theory; the places near those monkey bridges have been searched and the girls were not found there. They are also daily crossed by people and have inhabited finca's nearby. No sign of the girls ever having walked around there or been looking for help there. Also, I am not convinced that the "give away" sign for the location of the nighttime photos are some cables in the background of the plastic wrapper photo. In the attached photos you can see where some people think those lines may be visible. I don't see them very clearly myself and even if they are there, they don't seem to match the direction which the cables make on photo. See my attached photo where I showed the cables direction with red arrows. None really match the very low (supposed) double lines in the nighttime photo. And none of the rocks appear to be near the point where these cables come together in reality. J. is also not convinced that the digital camera time and date stamp are 100% reliable, so doesn't rule out the option that these nighttime photos were not taken in the early hours of April 8th, but instead may (theoretically) also have been taken much sooner, even on the morning of the 2nd day already.
Waterfalls in the area So, J. wonders if there are many waterfalls in the area, and if so, whether or not they lie on the same main trail which the girls walked, or on a branch off the main one perhaps. Or perhaps there are more waterfalls in the area that are not on any trails, and only known to locals or guided groups. Waterfalls in the vicinity are the Three Waterfalls, also called The Lost Waterfalls. This chimes in with the messages I received from Sas, and which I already posted. I will combine these two updates therefore as there is a good overlap in information. So how far is the area of the Three Waterfalls (aka The Lost waterfalls), from the Il Pianista Trail? In this blog post, hikers describe it as follows: "Today we had something much more mellow in mind – we wanted to get to the “secret” waterfall that Susan and I had not seen yet, but the others in our group had been raving about. The trail begins at the Il Pianista Ristorante (outstanding Italian food, BTW) in the Alto Lino area just north of Boquete. You need to wade across the Rio Pianista after 200m, but then it’s a steady, leisurely incline for 2km before you start to climb a steeper, narrow path. Today, we were accompanied by two young guides, Jefferson and Miguel (as it happens, these cousins are nephews of our gardener, Sergio) – and it was a good thing, because finding the waterfall required us to get off the trail and take another cow path that leads into the cloud forest. We could not have found it on our own. Since we’re right in the middle of rainy season, it was a pretty muddy slog – but not too bad." - So part of the trail is indeed the same route that Kris and Lisanne took. But then you deviate (to the left on the map) and go in another direction. Still, it is technically very well possible that Kris and Lisanne wandered around in the vicinity of where their last normal photos were taken, and ended up near the hidden (and thus not that easy to find) waterfalls on day 8. And with all the talk about the night photos 'possibly' having been taken in a cave - which has never been identified further by the way - these waterfalls also are near a cave: "Upon your arrival to the second waterfall you can explore an underground cave and enjoy a picnic at the base of one of Boquete’s most exquisite waterfalls & rejuvenate yourself with an invigorating shower in the falling waters." Issue is that they are often visited by tourists, as well as by volunteers and search teams, ánd that they are only about 20 kilometres/15 minutes drive away from Boquete... So why wouldn't Kris and Lisanne have been found if they were holed up there?
So the waterfalls are in the vicinity, but not very close by. It's a big hike to the west. On a smaller map of the Il Pianista area, websleuth member Matteo_111 has discovered some side trails. See the map he made on the right here, with the side trails marked in red. We know already that you can reach the Lost Waterfalls by cow paths through the jungle, while starting at the Pianista Trail, as the cited blogger confirmed this. Matteo_111 may have marked this path on his map, or maybe the cow path is too small to find on satellite images online.. So it is possible to reach those waterfalls from the north-east, if you are desperate enough to get there. But it is not the official way to get there; these three waterfalls lie on private land and you normally need to sign in to enter the grounds. But maybe there is another way to reach the waterfalls without having to pass the main entrance and sign-in post, when going through the jungle and coming from the other side.. The Lost waterfalls also have a cave. At first glance it does not look like the nighttime photos though... Blogger Ian Mackenzie wrote about his hike to these waterfalls on August 2018: "My hike to find the “lost waterfalls” of Boquete began. A hike that would find me climbing up through thick jungle via a steep, muddy and rocky trail, occasionally aided by ropes. A hike that was undoubtedly one of the most taxing I’ve ever done. But one where the payoff of three beautiful waterfalls surrounded by jungle dripping with every hue of green imaginable was more than worth the effort. Located just outside Panama’s backpacker and ex-pat hub of Boquete up in the coffee-growing mountains of Chiriquí Province, the lost waterfalls aren’t really “lost” at all, of course. “Hidden waterfalls” would probably be a better description." He wrote about the first of the three waterfalls: "Directly ahead of the trail, a huge stone wall covered with foliage played host to a single-drop fall that plunged into a deep canyon below. I looked for a way down to its base for a closer look but that proved impossible. So instead, I made the most of my time alone to enjoy what seemed to me like a hypnotic slice of jungle paradise. Where the only sounds were the persistent calls of the forest and the plummeting river. A lost waterfall indeed. And then it was time to move on deeper into the jungle. The lung-busting steps that led up from the waterfall eventually brought me back on to the main trail. And that was by now on a distinctively upward trajectory."
And about the second waterfall he wrote: "So, after checking out a nearby cave, I took the rope-enabled trail to the top of the waterfall and stepped out on to the rocky precipice. Holding back the vertigo whilst triple-checking my footing on the slippery rocks, I stood there for a while to drink in the incredible view over the jungle canopy to distant Volcan Baru. Once again, without anybody else around, it felt as if I’d truly found something special. I’m sure that in the high season (between December and March) this spot wouldn’t be so tranquil. But right then, at that moment, it seemed like this jungle wilderness was just mine to discover." - So there is a cave, visitors can go in and April would be outside of the tourist season and possibly not very busy there... 
About the third waterfall Ian Mackenzie wrote: "Things started to get very serious when I set off again in search of Waterfall 3. This was by far the most challenging section of the trail and it’s one that many don’t even attempt. No wonder given the steep, muddy conditions and a not-so-obvious route at times. The jungle began to thicken and I became aware of the foliage closing in around me. Of particular concern was the warning I’d received about looking out for snakes in the trees rather than on the ground. So not only was I searching for firm ground to step on but my eyes were at the same time looking around for signs of slithery movement above. at last, I arrived at the end point of the trail and another stunning waterfall. [..] This time it was more about the sense of achievement in getting there rather than seeing the waterfall itself. It was also an opportune moment to rest and regain my strength while the spray from the falls provided a welcome cool down." Thanks for the information Ian and here you can see his great blog with lovely photos. He also uploaded two videos from the waterfalls, here they are:
And there is more... This blogger, Susan Saundercook, describes the road towards the entrance of the Three Waterfalls: "If you are renting a car, drive up the Bajo Mono loop, passing prime tourist sites: the rock climbing wall, the San Ramon waterfall and the abandoned castle (a beautiful, possibly haunted, home right next to the river). You'll get to a point in the road where you have to go left or right – turn right, following the Lost Waterfalls signs and drive for about 1 kilometre. Park on the side of the road and walk in. If you are taking a taxi up, let the driver know you want The Lost Waterfalls (there is another great trail in Bajo Mono called the Waterfall Trail, which can cause some confusion). Most of the taxi drivers know the owner of The Lost Waterfalls (either personally or by reputation) so if there seems to be some confusion, clarify by saying 'Wendy's Waterfalls'. The little buses you see in town (buses ruta urbana) also go up there." So, this abandoned castle, I had seen it come by on a youtube video already... Locals had gone to this eerie looking abandoned place, when out look for Kris and Lisanne, who were still missing at that point in time. They talked in Spanish to each other about how good a location this place would be to hide someone. Well, turns out it is right on the road to the Waterfalls! Could it be, theoretically, that the girls were kept in that solemn looking horror building? And managed to escape in the night of the 8th, make it to that touristic park and up that waterfall where they tried to hide? Covered by the natural sounds of the water? - Ok this is not the same video, I cannot find it back now, but this one does show this freakish abandoned place better than a photo. I think you can actually hear the noise of one of the waterfalls in the video.
So.... the Lost Waterfalls are on a private trail and on private property (maintained by Eliecer, a caretaker who lives on site with his family) and you are required to sign in and pay a fee. And the trail features three waterfalls in three different locations. The first two are more easily accessible, but the third one lies in more wild terrain and is the one for the more adventurous types. And the second waterfall features a cave to the left of the waterfall, a trail that allows you to hike up to the top of the waterfall and look down on its clear pool. I honestly don't know if this is the location of the nighttime photos... I am certainly not convinced that they were taken near one of the cable bridges, as I don't see any bridge lines in the background and I also don't think those supposed lines would follow the general direction of the wires as you can see them in photos. But it is also a matter of guessing and believing that the night photos' location is a waterfall. But let's play the thought experiment game again, and assume it is correct; the girls or someone else took those photos in the cave of Waterfall Two, or on top of/near one of the other waterfalls. How would that link to our information about Kris and Lisanne?
Possible Scenarios for the night time pictures There are 5 possible scenarios then, Jeremy elaborated further, and some are more likely than others in his opinion. Aside from the OBVIOUS scenario where the girls got lost and were out there alone, trying to notify search teams from afar. But aside from that obvious possibility, there are: 1) The Attackers take the photos to support the "lost in the jungle" theory.
2) The Attackers take them as part of a game with investigators, like a hidden message; the attackers know the girls and the location they've been held in are documented but they know that investigators will just see a black picture. The real location is documented in theory, but the photo settings are so poor that no photoshop specialist will be able to unveil them. It allows them to have a good laugh at the investigators whilst congratulating themselves at how clever they are.
3) The Attackers let the girls escape as part of a "fun" cat & mouse game and then take pictures of the game as it plays out.
4) One of the girls takes them as part of a brief escape*, knowing they can't outrun their attackers in the dark in an area she doesn't know, she hopes that the flashes might be seen by someone. She climbs to a high point above Kris (or above Lisanne depending on who is in the picture) and flashes until caught.
5) One of the girls attempts to sacrifice herself as part of an escape* hoping to draw all attention to her and leaving the other free to make a run for it.
Jeremy's opinion: It's entirely possible, assuming the night pictures happened on the 8th and not the morning of the 2nd, that the attackers weren't on location all the time (jobs, other commitments) but rather only there on an ad hoc basis. If the girls somehow managed to escape, but were entirely unsure where the attackers were in relation to themselves, they may well have opted to try using a sudden burst of activity, in the hope that something would be spotted, or in the case of the sacrifice theory, in the hope that one of them got away. Jeremy: "If the girls did escape, then the sad part of course is that on the left of this FBI enhanced photo you can see a light source, with what looks like a person holding it and almost directly behind the girl, slightly to the left, is a man with a hood I think, his lower part is obscured by foliage i.e. their escape failed totally. There may be another light source on the mid upper right". And Jeremy also has a theory about the night photo that shows sticks with red plastic attached to them: "The way illusionists/magicians work, is to get the attention focused on something specific, whilst something else is actually the important part. I wonder with this particular picture, whether or not we've been tricked. That we're focusing on what's in front of our nose rather than what we should be looking at, given that it's most likely one of the attackers taking the photo. The attackers are probably having a good laugh at us trying to work out the meaning whilst in the background waiting to be revealed might be the girls, the rest of the attackers, the location, who knows what. It's a pity we don't have access to a copy of the source photo data so we could do our own manipulations because I suspect that hidden in the background, waiting to be revealed, is something we need to see.
The big question is of course if this area has cell phone connectivity; can you call here with your mobile phones, yes or no. If the answer is yes then the chances of Kris and Lisanne having been here and freely using their own phones is smaller... But it would still be possible then that either this phone data was incorrect or meddled with, or even (theoretically) that someone else handled their phones and called from a cellar or from the jungle. And if Kris and Lisanne were indeed at the waterfall at any night, either the 8th or earlier, then they must have been there temporarily; perhaps during a nightly escape. Because these waterfalls are tourist attractions and they have been searched by volunteers and Sinaproc, plus there were tourists there regularly; possible every day. The girls would have been found if they were holed up there. Same for the big cave, people would have found them there I think. But perhaps there are some caves behind the waterfalls which we've not heard about? Seems unlikely, or else tourists would have written about them in the many blog posts available online on these waterfalls. But I do think it could still be possible that the girls encountered foul play, and that the perpetrators loved to toy around with not just Kris and Lisanne, but also with police and everyone else investigating. If so, they must have a right laugh about all the videos and blog posts still coming out, seriously discussing their false leads. And the suggestion from Jeremy that one of the girls may have sacrificed herself to give the other a chance is original. I'd never thought of that yet. It is hard to explain those 90 nighttime photos, taken over just less than three hours in the middle of the night. Could that perhaps be a possible explanation for them? But in the end their bones were found more or less in the same area, near Alto Romero. There is no doubt that they either died in the same area, or these few bones were thrown out in the same area. But Lisanne's remains had a peculiarly slow decomposition rate; flesh and skin still on the foot, a rolled up ball of skin from her shin bone was found, still intact and with maggots. This was found at the end of August and it did not match a 5 month deceased state. Whereas Kris' bones were bleached and looking like they'd been out there for years instead of 9 weeks. May this mean that Lisanne died much later than Kris? Its remarkable that intact skin from Lisanne was found at the end of August. Either she had not been dead long, or her skin and bones had been stored in a dry cool place for a long time. For some poeple, all this points toward a 3rd parties involvement, while others think ti does not.
The Hidden Waterfall nearby
Then there is also a hidden waterfall, located closer to the last known location of Kris and Lisanne (the stream of photos 507 and 508). Here and here you can read blog posts about this waterfall. Perhaps the night pictures also look a little bit like the top of one of the big waterfalls? Which would be much nearer to their last known location... Shame there is no photo taken from the perspective of the top of the waterfall, so we can see what it looks like from above....
Sas wrote me: "I was looking on the internet and I was on this site called ailishinwonderland [since removed, Scarlet]. I think its from a woman that makes journals of her trips ..the photo that catches my eyes was this one: the type of rock does remind me of the photo in the Kris and Lisanne case. I don't say its the same spot, but the rock type looks in my honest opinion the same.. Maybe that woman on that website knows more about the location of the photo.." [..] "Because the 'looks' of the rock parts look to me quite the same kind as on one night photo. I think that night photo was taken from above, looking down. Where in that area are the same kind of rocks and views..? To be honest when I compare this with these photos, I see an open part in the bushes on the right side...on both pics.. (On the place where some people think there could be laying someone, mostly thought Kris). Could it be the same spot as on the night photo? I don't know..but the shape of the rocks, and those brow/pink dots (vegetation plants) on the rocks.. look to me the same. Even the rock on which the girl stands.. In the area next to her left foot, it has the same kind of carving as on the night photo.. The night photo was taken further to the right, and you see that shape from another perspective.. Those lines and carvings in the stone are almost like a signature or fingerprint of the stone." (Added is a photo of a woman standing on a rock overlooking one of the Lost Waterfalls).
I replied: "Ahh ok, yeh I understand what you mean. Hmm... The grey rock looks kind of comparable in colour and texture. Although similar looking rocks may be found all over Panama of course... But the night photo seems to have a lot more foliage, green plants etc around the edge? I think (?) that it also has a more gradual descend down, whereas the photo you shared has less green foliage and plants at the edge and shows a steeper decline in height perhaps? But its hard to say with certainty, because of the night versus daylight and the angle also of the photos. Ah yes I agree, the brown/pink dots principle on the grey stone is kind of similar. (Btw: I don't know how common such speckles are on all the other rocks in that region?) Indeed they must have taken the photo then at another part of the rock. But the more dense vegetation at the end of the rock of the night photo does seem different perhaps? Ah yes I understand what you mean with the lines and indentations in the rock making it like a personal marking of sorts. And the discolorations do indeed look a bit similar. Here the three waterfalls are on the map. Compared to the Il Pianista Trail (not a huge deviation and in the same area).
And there may be another waterfall
In fact, next to the small and narrow waterfall which the girls would have passed after the small stream where they took the last daytime photos #507 and #508, there is also another, larger waterfall beyond the Pianista summit. But it is hard to find. Is it possible that the girls deviated from the main path at some point to find this waterfall? And that they got lost along the way? Calista Hart wrote about the girls' disappearance in her blog:"In April my Spanish teacher told me that two young women had gone missing from the sister school in Boquete, Panama. They had left all of their belongings, and not told anyone where they were going that day. The last anyone saw of them they were talking to two strange men, making plans to see the waterfall." In this blog post, a description of how to get there is given, plus photos of the fall. This waterfall is considered the hidden one, as there is no official description of how to get there. "The Pianista really is a knockout, winding through meadows with stunning mountain vistas along the rushing Rio Pianista, and with an abundance of lush cloud forest vegetation. This trail goes up to the Continental Divide (a more ambitious hike that we did with a group last year), and if you’re especially adventurous, it can take you all the way to Bocas Del Toro on Panama’s Caribbean coast. (CAUTION: no one should EVER go beyond the Continental Divide without an experienced guide. Just Google “Dutch Girls in Panama.”) Today we had something much more mellow in mind – we wanted to get to the “secret” waterfall that Susan and I had not seen yet, but the others in our group had been raving about. The trail begins at the Il Pianista Ristorante (outstanding Italian food, BTW) in the Alto Lino area just north of Boquete. You need to wade across the Rio Pianista after 200m, but then it’s a steady, leisurely incline for 2km before you start to climb a steeper, narrow path. Today, we were accompanied by two young guides, Jefferson and Miguel (as it happens, these cousins are nephews of our gardener, Sergio) – and it was a good thing, because finding the waterfall required us to get off the trail and take another cow path that leads into the cloud forest. We could not have found it on our own. Since we’re right in the middle of rainy season, it was a pretty muddy slog – but not too bad."
In fact, next to the small and narrow waterfall which the girls would have passed after the small stream where they took the last daytime photos #507 and #508, there is also another, larger waterfall beyond the Pianista summit. But it is hard to find. Is it possible that the girls deviated from the main path at some point to find this waterfall? And that they got lost along the way? Calista Hart wrote about the girls' disappearance in her blog:"In April my Spanish teacher told me that two young women had gone missing from the sister school in Boquete, Panama. They had left all of their belongings, and not told anyone where they were going that day. The last anyone saw of them they were talking to two strange men, making plans to see the waterfall." In this blog post, a description of how to get there is given, plus photos of the fall. This waterfall is considered the hidden one, as there is no official description of how to get there. "The Pianista really is a knockout, winding through meadows with stunning mountain vistas along the rushing Rio Pianista, and with an abundance of lush cloud forest vegetation. This trail goes up to the Continental Divide (a more ambitious hike that we did with a group last year), and if you’re especially adventurous, it can take you all the way to Bocas Del Toro on Panama’s Caribbean coast. (CAUTION: no one should EVER go beyond the Continental Divide without an experienced guide. Just Google “Dutch Girls in Panama.”) Today we had something much more mellow in mind – we wanted to get to the “secret” waterfall that Susan and I had not seen yet, but the others in our group had been raving about. The trail begins at the Il Pianista Ristorante (outstanding Italian food, BTW) in the Alto Lino area just north of Boquete. You need to wade across the Rio Pianista after 200m, but then it’s a steady, leisurely incline for 2km before you start to climb a steeper, narrow path. Today, we were accompanied by two young guides, Jefferson and Miguel (as it happens, these cousins are nephews of our gardener, Sergio) – and it was a good thing, because finding the waterfall required us to get off the trail and take another cow path that leads into the cloud forest. We could not have found it on our own. Since we’re right in the middle of rainy season, it was a pretty muddy slog – but not too bad."
View of the Lost Waterfalls from above...
An interesting discussion on Websleuths about the different clouds in Lisanne's photos
Het Lichtpuntje wrote: "I know this is already discussed, but I would like to bring this up again, because in my opinion there is something not correct. This is a photo of the Mirador (see photo A. below). Taken by local guide P.. Lets compare the photo with both the photo's of Lisanne (photo B. and C. below). Let's compare all three photo's (photo D below) and you can see that the two photo's of Lisanne are a Panoramic photo. The mountain in Lisanne's photos is almost fitting except in the middle. But that's a little, tiny bit. In the photo beneath, the top of the mountain is not visible due to the cloudy weather, as you can see. So both photo's of Lisanne are made within 6 seconds of each other?? The photo data confirm that these photos were taken within a 6 seconds interval, in which Lisanne had to walk to another spot, with a different background, change her hair from swept over one shoulder to the other and then the camera had to be aimed right too, without a screen that allows you to see if you focused correctly. Also true that the difference of the sky/clouds seems like night and day. It's not a fluid motion, like the mountains in the background. The mountains, they fit perfectly. Could these photo's therefore have been made on different times of the day? Morning/afternoon/late afternoon. One on the way up and one on the way back? Or is this just the special effect the Continental Divide shows some days; clouds on one side and blue skies on another?
Photo A.
Photo B and C.
Photo D.
If it is true that the girls turned around and went back to the Mirador after taking photo 508, then by the time they started making their two emergency calls from 16:39 PM onward, they could then not be lost in the jungle... Instead they would have been on their way back, down the mountain already. Possibly already had reached the main road again, going back to Boquete. This then changes the possible reasons why they could have called emergency services. They wouldn't then have called because they lost their way beyond the Mirador. They also wouldn't have called because they had fallen off a cliff: the cliffs along the Pianista trail were combed through and descended by volunteers, Sinaproc and local guides in the subsequent days and there was no trace of the girls. In fact, this scenario would then reinforce the chance of them having been followed or taken by a third party. Because someone or something may then have forced them away from the same path they had taken to walk up the mountain.
Het lichtpuntje then continues: "This was the weather at that day, April 1st. You can see that at exactly 13.00 PM was the highest amount of cloud(s) 14%. Is this what we see in the left photo of Lisanne? And then we have the photo on the right with less clouds, from which we can see due the shadow/sun that is was approximately 13.00/14.00? Don't tell me now that the sky/clouds are the difference between Caribbean and Pacific. This is too much of a difference. Also the right photo of Lisanne......it looks like she is way bigger than at the left. Also her hair is at one photo on her right shoulder and the other her left shoulder. There are things that don't make sense. But the point is that within 6 seconds, there would have been no time for (new) settings; they used the same camera, the same sun... the same light.... Maybe the only difference is where the photographer is standing.
DutchTreat replied: "IMO there's no way that the 2 pictures of Kris were taken within 6 seconds. Some other observations I made: - Lisanne on the right looks a lot more 'sweaty' on her forehead. There is no way that the sky is that different within 6 seconds and literally divided by a vertical line. I think that when you look at the sun's position in the sky and the shadows cast on Lisanne's face/body where Lisanne is on the right, that it does not match the position in the sky on the picture with Lisanne on the left. If you would put the picture with Lisanne on the right and Kris on the right next to each other, there is NO WAY those two pics were made around the same time. Look at the sun's position/shadows on faces/bodies. To me it looks like the picture with Lisanne on the right is made at 13.00 PM. But I think the other 2 pictures were made much later. My guess is on their way BACK TO BOQUETE. And by the way, the resolution of the picture with Lisanne on the right has a different resolution/pixels than the others. How is that possible? If the sun is shining from the right upper corner in the pic on the right. It is IMPOSSIBLE that Lisanne's butt in the left picture is illuminated by the sun, while her front is shadowy."
Het Lichtpuntje replied: "Next photo.....same sky....same sun.....almost the same cloud(s)........how much time is there between the 2 photos?? I think not much, because of the cloud. So where are the sharp shadow lines at Kris?? The ones on Lisanne are clear. The sharp straight shadow line on her left arm (on the photo) looks still very strange to me. Next photo shows the clouds.
DutchTreat replied: "Kris' entire front and face should be covered with shadow, because she's completely standing with her back towards the sun. Baru, do you know how the sun moves during the day at the top of the Pianista summit? If it is a the right upper corner at 1.00 PM, at what time is it on the left side almost vertical?"
Matteo replied to Lichtpuntje: "All of this can be explained by looking at the position and angles from which the pictures were made. See comparison in this photo. In the three pictures, you can detect one plant. It is standing different towards its background. That indicates the direction from which the picture was taken. You can also notice the arrow marks at the horizon of the mountain rim. The horizon on the left picture of Lisanne stretches far more to the left (bow) than on the upper picture, the same goes for the right picture, but then to the right (bow). Considering the foreground, you should overlay the indicated same plant, but considering the background there is a part of the horizon / mountain rim not on the pictures. I split the pictures according to the background. So Kris AND Lisanne changed places in the 6 seconds between the pictures. Clouds are often very locally at the northern side of the CD as we know. The difference in angle is some 80 degrees I guess, so that makes it quite possible to have one sunny and one cloudy picture at almost the same time."
Het Lichtpuntje replied: "Well it's 6 seconds between the photo's and at the right photo there is much sunlight if you look at the bushes, leaves, shadow etc. The leaves are glowing in the sun in the right photo, you can see that very clearly. And then 6 seconds later at the left photo, where are the glowing leaves, where is the clear shadow on Lisanne..? It's all about the 6 seconds."
Het Lichtpuntje wrote: "I was only trying to explain that this photo and blue sky and abrupt clouds also look weird, but I believe this. And if I cut it in half, I still believe it. Like I said, this is 1 photo. The photo's of Lisanne are 2 photo's. You can fit them perfectly!
Chiatos replied: "I don't know what to think about this. Apparently, there isn't a gap between the 2 pics with Lisanne, but an overlap. You can deduce that by looking at the vegetation. So if we place the pics overlapping each other, then the clouds indeed do not coincide. I have also recognized the leaves and plants Matteo has pointed out. [..] Right photo: It seems as if the sunlight is perpendicular, so coming from straight up. Left photo: It seems as if the sunlight is coming from left. But: because Lisanne is leaning forward, she creates her own shade on her shirt with the upper part of her body. So actually, also here, the sunlight may also come from straight up? I'm not an expert in sunlight, but what I do see, is Lisanne's wrinkled shirt in both pics."
DutchTreat replied: "Regardless of the Lisanne on the left and Lisanne on the right picture. If you look at both Lisanne and Kris on the right, you cannot deny that there is something not right. Kris' entire front and face, should have been covered with shadow. Those two pictures cannot possibly have been made within 2 minutes time. It's more like 2,5 hours time difference. And what would be the implications of that ......."
Romijn replied: "The fact that it is the same plant IS important, because it makes clear that both pictures were take from a different angle, one in the east direction, the other to the south and that has a huge impact on the view and explains why on one picture we see a totally clouded sky and on the other an almost blue sky. You just should not put these pictures next to each other as if they were made in the same direction. It also explains why shadows and wind directions are different."
DutchTreat replied: "It does not explain why the sun is shining from the right upper corner on the picture with Lisanne on the right. And from the left upper corner, where Lisanne is on the left. The sun is at a fixed spot in the sky at a certain time of the day. The photographer cannot manipulate the sun's position. If the left side of a person is covered by shadow. The left side of that person will not suddenly be illuminated if the photographer takes an other angle/position.
Matteo replied: "Hi Lichtpuntje, Cameras do lie. Not deliberately of course. When you take a picture the camera measures the light and adapts to it, to make the best possible picture, all done by computer nowadays. When you turn and take another picture and the light is very different, the camera will create another optimum for the length of the opening of the lens and how far it is opened (diaphragm). You will notice that on the picture. This explains the big difference between the sunny and the cloudy picture of Lisanne. On the cloudy picture of Lisanne you see less contrast and the whole picture is lighter: the clouds are white and lighter than the blue air and everything is less sharp lined out. Even when you take a picture at the same spot but you capture less blue air or more dark corner, the light will change, and the camera adapts to less or more light. That is normal: With the picture of Kris it is more or less the same. Less blue air and Kris against a darker background makes her better visible in the picture. she is given more light by the camera. Lisanne at the same spot though, is taken against the clear sky. The picture suffers from contrast and Lisanne has much more contrast and shadow and less light. It must have been like this, so 6 seconds were no problem at all: Try some of these things when you take pictures next time.
DutchTreat replied: "[QUOTE: danyoromijn said: "On the picture where Lisanne stands on the left (with thumbs up), I actually get the impression the sun shines from up and a bit right, since the shadow of her arm on her t-shirt stretches out a bit to the left. When the sun would shine from the left side, the shadow would stretch out more to the right of her elbow.] - "You're wrong. Look at the picture where Lisanne is standing on the left. Look at the thumb of her right hand. It casts a shadow on the fingers of her right hand. That is impossible if the sun would be shining from the same position as in the picture with Lisanne on the right. These pictures were NOT taken within six seconds. There should really an expert be looking at these pictures. Because if it can be established that this is not possible, it would also mean that the data of the pictures has been tampered with..... and we all know what that would mean."
Danyo Romijn replied: "I see what you mean with the thumb, but the shadow formed, looking as if it goes from up-left to right-down is caused by the shape and the direction of the thumb itself. On this picture the sun comes from up and a bit towards the photographer. The sun never could come from the 'left' side, because there is the north and the sun never shines from the north. It just is a bit difficult with those shadows and directions, mainly because the sun at this place on earth and a bit after noon shines from up (and not that obvious from the south)."
IceT wrote: "Here is another picture that illustrates your point. It shows tendrils of thinner clouds extending across the Continental Divide from the thicker masses of clouds north of the Divide. A photo taken from the Mirador toward the SE could show small individual clouds in a mostly clear sky, while a photo aimed 90 degrees to the left could show a much thicker cloud cover north of the Divide. This seems to be what we see in the photos of Kris and Lisanne."
Also, look closely at the shadows of the sun in the different photos on the summit
which were all taken within the same 15 minutes according to their digital camera data. In some there are strong shadows on Lisanne's body, while there is hardly a shadow visible on Kris. Is it certain that these photos were all taken at 13:00, going by the angle of the sun? But then again; check out the aerial photo below; it clearly shows the way in which cloud packs can close in suddenly over there:
Looking at the blue sky versus the cloudy sky in the background of the new Pianista photos, are these new photos perhaps indicating that the girls did in fact make it back down the Pianista Trail? Photos from the way up (sunny and blue skies), versus photos from the way down (cloudy)?
These summit photos were all taken within the same 15 minutes according to their digital camera data. Firstly there are the difference in sky in some of these photos. Although I must admit here that both the cloudy sky photos were taken facing the 'other' side the the Mirador. Possibly there was a very extreme division line during those 15 minutes between cloudy on one side of the mountain and sunny/blue skies on the other? I don't know, the contrast is quite extreme I think. Then secondly there is also the other matter, that in some there are strong shadows on Lisanne's body, while there is hardly a shadow visible on Kris. Is it certain that these photos were all taken at 13:00, going by the angle of the sun?
If it is true that the girls turned around and went back to the Mirador after taking photo 508, then by the time they started making their two emergency calls from 16:39 PM onward, they could then not be lost in the jungle... Instead they would have been well on their way back, down the mountain already. More likely they would have been already down at the start of the trail by 15:30, and they may have been already at the swimming location of the new photo by 16:39 PM. This then changes the possible reasons why they could have called emergency services. They wouldn't then have called because they lost their way beyond the Mirador. They also wouldn't have called because they had fallen in a cliff, or drowned in the river, as Betzaida Pitti keeps holding onto. In fact, this scenario would then reinforce the chance of them having been followed or taken by a third party.
Or could it be the other way, and were the cloudy photos taken on the way up, and the blue skies from their way back down again to Boquete? This was the weather at that day, April 1st. You can see that at exactly 13.00 PM was the highest amount of cloud(s) 14%. Is this what we see in the left photo of Lisanne? And then we have the photo on the right with less clouds, from which we can see due the shadow/sun that is was approximately 13.00/14.00? (Notice also by the way how on the right photo of Lisanne, it looks like she is way bigger than at the left). Also notice how Lisanne's hair is at one photo flipped over on her right shoulder, and in the other photo it falls over her left shoulder. And in a third photo she has her hair tied back. Supposedly those photos were made within 6 seconds of one another. On different sides of the mountain. Lisanne on the right also looks more 'sweaty' on her forehead. So maybe they are in fact taken at very different times; one on the ascend, the other on the descend again, after having walked to the little stream from photos 507 and 508. Also, there seems to be quite a different sun angle present in these different Mirador photos. Sometimes the suns position on the faces and bodies of the girls are more diagonal, coming from straight above, other times there are more shadows and a different angle of the sun. Some seem to have been indeed taken around 13:00 PM, but others may have been taken later in the afternoon, in fact. My guess is on their way BACK TO BOQUETE. I mean, these two pictures below of Lisanne and Kris have officially been made within a 2 minute time-frame. It looks more like a 2,5 hour difference though, going by the extreme difference in shadow on the face and body. Shouldn't Kris' entire front and face have been covered with areas of shadow? By the way, in none of the other photos of the girls, taken in those precious week of holidaying, are the ever photographed with their thumbs up like that. Could this be an indication that they were not alone on that summit?
CLOUDY
CLEAR
HALF CLEAR
HALF CLOUDY
Although this photo from a day or two before their hike does show that there can be tight cloud formations hanging over the mountains, right next to blue patches of sky:
Juan made an excellent photo collage of the known photos, picturing together the scene on the Mirador and showing (in my opinion) that these clouded skies were taken at a different time of day than the clear sky photos. It also shows I think that the girls were not facing the (opposite) other side of the mountain in the cloudy photos:
Pictures of Casa Verde Hostel
& Guesthouse (Bocas del Toro):
*****************
I like to repeat one more time what issues I keep having with the Getting Lost scenario - pls skip when you are utterly tired of this: things nobody seems willing or able to solidly explain and rebut: the official version of events is that they either fell into a river and drowned, or fell in a ravine of sorts and couldn't get out, OR were eaten by wild animals. Pick your favourite and then try to explain how that makes sense considering that:
1. Ravine: assume they slid off a steep slope, and this slope may have been too steep for them to climb back up on without any gear and they were stuck. Firstly; this Pianista trail they were following was well kept, clear to follow, and no-one has to date fallen in a ravine there. So for this to happen to one of the girls, on a clear sunny day without rain or mud on the road, is hard to imagine. But for two of them, both, to fall in a ravine on this beautiful day of April 1st seems near impossible. But what if.. Lets follow this highly unlikely scenario; they both fell in a ravine: going by the dates on their pictures and mobile phones use, at least one of them must have been stuck there then for at least 11 days. No heavy rain fall was washing them out there in this first week as there was hardly any rain, only short showers: checking statistics about the local weather in Boquete that week, only on April 3rd, around 17:00 some rain started, which lasted throughout the next day until the evening/night of April 4th. Then it took until April 8th for more rain to fall, which only lasted a few hours in the late afternoon/ early evening. However, the place where some steep edges are, lie on the Boquete side of the Pianista trail (so the side very frequently walked by people), and close to the summit of the Pianista trail; NOT after the Pianista summit. If they had fallen there then rescue teams and searchers would definitely have found them. Sinaproc and volunteers combed through the entire jungle there, multiple times (especially the trail of the Pianista itself), and were certain the girls weren't there. They even scaled down on ropes down several slopes near the main trail, as was shown on TV camera. The spots that truly have some height are near the summit of the Pianista trail, and in this Dutch TV program, local guide P. even explains that they descended attached to long ropes down these spots to look for them. Then Dutch forensic investigator Frank van de Goot stated that he suspected that the girls fell down a ravine somewhere after the summit, but before the small stream pictured in photo #508. Yet, there is no place there where you can fall and remain unnoticed. The road is also mostly stuck between rock walls, has no cliffs or anything really to fall into. When Frank van de Goot, who led the Dutch forensics team in this case, hypothesized that the girls must have fallen into a ravine of 30 to 40 metres deep at the start of the Pianista Trail (and this being the only place where they could have fallen off the mountain; at the start of the Pianista trail), he offered no proof. Instead, this claim raises questions: why have there never been pictures released of this supposed spot? Why no proof of the underground there showing any signs of 2 people falling down there from 40 metres high up? SINAPROC are specialized in these things and regularly find missing hikers, they looked for trails and clues of a fall everywhere along that route and found nothing. They went down with ropes for no less than 500 metre in crevasses along the Pianista trail, so they combed the place out. And even stated so on TV; the girls were not there according to their findings. A fall there would have left traces and those first days after their disappearance it was dry and sunny, not rainy so no trails could go missing. Why would both have fallen there? No clear signs of a fall were found on the shoes and the backpack either. Contents of the bag were in good order, as we could all see for ourselves. There were only two minor tears in the backpack, caused by 'a sharp edge' but they were not consistent with the type of dragging damage you usually see when someone slides down a rock wall for 30 or 40 metres. Not a scratch on the sunglasses that were carried inside the backpack. But let's assume theoretically they fell in a ravine: why then wouldn't they have been found there by the onslaught of rescue groups and volunteers and army and dogs? They would have heard them so why not call out for help? Not to mention the rescue dogs easily being able to smell them down there [if this was a cliff near the Pianista trail, which is said to have been the most prevalent spot with slopes]. The girls were for many days seemingly capable of using their phones, attempting phone calls or looking for reception; so they were conscious and would have heard the rescue teams, dogs and all that came with it if they had fallen close to the main trail. There was a big reward for the person who found them so there was extra incentive to find them. Yet, nobody did..
And why wouldn't they have been able to call from there, given that that area has confirmed mobile phone reception? And even if this scenario is true: how did their backpack end up from the bottom of a ravine into the river, 14 walking hours up north, without any decomposing body fat on it. No blood, and most of all; everything in perfect order? You'd not think that two cheap sunglasses would come out of a 40 metre fall without a single scratch, yet these girls wére badly broken up from it. No damage to the bag for instance as you would expect to see it as a result of sliding down a stone wall or muddy ravine slope. And how could their (very few) remains been scattered over a huge area along riverbeds and behind trees, so many more kilometres up north and nowhere near the bottom of a ravine? Some north of the backpack, some south of it. Animals there are not eating bones and wouldn't drag a foot or a pelvic bone for many kilometres, and they are ruled out anyway as the bones found had no microscopic teeth or claw marks; they were completely clean of significant markings. Besides, Kris' shorts were also found near the river and their bras were in their backpack; would they have fallen down a ravine naked then? A pelvis broken in half and a severely broken foot would normally have prevented them from climbing out of a ravine themselves and moving 14 walking hours up north, away from civilization. Just like Kris' broken pelvis would make it probably unlikely that she or Lisanne would have taken off Kris' very tight jeans shorts. When you are injured, you stay put (and if they had done that, they would have normally been found on or near that main trail). But large scores of rescue workers combed through the entire jungle there, multiple times, especially the trail of the Pianista itself, and were certain the girls weren't there.
2. River: at that time (first week of April 2014) the rivers were rather shallow and not wildly fast flowing yet. It had been exceptionally dry at the time and the rain season had not yet started. From what was pictured and seen on news reports at the time, the river im sprache was not standing very high, and it wasn't very fast flowing at all. This in contrast with the rescue/body cam videos appearing much later, at a time where it hád been raining and the water wás now running much more wild. But this is not representative of the week when Kris and Lisanne had gone missing. Although the current is in general said to be strong, making it difficult to get back out once you fall in at the wrong place. But the girls could swim very well and the river wasn't that large that they couldn't make it to shore without drowning I think. It also has many rocks crisscrossing within the water, where you can hold onto. And although those monkey bridges are feeble, you don't cross them together at the same time; only one person can go at a time, so the chance that both girls fell into the river there at the same time seems also very small. Besides, then their backpack would have gotten wet, not to say soaked. If a river is said to be powerful enough to tear apart dead bodies, it can't leave a cheap lycra backpack floating in it for kilometres on end hardly damaged. Also, along the river near the monkey bridges are local people living; why wouldn't they go to them for help, instead of passing a monkey bridge and river, moving even further away from the Boquete region where they had to go? And if they were lost, why would they cross rivers anyway, leading them further away from their starting point, further into the wilderness? They took a photo of Boquete lying behind them on their way up the Pianista; they knew that Boquete was south of them, not north. So with no marks found on the few bones they did find, no animal jaws and teeth could have torn the foot off, in Lisanne's case, but there were also no signs of the river and rocks breaking up the bodies or damaging them with indentations and markings, as specialists would expect if the bodies and belongings had truly been bouncing over rocks and swept through wild rivers. And how did Lisanne's severed foot end up almost under the root of a tree on land, if she was floating in it?
3. Animals: (photo left the amount of registered snake bites) The black panther and puma are rare sightings there and shy; they don't go out to look for human contact. A jungle specialist from the region has wandered that jungle for 40 years and never ran into one, he said they don't even live in the Boquete region. Most bigger wild animals have long retracted to the deeper jungle, further away, due to the many humans walking through this part of forest. This travel blogger went to the same area and wrote about it: "We never saw a mammal and heard monkeys only once, quite different from our experience in other tropical forests." And even if we wildly assume a big cat attacked, them then the bones found would have had bite- or drag marks and their clothes wouldn't have been found the way they were; the jeans shorts from Kris would have had blood on them or been more extensively ripped or damaged (it also had no blood or other bodily fluids on it). The backpack was also not torn or damaged too much. So this in itself, and the fact Dutch investigators found bones with no microscopic signs of teeth, damage, bruising, biting or violence on the bones, which would be visible if an animal ate them clean, more or less debunks the animal attack theory. And a big snake such as the Bushmaster would have attacked one, not both the women, and would also have left marks on the bones. And none of those animals can crack big bones or eat and digest big bones, so where are their skeletons? Their skulls? Hardly any bones have been found other than one foot, one upper leg bone part (a femur), a lower leg bone (tibia) and half a pelvic bone and one rib. IF a wild animal in fact did kill them, how did their clothes come off - Kris' jeans shorts was found in one piece in/near the river and both the girls had their bras neatly folded in their backpack? So despite Betzaida Pitti naming wild animals as a possible culprit, this official statement was pretty vague and unfounded, and it wasn't well received. Nevertheless, this down to earth commentator - Danny R. Smith - said about this: "I've had cases where only a few pieces of the skeleton remained. Animals can take pieces and run off. Think of a pack of coyotes each grabbing what they could and heading over the hill. Searches are usually constrained by terrain and quite honestly manpower and hours. A fifty foot diametre or maybe a hundred yards, depending on the terrain. There is so much overgrowth in that region there could be bones within those distances that will never be found. As far as markings, the absence of the markings on the remaining bones just means an animal did not disturb that part."
Questions I have with the wild animal scenario are: - Why have none of the bones found shown a single clear microscopic marking from teeth or claws on them then? Also, where are the skulls and other big bones which animals cannot crack? Jaguars and panthers are so rare in those areas and so shy, that many wildlife specialists and guides from the area have never seen one in their lifetime. And would they really have both been attacked and killed by the same wild animals then, at the near same location? Because the few bone remnants of both girls were found more or less in the same area, close to Alto Romero. How can a rolled up mass of skin be found, but not.. two skulls? I think that the science in this case actually speaks against a wild animal attack... These forensic findings were leaked by the scientists, not spread by the official prosecution. They seem legit to me, people like Jeremy Kryt have had access to the autopsy and forensic reports and findings. And last but not least: if wild animals attacked them at some point,why did the girls then call emergency services on day one already? First emergency calls were made during daylight and by all logic still close to the Pianista summit and civilization. And if they took the night photos to scare off wild animals, then where is the Jaguar/Panther on these photo..? In fact; not even a single nighttime photo shows an animal, despite three hours of flashing the camera. Not once was an actual animal caught in the camera's flashlight. Which doesn't mean that there were no animals around, but they most likely weren't killed and/or dragged around by a big animal.
There are some serious issues with the official notion of the authorities that on the one hand Sinaproc and the volunteers and half the army searched that region extensively, for months in fact. Over and over again, including all the trails (and off trail) between the summit of the Pianista trail and Alto Romero, in which vicinity the remains were found. Sinaprocs director said it on camera; those girls were not there. They must have gone somewhere else. But at the same time these officials want everybody to believe that Kris and Lisanne have both fallen down the slope of the main riverbed that runs through that area. Near monkey bridges, no less; places which are passed every day and which the search troops certainly passed. They weren't there, according to the people who actually were physically in Boquete and doing the searches. Neither by bloggers who had gone out in may to help look for the girls and who passed all the monkey bridges, looking for clues. Yeh, says police on the one hand, yeh they did a magnificent job, the police and investigations. No stone was left unturned. But how can one maintain on the one hand that everything was properly searched, and on the other hand that Kris and Lisanne were withering away right next to this river in some riverbed they couldn't get out of and nobody heard or saw them. Despite the phone being activated until day 11 and them having be conscious by all logic, going by the phone log activity. They wanted to be found and yet nobody did. Despite normally finding anyone who went missing there in the terrain above Boquete. But here we are, that is just what authorities want us to believe. Everyone who takes a step beyond the summit is entering the portals of hell and risks their lives, even though the same region is visited daily, weekly by tourists who have a guide with them. It always was a normal continuation of the Pianista trail. Smiling photos on those monkey bridges, not a problem. Until the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne.They were there in a very dry and sunny period of early April without muddy trails even. But no, Pitti warns: one wrong step and you are gone forever. But nothing proves that they have gone off trail and got lost. Even in their last photos of April 1st, behind the summit, they are firmly on the main trail. And those photos and the video of the Kremers family shows clearly that this isn't 'wild unchartered jungle terrain' but a simple and clearly visible winding trail, passing some streams and trees and eventually a meadow. They weren't dressed to go off track and we have no indication that they did go off track, other than the impersonal odd night photos (do not forget that several different fingerprints and DNA from 4 unidentified people were found on the camera and belongings, people who have never been identified by police). But in the media, these university educated, fit women have been painted unfairly as two naive adventure seekers.
And the absense of anything personal is what stands out as well. Personal indications would be for Kris or Lisanne to have looked up the phone numbers of the parents (but a 3rd party wouldn't know what to look for then); personal would be to not only look up Myram's number (the only person in those phones which locals would have known) but to also try to actually call her (they never did). It would also be personal to write something in Dutch; some notes, some documentation (they both wrote in their diaries daily normally), or a draft message to a loved one. Of course, with a 3rd party not speaking Dutch, this was also impossible to fake for anyone from Panama. Selfies - nope. Movies (Canon had enough battery and memory) - nope. Daytime photos showing where they were - nope. None of that. In light of this, powering a phone on overnight but not using it for anything that would have been natural for these young women, such as calling loved ones, writing draft messages, anything personal really, is odd. It drained the remaining battery and for what? To check a weather app once, in the middle of the night. It's all highly suspicious and out of character for Kris and Lisanne who demonstrated completely opposite behaviour until then, taking pictures all the time, being in daily contact with their parents and writing in their diaries daily to document their days.
*And let me remind you once more what a sh*tshow this entire investigation was
It seems there were some risks involved with this Pianista trail
People had been robbed in the past. People had gotten lost in the jungle. A guide was recommended. The girls seemed confident however, perhaps due to the low difficulty grade of the walk. It takes around 1,5 to 2 hours to climb to the top, which has stunning views, reaching all the way to the coast on clear days. Then downwards is achieved in around an hour, depending on your level of fitness. Especially the climbing part can be tiring when the day time temperatures and sun are high, combined with the high humidity in Panama. But for young, fit people it should not be a problem. Lisanne was known to be sporty, she played volleyball at a high level and liked to go for walks. Kris was slightly less athletic but in good physical shape nonetheless, which is also visible in their photos on the trail and at the top. At the start of the trail, the path is clearly visible and well defined. But as you ascend, it gets more narrow and the jungle does close in. Nevertheless, it should be clear which is the main path and where to go. And once you descend again from the summit (which is cooler than the valley), moving on instead of the recommended turning back, the trail is for a long time still clearly distinguishable, especially on the dry and sunny day of April 1st 2014. However, the further you move on, the more risks of getting lost. It drags you further and further into the jungle, and the next settlement is a multi-day walk. And there are risks with the rivers too; they have monkey bridges; dodgy swanky frail cables where you can move over, but which can easily make you lose your balance. They are placed high above the river and a fall can cause injuries. If the water is high and runs fast, you can drown too. At the start of the girls' trip however the water was relatively low and slow flowing. There is also said to be another bottleneck on the route, where you need to pass a metal gate to continue the Pianista Trail, instead of walking along it (which would direct you in the wrong way).
There are some serious issues with the official notion of the authorities that on the one hand Sinaproc and the volunteers and half the army searched that region extensively, for months in fact. Over and over again, including all the trails (and off trail) between the summit of the Pianista trail and Alto Romero, in which vicinity the remains were found. Sinaprocs director said it on camera; those girls were not there. They must have gone somewhere else. But at the same time these officials want everybody to believe that Kris and Lisanne have both fallen down the slope of the main riverbed that runs through that area. Near monkey bridges, no less; places which are passed every day and which the search troops certainly passed. They weren't there, according to the people who actually were physically in Boquete and doing the searches. Neither by bloggers who had gone out in may to help look for the girls and who passed all the monkey bridges, looking for clues. Yeh, says police on the one hand, yeh they did a magnificent job, the police and investigations. No stone was left unturned. But how can one maintain on the one hand that everything was properly searched, and on the other hand that Kris and Lisanne were withering away right next to this river in some riverbed they couldn't get out of and nobody heard or saw them. Despite the phone being activated until day 11 and them having be conscious by all logic, going by the phone log activity. They wanted to be found and yet nobody did. Despite normally finding anyone who went missing there in the terrain above Boquete. But here we are, that is just what authorities want us to believe. Everyone who takes a step beyond the summit is entering the portals of hell and risks their lives, even though the same region is visited daily, weekly by tourists who have a guide with them. It always was a normal continuation of the Pianista trail. Smiling photos on those monkey bridges, not a problem. Until the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne.They were there in a very dry and sunny period of early April without muddy trails even. But no, Pitti warns: one wrong step and you are gone forever. But nothing proves that they have gone off trail and got lost. Even in their last photos of April 1st, behind the summit, they are firmly on the main trail. And those photos and the video of the Kremers family shows clearly that this isn't 'wild unchartered jungle terrain' but a simple and clearly visible winding trail, passing some streams and trees and eventually a meadow. They weren't dressed to go off track and we have no indication that they did go off track, other than the impersonal odd night photos (do not forget that several different fingerprints and DNA from 4 unidentified people were found on the camera and belongings, people who have never been identified by police). But in the media, these university educated, fit women have been painted unfairly as two naive adventure seekers. 
*And let me remind you once more what a sh*tshow this entire investigation wasOne wonders why the local government didn't get searchers in more quickly (during the first and most important days, no professional searches were organized) or even set up emergency cell coverage in the area; some sort of mobile network range extender, which is technically doable with a helicopter, portable tower, or drone, from what I understand. And why were no thermal cameras used? (I guess these days with drones that would have been easier perhaps than in 2014). And have authorities tried to call the girls' phones, while they were missing? Why were not even their phone locations provided by the telecom operator in the area? Did Pittí not properly request for them? And why didn't she look into the phone use of other people in that area at the time? Telecom providers can map out exactly who were in the Pianista area on April 1st, based on their phone locations. But nobody seems to have investigated this... It is basic investigation stuff these days; checking surrounding phone activity (WHO were also in that area that day??), checking the phone and internet activity of potential witnesses. But I have verified that the official case documents, unfortunately, confirm that none of this was done by authorities. It's enough to make a grownup cry, this investigation. Why wasn't there a case official sent to accompany the locals who were searching for the girls' remains? Can you imagine the FBI asking locals to do the work for them, without even a single officer in place to oversee the operation? (No). Why were the houses of potential suspects never checked with luminol for traces of blood? Private land of people of interest should have been scanned for the presence of bones. Local soil samples were never properly commissioned, Dutch search and rescue dogs were somehow never allowed or able to search beyond the Mirador. We still don't know what type of water remnants were left in the plastic water bottles that were found in the girls' backpack, because the forensic testing was never requested by Betzaida Pittí. We should have known where they last filled their bottles; was this in a river? Was it filled with tap water in a house? Was there still commercial 'supermarket water' inside? Why do we not know these things? Crime scenes weren't secured, a private bedroom was trampled and raided before police even got there. Locals who should have been people of interest were protected and witnesses were cast aside. Notice how there is no official report on the factually established bleach on Kris' bones; no official mentioning/explanation of the mysterious disappearance of photo 509, no mention of the crazy timeline with the nighttime photos, the widely scattered remains, the absence of most other remains, the inexplicable fact that large scores of searchers couldn't find these girls in a relatively small area; the incompatibility of many solid seeming witness statements with the official timeline. No scientific evidence that they fell off a cliff, no signs of a slide down a mountain on the personal belongings... Their belongings were found undamaged, as far as we know. But the official story is that Kris and Lisanne simply got lost and fell to their deaths or drowned. Never mind that the rain season hadn't started yet at the time, never mind that the rivers weren't swollen yet, that these two athletic girls could swim or at the time have even hopped over river rocks from one side to the other, or wade to the other side. Autopsy reports weren't shared in the official case files, Pittí's end theory was never proven, not even partly. Specialists who offered their help were ignored. The prosecutor was more interested in parading in front of the cameras than doing the hard stuff. Despite having been fired in 2015, Pittí later betrayed the parents by trading THEIR daughter's private case files, against their will and probably illegally, with a bunch of opportunists who tried to clean her reputation for money. Absolute corruption. And yet, some people keep it up that the investigation was very thorough and professional...
It seems there were some risks involved with this Pianista trailPeople had been robbed in the past. People had gotten lost in the jungle. A guide was recommended. The girls seemed confident however, perhaps due to the low difficulty grade of the walk. It takes around 1,5 to 2 hours to climb to the top, which has stunning views, reaching all the way to the coast on clear days. Then downwards is achieved in around an hour, depending on your level of fitness. Especially the climbing part can be tiring when the day time temperatures and sun are high, combined with the high humidity in Panama. But for young, fit people it should not be a problem. Lisanne was known to be sporty, she played volleyball at a high level and liked to go for walks. Kris was slightly less athletic but in good physical shape nonetheless, which is also visible in their photos on the trail and at the top. At the start of the trail, the path is clearly visible and well defined. But as you ascend, it gets more narrow and the jungle does close in. Nevertheless, it should be clear which is the main path and where to go. And once you descend again from the summit (which is cooler than the valley), moving on instead of the recommended turning back, the trail is for a long time still clearly distinguishable, especially on the dry and sunny day of April 1st 2014. However, the further you move on, the more risks of getting lost. It drags you further and further into the jungle, and the next settlement is a multi-day walk. And there are risks with the rivers too; they have monkey bridges; dodgy swanky frail cables where you can move over, but which can easily make you lose your balance. They are placed high above the river and a fall can cause injuries. If the water is high and runs fast, you can drown too. At the start of the girls' trip however the water was relatively low and slow flowing. There is also said to be another bottleneck on the route, where you need to pass a metal gate to continue the Pianista Trail, instead of walking along it (which would direct you in the wrong way).
Thanks for following this case and for everyone chiming in here or on my youtube channel to share your thoughts. I hope and believe that now that this case is properly archived and covered, now that the Dutch videos are for the most part translated and all the Dutch sources have been translated as well, and now that the story is being covered by writers, bloggers and youtubers all over the world, this will increase the chances that people who do know more will speak out, eventually. I truly believe that.
When I tried to make some sense out of this disappearance case back in late 2018/early 2019, there was on the one hand very limited public information with regards to what actually happened to Kris and Lisanne, and on the other hand a lot of journalistic work was done on the matter which had not always been highlighted equally well. It was clear that the story had some gaping holes and that there was conflicting information out there. I have tried to shine a light on all this publicly available info about the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne and I tried to bring it all together here, free of charge for all of you to see and if needed I translated it from Dutch or panish into English. I also tried to broaden the narratives about what may have happened to these young women. In the hope that when more people know about this case, chances would increase that we'd ever find more facts and answers. So, with this blog series I wanted to gather all the publicly available and relevant information in this case comprehensively in one spot (call it a form of Open-source Intelligence), with source links provided whenever possible. Instead of having all these pieces of information scattered all over the internet, I brought them together here in a (long) overview story of my own, reflecting what is known about the case by now. This includes interviews, journalistic pieces, statements from people linked to this case, investigation results, possible theories, arguments pro and contra and more. In part 2, part 4 and part 5 especially of this blog series, I cover many different theories from other people. I also translated many videos and articles of interest from Dutch to English for you, in order to provide you with the most detailed archive of this case. - Over time the media in general has gotten a beating for supposedly not covering this case well enough. This mainly comes from officials or their representatives, who are not happy with criticism. I strongly disagree with this however. I based nearly my entire blog series on public (media) information and as more official case info has become available slowly but surely, I am surprised how good the media did, all in all. Over time I only had to make minor adjustments to the story as we have learnt it from public media sources. Overall they were spot on. The case officials themselves have also chosen not to inform the media about certain things, but blatantly leaked other details they díd want to come out. So there you go. Oh, and it took me many months to find all the sources, to translate Dutch material and compose the summarized, detailed story here below, based on what is known from publicly available information (including official police information, news articles and interviews) so far. Some people have used more than just a little of my work for their own publications, without as much as a source mentioning. Don't be such a douche and give a shout out or a source mentioning when you use info from these blogs or my videos for your own videos or sites or publications :)
I have nothing substantial to add, but wanted to thank you for your vigorous work in collecting and translating every relevant piece of news and evidence for this case. It was a great read that I enjoyed very much. The case itself is very unsettling and kept me up a few nights.
ReplyDeleteI do not personally think it is possible that either accident or crime theory can account for all of the evidence. Either they got lost first then ran into someone, or they ran into someone and fled then got lost and were eventually found by this third party.
Thanks again! I got weeks of reading material from your blog.
Thank you so much for your kind words and for reading about the case here. Like many others out there I am simply trying to do my part in an attempt to keep this case in the limelight and perhaps get it solved even, eventually. Although both the Panamanian and the Dutch prosecution and officials are 'dead set' on keeping the case closed. Yes I think you are right there, it is indeed a never fitting puzzle. None of the theories out there give a 100% fit and thus we keep changing around the puzzle pieces. But now that Juan published the never before seen night pictures and such, we have a few more facts to work with again. Glad to hear you also ultimately believe in an element of foul play.
DeleteBest wishes
IMG_0573-63.jpeg
ReplyDeletehttps://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaDcK-zyudR_UXP4xNvvSpKhbEUNHFkl1cvaGaZrvkiKqkgSL0BK5mjUL2SGcDjw/photo/AF1QipPbiXn_VIr-YOegzlY7bqv4m-oyW5-xNi4uPXz2?key=UjkzUHpsRmtLNUc2RlphdjVTWHRZSVEySjNYS0NR
Is that a face in this picture? this was found on the photo album you had linked in this blog
Hi, thanks. Do you mean the outline of a skulled face almost? It may just be a pareidolia?
DeleteHi, I wanted to add that on the picture where you see the hair it really looks like you can see 2 teeth in between the red hair. You can see it on the right just below the middle. I've zoomed in many times and am really sure it's 2 teeth.
Deletehttps://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nora-quoirin-malaysia-closes-probe-21252733
ReplyDeleteThank you for this update! Seems another case where the authorities are quick to rule things an accident, and then close off the case. Where have we seen that before eh? :(
DeleteIn my opinion, the (little fact-based) argumentation of some people culminates when it comes to the 90 or so so-called night photos. Here, for example, you give a commentator who, precisely because of the absence of concrete objects in the photos, suspects a criminal mastermind behind these pictures. This is like arguing that the girls rarely used the mobile phone when they were in captivity, without realizing that captivity would likely have prevented them from using the mobile phone altogether. But the argument that the non-representational nature of the pictures was signaling a perpetrator as their author seems even more tendentious: This argumentation misses some of the rules of argumentative honesty, I guess. Particularly since it is based on a whole series of assumptions that are not mentioned in the context, such as that if Lisanne or Kris had taken the photos, concrete objects would be visible in the photos. But why actually? Because it must have been about capturing images?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's fair to imply that. Obviously, it was about something else, because otherwise there would be more to see in the pictures than the night sky. You yourself give good clues that the purpose of the night shots could not have been to scare off animals or attackers either, because otherwise there would probably be animals or attackers in the pictures. It also seems impossible that the path should be illuminated because, as you were able to show very clearly, there was no change of location in the three hours during which the pictures were taken. Against this background, the interpretation must therefore be based on what is constant in the photographs, and that is simply the orientation of the camera and what was done with it, besides not taking pictures, namely triggering the flash. Therefore, the old, unexciting assumption that it was an attempt to send out light signals into the night sky is the most plausible one. Even if there may be doubts as to whether objectively the conditions were actually given for drawing attention to oneself in this way, this explanation is far more plausible than the more presuppositional thesis that someone else could have taken the photographs in order to create a false impression. A simple cost-benefit analysis illustrates this well: What value should it have had for the perpetrator or perpetrators to spend three hours (!), and thus a good part of the night, photographing the night sky several times a minute? And what use could it have had for the girls or one of them? Maybe even being in a state of half-consciousness. For whom, if not for Lisanne and Kris, could the flashing of light have been of such essential importance that they made producing flashes their main task for hours? While the subjective motives and the objective Benefits for alleged perpetrators remain completely in the dark and incromprehesible, it is obvious what the two young women, or one of them, might have wanted to achieve with the flashes. After all, search teams flew over the area the day before. Light signals couldn't be helpful at daytime, at night, that might have been her idea, they were.
It's difficult and I think some people make the mistake of zooming in too much to one or two aspects of this case. For instance on the night photos or the phone use. They can all be explained in whatever way you want. They could be rationally explained as the work of two girls delirious with hunger and first and exhaustion, or as photos made by someone else entirely, trying to create a fake trail of evidence. We just don't have enough facts to be certain about anything, when it comes to these photos and the use of their mobile phones. Yes thank you, there are soms things we can argumentate about them, for instance that it is less likely that whomever took thee photos did so to scare off an animal; because in the 90-something photos an animal hasn't been pictured once. Also, why would you keep making photos for 3 hours on end then? Also, there is zero evidence that helicopters were flying at night. All the info available indicates that helicopters only flew during a few days at the start of the search and always during daytime. There is zero evidence that helicopters would have flown in the dark of night, and as late as April 8th. I therefore dismiss (until new facts show up) that they were trying to flash an overflying helicopter. The same issue for search groups; we have no evidence whatsoever that search groups were walking out there in the dead of night. Yes same for the theory that they were lighting their way with the flash; all evidence points against this, due to the static nature of these photos. I agree that orientation is one of the most logical explanations around for now. Regarding light signals; that is possible, but I do wonder what triggered them to do that then, and why only on april 8th and not way sooner? They had been alone in the jungle for over a week (!) by then, and we have no evidence that troops were out between 01:00 -04:00 that night.
DeleteBut none of this disqualifies the alternative explanation of a 3rd person taking the photos. No, not at all. We have not a single photo identifying the photographer. Not even a hand or arm has been captured, enabling us to see if it was a he or a she. And you can personally think it is an illogical notion, there are no objective facts that disprove it, at the moment. I understand that you find it illogical that a 3rd party would make the effort to go out to take those photos. But I can think of a rational (I think at least..) explanation for that. IF a 3rd party was in fact involved then I don't personally believe that they would have done a hell of a lot of photoshopping or manipulation of the photos when they found the backpack and the camera. I think they went through them and only erased the photo 509, possibly because it contained something incriminating. The rest all told a perfect story, of kris and Lisanne walking alone in the wild there, unprepared, poorly dressed for the endeavor and going to the Pianista summit and beyond. Perfect stuff to allow the police to find. It just cements an alibi story on their behalf. People who say that criminals would just destroy a backpack like that, sometimes forget that there have been other missing people there including the missing British tourist Alex Humphrey, who has gone missing without a trace in the exact same area. You cannot continue to let people dissolve into nothing there, not with a mad circus of foreign press and searchers looking for these girls and demanding answers. If that backpack and those bone remains hadn't been found, the search would have gone on and on. The Dutch families had the financial means and the drive for it. Nobody living there wants that.. Indeed, a signal that the women were dead.
In light of this, it is not incomprehensible that a 3rd party would want to add more evidence to the camera, finishing the visual alibi of sorts. Now police and the families not only have photo evidence of the girls being physically on the Pianista Trail on day 1 and beyond the summit, but also an update from day 8, cementing the story (visually) that YES they got lost in the great unknown and yes they tried to survive for over a week. It really meant the evidence of an accident, for a lot of people, those night photos. Not all criminals are low IQ'ed brutes, some are highly pragmatic and logical.
DeleteAnd people must also not make the mistake of just zooming in on some aspects of this case, and then forgetting about the bigger picture. I like to look at all the details though and to zoom out. Everything must be incorporated into one theory or another, not just nitpicking about the psychological analytics of these photos. It seems a fact that Kris and Lisanne ventured out without taking the necessary precautions. They weren't properly dressed or equipped for such a trek into unknown wild terrain. They did not bring enough food and water or extra clothes, let alone a means to defend themselves or find their way back if needed. These two lovely girls made grave errors in judgment when they ventured out in unknown nature without the necessary precautions. That is something that stands above everything else.
But there are other reasons why an accident seems less likely to some people, me included. For instance:
-How come the entire skeletons were never found?
-How come the bodily remains of the two girls were find in the same vicinity, but one had her bones bleached clean and in a late stage of decomposition, while the other had remains in a very early stage of decomposition?
-How come 5 months after their disappearance, a rolled up ball of skin from lisanne was found (from her shin bone), in a very early stage of decomposition? Impossible for the skin to have been kept out in the jungle all that time, and still look like that. The forensic pathologist stated that either it was fresh or someone had stored it cool and dry for a period of time. How does that match with an accident scenario?
-How come their backpack was found dry and clean, 8 weeks into the disappearance when the jungle was wet and muddy? If they left it there themselves, why didn't they ask the help of the villagers living there?
-What happened to the completely missing photo 509, which couldn't have been so thoroughly erased if the girls just pressed the 'delete' button. They didn't delete any photos during their holiday so why was this one deleted if they just got lost at that point and had other things on their mind than selfies?
These are core questions and the accident believers always struggle to come up with a believable logic explanation for all the forensic facts, not just the ones they nitpick here and there.
it makes zero sense for an attacker to spend 4 hours taking night photos. To prove what? That the girls were lost? 1 or 2 photos during the day would do just the same. If I had killed those girls why would I hike my ass to a remote location and spend all night taking photos to convince the worlds that two girls assumed lost were lost? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!
DeleteAt best I would take a few daytime pics and maybe of different locations.
Would the girls take the photos? I dont think anybody else had any reason to do it ... Why would they?
For all the reason that were already exlpained but here is another reason:
- whichever girl was still alive in the jungle exhausted and tired knew she would die. Maybe she was just scared of the dark night and just used to flash to have some light in her last hours. Maybe she was bored and dieing and just needed something to do. What is there to do in the jungle at night? Play with your camera, take some pics.
What makes no sense is that they did NOT take any note or any picture of themselves. That makes NO sense. And that they wanted to spare their parents how they looked? Fucking please. Give me a break.
To all the photoshop clowns. Give it a break. In case of murder to most likely would be a local or drug runner. Do you think those people have the skill and the time to generate dozens of photshopped pictures to prove some nonsense? Fuck no.
Nobody who raped and killed those girls then went to the Photoshop PC and masterly stitched pics together. That just didnt happen! Also these days you can easily analyze photos if they were edited. why doesnt anybody do that. And that Juan guy and his ramblings are only one thing: obsessed and crazy.
Sadly his ramblings are so drawn out and crazy that one can not bear watching his long videos with seconds of facts in regards to exif data.
Again, no sex killer would fuck around with exif data. that just makes no sense. They dont have the skills and no motive. If something bad was in a picture they would simply be deleted like some were.
IF the pics were edited and exif manipulated who did it? the only option is the police who would have the skills and the motive to support their claim the girls got lost and they didnt want to fuck around solving a crime making the area look like a death trap.
To the two SAME images of the SOS marker. No killer would have fucked around making little baloon sticks and SOS markers from pringles cans to divert attention from him. IT MAKES NO SENSE.
Obviously the girls made those markers. So to the same pics. It is 100% it is THE SAME pic. the clear one is the original and obviously the one with the blown out foreground is the edited one. it is clearly edited. someone took the time to make the rock on the right white WHILE all the other foreground to the left is painted with a white brush to blow out the details. This is 100% manually edited. Who and Why?
could have been the cops trying to obscure it or a journalist jut playing around and saving the pic and then leaking it with the others.
THE ONLY QUESTION IS: were those pics leaked as different pics with different names and exif? If so then whoever leaked it (cops or journalist) want to hide something.
it makes zero sense for an attacker to spend 4 hours taking night photos. To prove what? That the girls were lost? 1 or 2 photos during the day would do just the same. If I had killed those girls why would I hike my ass to a remote location and spend all night taking photos to convince the worlds that two girls assumed lost were lost? IT MAKES NO SENSE!!!
DeleteAt best I would take a few daytime pics and maybe of different locations.
Would the girls take the photos? I dont think anybody else had any reason to do it ... Why would they?
For all the reason that were already exlpained but here is another reason:
- whichever girl was still alive in the jungle exhausted and tired knew she would die. Maybe she was just scared of the dark night and just used to flash to have some light in her last hours. Maybe she was bored and dieing and just needed something to do. What is there to do in the jungle at night? Play with your camera, take some pics.
What makes no sense is that they did NOT take any note or any picture of themselves. That makes NO sense. And that they wanted to spare their parents how they looked? Fucking please. Give me a break.
To all the photoshop clowns. Give it a break. In case of murder to most likely would be a local or drug runner. Do you think those people have the skill and the time to generate dozens of photshopped pictures to prove some nonsense? Fuck no.
Nobody who raped and killed those girls then went to the Photoshop PC and masterly stitched pics together. That just didnt happen! Also these days you can easily analyze photos if they were edited. why doesnt anybody do that. And that Juan guy and his ramblings are only one thing: obsessed and crazy.
Sadly his ramblings are so drawn out and crazy that one can not bear watching his long videos with seconds of facts in regards to exif data.
Again, no sex killer would fuck around with exif data. that just makes no sense. They dont have the skills and no motive. If something bad was in a picture they would simply be deleted like some were.
IF the pics were edited and exif manipulated who did it? the only option is the police who would have the skills and the motive to support their claim the girls got lost and they didnt want to fuck around solving a crime making the area look like a death trap.
To the organ harvesters:
Deleteyou cant just kill someone somewhere, put their organs in a bag and take them somewhere else to be implanted. IT doesnt work that way. organs dont last long and the donor has to match. You dont just kill people and then advertise their kidneys. IT DOESNT WORK THAT WAY.
The only way that works is that you run bloodwork on your victims, to catalog them, then keep them alive until you find a matching recipient and then you kill them and harvest their organs.
You do this because whoever paid you $200000 for a kidney doesnt want HIV with it and wants it to match that is why you cant sell some kidneys you "just found in the jungle". Seriously, people need to fuck off with this shit.
The only things you can bulk harvest are generic things like skin, blood, eyes, other membranes, bones. But I dont know if thats worth the effort and if its done in the jungle and why you wouldnt just harvest the natives who nobody gives a fuck about and they are also less likely to mess up your shit with HIV and Hepatitis.
Otherwise, good blog and it weird that nothing makes sense. Especially that they left NO note and no pic, like :Hey mom and dad, we got lost, we are hurt and we are not well. If we dont make it, we love you"
ANYBODY would have done that .. so thats weird
Also take in mind that both options: Getting lost, murdered or abducted are not at all mutually exclusive! I think you mention that.
It is also possible that they went to some horny local for help and rather then helping them, he helped himself to their white pu***es.
the bones are obviously planted. It is highly unlikely they BOTH died in the water at the same time, unless one fell and the other died rescuing her, happens often enough. But then there would be more bones and entire torsos.
The backpack was obviously planted, whoever denies this must be braindead, but it could be that a local found or bought the backpack with contents and wanted to keep it (the electronics probably had the value of their annual income). BUT when the media shitstorm hit they got scared and just dumped the backpack. That is why it was like new.
They were already dead the at the time those night photos were taken, don't you understand up til now???!!! Imagined that you suffered from dehydration and hunger for 7 days in the middle of jungle, you wouldn't and woundn't have waited until 7 days to take these nonsense night pohots (wouldn't be able to actually as well), I mean not even a head-on photos, all dark surroundings and no videos, no messages, no talkings. I mean it doesn't make any sense. Then you check the weird phone calls, they are quite fixed and orderly done acutally, no damn lost hiker would do that for no reason, if I was lost or trapped in a rain forest, I would keep on calling for rescue anytime and anywhere, I wouldn't do it for once the shut my phone, and the 77 times of PIN entries are even bullshit and nonsense too, none of girls would do that if either of them is alive at that time, the first they should do is straight for the emergency call instead of PIN entry.
DeleteSo to sum it up, they were dead already before the weird phone calls and night photos, at least before the night photos, all these weird shit happened just because the perprtrator wants to mess around with the police, they are arrogant and even with psychological distortions for leaving the phone and camera safe and sound, maybe they are used to it. They planted the backpack intentionally after two months no result investigatoin just for the 30000$ reward. For those who still think it's an accident, I would say fuck your degraded braincells, you won't come up with this stuipd ass conclusion if you took a goddamn minute to think about the case.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteRE the discoloured boot: I may have gotten this wrong, but I will ask anyway: Lisanne´s severed foot was found inside the brown boot, when one of the pictures (depicted as "unknown", see the magnification which you posted) seems to show her boots are blue. Unfortunately I find no other picture where one can see her boots...
The other, empty, boot which has been found has been attributed to Kris - but it is blue while the last pictures of Kris show her wearing brown boots.
Is it possible that the foul play can proven, or at least be made much more likely, because the perpetrators put Lisannes foot back into the wrong boot?
Or am I mixing things up?
A
Hi A.
Deletethanks for your thoughts. Yes I think you may be mixing things up, possibly?
I made you two collage pictures of the shoes of both girls. This is the brown set of shoes of Lisanne (the tall brown haired girl), notice that the shoes have a pink/fuchsia coloured inner lining: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-X3CEEAO4_QA/Xpdp_jXv0dI/AAAAAAAACGw/-5DGvPyvZGQ6oOu4zYtWfYtaBIbtvhm_ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/collage.jpg
And here are the shoes from Kris; they were brown normally; brown in the photo of her at the airport, brown on the day of their hike. But, the blue shoe which was found, matches hers. So it is Kris' shoe, you can see the seam on the outside matching hers, also the details of the laces match and the sole. Only the colour has suddenly changed. Just like her sunglasses turned up bleached lighter and her bones of course.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lvT2a60_8EY/Xpdp9xhXBYI/AAAAAAAACGs/uMpcolB8jJ0__yKtaA56MRwRC9JQwfZ2ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/collagekris.jpg
I wonder which photo you saw of Lisanne wearing a blue boot?
Best wishes Scarlet
Sun-bleached sunglasses? A bit like water-damaged umbrellas.
DeleteI am trying to wrap my head around Frank van de Goot's theory that the women fell 30-40 meters down a 60 degree slope and eventually died from their injuries. As you have previously mentioned, then all of these must be true:
ReplyDelete1. Each woman sustained injuries that kept either from going for help for the other.
2. The location of the twig/plastic bag is not at the 2nd cable crossing as believed by locals.
3. Both women willingly removed their bras despite cold temperatures at night.
4. Their bodies decomposed, were dismembered by the current and their remains traveled for many kilometers.
5. The contents of the backpack never became wet.
6. No text messages or recorded memos were attempted.
7. Kris' hair remained clean and dry for 11 days.
8. Lisanne's bones and boot naturally became bleached.
9. They were undiscovered despite being so close to the trail.
10. At least one of them survived for 11 days without food or shelter.
Hi Beach
Deletethanks for your analytical summary. Very good points. I think by the way that Frank van de Goot has turned back on that initial statement.. In Lost in the Wild he sounded very different and he may have realised by now that that statement lacks some basic common sense...
1. Yes. Or one was fit enough to do so but couldn't get out of this ravine. Problem there is that no such ravine is known of in that area. The only steep slopes in the area they were at, are around the summit of the Pianista Trail. And they were all searched many times, by tour guides, sniffer dogs and the lot. No traces of them there. So yeh, then they must both have been too badly injured. Which may coincide with Kris' broken pelvis (ouch) and Lisanne's shattered left foot.
2. Correct. People passed that spot, they weren't there. Tourists went there in late April, looking for K+L and there was nothing there. And if they were then they would have been so close to the way back and to civilization, because there are inhabited houses nearby, that it makes no sense why they stayed there for 8+ days without seeing anyone or finding help.
3. True. The sense in that decision evades me then.
4. That is what must have happened then. Never mind that the river at the 2nd cable bridge is not directly and freely floating to the location where their bone remains were found.
5. Not wet, not damaged, not muddy, not stained, nothing inside was touched by the many river rocks. And there must have been a massive flood to pick up that backpack and drop it off 14 walking hours up north. Through many bends and left and right turns through branching river mouths.
6. Correct. Despite having 8+ days of being stuck in that ravine, so over 200 hours
7. Yep. Not greasy, not muddy, not wet, not tangled from trying to climb out.
8. No it was the pelvic bone and the rib bone from Kris which turned up all clean and bleached after 10 weeks. Lisanne's foot was on the other hand found in a very early stage of decomposition, with meat and skin still attached and in early decomposition also. So wildly different rates of decomp. between the remains of both girls. Despite these bones being found in the same vicinity and at the same time.
9. There is no real evidence that they were close to the trail by the time they went missing.
10. Yes. Because on day 11 the iPhone was switched on for another hour (yeh... don't ask me about how that was possible for a phone with only 50% battery on the morning of their hike..).
Hi all,
ReplyDeleteI will post this in parts due to the character max limit.
I would like to make some points that don't seem to have been covered for what they are worth. I will be blunt and I make no apologies.
1. I think the photo shop ideas need to be let go. Yes it can be done but why? There is no reason to go to all that effort when you could simply delete the photos. Also if a criminal act did take place by a third person who wanted to hide evidence why not simply destroy the camera entirely. It makes absolutely no sense to go parading around the jungle in the dark taking photos of mysterious things.
2. The bones being bleached I think is irrelevant. From what I can see the term bleached was used incorrectly. The evidence says there were traces of phosphorous. Phosphorous can naturally occur in the human body and is also prevalent in some foods so it is not entirely improbable that this occurrence was simply natural.
3. The bands on Lisannes' arms caught my attention. If we are to believe the timestamps on the cameras and believe that the bracelets appeared later during the walk we could wonder, given their homemade look, that they were given to her at some point which would indicate that the two did come into contact with people, locals or villagers perhaps.
4. How much faith do we put in the timestamps on the photos. My experience with digital devices is that they are not always accurate (maybe this is just me) and also a few of the photos are said to be taken with an I Phone. I have always owned I phones and as far as my experience goes they really like to use GPS to ascertain the time and date and if they drop in and out of phone reception they become confused. Also as a side note regarding the incorrect PIN entries. I do have a theory on this which I haven't actually researched but if somebody was in possession of both phones and these phones had SIM cards in them it may be plausible that phone A (belonging to the owner) became inoperable (battery failure, whatever) and so that person swapped the SIM card to phone B (belonging to the other person) and the PIN misses were in fact the phone entry pin which is stored on that phone and not the SIM. Something perhaps that needs to be looked into further by somebody who knows more about phones.
5. Now something interesting I have found in photo 505 ( the one showing Kris looking back slightly bent over with seemingly her hands tied behind her back) I haven't found any mention of this anywhere on the net but too be honest I haven't looked that hard. If you look to the right of her there is some leafage and the trunk of a tree. At this point, circa shoulder height of Kris there is what appears to be a very definitive looking flesh colored shape, perfectly in proportion within this shot which is exactly what a persons arm would look like if they were sitting at the base of a tree with their hands either on or above their head. My first thoughts are that it looks like somebody sitting with their hands bound to the tree above their head. A thought I have not been able to get past. Now if this were indeed what it looks like this would point to a third person, the person that took the photo. Also what I see in Kris's body language is a look of "get away from me" or " I don't want you here" something along those lines.
That's an interesting comment about photo 505 so I had a second look at the photo. It's not the clearest of photos but you are right it does look like a bare raised arm.
Delete6. The next photos (the last ones dated April 1st) after the one mentioned above are also obviously around the time the "nice hike in the jungle" became something else. There is also another time stamp issue here which I wont get into my theories on. The body language of Kris suggests she is being followed, closely, and the person following her is not her friend. Although it also reflects what you would see in a person if they were looking back at a crime they had committed OR something they had been forced to do, that they didn't want to do, such as leaving an injured person behind. The only thing that we could confirm with this photo is that there is a definite look of concern but it does not appear to be, at this point, out and out fear.
ReplyDelete7. The location that the backpack was said to be found. This is a tricky one. The position was determined by the person who handed it over to authorities. And where you might say there is no reason to suggest that this person made up the location that they allegedly found it, you have to remember anything is possible. I have two theories, so far, on the backpack. They are both complicated and as I said are only possible theories. Either the backpack turned up and was found by this person and handed over or there are two variations of the second option. Either the girls made it at least this far and ditched the backpack or they had found themselves, for whatever reason, further than this point and turned back then ditched the backpack. You could also wonder the possibility that they could have been held captive somewhere further downstream for several days (which could explain, if the timestamps are to be believed, the 6 or 7 day gap between photos) escaped, headed up river following the logical path of the reverse of their original trek and at that point again ditched the backpack.I understand this does not explain the contents of the backpack entirely, in particular the bras, but (and I am not a female so if I get this wrong so be it) it could be possible that they removed their own bras during an exhaustive "escape' in a hot, humid environment due to some level of discomfort. I will also say at this point, the shorts that were found I cannot offer any reasonable explanation for and I will not attempt to.
The conclusions of any research are seemingly impossible to reach, hence the reason this remains a mystery. The obvious signs point to foul play of some sort but there is no clear motive or reasoning behind it. It also strikes me as odd that for two friends, such as Lisanne and Kris, who are on the adventure of a lifetime that are avid diary keepers and avid photo takers WHO often shared the camera to photograph one another and appeared in photos together did not write a single thing down and more importantly there are no photographs of Lisanne after they were at the summit of the path. In short the last photos, which show by way of body language that something is wrong, only contain Kris.
Hi, I think at the time when the photo you mentioned was taken the camera might be already in the hands of a third party, and if someone was following Kris, it might also be her friend. Which means things had gone wrong, but hadn't become a "disaster", following your scenario.
DeleteI wouldn't speculate further, since there have been plenty in Scarlets' whole series of articles.
One last mention which is probably nothing but based on my own personal experience and knowledge, referring to the "marker" (the red bags). What I can see is an absolute reason for documenting this with a photo simply by the aspect of the photo. The lens is obviously pointed at the object, which is centered in the photo (as any photographer will tell you the subject of a photo is always in the center of the frame when using photos for documenting REAL events) and so we can assume it is intentional. Now the depiction of the number 5 etched onto the rocks surface could be just light and shadow (my actual belief) but there is a possibility that it is deliberately placed there (a tactic used by very very experienced survivalists, not to say that these girls were not well trained in survival, were they? How will we ever know?) depicting this is the 5th way point and giving a direction of travel, possibly by using the extended branch at the base pointing off to the right of the frame. If this were the case one would have to assume there were, at least, 4 other markers placed which were sadly never documented.
ReplyDeleteSo for now, I will leave my comments for scrutiny and possible debunking. Myself and my team are planning a trip to this region in the near future to retrace the path and document the positions and times of these photos, hopefully, to create a more accurate timeline of events and positions of photos, but I will remain anonymous for now for obvious reasons but perhaps if we find anything interesting we will re visit this post with our findings.
Hi
Deletethanks for all your thoughts. Always good to hear from someone who believes in an entirely different scenario as to what may have happened. I recently read a series of blog posts and the comment sections of a local Boquete man named Lee Zeltzer. They were all removed from the net for some time already, but Juan found a way to trace them anyway in cache. Lee was one of the first in Boquete to go out and interview people living at the Il Pianista trail, trying to gather evidence.
The problem is that Lee Zeltzer was out there pretty much from April 3rd onward, immediately starting to question people on the trail informally once the news of this disappearance broke. So his interviews were right off the bat when people's memories were still fresh. Mostly all said they saw Kris and Lisanne around or shortly after 13:00 heading towards the trail, and then having returned from the trail, back at the trailhead, at or around 15:00/15:30 pm. It seems widely accepted now, also by all investigators on this case, that all those witnesses were off. The camera times are the Golden Standard now. But there wére also at least 12 different fingerprints and DNA traces found on those cameras and belongings. However, that does not deter the investigators in believing the technical date info from the cameras. But I don't understand why so many people lied, so early on? We also never heard an explanation for those 'off' witness statements.
I don't exclude the possibility that Kris and Lisanne did return down the mountain. Yes, they have have ran into other people, which seems the rule when you read other tourists blogs of this route; they always run into other people, even when it rains cats and dogs. Lisanne may have received an indigenous bracelet, who knows. They made it back to the road, asked Pedro for directions how to get back, then asked the owner of the small cigarette shop how to best get a taxi or bus. And then got a lift most likely. may even have gone for a swim (I do believe the swimming photo which Juan published to be legit). Then never made it back home because people took them.
The Pianista photos were real (I can't explain the summit photo appearing to be made around 13:00 if I am to believe the witnesses who saw them leave the language school and get a cap between 13:00-13:30..). The night photos were fake. The backpack was planted, the few bone remains also. Kris' body was treated with chemicals to remove any sign of cause of death, hence the 'bleached' look. Lisanne's left leg bones and foot were not treated and therefore had flesh and meat still on it..
Very good suggestion also on the SIM card. I also believe that the SIM card may have been taken out of the phones and placed in another device. "And the PIN misses were in fact the phone entry pin which is stored on that phone and not the SIM. Something perhaps that needs to be looked into further by somebody who knows more about phones." - very smart idea of you! Very good.
DeleteThe person who found the backpack, her husband works/worked at the time as an aide at the farm of tour guide F. This has not been mentioned in the press, but forum members found photos that confirm this. The woman first contacted tour guide F when she found the bag, then HE brought it to the police.... Very suspicious. I do not believe the girls ditched their backpack there. Reason; that spot where the bag was found is right near habitation. There are houses along the water there. They could have reached out to the locals there. Why wouldn't they? Why leave all your belongings in an inhabited area? No, the bag was planted there and the help of the tour guide was told where it was and where to 'find' it. I believe they were held captive far far away from this area altogether. The caldera region perhaps, instead. The perpetrators only came back in June to plant the bag and a few non-discriminating bones. making it look like Kris and Lisanne walked all that way up north. Complete set up.
Regarding photo 505, yes I did receive a few emails about this. What you also mention, the appearance of an arm, or someone sitting there leaning their head on their arm. There are other photos where people also see shaped of other people, or a man with a hat on. Unfortunately these photos do not have the highest resolution, so enlarging them or adjusting brightness etc can distort the pixels to some degree. Making it very hard to be sure about such shapes.... I wouldn't be surprised either however if they were not alone at this point. I also agree with your feeling of those last photos being off.. Kris not looking relaxed or natural. There is some tension sensible perhaps. Maybe they are accompanied by someone who is becoming friendly but pushy at this point (asking them to keep making photos?) and the girls do not feel comfortable.
But, in the end we just don't know... There are details and facts to go on, but a lot of contradicting info also.... Your guess is as good as mine! Very nice of you to think along here, thanks for all your thoughts. And if you and your team end up walking this route and area, I would love to hear about it somehow, if possible :) Yes for sure, stay anonymous and play the naive tourist. I wouldn't even mention the names of Kris and Lisanne when you go there. especially the tour guide hears everything and is extremely suspicious of anyone mentioning this disappearance and then wanting to go up on the mountain. He also called people housing such tourists to threaten them in the past. But when you do go up there, it would be so interesting to explore the timeline for yourself yes. Ideal would be if someone could find the location of the night photos, but this will be no small feat. Something else of interest: there is a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd cable bridge passing, when you go far enough beyond the Mirador. Some people still believe that the night photos were taken at the 2nd cable bridge passing. I don't think this is correct, but the distinctive rock from the photo with the red plastic on a stick, that rock is quite distinctive and should be able to identify.
DeleteAnyway, thanks for your thoughts and my best wishes
Hello! First of all I would like to congratulate you for your extensive work on this case, it's very well done.
ReplyDeleteI personally do tend to believe that there was a third party involved on this case, I also believe that it was probably a man. The thing is that I am Latin-American, so I think I can understand what the cultural differences between these girls and a potential third party may have meant and where they came from. From my experience, Latin-Americans do carry a sort of notion about Europeans and even Americans, as they represent the "oppressive" rich countries that explore third world countries. When with an European/American, that can result in behaviour that tries to "flip the table" in a way that the "oppressed becomes the opressor", so, like, rudeness, aggressiveness, distasteful jokes etc.. Of course that I'm not referring to most of the population, but I myself have seen natives put tourists in some uncomfortable situations. Personally, I live in a massive metropolis, so things work a bit different where I'm from when it comes to that, but in a region such as Boquete I can picture a situation like that happen with the girls, not only because they seemed like "an easy target" but also because of what they may represent, even if it's something of the unconscious.
Thank you for your kind words! Yes I agree with you. There is just too much that doesn't add up in regards to a Lost scenario, in my opinion also. Ok that is very interesting information. I remember getting the impression when watching Lost in the Wild about this disappearance, that the locals in that hamlet of Alto Romero were also quite hostile and a bit condescending.'Yeh sorry about your loss, but what about the money?!' Death may be a more common thing in latin America too? I'm not sure of course, but seeing documentaries on countries like Mexico, Honduras and Guatamala, the impression I got was that crime was widespread, brutal and that especially women and cartel members died frequently from violence.. And add to that the western tourists who on the one hand help tourism and help the country, but on the other hand I can understand what you write about them still representing colonial oppressors and spoiled 1st world countries. It must be profitable also for the sex trade to have white girls/slaves on offer.. :( When I saw the swimming photo, I did believe right away it were Kris and Lisanne, with those local boys (who died soon after both). They belonged to a local gang. Do you think it would be a plausible scenario that Kris and Lisanne first willingly interacted with them, to raise their spirits. But that once they refused to kiss them or more, that these young men switched and started to force them? Maybe it is also a bit of a macho culture thing? They may have felt rejected and that triggered their controlling evil side? The girls were strangers and they are the king of their kingdom over there. They may have felt that they could do what the heck they wanted over there with those gringa's?
DeleteI believe that smaller rural communities like Boquete are definitely more used to death, specially one that deals with gangs. I'm not so familiar with that scenario, but it reminds me of a Brazilian movie called "Bacurau", that has the sort of vibe that I imagine when I think of this situation specifically. It's about a tiny isolated community in one of the poorer regions of the country that gets targeted by americans and europeans who want to kill people and not be prosecuted for it. The point of view of the movie is clearly latino, however, it is about that relationship that the third and first world have with one another. It is a violent place, but also quite complex, things work in a sort of web of relationships and power dynamics. One thing that I believe for sure is that it must exist some type of unspoken truth in Boquete when it comes to this case and other similar ones, but no one says anything because the true power is the hands of the illegal activity there. Not only that but at lot of times the population of those small communities depend on said activity and the people who participate on it to survive and help them with their basic needs.
DeleteAbout the gang members in the picture, I think it might be possible that they did turn against the girls after they got uncomfortable. It sure plays into the "macho" cultural aspect of not accepting no as an answer. And, when done by a white girl, might even encourage them to do those things because of the whole "overpowering a symbol of oppression" thing. The girls, like many Americans and europeans who go to third world countries, are not used to such situations and the fact that they must be alert at all times. In the place that they rule, they wouldn’t take no as an answer from “entitled europeans”. A native girl probably wouldn’t even have talked to those guys knowing who they might be or are.
I can’t speak for the entirety of Latin America on this issue, since in from Brazil and we’re talking about Panama. The cultures are not as similar as they may seem to an outsider, but of course that there is a lot in common. The structure of society and power dynamics don’t really change when it comes to the “third world”, where some communities have to fend for themselves. The secrecy and protection of one’s family is engrained in Christian beliefs and culture, something that rules over the entire continent. It’s family first and society second.
its looks like" well done " job of organized crime and no one will gonna be punished sad. only what i know for sure its i'm not gonna Travel to the panama or some latin america because it's not safe, and not worth it that's it.
ReplyDeleteThere have always been events like this in the years back, as gang-activity is increasing in all Centro Americas, so things are getting tougher.
ReplyDeletePanama, Costa Rica and even Nicaragua and Guatemala were great countries to travel to back in the time between 1995 and 2005. After that, first tourism grew massively (hipster-kids traveling all over the world on cheap airfares and hostels), and then gang-activities startet, initially by spreading out of the USA, when convicted youngsters went back home (El Salvador and Honduras were the first hot spots).
In Costa Rica problems like this were not evident till around 2004 - it used to be quite a peaceful place then, with only petty theft and small crimes to be alerted to. Today they've got the "Los Morecos" and other gangs.
Panama had always been neighbour of Colombia, with the Darien Gap as a drug-smuggling route (land and sea). Today they also send refugees through this dangerous wilderness.
So yes, these countries used to be good travelling destinations back then. The gap was open as long as a new middle class was emerging – with overall wealth and infrastrucre growing - and severe crime not on the rise.
The global economic crisis of 2007 hit those countries as well by stopping the growth of the middle class and cutting opportinities/chances, letting especially young males down and disenchanted from their dreams. So now they live in shanty quartes and see some posing rapper's and other first world shit on TV or on their smart phones - and they want to be “on the party” as well. And as we know from all the classic mob-movies, the money lies “on the streets”.
As a result I go conform with other comments here, that those countries are no playgrounds for naive first world kids- especially those, who were raised by "curling- or helicopter-parents" , smoothing the their kids way in all aspects of life. Especially female travellers without male company are an easy target (who would have thought that).
Those counties are still good places for “real” travellers, who have already a certain life- and social experience/skills, can speak at least some basic Spanish and have common sense and sharp senses, when it comes to assessing and avoiding potentially dangerous actions/situations.
As for the case of Kris and Lisanne, the guys who pulled all this are lucky, that the parents did not send in a bunch of steel-balled ex Delta-Force or ex Légion étrangère guys. On the other hand - if you "chop one head off", three news will regrow...., that's the problem with gangs and organised crime. The next kid from a shanty town is already standing in line for receiving a gun…
So spoilt kids and “snowflakes”of the genY and Z – better stay home and travel your own places or visit Greta Thunbergs home town in Sweden!
And by the way - airfares might rise anyway after a short hype after rebooting the airline industry. So I think, the hipsters and older genY-dudes and dudettes were the last generation for a longer time, who were able to travel the whole world affordably and with nearly no restrictions. We gotta swallow that pill…
And as already mentioned - for those, who are realistic, fit, who can adapt and have common sense, Central America will still offer great experiences in the future. But…eerh…well….if you go there to make selfies with giant butterflies in front of a waterfall, in hot pants and a tank top, you better stay in your hip urban hood a buy a super-deluxe frappochino with ice and cinnanmon…
That might sound cynical, but we can learn from this case: the world is a tough place an it’s likely, that it’s becoming even tougher…
so long
A good summing up of what these extremely naive girls got into. The ‘elephant in the room’ is what the hell were they thinking.
DeleteGrowing up in a country where all the thinking is done for you, entitled youth in Europe deciding to go to Panama...then wander around like they were strolling around the canals. What a terrible price to pay for such stupidity.
As you mention - the crime situation will be worst now after the economic fallout from the virus.
I agree. But these girls were 21 and 22 years old and the parents of one of them were very worried, but they felt they couldn't stop their daughter. Unfortunately it has become some sort of rite of passage for well to do western youngsters to make some big exotic trip nowadays. Often without seriously weighing the risks. If they had stayed in Bocas with other young tourists, everything may have ended well. But Boquete is not the same and they made the mistake to go into that jungle without a guide or any protection :(
DeleteAnonymous (poster of the long message), I agree. And thank you for pointing out that the situation in those countries was a lot safer before, let's say, roughly 2004. I just did a blog post about a German teenager who died under suspicious circumstances in Malta, but reading up on the matter, Malta did not seem or feel even a fraction as dangerous as a country like Panama. And as such, mostly all Latin American countries, from Nicaragua to Colombia. I blame young western hikers disease on the large amount of backpackers and Millennials basically, happily streaming into the Central American countries, expecting to find perfect paradise instagram photo opportunities... Indeed, the vast middle classes we now have in the western world, with the means to travel and the incentive. There is also a big travel industry, who sponsor these wanderlust influencer types, it is a business model. But it makes many normal youngsters want to go to such destinations themselves, most of them unaware of the history of such countries, the political landscape and the crime numbers.
DeleteEven Kris and Lisanne, who were well educated, levelheaded girls, may have underestimated the risks. I believe the swimming photo to be legit and if they truly decided to go skinny dipping with mere strangers in Boquete, they took huge risks in my opinion. That's easy said in retrospect, but really, that was something they should have felt squeezy about themselves too. It is very well possible still that these girls wanted to have a good time with the locals, but then the atmosphere changed as soon as they declined sexual approaches. Then the local kids, macho's perhaps, maybe looking down on gringo's with money coming to their quarters for meaningless good times, wanted to show them a lesson...
And like you said, there is indeed also the MTV effect, as I'd call it; youngsters from poor backgrounds see the 'gangsta' lifestyle played out in video clips and reality tv shows, and they want a piece of the pie; a part in the fun. This increases crime because when there are no jobs available for them or they don't have the means to get a good education, crime is what looms. Which many modern day tourist is confronted with, there are new stories every year of missing backpackers, murdered tourists and that doesn't even include the plethora of robbings and rapes.
And you are right on the money with your comments, it is true, these Millennials are raised by their 'best friends' (parents), often in a PC bubble of love all cultures. They get mostly everything they want and participation prizes too for joining a competition. No is not a word they like to hear. And their mothers are often (semi-)feminists, instilling the confidence in their daughters that girls can do anything a boy can. Or better. Including traveling....
DeleteIn the Kris and Lisanne case, Lisanne's parents were very worried about their daughters travel plans. They did not like the sound of Costa Rica or Panama one bit. But they didn't say no to their (by now adult) daughter. There is this now famous horrible case of a Danish and Norwegian girl who went climbing a mountain in Morocco in December of 2018. They were vocal online about immigrant support and the intrinsic goodness of all different cultures. Only one parent has stated later in the media that she was a little bit worried about the Muslim country her daughter went to. Two very young, blonde, Scandinavian girls, alone in a tent. They were stalked, raped and decapitated on camera and the monsters then sent the footage to all the girls' online friends and family. Just because the world should be everyone's oyster, does not mean that it actually IS, in reality.
True, whomever is behind their death has been lucky that the feeble Dutch brown nosers and the corrupt slack Panamanians were on the case and not commando's, or the Mossad, or any true investigative elite team. Most if not all evidence is gone by now.
And indeed, those who are well prepared, fit, aware of the risks and willing to stick to the 'rules' will probably be fine, although anyone can be hit by a truck, anywhere. But younger women traveling alone in some parts of the world, I think they need a reality check.
It often mentioned that they were ‘smart’ ‘level headed’ and other accolades etc but were they really? Is this another assumption made from media,parents etc.
DeleteThe fiasco regarding the so called school they were going to help out in smacks of very poor planning and something obviously wasn’t quite right there.
Were they that ‘bright’ ? - yes they had degrees but they are participation certificates these days and the fact that they went into the jungle with hardly any water and skimpy clothing does not suggest situational awareness or common sense. They obviously didn’t know that the temperature decreases with altitude and it rained there. Really two immature adults who met a tragic end and it’s hoped that others will take heed.
Quote :And you are right on the money with your comments, it is true, these Millennials are raised by their 'best friends' (parents), often in a PC bubble of love all cultures. They get mostly everything they want and participation prizes too for joining a competition. No is not a word they like to hear. And their mothers are often (semi-)feminists, instilling the confidence in their daughters that girls can do anything a boy can. Or better. Including traveling....
DeleteBrilliant summing up !
Eu percebi que a partir de um momento só tem fotos da Kris e tiradas de longe, algumas ela está de costas, e nas fotos que ela está d e frente o rosto está com semblante fechado, pode ser que nesse momento elas já tenham sido "capturadas" e a Lisanne não esteja mais junto dela, tenha sido levada por outra pessoa para longe da Kris e a câmera tenha ficado com a pessoa que levou a Kris, por isso as fotos só dela. Acredito que tenham sido assassinadas e todas as evidências implantadas nas cenas de maneira que pudesse parecer qualquer coisa. A pessoa ou pessoas que cometeram o assassinato não estavam preocupadas em ocultar provas e evidências, pois parece que sabia que não ia ser investigado a fundo.
ReplyDeleteObrigado. Sim, as últimas fotos, 507 e 508, também foram tiradas do alto. Ou por Lisanne, de pé em uma pedra, ou por outra pessoa. Não sabemos porque Lisanne não é mais retratada depois da cúpula. Eu concordo, eles se conheceram em jogo sujo. A foto 509 mostrou evidências disso e foi removida.
DeleteSomething I feel wasn't touched on is -why- her wristbands would have disappeared. She clearly used them as her hairbands to put her hair up, and put them back on her wrists when letting her hair down. Not especially helpful, but out of all the speculation I read between the 3 blog posts, I didn't see that exact detail covered.
ReplyDeleteHi, thanks, yes the hairband was sometimes around her wrist, when she had her hair down, or it was gone from Lisanne's wrist, when she had her hair up. It seems to have been the hair elastic all along, and nothing else mysterious.. Thanks for pointing this out, I have added this detail to the blog now.
DeleteThanks, yes the has been mentioned also in youtube comments. Very good, logical explanation! I think that is the right explanation indeed.
ReplyDeleteFor some ease of understanding I simplified the information on the known timings of the photographs of April 8th, now please note there are several photographs not counted here below as they have never been released and there is therefore limited information as to when exactly they were taken. But as a rough guide the photography looks like this:
ReplyDeleteApril 8th - 1 photo at 1.37am
4 photo's at 1.38am
5 photo's at 1.39am
3 photo's at 1.40am
2 photo's at 1.41am
2 photo's at 1.42am
1 photo at 1.43am
1 photo at 1.44am
4 photo's at 1.45am
2 photo's at 1.46am
1 photo at 1.48am
1 photo at 1.49am
2 photo's at 1.50am
1 photo at 1.51am
1 photo at 1.52am
2 photo's at 1.53am
2 photo's at 1.55am
1 photo at 1.57am
2 photo's at 1.58am
1 photo at 2.00am
1 photo at 2.05am
1 photo at 2.12am
1 photo at 2.15am
1 photo at 2.29am
1 photo at 2.31am
1 photo at 2.37am
1 photo at 2.46am
1 photo at 3.09am
1 photo at 3.22am
1 photo at 4.22am
---
Photo #550 - April 8th 01:39:54 AM
Photo #553 - April 8th 01:40:32 AM - So between 1.39 & 1.40 eight photo's are taken and accounted for, but according to this numbering here two photo's are missing/unreleased. Looking at the timings here, these two are taken in just 30 seconds, which fits the frequency in general in these early shots as the photographs average being 10 seconds apart. But, 10 photographs taken in 1 minute therefore?!!!! Surely not...?
This is not the only such gap in the photo ordering, and a similarly hard to believe number of photographs being taken within just a minute, so is there an automatic photoburst function in operation here, or are the camera dates suspect? If the frequency is correct then it is little wonder the flash function occasionally failed, I have never tried to take ten photographs within 1 minute, but if there isn't an automated 'photoburst' function responsible and it is all manual it is saying something about the extreme emotional and mental state of whoever is taking these pictures...
You do talk about al of this in your page up above Scarlet, so I am making no claim here to have made any dramatic new discovery or insight. But refining the timings and run order of the photographs taken and listed above makes for a very informative way to view and understand how the Photographer was behaving that night, and in what order the shots came in. If you take the list below and put it in notepad, then use it against the actual Photographs posted up above on this page, it really puts you there on the night almost. At just ten seconds apart this is proof that everything in those photographs is presumably what is sat around as the camera is moved up, left, then right, and... for the shot of Kris' hair?
DeletePhoto #510 - April 8th 01:29 AM
Photo #511 - April 8th 01:30
Photo #512-540 (18 taken within just six minutes, all Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #541 - April 8th 01:37 AM
Photo #542 - April 8th 01:38:12 AM
Photo #543 - April 8th 01:38:28 AM
Photo #544 - April 8th 01:38:48 AM
Photo #545 - April 8th 01:38:57 AM
Photo #546 - April 8th 01:39:12 AM
Photo #547 - April 8th 01:39:21 AM
Photo #548 - April 8th 01:39:32 AM
Photo #549 - April 8th 01:39:42 AM
Photo #550 - April 8th 01:39:54 AM [Boulder & marker]
Photo #551 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #552 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #553 - April 8th 01:40:32 AM
Photo #554 - April 8th 01:40:48 AM
Photo #555 - April 8th 01:40:59 AM
Photo #556 - April 8th 01:41 AM
Photo #557 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #558 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #559 - April 8th 01:41 AM
Photo #560 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #561 - April 8th 01:42 AM
Photo #562 - April 8th 01:42,25 AM
Photo #563 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #564 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #565 - April 8th 01:43,28 AM
Photo #566 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #567 - April 8th 01:44,12 AM
Photo #568 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #569 - April 8th 01:45,01 AM
Photo #570 - April 8th 01:45,14 AM
Photo #571 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #572 - April 8th 01:45 AM
Photo #573 - April 8th 01:45 AM
Photo #574 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #575 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #576 - April 8th 01:46 AM [SoS Display]
Photo #577 - April 8th 01:46 AM
Photo #578 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #579 - April 8th 01:48 AM
Photo #580 - April 8th 01:49,47 AM [Kris Kremers Hair]
Photo #581 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #582 - April 8th 01:50,05 AM
Photo #583 - April 8th 01:50,26 AM
Photo #584 - April 8th 01:51,56 AM
Photo #585 - April 8th 01:52,28 AM
Photo #586 - April 8th 01:53,02 AM
Photo #587 - April 8th 01:53,13 AM
Photo #588 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #589 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #590 - April 8th 01:55,01 AM
Photo #591 - April 8th 01:55,36 AM
Photo #592 - April 8th 01:57,03 AM
Photo #593 - April 8th 01:58,26 AM
Photo #594 - April 8th 01:58,35 AM
Photo #595 - April 8th 02:00,37 AM
Photo #596 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #597 - April 8th 02:05 AM
Photo #598 - (Unknown/Unreleased)
Photo #599 - April 8th 02:12 AM
Photo #600 - April 8th 02:15,25 AM
Photo #602 - April 8th 02:29 AM
Photo #603 - April 8th 02:31,25 AM
Photo #604 - April 8th 02:37,11 AM
Photo #605 - April 8th 02:46,16 AM
Photo #607 - April 8th 03:09 AM
Photo #608 - April 8th 03:22,47 AM
Photo #609 - April 8th 04:10,59 AM
(cont...)In all, between the start of photography at 1.29am and up until 2am, there are an astonishing 85 photographs taken in that half an hour, at an average rate of ten seconds apart and a very noticable 5 photographs per minute.
DeleteFrom 2pm till the final photograph at 4.10am (just over two hours) there are then just 12 photographs taken. So within the span of the first half hour is the period of greatest energy and intensive shooting. Whether that marked drop-off after exactly half an hour is at all significant beyond the possibility of fatigue finally having taken hold on the photographer is an open question... but the most intense period IS lasting exactly half an hour, between 1.29 & 2am.
More or less the first photograph taken (#511) shows the rain falling from what we assume is above, the droplets appear close to the photographer but interestingly there is no splashing on the camera lens despite what we assume is an upwards shot. The next available shot is about eight minutes later and a strange ultra-close and over-exposed shot of what many think is the edge of Lisanne Froon's face, there is no obvious sign of rain or droplets or moisture here, and the next shot taken, of a portion of rockface, also shows no obvious sign of rain falling, however the next handful of shots DO show the rain IS still falling.
Given the tight timeframe here is spanning between mere seconds and minutes, and the shot of what appears to be Kris Kremers' (apparently dry) hair comes a full nineteen minutes in, with nothing to suggest the rain has paused in all this time, it seems that along with the seemingly dry 'SoS' display there is a very definite shelter here to some degree, perhaps a very generous overhang above is shielding them. Or... is the Photographer in fact not pointing upwards, but downwards?! It's a possibility. But either way there HAS to be some form of shelter at work here. The rain appears continuous through the early hours here, and look to the photography of Photo's #602 onwards and the sheer intensity, and closeness, of the downpour by this point should be making photographs impossible otherwise.
By the time of the photography here on April 8th, at 1.29am, it would have been dark for six-to-seven hours. The SoS Display and proboble Branch Marker waiting to be picked up suggest a rational person is responsible, as some ingenuity, thought, and effort has been put into these - it also shows that this is a camp and that they have presumably been here for a couple of days or more. What prompted someone to pull out the Camera, in the early hours and the dark? I personally would speculate that it may be the rain that triggered it. Evidently there were some considerable downpours this night, and while the photographer seems to have some degree of shelter it probobly was not complete, sleep may have been impossible under these conditions. And it seems reasonable to think that during the day it would have been difficult too. So is sheer exhaustion also a factor perhaps? Despair and frustration combining with the conditions to deliver this response? It seems likely, but consider - ten seconds between shots may seem dramatic, but in fact ten seconds is quite a controlled and lengthy time, it doesn't suggest someone is raging, or in the grip of a mental breakdown, rather I would argue that it suggests there is still a degree of control in evidence. Despair may well be there, but it is still someone in control of themselves.
But it says something too that whoever this is they have no interest in using the camera other than on this rainy night in the early hours, this despite their presumably having nothing at all but time while sitting there, day and night just sat in a huddle, waiting...
Thank you Dave! Good work. True, when you see the times ordered like that, it does seem most likely that someone was turning that camera around and was systematically and purposefully clicking, picturing the direct surroundings.
DeleteDavid, if you look, starting at photo 547, there does indeed appear to be what looks like a tiny droplet on the lens, in the lower left hand corner. It's also there, in the same place, in 556, 559, 561, 562, 565, and 567. And if you rotate 569 and 570, this spot is in the exact same place. It pops up again in 573 and 579. It's there in 584 and makes a last appearance in 597.
DeleteWhat's interesting is that this spot is NOT in 594, nor does it appear in 580, 576 and various other photos where it should be if the photos are in order. It cannot be because the lens was wiped because it shows up in the exact same place in the pictures that it's in.
Just another very weird thing.
True, I noticed the drop on the lens as well in some photos. Strange how it is there and then not there. Still keeping the option open that all of those photos have been shuffled in order. Same for the daytime photos.
Delete@Scarlett, yes, it would seem so. Along with the strangeness involving the timestamps.
DeleteBut this also is a possible explanation for the missing 509. We wonder where it went, if you delete by a computer, it is still there until it is rewritten. You would have to zero-out the drive to get rid of it. The person either did that, or they copied all files but that one to another SDcard.
Or... a much simpler explanation. 509 was not deleted at all. It was just renamed. When they were shuffling around the filenames to reorder the pics, they missed one.
I had never noticed that drop, and never would have! A case of being hidden in plain sight - you are so busy looking at the background you don't ever see the foreground...
DeleteIt's an idea you have concerning photo #509, but I don't think it works that way, you can rename a photo but that renamed photo would still be there (in one form or another) at position #509 as far as I understand it.
What a messy affair these night photo's are. A look at photo#541 might suggest this as a failed 'selfie' from Lisanne Froon, but then why would she hold a camera at herself at very close range like this and take the flash full-on, and why not adapt to try again from a different line or angle?
Of course, the reality is there is nothing to suggest that IS Lisanne. And because of that this is an image that can be used to sum up this entire story of the two after April 1st - Photo#541 hints at being perhaps a glimpse of Lisanne Froon, but then again perhaps not, it could any number of things. Photo#580 hints at being a glimpse of Kris Kremers, but all there is is a formless mass of red hair, a mass that makes no sense at all and in reality shows nothing at all of Kris Kremers that night. There is a pair of her shorts found later, abandoned. There is an inner sole of what may or may not be from Lisanne's boot found in forest not too far from the Pianista starting point. A glimpse of Lisanne and Kris perhaps? There are conflicting times for their actual start on April 1st, another confusing glimpse, of what have effectively become a pair of ghosts by the time they set foot on the trail... we chase after them, but they are always consistently just out of sight. And when taken as a whole you do start to seriously question the whole idea that they were ever there at all. It's all smoke and mirrors.
@Dave I'm not sure how the 100% certain how the rename process works. It is indeed a 'delete' action but it doesn't work in quite the same way as actually deleting. It doesn't delete the old file, then make a new one with a new name, at least as far as I've read. That is why, if your disk is full, you can still go through and rename large files. The old filename might still be there, but not the actual data. It's now under a new name. But it is just a theory, one someone with more knowledge of Windows systems can debunk.
DeleteI think the photo is of Kris. And there are probably pictures of Lisanne as well. I base that on comments from the parents, stating that some were of the girls (plural) looking rough. This says to me they are both present an alive.
My theory is, sadly, they probably heard someone that night and spent 3 hours trying to get their attention. And they did, only their saviors turned out to be demons. So much of the case turned into each side, losties vs foulies, trying to wholly debunk the other. But if you look at it, both probably occurred.
Hi Thegw,
Deletethat comment about the girls appearing in a rough state in some of the photos, it was never verified! It came from one person who wrote about this case in a blog, but there was no footnote, no source mentioning and the parents never said this themselves. I never heard that same statement again, anywhere in this case coverage.
Regarding the missing photo 509, what the Lost in the Wild crew stated is that the overwriting of photo 509 is not so straight forward, indeed.. They used the exact same Canon camera as the girls to show that when you manually delete a specific photo, and then take new photos, that the next new photo automatically gets the file numbering of the previously deleted photo. In other words: if Kris and Lisanne truly had deleted the original photo 509 themselves and then continued to make the nighttime photos on April 8th themselves with this same camera, then we would have never even known that there ever was another photo 509; the first nighttime photo would then have received the number 509. The fact that it didn't, tells us that photo 509 was deleted AFTER the nighttime photos were made.
Juan said about photo 509 that specialist software should and would have found this missing file if it had been deleted manually from the camera. Recovery software would have retrieved it as a file with the name IMG 102-509 or video 509, listed as stored, once, but 100% irretrievable. Juan even tested this, and could find back deleted pictures from years ago. And there was never any attention for the memory card or the photos in the press he said, because if you don't know anything about it, you think everything is possible.
And someone else wrote about the matter: "If you remove the SD card from camera and take it to PC then through file manager you "cut" the file 509 jpeg, it won't be a copy remaining on SD. There was some discussion that the card was put in PC and either reformatted; or 509 deleted but you'd be able to still recover as you correctly point out from file allocation table. Reformat would destroy all photos so that wasn't done. So I believe one possibility is 509.jpeg was cut and paste on PC and SD reinserted back to camera."
@Scarlet, ugh! That is such the problem with this case. What is true? What isn't?
DeleteI agree about the file. The only way to 'delete' it permanently is to delete and zero the drive or card. They'd have had to copy the whole card to a PC, format or zero the SDcard, then copy it back without 509 OR just copy the whole thing to a new SD card without 509. That is the only way to do it. Besides, it makes no sense for the girls to delete it. They had bigger things to worry about than how they looked in a selfie.
My only goal with the comment was to point out that, in conjunction with the other night photos, a renaming could have taken place--obviously this must have been done on a PC as well. We certainly see evidence from the moisture appearing and disappearing on the lens that the photos have been reordered and thus renamed. I do not know if Canon issues a hash marker on the photos for validation, which would mean the original filenames would be in the original metadata. The thing that makes me hold on it is the fact that the filename is apparently still there on the card. Were the drive zeroed, there wouldn't even be the filename. All you'd have to know it existed is the numbering gap between 508 and 510. But perhaps that IS all that is there is the gap and that is what the authorities are talking about. Back to the first paragraph, what is true and is speculation or mistranlation or misspeaking?
It's true Thegw, there seems not a single piece of certain fact in this case, unfortunately. There are even people challenging the positive DNA match for the bones, because the Dutch did not do a second opinion.... Photo wise, I always assumed that a 3rd party or the Panamanian prosecution put the memory card in a computer, looked through the photos, altered some (exif data seems to indicate that) and cut one photo off the card entirely and pasted it on a computer. That way it's completely gone from the card, minus the empty file with its number.
DeleteBut indeed it is just as possible that everything was taken off the original card and copied onto a new card. Or put it back on the by then formatted original card. The girls did not delete it, it indeed made no sense and it would also have allowed investigators to find more percentage of the original file back.
It's a great point you make about the order being shuffled, going by the appearing and disappearing and then appearing again drop on a very specific place on the lens. The night photos as we have them now were leaked by a Panama source and to be honest, the numbering and time data of them may have been completely false and fabricated by whomever dumped these photos. No official has confirmed their authenticity. But because some of these photos match the few (5) photos that wére published by officials or the families, we can be certain about at least some of these new night photos being the real deal.
Yeh the file names seem to have still been present . But we do not know what the files between 511 and 541 look like either.
@Scarlet, I am someone who isn't entirely convinced on the authenticity of Kris's bones. I think at that point they wanted it over and it's possible they attributed someone else's remains to Kris. Just like that shoe. That doesn't look like Kris's. It would certainly explain why Kris's bones were so far advanced in decomp. I just don't trust the Panamanian police, not after they botched the thing every step of the way.
DeleteI think it was the authorities who did the shuffling. It makes no sense for a third party to mess with the card or photoshop this or that. For a third party, it would much more convenient and a lot more final to just throw the camera and card into the river. Smash the phones. Everything. It didn't need to be in the bag. The bag led to the bones and the bones finished the case.
The authorities on the other hand don't have that luxury. The finding was international news. They couldn't fudge it away like the tape of Elvis finding the bag and the conveniently lost testing results. They couldn't shrug and call it an accident like they did when surveillance tapes were overwritten. They were stuck with it existing.
I think the photos are authentic. They all fit together. The only one that sticks out is 550. I saw a youtube vid by victor hugo trying to add it to the collage composition, but I don't know, the rocks don't match, IMO.
If you think on it, even now Six years after their disappearance, somewhere out there in the wilds of Panama and Alto Romero those very distinctive tops the two girls wore are very likely still in existence.
DeleteYou can dig your garden or anywhere else and pull out long discarded or buried fabrics. And whether the green and Red/white tops the two wore were washed for kilometres down a river with no one to see them pass by, or they lay abandoned in the forest covered with leaves and twigs etc, or are in fact buried beneath earth, the odds are quite good that they DO still exist out there, even now as we sit here and talk about the two friends and what might have actually happened to them.
Nothing just disappears after all in these kind of places, not truly. So where are those two tops...?
Hi Thegw, I have not read about a Dutch autopsy report and a second opinion of the bone DNA testing. Considering the fact that during the searches, the bones of other people were also found, including a small child and an elderly native person, it does surprise me also that those bones weren't double checked by both countries. This seems standard procedure when a national dies abroad. Now there is always room for those few percentages of doubt. It was pretty suss that it took so long for everything to suddenly start showing up, over 2 months in. It coincides in my view with the realisation there that the parents aren't going to let go of the case or stop coming back again and again, without evidence of their daughters fate. Hence why suddenly the backpack was found in an inhabited area, as well as these few bones...
DeleteYeh the shoe, Pitti just refused to send it to the waiting pathologists for DNA testing. Adelita Coriat wrote about it, they were stunned that Pitti refused to send the shoes, on request of the pathologist. Anyone who still trusts the officials in this case and doesn't expect a cover up is.... very sweet I'd say.
Authorities were covering something up and they for a fact looked at the digital camera footage first, before sending it to the Dutch. All the opportunity in the world to mess around. EXIF data confirm this. On that date, the files were altered. Although a smart killer could also benefit from the camera being found... I believe the night photos were shot by a 3rd party and the phone calls after day 1 were also staged to create the missing girls (all alone in the forest) narrative. Don't forget that Boquete already had Alex Humphrey some years ago, who did vanish without a trace. Nothing has been found of him. To have suddenly three instead of one of such missing persons would not be in anyone's interest and not in Panama's either. Much better for tourism to make it out like the girls just walked too far and got lost.
True Dave, I sometimes think about those very bright and easy to recognize tops also.. Where are they now? How come nobody found them, but they did find a shoe 'buried almost under a tree'?
DeleteAlthough fanatic Losters will most certainly tell you that those t-shirts have long gone 'dissolved' in that hot wet jungle (even though it is a cool cloud forest in reality, with many farms, houses and open cattle spaces..)
HI Scarlet! This is the first time I have taken a serious hard look at the 'jungle' in these photographs, you did all the work several months ago! There's nothing much in the way of any new clues or evidence to be found in them but while I remain suspicious on some it is remarkable that once you realise most of them are at the wrong angle and need rotated they nearly all do make some sense, as the majority are in fact all showing one side of wherever this location is. The Photographer appears to be wedged into a tight space between the boulder and directly beneath the rockface. They are therefore limited in view to the face itself and the growth and treeline above it, and this is what most of the photographs are in fact showing us. What lies over the Boulder however is unclear as it doesn't appear the photographer ever rises. A detail that interests me is the number of photographs with flared light, something, a finger perhaps, caught in the flash and over the lens. A couple of these may well be the rain interacting with the flash to create this blinding effect, but it is clear most are actually a solid object. If you bear in mind the Camera has a telescopic lens that rises some way out this gets rather interesting, as the 'flared' photos once you rotate them correctly are all marked out by being Portrait format, with the camera being held vertically, and if you think on the way the camera would be held, with the firing button faced upwards, and the Flash on the right-hand side, the telescopic lens jutting out, and the resulting pictures all showing the obstruction is coming on the LEFT hand side, I have to ask HOW is this camera actually being held as the picture is taken? For a finger or hand to be obstructing both flash and lens seems very careless, odd. Lisanne and Kris had taken enough photographs with it to be very familiar with its basics, and while the conditions were not ideal it does intrigue me as to how and why so many of these photo's are semi-obstructed like this - Has Juan ever experimented on this do you know?
ReplyDeleteYeh it is very strange. I never have seen a finger-like object obstructing the lens in any way in their other photos. Juan did try to recreate it and when he used the exact same camera, at night, I believe even when it drizzled a bit outside, and held his finger slightly over the top corner of the lens, he came up with a similar result. Which does not entirely prove that it is in fact a finger we see in some photos. But it certainly could be. To me that points once again to a different photographer than Kris or Lisanne.
DeleteOne of the night shots shows Kris' hair, another the outline of Lisanne's jaw and profile. So who is taking these photos of them and the surroundings?
As for the exact composition of all the night shots, it does not completely interest me tbh. Because I think all the night shots are red herrings. Months of focusing on them has not brought us any closer to either the location where they were taken, nor the meaning behind them. A 3rd party made it look like Kris and Lisanne were out in the jungle alone, lost. When in fact, I believe they were taken, held and killed..
Crime or Misadventure...? Something that has affected the way I read what may have happened to the two friends is discovering the excellent Sattelite.Pro site, which offers astonishingly detailed and powerful arial views of the Pianista wilderness and the ability to zoom in in a way that leaves Google.maps far behind in terms of quality.
DeleteUsing it, studying the area and potential routes, really opened up my mind to the reality that this is a story that can be divided into two halves. The first act is the initial dissapearance on April 1st, and when I say disappearance that is exactly what happened to the two friends, although the Elvis Gonzales camp suggests their presence it remains unconfirmed, and so the two have literally dropped off the face of the earth, not got 'Lost'. But vanished.
So anything anyone can think of here is largey meanigless as there is almost nothing to go on after the final Photo of the day. Act Two however begins with the finding of the backpack, and here is really where the attention should be as by its discovery (planting) comes virtually everything we know - the remains, the phones, the camera, etc. It all springs from the finding of that backpack. And that point has long fascinated me as this part of the story is where it is all at: the backpack leads to the ramins discovery, Kris Kremers' shorts which have miraculously stayed in place in some eddy beside the river not far from the cable bridge, meanwhile we are to assume 97% of their remains have been washed away into oblivion... which when you study the route of the river on Sattelite.pro is a near absurdity really. A winding rubble strewm river would catch much of the remains along its channel, any flood powerful anough to wash away all of two bodies would certainly take a pair of shorts with it, and genographically if this had all washed down the river it should collect some remains at certain points. This is what happens on mountains and river channels - debris tends to funnel to certain points thanks to gravity and the geography, but all along the river and past Alto Romero no one notices all this human debris washing by, over at least several days...? I find this hard to believe to say the least. Something that also occured to me was that given the searchers found numous small fragments of bone, which turned out to belong to bodies from possible washed out graves of locals, it demonstrates that the search was reasonable thorough. If they found such small fragments like this, many years old, where is the rest of Kris and Lisanne...?
Act 1 is the disappearance, there is not all that much at all to say as there is virtually no hard evidence to be had, it is anyone's guess what happens after the final photo. Act 2 though is the discovery, and what we gain from it all is very reasonable grounds for suspicion.
Thank you Dave, that is indeed an excellent site and I already made some great screenshots from it in the past, of the places where Kris and Lisanne's remains were found along the river. I agree with you, the river is littered with rocks and it winds all over the place. It is unbelievable that entire bodies would be dragged away, never to be seen again, in such a winding bendy obstructed small river. The professionals agreed on this. They would in that case have found bodies or -parts stuck in bends.... Professionals stated the same, they found bodies in river bends who had been there for over a year. Intact bodies, despite of course being altered in appearance by decomposition. But it is unbelievable that those tiny rivers who go all over the place and have rocks everywhere, stunting flow of objects, could have made the bodies for 98% disappear the way they did. People also live alongside these small rivers, there are houses and farms nearby. The backpack was found by people working in the rice paddy next to the river, supposedly. So entire bodies floating by... exactly. Bodies with a 30.000 dollar reward, no less.
DeleteHere are some photos showing just how teeny tiny those rivers are. They also show just how much open terrain there was in this area. Just how many places where Kris and Lisanne - had they truly been lost by themselves - could have stood, waving their coloured shirts, signalling the helicopters which flew over this area many, many times. But the helicopter pilots saw nothing, no sign of the girls. These are the locations where the (few) bones were found close by:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kqoaq-l27ws/XvibeXvcaNI/AAAAAAAACoc/3QID7ZgAwDsd8yaomB9qvxDHK2bHkSOrQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Untitled-10.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MdW7ngKvffE/XvibeloFl3I/AAAAAAAACog/WEapQwrngf8wnES33ddL9jIjGuSvMuUwQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Untitled-11.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5ts41ji2roU/Xvibn7EdXQI/AAAAAAAACos/DxkI7T9WbUwHnadWeAdayUQzeKi4XMmlACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Untitled-13.jpg
Thanks for those images Scarlet! I have only a rough idea where the remains were found, and they may not be entirely accurate as the searchers were not going about their recovery efforts by satellite tracking or map references, but with a distance of around three kilometres from the bridge to Alto Romero there would need to be considerable flash-floods occurring to flush the complete remains so far downstream and out of all human sight. It doesn't really add up for me when looked at this closely.
DeleteQuite what the answer is here, whether there was foul play or someone scavenged the backpack from the remains, I can't even guess. But something is not right with the situation.
Even musing over the night-time Photographs again raises more doubts. I am able to assume '541 is a perhaps failed 'selfie' yes, in the dark and fumbling with the camera. But on the other hand even though it was raining and almost certainly pitch black she had already shown us in the days before that she was able to take perfect Selfie's and do so on a regular basis. Even on that night, in dark, pointing the camera towards herself, the shot should have been more direct and accurate than that odd misfire (and why not try again?). I do wonder looking at it whether the simpler fact is it isn't her face at all, but the same object (finger) that was creating the other similar obstructions and flares a few shots later... it's just logical in a way that it must be so. Because when you look to the only other shot of something human, Kris' hair, you see only another inconclusive image that actually doesn't show anything at all. There is nothing to suggest there is a head beneath that mass of chaotic hair. And as such I do join the doubters in holding this skepticism of those night-time photographs.
Родителям девочек смогу сказать Что же случилось с их Крис и Лисанн....
ReplyDeleteМожете ли вы также рассказать нам, что случилось?
DeleteРодителям Крис и Лисанн смогу сказать Что же случилось с их девочками на самом деле ....
ReplyDeleteHi Scarlet. Lots of things. Picture 77 lady has hands in pocket at start of trail head. Why ? It is all body language. At this point they are back fom il pianista and have met their captures only to be forced back again. Picture 340 all 6 rocks match exactly you are in the right place even though you think you were not.
ReplyDeleteNight photos: could it be possible that they are made by accidentally
ReplyDeletepushing on the button?
And about the bra's in the backpack: a lot of girls when going on a day trip wear bikinis and bring a bra for changing after swimming. The bottom will dry more quickly then a padded bra. And sometimes you change and sometimes you don't need it. Just in case.
What's more important: why didn't they make a tax message on the second day or later. The first day I can imagine that you don't want to worry your family unnecessary. But at the second day it's serious a problem. At least you do send some messages to inform people and ask for help.
That gives the impression that they could not use their phones by themself since Day 2
About the look/expressions on their face: I think not every photo is a perfect Instagram photo. Sometimes you smile too late or too early. I does not say anything about if somebody is worried, angry or sad.
When we first hear this in Holland, I was sure that they walk into the wrong people.
Interesting blog. Greetings Lily
Hi Lily
DeleteI don't think the night photos could have been taken by accident. There is no lens cap on the camera, you need to activate it to be able to take photos. And none of the photos seems taken in motion, or shows distorted vague photos. They all seem to be aimed at something in particular, and taken in the time frame of over three hours, often lifting the camera up towards the sky. Not something that is done by accident.
Very interesting point; I never heard the family of the girls or the host family mention their bikini's. I suspect that the parents received them back, together with the other clothes and belongings. But you are right, it would be good info to know. Did the parents get their bikini's, yes or no? The bra straps that were visible in the photos are most likely of bra's and not of bikini's. Same for the bra's which were seen in the police photo of the girls' backpack and belongings. They are the same as which they wore on the day of their hike, you can see the straps matching. But we do not know if they also brought bikini's along in their bag that day, which should then have gone missing in the meantime... If so then that would also point towards a possible swim that day, and towards things going wrong afterwards..
I agree, it is extremely strange and a break of her habits for Lisanne especially not to text her parents. To me it is one of the strong things pointing to crime. Same for the absence of any photos or videos for over a week, after disappearing. Lisanne would have had the wits to document the places they were along the way, if they really had gone lost. And most definitely left some clues for her parents as to what was happening. The fact that she didn't is the evidence in my opinion that the girls weren't free to do so. I agree, after day 1 I think someone else had the girls' phones and camera in his/her/their possession.
Ah, you are Dutch too? Me too. I honestly heard about the case on the NOS news, like mostly everyone else in the country, and I assumed that they got lost and kept walking in the wrong direction and perished from lack of food and water.. Then it took me a few years actually to hear about the new evidence from their camera and phone use and that information changed everything
best wishes Scarlet
I think tge wristband that was missing because Lissane used it for her hair. It's common to put the hairbands around our wrists. If you note her hair is loose while the the vand is around her wrist then her hair is tied when the band was gone around her wrist
ReplyDeleteCorrect!
DeleteWhy assuming that the girls only called 911? Maybe they sentva text to F.or the landlord/host since they don't know so many people. The school? I suspect them all. They all know something. Why tge host let people get into the girls' room? that alone put a red flag on her head to me. She should have called the police right away
ReplyDeleteDutch specialists looked through the phones and could determine which phone activity had taken place. All that was done with the phones, was try to call 911 and 112. Switch the phones on, then off again. There were no draft text messages written, no text messages attempted to be sent. No voice messages left behind. I mean, they could have changed their own voice message, informing anyone who tried to call them what had happened, but it seems they didn't come up with that idea unfortunately. Indeed, very strange that not once did they try to call their host family nearby. Not the school, not their parents. Nobody. And it's very well true that they all know something more, but are afraid to talk. Not even a 30.000 dollar reward made people talk.
DeletePlease consider translating your blig to Spanish. I have a feeling that you will get information from people who know things but can't talk
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that they got lost and couldn't be found looking at the surrounding area as it is not particularly remote and there are inhabitants in these areas that they were visiting. If they follow close to the river there's a big chance in encounter of huts and villagers since they farm nearby rivers.
I don't believe they were at the monkey bridge.
The night photos seem close to the waterfall and would be the third party taking the picture as the hands look stable enough with the still photos.If it were the girls taking it, with the state of mind at that time it must have been shaking.
The whole scenarios definitely a foul play.
I felt uncomfortable looking at Kris expression after the happy pictures on the summit as it is 360 degree different vibe you can certainly feel looking at it.
Somehow she was force into taking that photo shoots by someone and it might not be Lisanne that is taking the photo shoot after the happy photos of them.
The first time I looked at the photo where Kris is crossing the small stream which she is not facing the camera, the mud on her calf attracted my attention. It has been dry weather for some time there so when possibly that she can slip on her bottom to have that stain unless theoretically before that they have been trying to runaway or put some distance from someone in fear.
I think Kris would have been very careful with her steps if she is not being spook.
After the happy pictures, I wondered why there is no photo of Lisanne because it is Lisanne camera's and usually they will switch places to take solo pictures in beautiful scenery spot. Because Kris does not seem to have the moods of posing for pictures, she can actually took Lisanne photo instead. I don't think Lisanne would have coax Kris to take those photos when obviously Kris is not looking like she is in the mood to do so based on Lissane mannerism.
Also, why as many questions, why didn't the girls took more pictures along the way when there are so many nice view spots along the way if they move further on.
The third party must have force them to move on and took pictures of Kris to mislead investigators later on for the girls got lost scenarios.
The location findings of their backpack, jeans and bones are very bizzare indicates someone has planted it there.
The backpack and jeans look too clean for it to carry by someone lost in the jungle for even several days. Who washes a backpack first before giving it to the authorities? When the first thing to do is just pass it straight away to the police when all villagers is surely aware about the missing girls.
I don't buy the wild animals theory, the cats are usually shy being and hide themselves. They have many foods there when they are cattles grazing without any much problems by the villagers living close by. Especially no one blog about wild life encounter in that area so the possibility is quite low. Not even monkey pictures available caught by explorer in that area that many.
It did came into my mind if there's possibility that Kris was forced to give her PIN code number, did Osman the one who knew the PIN and later when his so called drowning accident death, the other members don't know the correct PIN.
If they went swimming with the boys, something piqued my curiosity with the photo with the boys. The water is not shallow as the boys are standing with only waist deep. Also the girls are very tall but the girls were instead crouching in the water and you can only see their neck above. Does this have any relations with the neatly folded bras found in the backpack?
See pictures 507 and 508, Kris has mud on her legs, arm, and shorts. it looks like she has fallen down or struggled. She looks very upset.
ReplyDelete13:37, thats how hackers say that it was hacked. 1337 means leet.
ReplyDelete//ihomp
There may be significance/clues in many of the numbers as well. Is this what you mean? LEET (1337) is a written language or cipher used in online gaming, e-mails, text messaging, tweeting, and other electronic communication. The root of the term "leet" is the word "elite"--translated as 31337--and 1337 was initially developed as an exclusionary language: a way to encode text so that messages could only be read by the initiated.
Delete- Who took the night photos?
ReplyDeleteThe girls, this is the only explanation. It makes no sense at all for
anybody else to spend 4 hours at night clicking away to somehow proof an
accident. 2 photos or no photos would have been just as good. Lets not
forget they were abducted by a jungle dweller and not by some
sophisticated western serial killer.
- Why did they take the photos?
The photos show UP, you can see the UNDERSIDE of leaves and trees. So
the photos point UP a steep rock wall. They also show a pretty elaborate
SOS setup (respect to the pringles can mirror, i would not have had that
idea).
Why would they make this setup? It makes little sense to do this if you
are trying to walk to safety. So why not walk to safety after having
tried this for several days?
They COULD NOT. Which brings us to the reason for those pics. They slid
down that rock wall and could not climb back up! They were probably
trapped on a ledge or between the river and the rock wall. So they
could NOT leave there. The toilet paper markers would not last long in
wind and rain and they were probably made not long before the pics were
taken.
The pics show the way they came/slid down. For reasons for them to see
or document it. By the way it makes even less sense for a murderer to
set up that SOS setup and signal twig. Especially not since we are
talking about some uneducated local guys. Another reason they took those
pics is if they were taken JUST after they slid down, because the flash
would have been the only way to illuminate their surroundings and the
camera screen could not do that. That is why lighting up a path with a
flash makes no sense but lighting up a high wall makes sense. Another
reason to take those pics is that if they were stuck there, one dead and
the other panicked it was just a nervous thing to do to distract from
the situation.
re: the night photos
DeleteThere's a good reason for the use of the camera at night -- they needed a light. Using the flash on the camera would save the battery in the phone. The light from the flash only lasted for an instant, so they had to shoot in rapid succession to get as much light as possible. Maybe it was to light the way forward in the dark, so she'd take one photo to light the way for a few feet, take a few steps forward, then take another photo to guide the next few steps. To see an example of people doing this, check out the movie 'Blair Witch Project'. You can see all the many ways they use the flashbulb from the camera to search for things in the dark, or light their way forward in the dense brush at night.
But besides lighting, there are other reasons they might've needed a light at night. Maybe to scare off a wild animal, or maybe to alert a plane or vehicle they might've heard in the distance, hoping the plane might see the quick flash from the sky. Another possibility is they dropped the phone, then in a panic raced around in the dark using the light from the flash of the camer to try to find it before it got soaked.
The girls being on a ledge between a rockwall and the river explains
ReplyDeleteanother issue: Bones in the water at the same spot which is only likely
if they ended up in the water at similar time. So maybe they fell off
that ledge when trying to get away through the river or when they died
and the bodies fell down.
The photo of Kris head is shown because she hit her head when she fell.
The fall from the ledge also explains the broken pelvis. So maybe Kris
got hurt badly with a head and hip injury. This may also be the reason
why they stayed even if they could have gotten off the ledge. There are
also pics we dont have that the family doesnt release. Why dont they?
Because they show the girls either naked or gored. They would have no
issue releasing a few more night shots but wont any with the girls or
parts thereof. The missing pictures also dont show that it was murder
but just show girls or injuries because otherwise the families would not
have OPPOSITE opinions of the cause of death. So lets say there is
another pic of Kris with a head wound or broken face or open leg injury,
it doesnt proof murder but they wont release that kind of gore.
I dont know how easy pelvis bones break but I think a fall from that
rock wall on a rock would do. It is not likely that a 3rd party would
have broken the pelvis. If murdered they would have gotten dismembered
but you usually just remove head and limbs, maybe split the spine but
dont bother breaking pelvis bones. also no animal did this so I think
the pelvis injury is a true fall.
Do I think this was all an accident / getting lost? No this makes no
sense! BUT it was a combination of both! They ran or were abducted from
someone, were hurt/injured and then got away and THEN got lost in the
jungle. They may have been taken to a place further in the jungle where
they could not find their way back.
The photos on the peak with the thumbs up are very untypical and
ReplyDeleteindicate they were with that one guide who does the thumbs up.
Why did the cops not admit it was murder/fishy? They dont care and didnt
want an issue with the dutch and also not with tourism so the cops
manipulated a lot of that exif data and might have deleted the image or
the people who dropped the backpack deleted the image. The cops or
abductors would also have deleted ALL images that showed the girls,
maybe with injuries. This explains why there arent pictures of them or
injuries. There is one image of Kris maybe with injury. If you have
4h you would have taken more, just they got deleted. By the way just
because the cops didnt arrest anybody or didnt admit murder doesnt mean
they didnt fuck up some of the perpetrators. The cops might have just
gone and killed some of the perps (well some ended up dead, although it
doesnt have cop hand writing on it)
The fact that the cops DID COVER UP is proof that there was murder,
otherwise they would have released whatever they had as clear evidence
of an accident and moved on.
So the backpack was taken from the girls when they were captured or when
they were found dead or near dead after their escape. Obviously this
backpack didnt sit in a river for months.
Another comment I like to make unrelated to this is that it was most
likely Kris who dragged the shy Lisanne to panama to her death. It was
Kris who wanted to be in south america, I dont think Lisanne had any
plan to go there.
Lastly, how smart were they really? The fact that they took one water
bottle for two on a hike in the jungle is gross negligent. And the fact
that they never even did so much as zoom with their camera also is
questionable about their awareness.
Hi Matt
Deletethanks for your thoughts. Interesting to read.
Yes I keep that option open as well. The murder scenario with the detail that Kris and Lisanne managed to escape their captors for a short time, which is when they made the night photos. Maybe to see better in the dark because they were afraid, maybe in the hope of flashing someone's attention, of there were people looking for them by chance at that time at night.
But then they must have been caught again by a 3rd party. It cannot be that by natural processes their bodies ended up the way they did. Because the forensic evidence points against it. So if a fall in a ravine is claimed, then the shoes, clothing, the backpack and its delicate content for instance are supposed to show some signs of this. Which is not the case. Shoes looked brand new when found, the jeans shorts had no damage or slip marks and the backpack was intact, dry, clean and everything inside was intact, incl delicate items like sunglasses and mobile phones.
The bodies were not found in a ravine, also. These few bones were found in inhabited terrain 14 walking hours up north. In an area with houses and where people live. Yet, they never asked anyone for help there supposedly. Just dropped their backpack and...?There are no ravines there and the bones were found on flat terrain, some bones behind or almost under trees. If Kris broke her pelvic in two during the escape, she could never have walked all that way, and neither could Lisanne with the kind of terrible foot fracture her left foot was found with. If they were trapped somewhere then that is where their remains should have been found.
Plus; those few bones were found in such a state, and with so little of them being found. Only the bones of Lisanne's left leg were found; only half a pelvic bone and a rib bone from Kris. They were scattered together over a larger area. It was not so that one body's bones were found further away than the other. No, they were found scattered around together. With Lisanne's remains in an early stage of decomposition and those of Kris in a late stage of decomposition. No animal markings, claws, teeth.This all contradicts a natural cause of death. If the river had transported their bodies, the bag would have shown signs of this and the bodies would have been found in one of the many river bends. Besies, the coroner clearly and officially stated that the bone marrow in the bones was all dry. Those bones could not have been in water for long, therefore.
There is also no natural explanation for the phosphates on Kris' bones. Nor of the finding of a rolled up ball of skin from Lisanne's leg, 5 months (!) after they disappeared. Again, in a very early stage of decomposition, virtually intact still. The pathologist was very clear; it was stored somewhere cool, NOT in the jungle all that time. It points all to human intervention unfortunately..
And despite guides and locals talking about possible positive identifications of the night photo spot, nobody, ever, delivered any evidence. Nobody came forward, online, with photos of such a spot, matching the pretty distinct rocks and V-shaped tree there. Unless people back up their words with visual evidence, it is pretty useless hear say, unfortunately.
Thanks for your thoughts!Best wishes Scarlet
to be honest I dont know how much I trust the autopsy findings but talking about phosphates does not support the lost hikers theory so for them to admit to phosphates, it must be true. Phosphates probably come from fertilizer (didnt F have a coffee farm?)
ReplyDeleteThe sequence of events would be:
Hike - Capture - Escape - Death or re capture - Death
If they escaped it would be easy for the captors to find them. It does not explain how they took their camera on other items they had on the escape, assuming it was rushed. Unless they were able to just grab their backpack and run.
The capture theory also explains the gap of pictures (besides captures or cops deleting them, they stopped taking pics when they were captured and only restarted when they escaped and ended up on the rock ledge. At this point they died or were re captured and then died. Otherwise they would have taken more pics.
The captured and death theory also answers one other huge issue with the lost theory: Why there arent any messages to the family.
They were either captured and therefore couldnt take messages and when they escaped they had no time before they died or were re captured.
Once re captured and killed or died and found by captors the captors would have to get rid of the bodies... So buried in in fertilized soil or dissolved with lye makes sense.
One reason for the different stages of decomposition is that Kris probably died earlier or was killed earlier and buried earlier.
It is possible that Kris died after the night pics were taken and then Lisanne was captured and kept alive for a few weeks and then killed.
I see an issue with the foot in the shoe though. If she was captured it makes no sense she was killed with shoes on. Lets face it ... the reason to capture 2 young women is to rape them... you would not leave their shoes on and eventually kill them....
Unless they stumbled on a drug operation and were "just killed" for that.
There are so many unanswered questions and nothing really makes sense.
Yes I agree, it is a good theory.
DeleteAlthough I think the girls went swimming after their hike and then were pictured with the local youth and the group they were with there kidnapped them when they promised to take them home. But either way, they were taken at some point in time and indeed, a week long hostage situation (nobody asked for money for their release, so I think the motive was sexual) and then in the night of April 8th they may have escaped. And that would explain the odd night photos and the week long absence of any photo taking.
Things that don't quite add up yet then are:
-how come there were so many, daily attempts to call emergency services, or checks for a signal? Did the captors allow them to keep their phones? In this day and age, and also back in 2014, nobody forgets that young western women carry cellphones. Were the girls making those call attempts, or a 3rd party, staging them as if the girls were out there in the wild?
-Why did the night photos contain no messages, no videos with messages, no selfies? Or maybe they were there but investigators or the 3rd party went through the photos and took away anything that contradicted or that disproved a lost in the wild scenario But during those hours when they escaped, supposedly, they could have written a draft message, or recorded or wrote down something in their phones, or recorded something in their camera, something hidden which couldn't be easily found by others...
Kris may have died earlier yes, but on Lisanne's bones no fertilizer was found. You would still assume that after (a later) death, they would have treated her body the same as Kris? The foot in the boot was also broken in many places. It may have been hard to take the shoe off after that...
I agree the motive was most likely sexual and to a smaller probability elimination of witnesses.
DeleteI dont think anybody besides the girls called 911, although that doesnt fit with the capture theory (I think the timing doesnt align). It makes no sense for the captors to stage 911 calls, I dont see a point, especially not so many. Also consider the captors were likely locals and not educated serial killers.... It is possible that the captors were so dumb that they left the phones in the girls reach. Either because they are dumb or knew there is no reception, but even the dumbest captor wouldnt take that risk. It is possible the girls had access to the phones and made these calls when their captor went back to work (I think the calls all align to before or after noon).
The night photos did not contain selfies because:
- they were deleted (in this case they must have been very revealing)
- the girls didnt have time to take any before they were captured again or fell
If they escaped from their captors they would have run until they were in safety and sure they lost their captors, then after hours or a day they might have recorded messages. They either died or were captured before that happened :(
To be honest I dont see the point for dissolving the bodies with fertilizer. Its not like anybody would find them if dumped in the jungle or buried. Also possible the phosphate was just by chance because she was buried in heavily fertilized soil. OR different people buried them. One guy might have been a pro and dissolved the body while the other was an amateur.
I have heard about this case over a youtube video today. I am utterly sorry for what happened to those two poor young ladies. I however find something quite weird; there may have been some discussion on this which I could have well missed, but I wonder what others think as to the fact that there is no video/footage in the camera? Isn't that quite strange? Someone who has injured but able to take night time photos with that injury could have as well shot a video ? Or a self photo? any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteHi, thanks for reading here. Yes I and many people (but not everyone) agree that it is very strange that the girls suddenly stopped using their digital camera for a whole week.. They took so many photos before, every single day. Maybe they were taken hostage and couldn't take photos. Also, we don't know for a fact that they didn't because technically, the photo card may have been worked on and vital photos or even videos may - technically - have been removed by a 3rd party. Same for the phones; it is possible that there were in fact draft messages stored in there which could then have been removed by whomever found the bag or first worked with the phones and camera. And it wasn't the Dutch prosecution, but the Panamanians who first looked into everything.
DeleteI wrote a lot about this here also: https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/
Hi, Scarlet! I have been infected with coronavirus for 30 days today. And the only thing making me survive is reading this mysterious event on your blog. Thank you so much for all the research.
DeleteI dunno why but I am interested in some rumors that Kris was seen alive by several people. This one should certainly be investigated further in my mind.
Just couple of things I have...
-Who really needs to stage night photos? It would be much easier and better to get rid of all the facts.
May be, they were eaten by kind of cannibal clans? I don't know those places in Panama, so I am not sure whether there are cannibals or not.
But, cannibalism theory somehow explains why just a pelvis bone left only...
Wonder if they had a tiff and one of them went off by herself and the other followed later and both got lost separately but in more or less the same area. Kris is definitely not happy and I wonder if these shots were taken when she decided to stomp off for some reason. In the photos she could be looking back at Lisanne who is try to remonstrate with her. Lisanne may have had a ‘turn’ ( sounds like she was a little unstable at times) or maybe they were more than ‘friends’ and had an ‘lovers’ quarrel. It seems that more is know about all the other contenders than the main participants.
ReplyDeleteVery sad story. All i can say, that it can happen, that you get lost. Faster than you'd like. A few weeks ago, i got lost myself with my son in the german "Schwarzwald" forest. I never thought, that this could happen to myself. At the beginning of the hike, we followed the marked hiking trail. Nevertheless, I later lost my way! There later where no marks anymore to fallow. And gues what: i had no signal on my cellphone.. But i was still convinced, i was walking in the right direction, what later turned out to be a big mistake! Fortunately, I found a way out of the forest after hours. At the end we were about 8 miles away from the initially intended destination.
ReplyDeleteSo when I think about those two young girls, that whent out there, in the unknown Panama jungle like area, I can imagine very well, that they could have gotten lost. It's also quite possible, that later someone found the backpack and took it home. Then, after "they" heard about the disappearing case, brougth it back near the bridge.
Regards
Daniel
The simplest explanation is often the correct one. These two adults went on a hike/trek/afternoon walk totally unprepared - no water, inadequate clothing, and basically no idea of the risks involved.
DeletePosters here have said ‘it’s not a real jungle /there are tracks/impossible to get lost etc etc...Just look on google earth and see how much jungle there is. As you found out it is very easy to get lost in any kind of jungle/bush and people even get lost where there are clearly delineated paths. Once you wander off the ‘beaten track’ it is just a matter of time before you can become disorientated and unsure of your position. Panic would set in and when the sun sets, the biting insects come out , it gets colder ( even more so if it’s raining) and darkness can bring out all sorts of creatures. All they had on were tank tops and hot pants - not exactly appropriate.
Not a great situation for these two especially as they had no experience in this at all. Darkness also brings out primeval fears and every tiny sound is amplified.
The pack could have been found at a later date and as you say the contents placed in a prominent location where it was found.
Hi Daniel, thanks for sharing your experience here. It's true, accidents can happen to anyone, we can all get lost and panic and be in trouble. In this Kris and Lisanne case however, the problem is how they stayed lost for as long as they did. The girls would have been found normally during those 2+ months (!) of searching. We're talking about a relatively small, inhabited area here, with open fields, cattle, farms and a well traveled hike trail. Even if you'd want to, you would be hard-pressed to walk that route to Bocas and not meet a single soul along the way. So I think it is an easy cop out for the official in panama to just blame the girls themselves for being ill prepared, for not responding to helicopters flying over (and with all those open areas and open river beds, these girls WOULD definitely have waved with their brightly coloured t-shirts if they really were there waiting for help). This jungle in Boquete is not the same as the vast jungles of the Amazon for instance. I added many maps and satellite images, the area is really small in comparison and has villages, cattle fields, farms and the likes. Of course there is jungle, but you need to ask yourself; is this the sort of terrain where you can stay 'lost' for 8 whole weeks? The ravine theory is debunked, their remains weren't found in or even near a ravine. No, they were found as good as next to a village.. Just like the bag. That in itself should raise some serious doubts about this whole lost/accident scenario.
DeleteEsm war kein Unfall, es war Mord!! Ein grauenhafter, skrupelloser Mord. Und bis sie letztendlich starben, haben sie Hollenqualen erlitten. Und das von den Scherpen von Ingrid! Sie hat alles geplant und ins rollen gebracht. Nicht zum ersten mal! Schade um so zwei junge Leben, die noch alles vor sich hatten!
ReplyDelete
DeleteVielen Dank für Ihren Kommentar. Leider muss ich zustimmen. Dieser Fall stinkt und die offizielle Geschichte zittert auf allen Seiten vor Unlogik. Wir haben noch keine offizielle Erklärung von Ingrid gehört, warum die Mädchen vom Personal der Kinderschule weggeschickt wurden. Wie kommt es, dass Ingrid und ihre Mitarbeiter ihren Job nicht gemacht haben? Wie kommt es, dass sie nach monatelangen Vorbereitungen nicht einmal einen einfachen Termin für die Freiwilligenarbeit bekommen konnten? Wer war am Ende schuld daran? Ingrids oder waren die Mitarbeiter der Kinderschule nicht vertrauenswürdig? Keine Erklärungen. Aber genau das hat Kris und Lisanne auf die Spur des Todes gebracht. Sie hätten an diesem Dienstag, dem 1. April, mit kleinen Kindern spielen und nicht in den Dschungel gehen sollen, um eine Wanderung zu unternehmen.
*****
Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately I have to agree. This case stinks and the official story shakes with illogicality on every side. We have not heard an official explanation yet from Ingrid, why the girls were sent away by the staff of the children's school. How come Ingrid and her staff didn't do their job? How come after months of preparations, they couldn't even get a simple appointment for volunteer work sorted? Who's fault was this, in the end? Ingrids or were the staff at the children's school untrustworthy? No explanations. But this is what set Kris and Lisanne on the trail to death. They should have been playing with small children that Tuesday April 1st, not head into the jungle for a sightseeing hike.
Lots of choices of who may have guilt or participation in this and Ingrid is at the top of the list along with the various creepy men.
DeleteI have read your blogs with great interest. Lost a bit of sleep actually and felt scared at night too.
ReplyDeleteI do believe they got lost , were found by someone with ill intent, and then killed.
I am confused by the swimming photo. I can't say I can recognize the girls from that photo.
I believe they got up to the summit rather late in the afternoon, according to witnesses from the school, the taxidriver etc. They went too far, dark fell and they got lost.
Maybe someone found them that first night,and took their phones. Or for some reason the kept walking in the wrong direction, and walked out of the search area within a day or two.
I just had a thought regarding the night photos.
What if the girls (or girl if one was dead), saw lights from a house in the distance, and tried to signal for help? Or heard people nearby. They would have had to have been on higher ground than a possible house. No point flashing if noone can see you.. But what if they saw a house?
And what if someone saw them,but had no intention of saving them?
Thanks for your comment Anja. Yes I fully understand, I had that same problem initially.. I was afraid at night in the dark suddenly, and kept trying to imagine what the girls would have felt like during their days and hours of distress. I'm afraid I have to agree with you. I do think they ran into the wrong people and were kept against their will, then killed :(
DeleteThe swimming photo came with the leaked night photos. The parents themselves only released 3 night photos, then Lisanne's brother released another and Jeremy Kryt a 5th. But that was it. Until someone from Boquete anonymously leaked a whole batch of the night photos and this swimming photo was also among them. Named as the Sabroson photo, who was already a person of interest in this case. I think they are all legit. But I understand that some people think it is too grainy and vague to be certain about it being Kris and Lisanne. I myself am 99,9% certain it are them, their physical characteristics just match too well.
Problem with the times of the hike, is that on the one hand we have the time settings of the camera and the analysis of the shade/sun angle and they both say the girls left for their hike around 11:00 am and were at the summit at 13:00. But then you have the contrasting witness statements from the taxi driver and from other people who saw the girls much later on that mountain. It's a big mess, this whole investigation.
Yeh that is a possibility. They would have to signal for over 3 hours though and very very often and systematically. I am not sure anyone who was weak and distressed would keep the flashing up for that long, if it was just to notify someone, but it is possible I guess. If someone saw them, it was not a help and rescue group, they weren't out in the dead of night ...
No way these girls, who were obviously addicted to selfies/texting/writing down and very attached to their parents, hadn't used their phones or camera except for few attempting 911 calls and 90 batshit crazy night photos after ONE WEEK wandering into the wild. Whatever happened to them, even in a lost scenario (hardly to believe at this point) happened real quick, on day 1 or 2 they were incapacitated, dead, or taken by a 3rd party. The interaction with phones and camera after those days is not made by the girls.
ReplyDeleteThanks, I agree. No photos for a whole week, no attempts to call their parents, not once was the boyfriend texted or called. Either they died very quick indeed, or they were held and kept from using their phones and camera
Delete-When looking at the written times for the night time pictures, I noticed a pattern, 3 would be taken approx 20 seconds apart, then 3 would be taken approx 10 seconds apart, etc. (Roughly) together with the fact the pictures dont make sense and are in the same place, it looks like an attempted but shaky SOS signal?
ReplyDelete- in the picture of Kris with her hand on her hip, the image with altered brightness, look above her in the trees over her right shoulder, JUST within the red circle. Am I seeing things? I dont know. Looks like a person crouched or hanging in the trees with their hand out to the left. This is hardly visible at all without the image being edited.
- I always wonder why there are no photos of lisanne after the summit but a more worried looking Kris appears 3 or 4 times then the photos stop.. I do believe they met with someone for sure but I dont know where. Maybe on the way back down? Perhaps they felt they were being followed or knew they were and lisanne turned and took some weird zoomed out pictures, kris pretending to pose and act normal but trying to document or show something without drawing attention.
- I know that I would have recorded numerous texts, videos, notes and letters in my phone and taken photos of myself and any injuries if I was stuck, alone with my friend in the jungle. I would have had numerous points where I became desperate and tried calling emergency every 6 seconds and texting my parents and writing on my email account, etc. I find it a really strange and significant fact that no trace of this was on any of the devices. I think perhaps some of the first distress calls were them, and their phones were taken at some point and someone else was doing it to set up a scene of them being lost.
- Did Lisanne escape after a week of captivity somewhere with Kris' phone (since it was the only one with battery), taking the camera or even the whole bag and trying to run away with her foot crushed? Or was this escape when she actually injured her foot? Running through the jungle at night.
Was Kris already dead at this point or did they escape together but she fell and broke her pelvis? Lisanne could have made it 2 days running away, trying to phone emergency, and lastly she tried to signal an SOS with the camera flash when she couldn't go any longer and got herself caught again by whoever took her. Did they cut her foot off so she would not be able to get away away again? That would explain why it was found relatively fresh.
This case so horrifying.
Hi,
Deleteyeh those photo times of the night photos are quite something special. Very unusual. I personally think all figures looming in the distance in these photos are figments of our imagination. I do see what people mean sometimes, with sitting male figures, crouching figures, dog contours and such. But because these photos aren't super HD quality, the pixels do tend to blow up and distort a bit when you zoom in too much. It brings the risk of pareidolia..
Yeh I agree with your analysis. It is indeed odd that no more photos of Lisanne were taken after the summit and I also feel they were either followed already at this point, or were with someone who led them along. Or that they returned soon after and went swimming (= swimming photo) with people who then proved to be their downfall. It is incredibly unbelievable to me also that for all those days, over a week in fact, neither of the girls stored any draft message, any explanation in some way or form in their phones or digital camera for their loved ones. Lisanne was crying for her parents just a few days before she went missing. She really missed them and wanted to be home again with them. I do not believe, full stop, that she would not leave some message for them if she had the ability to. The reason she nor Kris left something behind has to lay in the fact that they weren't free to do so. All the excuses Accident believers come up with sound ultra lame to me. Like; they didn't want to worry their parents. Or: they had more pressing matters to deal with. No no and no, when you are out there for 11 days and you are petrified enough to keep calling emergency services, you will at some point try to call your parents. Especially girls at that age
Just a thought..
ReplyDeleteFor the night pics,
1.Could it be the girls had lost ownership of their personal items only from 3Apr onward (since it was then the dialing of emergency no. on their handphones stopped)..
2. The perpetrator(s)found the camera with critical information (eg they were in the pics or it showed where they went) and sought to delete the pics (from 508 onward)
3.They did so by using computer (?) to delete pics from 508 onward, but as it could still be retrievable, they had to overwrite the card --> by taking lots of pics (from wherever they are, with the 2 girls still held captive)??
Side note:
The 2 photos IMG_102-0550, IMG_0599-89 from juan's album (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaDcK-zyudR_UXP4xNvvSpKhbEUNHFkl1cvaGaZrvkiKqkgSL0BK5mjUL2SGcDjw?key=UjkzUHpsRmtLNUc2RlphdjVTWHRZSVEySjNYS0NR) can be collaged together.
IMG_0599-89 have to be rotated cw 90deg, and its bottom will match to the top part of IMG_102-0550.
Hi Bean
Deleteyeh I think that could be a good explanation indeed. I do believe they had no full ownership over their phones and camera from roughly day 2 onwards. If they did, they likely would have tried calling their parents at some point, instead of continuing to call a Dutch emergency number. There were many fingerprints and DNA traces found on their belongings including those phones, who knows who handled them at some point. Photo 509 must have captured something or someone who did not want to be identified. The file is placed in a critical place in the overall photo sequence. It is no accident or coincidence that exactly this file is missing, without as much as a trace. Yeh maybe they copied the original content of the card onto another one but left photo 509 out. Or they formatted the memory card while storing its content elsewhere, and left file 509 out when they put the photos back on the now formatted memory card? Even taking a lot of photos would not have overwritten that file I believe. The memory card wasn't full, it had space left.
Thank you for the additional info on the collage!
Fascinating and I admire Scarlet and others who've done all this work. What made me comment was the following news item regarding monkeys in Malaysia that found a lost phone and accidentally took photos with it. I don't mean to be funny about the sad loss of the girls but I wonder if the tree canopy photos are the result of monkey business: https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-pacific-54157459
ReplyDeleteThanks!
DeleteI hope and pray that this case be solved someday. Kris and Lisanne deserves justice. I feel so bad on how for the poor ladies might have suffered out there alone all by themselves
ReplyDeleteI would like to say this. I do not think that the cartel or big gang members like that would waste their time and change the pictures The Times actually change the look of the picture, Erasing the video that proves that they are at a cafe at a certain time period. Cleaning off bones. Folding shorts. Making everything look nice when the cops take it. I mean you might as well put a fucken bow on it. Everything else they did shows that they don't want to be caught and they will do what it takes. People like the cartel don't waste their time by trying to do that, THINK About it. They just kill the person clean up the body and move on. I think this was local a local gang. Whoever did this to those girls were very elaborate and thought out. of course they had months with their bodies. Still having access to a body after that period of time and it actually shows that it was fresh decomposition, Tells me that the girls were most likely alive for awhile. Also, maybe nobody heard anything because they were either by a waterfall which would muffle your screams or maybe they were inside of a car they couldn't go in you or they could do whatever they wanted but they were being held in confined. They're easier to manage in a car rather than a huge space where they could run around. And when you're in a car there's nothing you can do but wait while the driver takes you wherever he wants. Lastly, the pic of Kris's hair, i have to say, it looks like her hair is laying over something. In that section her hair looks like she's got way more volume which tells me there's something probably underneath her hair lifting it up. I won't even comment on the face that I can see underneath the hair that I am sure as either a picture that's been faded into the hair (more computer manipulation) or it's an actual face underneath her hair and that's how they fell? Ok, i am done. Good day.
ReplyDeleteTrue Zelda. It was mainly because the actual pathologist coroner in this case keeps stating that he believes the girls were victims or organ trafficking, that I even contemplate professional cartels. But I agree with you, these well oiled machines don't fuss about with cat and mouse games with the police. For such people a few murders more or less is no big deal and they have more pressing matters to deal with than hanging around a jungle at night, faking night photos. I think so too. I much more suspect a couple of local players. Not professionals. A local gang indeed, who had personal things at stake with this whole investigation and international media attention. The tour guide(s) know what happened and who were behind all this, some are covering up for them I believe.
DeleteThey may have been helped by someone intelligent enough to throw investigators off track. Although I believe Betzaida Pitti had no intention whatsoever to put them to the test or to even properly investigate and do the research by the book. So it was a home game really, easy peasy.
Those remains had to be found, just as the backpack, to make it clear to the parents that the girls were dead. To ensure that their ongoing search operations, months after the girls went missing, would stop. It doesn't take an Einstein to plant a backpack and a few bones which don't provide a cause of death to a coroner. It was no Einstein who did this anyway, because the bag and its content was covered in different fingerprints and DNA. they were lucky that Betzaida was put onto the case, as she just didn't put them through a database. She also helped them by not looking for hairs or dna from the girls in the houses and finca's of these guides or people of interest. No interrogations of people either, aside from a short interview with the kids from the local gang. But they were released again. So it was no perfect crime at all, they would have been caught early on by the FBI if they had been put on this case. In fact, the FBI DID in fact write at some point that they found a connection between the killing of Catherine Johannet, a mere 35 kilometers up north, and the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne. But once they solved their case, they let go of our dead girls, unfortunately.
Exactly, the fact there was afresh ball of skin from Lianne found 5 months after she went missing says enough. Just like her foot, hardly decomposed, found 6 weeks later, while Kris' remains were so far decomposed that the bones looked bleached. Anyone who does not see this as suspicious needs their brains checked imo. These remains were found in the same rough area, not in water, lying in the same jungle with the same weather conditions, humidity and such. Humans interfered and planted those remains, it's as simple as that I believe.
Yeh the water mist in the night photos may have been mist from a waterfall yes, that is possible and like you say, the sound would muffle their cries. But those waterfalls are tourist attractions and with the good weather at the time, I don't believe they could have been there longer than one night. Or people would have found them there. I think they were held somewhere away from the Pianista area and maybe one escaped at some point. But flashing the camera for hours on end is a secure way for your hunters to find you again....
Yes I see what you mean, I am undecided myself over that night hair photo. You do see things underneath it. A face? Another person? I just am not sure... It may theoretically even be her decapitated head (ughhh) with her hair flipped over it :(
Hi, I have a theory - and it is just a theory - that two gangs might be involved: i) a bunch of young, wannabe gangsters including at least one very violent psychopath and, ii) some professional cartel of people- and organ traffickers. One of the wannabees may well have a connection (like a friend or family member) that is in the big league. The idea is that the girls may have already met the younger lads either in Bocas or in Boquete and, after hiking, gladly accepted a lift from them near Casa Pedro or Il Pianista Restaurant and then went with them in thier red pick-up to Caldera Hot Springs (as Juan suggests). They were all having a good time when their psychopathic friend turned up. He decides to take them captive and rape them. They are then held in a cabin somewhere or a cave. One of the young gang members, high on drugs, takes all those night pictures and the one of Kris's hair. The girls are then handed over to a cartel. After that .... who knows! The other theory is that there is no Cartel involved at all, just the wannabe gang.
DeleteThe question of the decomposition could have several explanations: that they were kept alive for a long time after the initial kidnap or that, if dead, their bodies were kept in cold storage somewhere (possibly even to fulfil someone's sick fantasy). The backpack and contents were also carefully kept somewhere - maybe as a trophy by some psychopath? Just an idea.
The other thing is that the boys in the photo at Caldera Hot Springs (as presented in Juan's photo album) both died in mysterious circumstances (and no one knows who the third one who took the photo was) another one of their friends, Edwin, has also disappeared without a trace. The taxi driver who gave Kris and Lisanne a ride up on their last day also died very strangely. An American expat blogger about the case also died. Recently, Boquete (and the whole Chiriquí area) has become a very high-crime area with numerous rapes, murders and disappearances including women, children and even an ex-policeman!
Furthermore, just to the south of Boquete, in David, there is a car dealership that has links to prostitution and organ trafficking.
Personally, I think unless someone confesses to the crime, slips up in a future crime .... or if a disgruntled ex-partner spills the beans, we shall never know what happened on that day 7 years ago because one by one all the witnesses died off!
Hi Scarlet, thanks for being so dedicated to this case of Lisanne and Kris. As much as I understand and respect the privacy of the parents to help them move on, I feel that it is very important that individuals like you strive for the truth without taking advantage of the deceased in any way. I admire that quality.
ReplyDeleteI also think along with some posters on here, that the big cartels don't waste time on this petty stuff and make you disappear when needed. The only times I've seen them do otherwise is when they need to send a strict message to someone and they are very graphic and blatant in that respect, but that is the type of world and business they are in. They certainly would not use Feliciano as their spokesperson either. He talked too much.
As for the police they did a poor job and most likely the higher ups just wanted to protect the bigger picture of the tourism industry and its impact on their economy. Other countries might also do the same when it comes down to money.
With respect to Lisanne and Kris, I think they were lured somewhere where they could not be heard, maybe by young people who might be slick at getting people to trust them. The girls were not as street smart in a place like Panama.
Upon realizing that the game was up they tried to get away or maybe just something dreadful happened there and needed to move quickly. Maybe that vague photo in the pool of water I forget, Caldera was it?
If I have to question anyone my first suspect would be Feliciano the guide for simply entering the girls' room without their permission, and then see where that leads me. It's amazing how casual the police took this then.
So I think either he or someone who is very knowledgeable in the trails is hiding something someone did or that he did himself. From all the reviews online about Feliciano and interviews, etc I have read he probably even knows shortcuts or secret routes. He has a coffee farm some minutes away from the trail maybe and I wonder if that was a place to search so every stone was turned so to speak.
Since Lisanne's remains were not fully decomposed, while Kris's was bleached it leaves me thinking in terms of whether or not someone didn't get enough time to dissolve the bodies properly or in time. It wasn't natural decomposition or bleaching as I think it takes much longer in the sun and needs higher temperatures especially if the bodies were destroyed in the water.
So back to Feliciano, he would have to also manage his time in front of the media, with the search party, etc. Very busy guy during those initial weeks and months since the poor girls disappeared. Do maybe he didn't have enough time to dispose of the bodies. The reward money was almost too much to pass up? When was it offered?
In any case I think Feliciano talked himself into this case, as well as by his actions. So he remains for me the prime suspect now in hindsight and after all the information that has come out.
I wonder Kris's father who hiked with Feliciano didn't have in the back of his mind the thought of seeing if this guy was telling the truth, since Mr. Kremers must have known he was the first to enter his daughter's room with Feliciano saying he was booked for a tour with them. Sometimes parents can have their own intuition about things and people.
As for the mysterious photos, the timing or sequence is the only thing I question as I don't have all the originals with me to fully scrutinize. But re the ones taken at night, I wonder if that is dust particles which look like white orbs?
Lastly the diary of Lisanne shows she had a bad feeling about something to want to be with her family again.
Could it be that she encountered Feliciano while lying on the hammock? I wonder what he said to her and Kris then if this was the case?
I'll try to follow up with this case on your blog Scarlet. Hope you and your family are doing well and are safe during this pandemic.
Regards,
- Neil
Thank you Neil! That is very nice to read.
DeleteAs I just replied to Zelda in the comment above yours: It was mainly because the actual pathologist coroner in this case keeps stating that he believes the girls were victims or organ trafficking, that I even contemplate professional cartels. But I agree with you, these well oiled machines don't fuss about with cat and mouse games with the police. For such people a few murders more or less is no big deal and they have more pressing matters to deal with than hanging around a jungle at night, faking night photos. I much more suspect a couple of local players, a local gang, linked to a tour guide, who had personal things at stake with this whole investigation and international media attention. The tour guide(s) know what happened and who were behind all this, some are covering up for them I believe. They may have been helped by someone intelligent enough to throw investigators off track. Although I believe Betzaida Pitti had no intention whatsoever to put them to the test or to even properly investigate and do the research by the book. So it was a home game really, easy peasy.
For sure, if actual cartels want to get a message across, they hang dead opponents dangling on ropes on public bridges or send their heads around, that sort of stuff. But they can make bodies disappear with chemicals very easily and you will never find a trace of them.
But here we are left with half a pelvis, a foot, a rib, a tibia and femur leg, a ball of skin.. I think that they were planted on purpose. Just as the backpack, to make it clear to the parents that the girls were dead. To ensure that their ongoing search operations, months after the girls went missing, would stop. It doesn't take an Einstein to plant a backpack and a few bones which don't provide a cause of death to a coroner. It was no Einstein who did this anyway, because the bag and its content was covered in different fingerprints and DNA. they were lucky that Betzaida was put onto the case, as she just didn't put them through a database. She also helped them by not looking for hairs or dna from the girls in the houses and finca's of these guides or people of interest. No interrogations of people either, aside from a short interview with the kids from the local gang. But they were released again. So it was no perfect crime at all, they would have been caught early on by the FBI if they had been put on this case. In fact, the FBI DID in fact write at some point that they found a connection between the killing of Catherine Johannet, a mere 35 kilometers up north, and the disappearance of Kris and Lisanne. But once they solved their case, they let go of our dead girls, unfortunately.
The fact there was afresh ball of skin from Lianne found 5 months after she went missing says enough. Just like her foot, hardly decomposed, found 6 weeks later, while Kris' remains were so far decomposed that the bones looked bleached. Anyone who does not see this as suspicious needs their brains checked imo. These remains were found in the same rough area, not in water, lying in the same jungle with the same weather conditions, humidity and such. Humans interfered and planted those remains, it's as simple as that I believe.
Hi Scarlet,
Deleteit's a pleasure to get a response from a celebrity sleuth! ;) You are revered by the people who read your blog and post your content from time to time regarding the case of Lisanne and Kris. So I'm elated!
Regarding the information and your thoughts on the case in your response, that's really creepy that Plinio passed them on that trail. You know come to think of it, those two photos of the girls showing the thumbs up, do you think that was the moment? Wow if it is then that is really creepy indeed.
I really don't like the feeling I get when I think of Feliciano. Was he who helped discover the skin, bones of Lisanne? Were the forensic team with him or the search party that found Lisanne's remains?
Was the backpack handled by forensic team too? If not then common sense would raise alarms in the forensic team to warm everyone not to handle evidence, from that point onwards, and to call them or have them there to handle it before sending it to the lab. There are many protocols I would imagine to follow like details about each piece of evidence, who found it, who touched it, how it was found, photographing the evidence in the state it was found, and the surrounding, etc.
The same goes to the way the girls' room should have been handled. I saw the press photos? of the girls' bed and on it was a device, a wallet or bag I could not tell, a lock, some clothes and Feliciano Tourist business card?
Did they ever release the report of the fingerprinting done on all these items? Did they even do the fingerprinting of the diaries? If we suspect F., then Eileen would have been asked to check the diaries to see if any reference was made, etc.
I wonder if they would find any of the girls' fingerprints which is what I would expect on the business card if they had booked a tour with F, and F had given the card to one of them or both. Also the business card looks perfect, no creases as would appear if the girls placed it in their pocket, and the business card appears to be positioned in a way to allow the viewer to read it. Very peculiar.
As for cartel and all that dark stuff, I also agree they would not do a sloppy job like this because that industry from what I read is a very big business. I know a little because my younger brother needed a kidney transplant and he told me all kinds of stories when he was desperate to find one and researched the darker issues surrounding the organ donation world.
Yeah, definitely foul play in my books, and committed by a group of amateurs or wannabes, but had some help either by luck due to incompetent people or by people in on the take. There's always money to be made.
Btw, what do you make of the phone calls, like the first two calls that were made from Kris and Lisanne's phone and then the call that connected to the GSM on the next day?
Anyways Scarlet, thank you for taking the time to respond and write to me. Good to know you are doing well.
Take care
- Neil
I apologise if I've posted this twice.
ReplyDeleteI would like to make a comment on the usage of the 112 emergency services number. I've seen a number of comments on this (not nessesarily on this blog), why did the girls dial the Dutch/European emergency number.
112 is the standard international emergency number that can be dialled in any country, provided there is reception, and will redirect you to local emergency services. This should be common knowledge amongst travellers but noone has mentioned this as yet. I'm actually quite shocked that a country has their emergency number the same as the international.
In my home country I dial 000. Overseas I dial 112.
This blog is really good by the way.
Thank you! As far as I know it is a number that is mainly used in Europe, but it's true, it is used in some other countries outside of the EU too, and also allows you to be switched through if needed to the number of the country you are in.
DeleteThanks!
The finding of the backpack and the photos and call logs is what has put chills down my spine. Normally, with disappearances, I feel sad about it, but quickly move on because we don't see their suffering; we only see the last few photos in the lead up.
DeleteWith Kris and Lisanne the night photos and call logs after their disappearance almost puts us in the jungle with them.
I was in backpack/working holiday mode during 2014 and 2015; I was in Thailand in Feb 2014 then was living in Canada all of 2015. Many people I worked with visited Central and South America during that time. My cousin, being one of them, traveled Central America and visited Boquete. She wasn't aware of Kris and Lisanne until I told her yesterday when we had a chat. She said their were parts of her Central American travels that were a bit sketchy, especially the border crossings.
This can happen to anyone.
Just read through all the content you posted, great detective work and a very interesting read. My personal feeling here is you already solved the case. I agree with your sentiment, but a few pieces of info may be helpful. I believe girls were set up, and that both select people from the local village, and drug cartel were involved while local authorities also being complicit.
ReplyDeleteThe girls were likely set up before or shortly after arriving in the region. In specific regions such as this the cartel has many informants in many places. People like taxi drivers, hostel workers, just ordinary people, who need even a small amount of extra income to survive. These many informants act to support their operations for example locals warning before a raid happens, or passing along information that may be valuable such as persons who may be of interest. This is how the cartel keeps one step ahead.
My feeling is the hostel passed along information about these girls and a command came down from somebody in power to stalk and capture these girls if an opportunity arose. This is why the specific Taxi driver came that day, and it was said two men where in the car with them. Once they entered the trail these ill intentioned men waited at the restaurant for some time and went up the trail knowing this was their chance. My guess is the guide met the girls somewhere near the summit which explains the thumbs up photos, and also why the demeanor changes afterwards. The guide offered them a ride back or free guide back convincing them they would get lost, or by other means, but instead took them to the swimming location, which is why a red truck was seen coming down the mountain and also photos the guide posted on April 5th 2014 of being at the summit.
The lake photo with the two men were part of the local village gang, and were with the guide or met up with him. and after swimming the girls were drugged and drove to another location perhaps without cell phone service. The cartel likely passed information to them they were tasked capture the girls alive. The local gang captured these girls and likely sexually assaulted them over many days, while the search operation was looking in the wrong direction deeper into the trail, with the people who actually saw them last providing misleading information.
If you think about power structures here its Cartel -> Government -> Village. Which is why even people who did the investigation botched it. In these regions if the cartel says you have to do something there is no choice, either you do it or they will kill you. Which is why people in the local village who may of participated would go along with it. The value of life is low, and they routinely make examples out of people. For turf wars yes they do things like display bodies, but for a smaller region simply somebody turning up dead under suspicious circumstances sends the message.
After the girls were held captive for some time, once somebody from the cartel arrived, they were likely killed and used for organ collection. I believe somebody from the local gang may have mentioned the taxi driver as a potential liability and may of been murdered to cover up any info he possessed. Additionally the murders that occurred next year were a part of the clean up. I do not think the local gang would kill several of their own for a cover up, this kind of brutality only happens with a large lucrative organization like a cartel.
I see arguments here saying the cartel would do a much more professional job, and can easily make people disappear. However I think it was as simple as somebody up top tasking several of the villagers to carry out this task on their behalf which is why the job overall seems sloppy and random. ( deliver the girls, and keep them there until we send somebody, while misleading authorities ). For the local gang they were able to get sexual favors and abuse them but for the cartel it came down to money & power.
Fantastic write-up, thank you. I entirely agree with you, this is exactly what I also believe to have happened. The taxi driver was 'on the phone' for most of the ride he claimed. The two local men in the back of the cab, getting out just before the girls. I think the cab driver instructed others indeed about girls and their destination, cartel members or people linked to the local gang. Guide P. admitted as much as passing the girls on the trail; I do suspect also that he was with them on the summit and was the one who drove them in the red truck to a swimming location. Another person who I heard may have been linked to all this, is the owner of the Spanish language school. This is prett far-fetched stuff, but at the end of the day we have no explanation whatsoever why the girls were sent away by the children's school, Aura. Lommers was supposed to have arranged the volunteer work for them, but we have no idea why it all went pearshaped. Did she lure the girls to Boquete under the pretext of volunteer work, and was it all a big scam?
DeleteAnother thing pointing towards cartel-type of crime: the journalist Adelita Coriat, who did a lot of investigative journalism in this case, stopped writing and from what we heard she was threatened. Some people clearly have a lot of power and influence in this region, and it is not the police. cartel members or even wealthy and powerful hotel and restaurant owners could have steered the investigation away from their relatives. Kris and Lisanne are not the only missing people in the region,many people went missing, especially young women. We could see the suspicion and hesitation in the villagers of Alto Romero on camera, when asked to simply tell what they know. They needed a village meeting to decide if the couple who found the backpack were allowed to speak to the American tv makers (and what to say, no doubt).
Yes your write-up ties a lot of loose ends together neatly, including the reason for the early deaths of the taxi driver and the gang youth pictured in the swimming photo. Especially Osman's death on April 4th already is evidence for me personally (as well as the swimming photo) that anybody who could be a liability was rid of. Osmans mother told in the press that osman was acting very strange the days prior, a clear indication that he was stressed out and anxious. He knew something. He may have deemed prone to breaking psychologically and considered a liability. People in their early 20s don't just drop dead like flies and we had a lot of young people dying in quick succession in this case....
Yeh I think the very late discovery of the bones and bag, at places which were searched before (!), point towards planting. Reason seems to me that the parents were relentless and kept bugging the locals with their professional search operations. They had enough funds to go on and on. Something had to be done to make them go away. And only evidence of their daughters deaths did that job successfully. The photos (especially the suspicious night photos) provided a narrative of the girls just getting lost and dying. They needed to push that narrative, because that was the only way for the parents to back off, leave the area alone and go back home. Drug trails are not the sort of terrain you want nosy international search operations in for months or years.
Thanks for your reply Scarlet! Also one more thing to mention that I do not believe has been mentioned here previously. If you look at the body language of the girls in the lake photo they are clearly afraid. They are holding or grasping each other close, and likely mimicking the body language of the men they are with out of fear ( just like the thumbs up photo ). The body language of the men in the photo have their hands raised high wide and open this is a sign of domination, almost like "We got them".
DeleteAlso this is more of a guess and I may not have the correct timeline but the girls may of had access to their phones but were unable to talk. Which is why they called emergency services. From what I see the girls began their hike at around 11 and the first emergency call was placed at 16. Which would explain a 2 hour hike up, then begin brought down and going to the next location where sometime after they might of began to realize the potential danger they were in. The cell phone calls placed after may have been placed out of desperation in hopes that the location of their phones would be tracked and authorities would come discover them.
Yeh.. I read many people's views on that photo. Some don't even believe it are Kris and Lisanne pictured in it (I disagree). Yeh they crouch under water but we can see from the guys next to them, standing straight, that the water is not very deep there. So they may crouch under the water in fact. Because they feel vulnerable? Too naked? Uncomfortable? Lisanne makes a V-sign, they seem to huddle together for comfort. I did think all was good still at the moment when this photo was taken, they still seem to enjoy their swim. But perhaps they already started to feel unsettled by then? Good suggestion, that they may just have inconspicuously called 112 at the time to allow police to find their location. But the calls did not make it through and the Caldera hot springs area does have network, although I read it can be shoddy at times... Indeed, the lads are seemingly not having a care in the world and are showing their maleness.
DeleteYeh it is hard to tell from the sunlight at what time this picture was taken. Considering the sun set before 19:00 om back then, it may have been maybe 16:00 or 16:30 by then, or maybe later. Perhaps they sneakily called emergency services because they felt uncomfortable and unsafe? They started their hike around 11, were at the summit around 13:00, then at a next stream at around 14:00, but going back would go faster bc downhill, so it would not have been a problem with their level of fitness and the good weather conditions to be back at the trail head around 15:30-16:00 pm. Unless they were transported down in the red truck that was seen coming down by some witnesses, then they could have been away from that mountain even earlier.
But people overall have very different interpretations of these photos. The interpretations vary wildly. For instance: some people also see absolutely no change from the smiling photos on top of the Mirador. Others - me included - do see a change of facial expressions and think they can pick up on some grumpiness or distance or confusion or fear even. But such photos are just a click in time, a momentary impression. Perhaps Kris looked smiling again a fraction of a second later, we just don't know.. But she and Lisanne had developed some distance between one another.
With regards to the nightime hair photo, read this link look at thge pics.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/comments/eru46p/my_version_of_events_after_research/fpsemak/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Iwould say the pic is not real. interesting as it would put forward the possibilty that they were seperated at that point.
After looking more closely it is clearly a fake. I should have looked closer before posting link. My appologies.
ReplyDeleteRE: Photo #509
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that the camera/memory card malfunctioned due to heat and/or humidity on April 1st during the taking of photo #509?...this created a file with no data, and caused the camera to "overheat" for a period of time. Then when powered back on and used again, the camera starts numbering at #510.
Was the temp/humidity high enough to cause this issue?
Great job, fascinating case!
In theory it might be possible for a photograph entry on the card to be corrupted, but what would happen is that the 'data' that is the image would still be present on the card, it's just that the camera (or a computer) would be unable to read that corrupted data. In effect it is 'locked' data.
DeleteWith what was found on the card though there IS no data, it has been completely erased. The only record it was there comes in a file index on the card, which tells experts that it has indeed been erased by some extraordinary means. External means...
The thinking is that this lost picture is likely from April 1st, the last photograph of that day, and possibly a key image that suggests what happened next for them. But we will never know for certain.
Hi, thanks! A camera glitch is always a possibility I guess, but there is no indication for it here.. The camera had no glitch issue before file 509 went missing and it didn't have it afterwards either, going by the information we now have. For such a one off, that is a very small statistical chance. If the heat caused this, why only file 509? Why not also 508 and 507? Or any of the many photos taken in Bocas in the weeks prior, where it was a lot hotter than in Boquete? Boquete and the trail especially lies at a higher altitude, in a cloud forest where it is often a good 8 degrees cooler than in Bocas.
DeleteThe exif data of the photos tell us what the temperature of the camera was and it never really exceeded 25 degrees Celsius and usually was around 22 degrees Celsius, which is a normal temperature for a camera that is being used.
Thanks Scarlet for sharing your blog. For a theory to be valid, all evidence and testimony must be contained and fully fit. Here I present a synthesis of the case: Two young Dutch women arrive on March 29 at a Spanish school in Boquete, Panama.
ReplyDeleteOn Tuesday, April 1, they take a taxi that came with the driver and two other men, as confirmed by the taxi driver who took them, to the El Pianista restaurant, located 100 meters from the entrance to the El Pianista trail. The taxi driver died a year later, in the waters of the Caldera River, which passes through Boquete. Four locals later saw them pass by on the El Pianista trail. There is a witness who claims to have seen a red four-wheel-drive vehicle, such as Toyota or Mitsubishi, pass along the El Pianista trail on the afternoon of April 1.
On Wednesday April 2, a guide who said he had made an appointment with the young women that morning, came to the shelter and found out that the young women had not gone to sleep. He requested the keys to the girls' residence from the owner of the shelter, and together with the school secretary, they entered the girls' room and at dusk reported the girls' disappearance to the Boquete police. A week later, the secretary moved to another city. A French couple who were walking along the El Pianista trail on April 2 say that a local warned them that it would be dangerous to continue towards the Mirador because the night before he had heard a woman screaming and had felt or seen 3 men run, which is why which the French turned back.
There was great activity from the search bodies from April 3 to June 4.
On April 3, volunteers looked for on the El Pianista trail. On April 5, the police and volunteers searched the surroundings of Boquete. On April 7, 40 rescuers from Sinaproc and 35 agents of the national police began the search on the Sendero El Pianista. On April 14, they end the search, finding no leads from Kris and Lisanne. On April 30, Lisanne and Kris's parents, while in Boquete, offer a reward of $ 30,000 dollars to anyone who contributes information to help them find them.
On May 27, 19 Dutch rescuers and 12 trained dogs join the search. On May 30, mountain rescuers and specialists from the Costa Rican Red Cross join the search. On June 3, Costa Rican rescuers abandon the search, and on June 4, Dutch rescuers do the same.
On June 14, 2014, they found the girls' backpack and on June 19, some of their skeletal remains.
The young women took several photos of their journey. The most disturbing photo is photo 505 (photo 506 has not been developed and 509 does not appear on the camera, so it is presumed that it was deleted on the computer). She divides the story in two: the photos before the 505 are of joy. In photo 505, Kris has a strange body position and puzzled facial expression and in photo 508, Kris is worried. The next is panic and worry. Kris in photo 505 has her hands behind her, which could be tied or handcuffed. In the background of photo 505, attached to Kris's thigh, leg and left foot, a silhouette of a young man, wearing a high top beige hat and wide brim (in the style of sheriffs or North American jeans) can be seen ), with a beige blanket over his shoulders, trunk and arms and a rifle or shotgun in a horizontal position on his arms. The site in photo 505 could be located 2,041 meters from the Mirador El Pianista, to the northeast, along the path parallel to or that leads to the Pianista River, shown as a flickering area or pulsating signal, on one of the Google Earth maps. There was a circumstance or lure that attracted or removed one of the young women, or both, from the El Pianista trail. Another indication of the existence of a criminal group was the death of Osma Valenzuela, a friend of Kris and Lisanne, on April 4, 2014, on the Caldera River, while he was with his family, when he left to do some physiological need.
I feel like the overexposed pics could be eiy eiy eiy guy with a headlamp using the but of his knife on krisses head? Img 591 I can kinda see someone with a headlamp. Hard to say anything really though
ReplyDeleteHi Scarlet/All,
ReplyDeleteJust a short intro, my name is Chris (c9m1p6@gmail.com) and I'm a fraud investigator in a local bank here in the Philippines. I like reading blogs regarding dead/missing people with suspicious backstory. (i.e Dyatlov Pass, Khamar Daban, Yuba County 5, Tamam Shud).
Anyhow, these are the 'facts' w/ my opinions/points (kindly correct me if any of these are wrong as I don't have a computer/laptop to note down everything that I've read from the other blogs as well):
1. The taxi driver who accompanied Kris and Lisa was also reported dead (suspiciously) a year after this incident.
[if Kris and Lisa encountered a local/syndicate during their entry in Panama without their knowedge, possible that the taxi driver is involved somehow]
2. Kris and Lisa met and spoke with other foreigners (2 males) during their stay in Panama. Then, I encountered a Reddit entry (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/comments/e88hv1/swimming_photo/) stating that these foreigners were already dead (suspiciously) as well.
[if this is true, same sentiment with item #1 re: 'taxi driver']
3. The bag (1 'dry' medium size bag, even though 2 persons hiked - Kris and Lisa) that contained 1 plastic water bottle, 2 bras, 2 sunglasses, 2 mobile phones, and 1 camera was found weeks after the 2 disappeared without any damage/scratches.
[the mobile phones and camera were still used by Kris and Lisa 'when' they're in danger, yet, one (or they) of them still able to put the gadgets inside the bag and just 'left' it? that's suspicious]
4. Multiple incorrect PINs were entered on one of the mobile phones.
[clearly that the person using the phone is not the owner; if it's the owner, it is 'slightly possible' that she forgot the PIN due to a mild concussion; swapping the simcards of the 2 phones (just like what was mentioned by someone here) is only 'slightly possible' as it's hard to eject the simcard from an iPhone, unless you have a smal pin to use]
5. Multiple night shots were taken (some in blast mode, others in non-consecutive presses) and clear shots shows a twig (w/ small red plastic pieces attached) and head with blonde hair (can't remember if it's Kris' or Lisa's).
[I am somewhat sure that neither Kris or Lisa was the one using the camera because if it's them, they could've record theirselves stating their situation in hopes that someone may obtain it in the future; in addition, the head 'feels' like a head of a dead/unconcious person]
6. Bone fragments of Kris and Lisa were found scattered 10kms+ away from the location of their last photos together. However, Lisa's (correct me if the person is correct) pelvic bone (dried, incomplete) and one of her shoes with her foot still inside (decaying, intact) were found.
[this is very dubious as if her body was cut into several parts, and some of it (the foot with a shoe) was kept in a cool dry place to preserve and prevent moisture]
My conclusion is either they've encountered a local/syndicate that were looking for fresh female bodies to use/sell (they've left the bag to mislead the authority or anyone), or a cannibal tribe that were looking for something to eat (but the preservation of the foot will be too impossible accomplish if this is the case).
Hi Chris
Deletethanks for sharing your thoughts on this case here. Good write up.
1. Correct, Leonardo was waiting for his clients of the day at a local swimming location and he was later found faced down in shallow water, in the middle of the day by people. Drowned. He was in his early thirties. This taxi driver was interrogated by police about his transporting of Kris and Lisanne on April 1st.
2. This is a rumour. There have been several witnesses who came forward and said they had seen the girls having breakfast or brunch or lunch (variations of the story differ) on the day of their disappearance as well as on the day before their disappearance. Some say it were Dutch guys, and this was investigated and said to be untrue because the Dutch guys they met in Bocas were actually not in Boquete at the time. Then there are stories about them having met up with local young men or Tico's, guys from neighbouring Costa Rica. These lads were never identified.
Then there is a swimming photo, I posted in on part 2 of my blog series here. I believe it shows Kris and Lisanne with two identified youths from Bocas. The photo was leaked by a source close to the investigations. The boys were also dead within a year both.
3. Yeh the backpack was found about 10 weeks later.
4. Correct. Dutch investigators believed that someone else handled the phone once the wrong PIN codes were entered. But some sleuths think Lisanne may just not have memorized Kris' PIN codes, or was hallucinating or something like that.
5. I have all the night photos that were either made public or leaked recently up in my part 3 of the blog series. Yes, about 90 such night photos were taken, most showing the same trees and sky.
Regarding those night photos, people think very differently about them. I think that if they wanted to see their surroundings for instance, at night, isn't over 3 hours straight of taking the same photos over and over again a bit.. excessive? Why would they take the same sort of photos again and again of those exact same trees if they just wanted to see around them? And 2 hours after the last photo was shot, it became light, but they never took a photo during daylight to document their surroundings. Or if something was stalking them for instance, say, a wild animal; wouldn't we have seen at least a set of ears on one of the photos at some point? Some wild animal eyes lighting up in the distance? None of that.. And if a human was stalking them, then the flash use would give away exactly where Kris and Lisanne were...
But indeed, no messages, no draft messages in Dutch or created with rocks or sticks, no attempts to call their parents, no recordings by video or photo of what they had been going through those 7 days prior. Nothing. Just wildly abstract photos of the same surroundings, never identifying who took those photos.
6. Yeh a handful of their bones were found, spread out over several kilometers, but some of their respective bones clustered together. They were found near Alto Romero, at least 8 walking hours away from their last known location on the Pianista trail. Some bones found upstream, some downstream from the location where their backpack was found. The pelvic bone was from Kris and a rib bone was also found of her; both were dried, bleached looking, without any tissue on it anymore. Whereas the left leg bones and foot of Lisanne were found with skin and meat and all still attached to it. Kris' bones also contained phosphates, and Lisanne's didn't. Lisanne's foot was cut off at the ankle bone and her whole foot was still inside the boot. A clean cut, no signs of any cause for the breaking off of the foot and no animal claws or teeth marks were found on any of the bones.
Yeh I agree with your conclusion but I would not rule out that they met foul play in the hands of local people either. Locals who weren't sicario's nor tribes people.
Hi Scarlet, excellent blog! I want to add my thought on the night photos. I think the girls may have had this idea- since sleeping at night in the jungle is probably a terrifying experience, perhaps they decided to program the phone to take photos for 3 hours while they slept... This might bring them a more peaceful sleep while allowing the flash to keep them safe as well as let authorities find them. In other words, NO ONE was taking the photos, it was the camera programed to do this while they slept. What are your thoughts on that?
DeleteHi Scarlet,
ReplyDeleteWhen I looked at the photos that had been taken in 1st of April, the photos after the Pianista summit give me creepy feelings. Since there were discussions about photoshopping and metadata manipulation, I have also spent some time to see whether, there were possible traces of photoshopping. I have made a small PDF file, which includes reviews for images 505,507 and 508 with a possible theory regarding missing photo 509. I emailed it month ago and don't know whether you received it or had the time to go through it. After these results and the scenario I had commented in part 5, my conclusion is that the girls were kidnapped and taken to some other place (remote area) shortly after their hike or after that swimming photo. If the girls returned after the photo 508 at 2 P.M, they would probably be at the starting point of the trail between 3.45 P.M - 4 P.M. (The descent was fast due to the perfect hiking conditions at that time). It is possible to reach Caldera Hot Springs within 30 min or so from the Pianista. In fact, witness claimed that they were picked up by a truck. Given the fact that first distress calls were made at 4.39 P.M, something terrible had happened to them within the next 20min or so. If K&L were the two girls in that swimming photo, it might explain why the two bras were found neatly folded in their backpack.
Best Regards,
Tharindu
Hi Tharindu
Deletethanks for your comment. Yeh I understand that. The photos all give me the creeps as well tbh. I don't recall seeing your PDF. Can you send it to me once more, to ScarletBlog@protonmail.com ?
I agree with your conclusion... unfortunately. I also think they met foul play.
Yes indeed, They started their hike around 11 am, were at the summit around 13:00 pm, then at a next stream at around 14:00, but going back would go faster bc downhill, so it would not have been a problem with their level of fitness and the good weather conditions to be back at the trail head around 15:30-16:00 pm. Unless they were transported down in the red truck that was seen coming down by some witnesses, then they could have been away from that mountain even earlier. A local shop owner has declared that he saw Kris and Lisanne around 15:00 pm, looking for a taxi to go back to Boquete. Maybe he was correct but a bit off with the time. Maybe they were given a lift to the swimming location. The calls may have been staged entirely. It is possible to change the time and date settings on a phone, call, change the time again, call again and leave a fake trail that way, I have been told by several people who are into the technicalities of mobile phones. Yes the neatly folded up bra's have been an interesting detail always and the swimming photo would explain them. Notice how the girls are crouching down in the water, while we can see from the straight standing young guys next to them (both were also dead within the year) that the water was not that deep there. They may have taken off their bra's and put them in their backpack before the swim voluntarily. And after that things went wrong..
Hi,
DeleteThank you for your response. Sure, I will send it to ScarletBlog@protonmail.com now. By the way, I have done few modifications and shared few additional observations, which might be useful.
Regards,
Tharindu
In the enhanced photo with the twigs I looked at the original and the light on the right looks like the moon-I wonder if the moon phase matches up with the night those photos were to be taken it might help reinforce that the photos were tampered with.
ReplyDeleteI don't think so. On April 1st of 2014 it was a new moon and moonless therefore. On April 8th the moon will have been visible, but far from full?
DeleteHi Scarlet,
ReplyDeletethank you for this very interesting and complete blog.
It is in fact a fascinating case, which bothers me for days now.
A small detail, which I picked up and I want to share is:
I want to compare picture
#496 (I call it "K+L up")
#499 ("L up")
#500 ("L down")
iPhone 4 picture ("K up")
#unknown ("K down")
with picture #508 ("K river")
My point is, that when you take a picture during a hike your body direction is most likely the same as your last movement direction, as seen in picture "K river", where you assume that Kris HAS crossed the river. One person is hiking in front of the other one and when there is an opportunity for a picture the photographer turns to the other person. When we look at "L up" we can see that she is standing on the right side of the picture and her body is facing to the left where the path goes further, same goes for the iPhone picture "K up". I find the two picture natural looking. Same for #496: L standing right and K is joining her to the left - the general camera direction is the same.
Now looking at the two other pictures "L down" and "K down" (despite the different sky and light conditions), both are standing on the left side and there body direction is to the right - down to the start of the trail. So I assume that these pictures are taken while the girls where returning to Boquete.
Of course this is only a wild guess, but from my feeling these pictures feel wrong from a composition point of view, because the background of "K down" and "L down" isn't spectacular more interesting than #498 to explain the need of another photo. Except if both were returning to Boquete and wanted to show that they completed the hike - a typical behavior to take another picture at a special spot.
So to say, I share your opinion that the girls returned to Boquete and "get lost" while swimming with strange people. For me it is very clear that both girls were at least post mortem found and for some reason this person decided or had to get rid of their bodies - a strong indicator for a crime. For the pictures: I don't trust the data on them. It's very easy to change the names of the files and delete pictures (insecurely). Could be easily done by their killer. The next harder thing would be to change the EXIF data: Requires you to google and to download an extra program. Also possible for the killer. Maybe at their google search they found also a program to erase files securely? That would be equally hard and could be also done by the killer or the police.
This alone (needed time: 1,5h) would be enough to create this mess we can see now, which leads to the "lost in the jungle" scenario. But I really dont believe that someone photoshopped any picture on the SD card, because it's really hard to do so perfectly. Would be much easier to simply delete such a photo.
However, thank you again for your hard work and "keep at the ball" as we would say in Germany!
"Of course this is only a wild guess, but from my feeling these pictures feel wrong from a composition point of view, because the background of "K down" and "L down" isn't spectacular more interesting than #498 to explain the need of another photo. Except if both were returning to Boquete and wanted to show that they completed the hike - a typical behavior to take another picture at a special spot."
Delete--------------
I have never really seen any hard evidence that these photographs taken at the summit indicate the two friends were there on two seperate occasions - that they returned here on their way back to Boquete.
What I would like to point out though is the detail of the Cloud cover in the background of #495 does interest me. Because I was looking at these photographs recently and it struck me how different the cloud cover is to that seen in #499 and the 'I-Phone' picture of Kris kremers. Those two photographs appear to have been taken within a few moments of each other judging by how little the cloud changes, #495 on the other hand (apparently taken as they arrived) shows the clouds so different to #499, and Lisanne stood with hair down, that it stopped me.
It is possible these two photographs are showing the same clouds, maybe, but the drift and change between these images is so great that it is clear that they are taken minutes apart, quite possible a LOT of minutes - it depends on how quickly the clouds were moving, and that is very difficult to guess. But there is little wind on the Summit as they pose and snap Photo's so it seems reasonable to think the clouds were slow moving that day.
But when you look at the difference in those clouds on #494 and compare to the 'I'Phone' photo of Kris and #499, it may lend some weight to the idea they were indeed at the Summit twice. Because clearly these photographs were taken quite some time apart.
Initially, I also thought the thumbs up photos (500 and #unknown) of Kris and Lisanne were taken later in the day on their way back to Boquete, because of diffused sunlight and thick cloud cover. However, If you closely look at the photos of Lisanne at the open area (beginning of the trail), the thick cloud cover can be seen behind the mountain range. Those photos were nearly taken 2 hours before their Pianista summit photos. So, I kind of agree with you that the clouds were moving slow that day. I notice kind of small side winds in photos 499 and #Iphone 4 towards the left side. That could explain why the sky at Boquete side was clear that day. I also believe these photographs were taken some time apart except for the photos that have been taken as they arrived (495-497). More likely other photos are out of order.
DeleteThey took 8 photos (495-502) within a quick succession.(within 2 minutes) There is a 4 minutes time gap between 502 and 503. Two possibilities during that time:
1) They were voluntarily decided to explore the other side of the trail.
2) They were interrupted by a 3rd party.
There is a higher probability that photos 503 and 504 were also taken at Pianista summit because there is a 14 mintutes time gap between photos 504 and 505. In fact those crevice passages found in 505 are located just 15 minutes descent into the other side (As mentioned in the video made by Kris's parents). If the photo numbers and timings were manipulated, the actual photos 503 and 504 might be 2 photos available to us. My guesses are the thumbs up photos of Kris and Lisanne because of the diffused sunlight compared to other photos. Did you see that photo (possibly #498) is a zoomed one? Boquete town is clearly visible in 498. I have commented about 498 in part 5.
Although this not an important fact, it seems like during their ascent to the summit and descent along the other side Kris was leading the way. (photos 491, 505, 507 and 508). Some people doubted why such a distance in this kind of terrain. Did you notice how many times they switched their backpack? 4 times I guess. One instance is after photo 491, the backpack was handed over to Kris before the summit. We see the backpack was with Kris, as they reached Pianista summit.
Photos 505 and 508 are really weird to me. Not only Kris's facial expressions but also around her body. For example, look at Kris's left arm in 508 and surrounding vegetation behind Kris. Compare the quality and details with 507. bizarre!!!. 507 seems to be a genuine photo. I find it hard to understand, why so many strange things in 505 and 508 while other photos look fine. I thought, it may be because of poor file size and resolution. Looks like it is not the case.
Great observation, anonymous. Thanks so much for sharing this. Interesting point you make about body direction in relation to movement. Both David and I have discussed in the past the possibility of Kris and Lisanne having returned after photo 508 was taken. I am in favour of this theory because although the area is known for pretty dramatic clouds drifting in and contrasting with otherwise blue skies, to me the background and cloud state between the different summit photos of the girls is a very stark one. Lisanne also has her hair loose in some photos and tied back in others. Of course, girls do that now and then for esthetic reasons, but here the different hair styles took place between photos taken within mere seconds of one another. It is a very strange picture, when you try to imagine the movements they made all over that summit, going by the photo times of the exif data. They must have rushed tremendously. Or.....
DeleteOr they simply returned after taking photo 508 and just made it back to the summit, took some more photos but now while on the move in the opposite direction; something you have described. And someone has mixed the order of these photos around, in order to make it look like these girls never made it back down. Never came back off that mountain...
A similar narrative has been tried to create with regards to the story about Blue the dog. His owners declared to Lee Zeltzer and others that the girls talked to the owner of the local restaurant at the start of the trail. And that their free roaming beautiful dog Blue went up with the. But that Blue came back down alone later in the day, without the girls. This creates the impression, again, that Kris and Lisanne never returned. And got lost and perished out there. But there is no evidence at all that Blue truly was with Kris and Lisanne. In all the dozens of photos taken that day, Blue is not pictured once...
Indeed, if the Caldera swimming photo is legit, and I do believe so, then the girls did come down and perhaps some people involved, corrupt people, have tried to change the whole narrative with the help of the photos that were found after the camera and the backpack were planted, 10 weeks afterwards.
"Did you see that photo (possibly #498) is a zoomed one? Boquete town is clearly visible in 498."
ReplyDeleteNo, it's definitely not a zoomed in or cropped picture. If you look at the 'I-Phone' picture you see Kris Kremers gesturing to the view behind her, the town is just out of view behind a bush though and it appears that the close-up of Boquete in #498(?) is possibly a result of them checking the shot on the camera's viewfinder, seeing the town is not being shown, and therefore having to step right into those bushes and the uneven ground to deliberately get that shot of the town - Boquete.
When you think on that the idea that all these first shots were taken within just two minutes is too hard to believe. The time-stamps shown surely can't be legitimate.
----------
"Did you notice how many times they switched their backpack? 4 times I guess. One instance is after photo 491, the backpack was handed over to Kris before the summit."
That Backpack is very interesting - you do see in the very first photo's of the day that Lisanne is carrying it in every shot as they approach the main trail, except one. These are poor shots, but in one of these you do see that suddenly Kris is wearing it:https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lnrgn_GaF44/XKSxQblSx-I/AAAAAAAAjxA/g-sn953ITMsH9xTy1OVa-k1Yi0rYs-kpgCLcBGAs/s1600/Kris%2BKremers%252C%2BPanama%252C%2BIl%2BPianista.jpg I cannot quite understand this...
But #491 is an interesting image as while it might suggest Kris is walking well ahead even at this early stage the difference here to the shots of her racing down the other side later is that we can be sure that #491 is an isolated photograph and she didn't stay ahead of Lisanne as she apparently reached the summit wearing the backpack, suggesting they reached there together.
What happens next, with the photo's of Kris racing down the other side for a good 40 or more minutes and never sharing the backpack or camera is worth thinking on, as clearly something is driving Kris on like that. These are strange shots because of that, and while there is no hard proof of a third party being there I do believe it would explain why it is they decided to go down there at all, and why it is Kris is always way ahead - the path isn't wide enough for three after all.
------------------
"Photos 505 and 508 are really weird to me. Not only Kris's facial expressions but also around her body."
Photo #505 is showing Kris crouching while shielding her eyes from the sun coming through above. You can see this quite clearly when you know what you are looking at, what is very odd is the huge grin on her face as she is doing this. Again, there is no hard evidence there is a third party with them here, but it would perhaps explain the image seen here.
Photo 507 and 508 are two images that have gained a fascination due to them being the last of the day and all the implications that come with that. But when you look at all the Photo's taken on that day and look to the very first one of Kris on the steel bridge as they set off, then compare to #491, and put these alongside #508, there IS continuity here. Kris stood for a shot, not smiling, poor quality image, and As a whole when you look at that camera's quality the photo's that are either selfie's or close-ups tend to be excellent quality, while anything take at a distance is poor. I was talking about all this elsewhere. When you look at their work with the camera on the days before they reach Boquete, and afterwards, they are capturing EVERYTHING. The people they meet, their accomodation, the sunsets, the rainfall, the beaches, the starfish, the card games, the nights out, the parties - everything. So when you think on that the fact that the photography stops where it does on April 1st and there are no shots of the second stream or the grand views of the meadow 20-30 minutes on from the first stream.... it says something.
I have to conclude that Something, or some one, happened to make the photographing stop.
Great analysis as ever David, thank you for sharing it here. As for the sudden poor photo quality, I would love to know if all the original photos were this poor in quality too when it came to the ones taken on April 1st. We can see in the leaked photos taken in Bocas that even the far distance one are of great quality most of the time.
Deletenoticed that the photo's date is April 2013???
ReplyDeleteConsidering you post this under part 3 of this blog series, I had hoped you had read this info in part 1 already ;) " If the time set on their digital camera was correct, then this has also implications for the rest of the time table of that day. But note that it didn't even have the year (2014) set correctly; it was set to 01-04-2013. This is the default year and fabric setting, reflecting the release date of this specific camera."
DeleteSo yeh you are right, it is set to 2013, one year off. But the rest of the set times have to be taken as religion, according to the investigators..
Something very odd that I noticed with one photo...I'm not sure anyone has noticed or even given it thought before. It's quite a discrepancy. The Canon SX270 HS has the flash located ( it pops up out of the camera ) on the left of the camera, above and to the left of the lens, looking at the camera from the back. This means that in the photo with the red plastic bag and twigs...the shadows of the twigs OUGHT to be to the right of the twigs because the light is coming from to the left of the lens. And yet, every single shadow of every single twig is to the left of the respective twig, and markedly so ! How can this be ?
ReplyDeleteFurther to my comment above about photo #550 ( the branch and red bags on the rock ), I did numerous experiments using a torch and a piece of wire. And I found that there are absolutely NO orientations whatever in which a torch held to the left of my eyes ( i.e my eyes corresponding to the lens of the camera and the torch to the flash ) produces shadows to the left of the wire.
ReplyDeleteHere is the crucial geometry of this...very easy indeed for anyone to replicate :-
Hold a wire horizontally ( left to right ) an inch or two above a white surface and shine a torch on it. You will see that if the torch is held above the level of your eyes, the shadow of the wire appears below the wire. If the torch is held below the level of your eyes, the shadow appears above the wire. Basic geometry. The shadow always has to be geometrically opposite the light source.
Now rotate the wire around gradually so it is pointing away from you. You will see that the shadow changes so that it now reflects whether the torch is to the left or the right of your eyes. When the wire is facing more or less away from you ( as many of the branches in photo #550 are pointing away from the camera ) there is NO WAY you can get a shadow to the left of the wire with the torch to the left of your eyes. It is simply not possible....and it does not matter if one end of the wire is higher up than the other or the surface the shadow is cast on is not level.
In other words, a simple experiment that anyone can do with a wire PROVES that the light source in photo #550 cannot be the camera flash ( which is to the left of the lens )...because there is not simply one branch with a shadow to the left, but every single branch has a shadow to the left regardless of its orientation. This is physically impossible with a light source ( i.e flash ) also to the left of the line of sight.
Rather than provide experiment photos etc....this is such a simple exercise that I would urge anyone to do it themselves as you really have to see it yourself. And you will come to the same conclusion as me, that the light source for photo #550 has to be several feet to the right of the camera. Further absolute proof of that comes from looking at the photo itself. Look at where any shadows on the rock end on the rock, and draw a line that connects the end of the shadow with the end of the respective branch. In every single case ( there are at least 6 such examples in the photo ) you get a line pointing up TO THE RIGHT at an angle of 45 degrees. That is pointing towards the light source...a light source to the right...basic optical geometry says it has to be. This is, again, physically impossible with a camera flash that is to the left of the lens.
Put simply, the shadows in photo #550 are such that they physically CANNOT have been produced by the camera flash. They have to have been produced by another source that was several feet to the right of the camera. This photo is in my view the smoking gun proof of third party involvement.
Thanks Peter, we discussed this a bit already below one of my youtube videos. I'd love to see the results of your experiments with the light source and flash of this camera in similar still life set ups as what we see in the night photos :)
DeleteWell....to me it would be like doing an experiment to show that 2 + 2 is not 5. You physically cannot get a shadow to the left if your light source is also to the left. It's impossible. That's not personal opinion...or something that even needs to be argued or 'demonstrated'...its the laws of geometry and optics. I would argue my case is already proven. There is no way photo #550 could have been taken with a camera that has a flash to the left of the lens. A flash to the left of the lens would be shining light on any shadow to the left of the object photographed....and thus there would not BE a shadow ! It really is as simple as that.
DeleteAs has been pointed out to me on another forum, I left out the effect of parallax, which strengthens my case even further and makes the orientation of the flash irrelevant.
DeleteParallax :- The flash is an inch or so from the lens. But...the distance to the branches is around 8 feet or so...lets call it 100 inches. Now if the rock the shadows are cast on were the same distance the other side of the branches then you'd get a shadow an inch from the branches....but on the opposite side to the flash. Perfect geometry. BUT....the rock is actually only an inch or so behind the branches....which is 1/100th of the distance from camera to branch...which in turns means the shadow CANNOT stick out from behind the branch more than 1/100th of an inch ( i.e parallax scale is 1/100th on the other side of the branches ).
In other words, most of the shadow should be behind the branches with barely 1/100th of an inch of shadow sticking out at the side. And that is regardless of the orientation of the camera or where the flash is.
But what one actually sees is shadows entirely separate from branches, by quite some distance. This means there is simply no way the light source was the camera....however the camera is held or whatever the orientation of the flash.
I would argue this is a huge clue that investigators ought to be looking into.
In a cut out of the camera the flash is located to the right of the lens. You can scroll it up on this very page
DeleteThe photo of the camera itself on this page is taken from the front. From the BACK of the camera, which is what matters and is how the photographer views the scene, the flash is to the left of the lens. Thus it ought to create shadows a little to the right of objects due to parallax. And yet we see the complete reverse. How can this be ? It is a major discrepancy that just gets completely overlooked. It's a huge clue waiting for someone to pay attention to.
DeleteI can’t be certain, obviously, but could the anomalies of IMG_580 be explained if it were taken underwater? The blobs of red surrounding the hair in IMG_580 are not recreated in manufactured examples I've seen, but exist in the original (the halo of red around the hair itself). It was raining at the time, so some or most of the dirt would have been washed out, but it should have looked wet with droplets. It didn't, but if the picture were being taken underwater, it would prevent the hair from looking dirty or wet; the dirt would wash out, and there would be too much water present to appear wet.
ReplyDeleteA side note! If the photos are in their correct order, why do the girls put their hair up and take it down so much? Especially if the images are only minutes apart.
I'm not sure but I doubt that tbh... The camera was also not made to take photos under water. And throughout the night photo series you see these 'orbs' in the sky. It may be lit up water drops from rain or from a nearby waterfall perhaps. Or some think it are dust particles.. In the background you mostly always see trees or rock. But fairly said, the rock on the bottom never looks very wet, for as far that can be told from these photos. Just like the 'SOS' photo and the paper never look particularly wet. The hair is not photographed under water, I am certain of that. It would float and here it just falls down as normal hair does under the pull of gravity...
DeleteYes good point. I find that peculiar also. We discussed it a couple of comments up from yours here. Lisanne indeed has her hair loose in some photos of April 1st and then has it tied back in others. Of course, girls do that now and then for esthetic reasons, but here the different hair styles took place between photos taken within mere seconds of one another. It is a very strange picture, when you try to imagine the movements they made all over that summit, going by the photo times of the exif data. They must have rushed tremendously. Or.....
One alternative explanation for this I'd think about, is that they simply returned after taking photo 508 and just made it back to the summit, took some more photos but now while on the move in the opposite direction. And someone has mixed the order of these photos around, in order to make it look like these girls never made it back down. Never came back off that mountain...
A similar narrative has been tried to create with regards to the story about Blue the dog. His owners declared to Lee Zeltzer and others that the girls talked to the owner of the local restaurant at the start of the trail. And that their free roaming beautiful dog Blue went up with the. But that Blue came back down alone later in the day, without the girls. This creates the impression, again, that Kris and Lisanne never returned. And got lost and perished out there. But there is no evidence at all that Blue truly was with Kris and Lisanne. In all the dozens of photos taken that day, Blue is not pictured once...
If the Caldera swimming photo is legit, and I do believe so, then the girls did come down and perhaps some people involved, corrupt people, have tried to change the whole narrative with the help of the photos that were found after the camera and the backpack were planted, 10 weeks afterwards.
I have to say I just spent the last couple days reading most of the content of your blog and you have done an amazing job.
ReplyDeleteI find myself fascinated by this mystery, looking over and over again at the pictures hoping to see something everyone else might have missed. I know it's a long shot but damn... I wanna know what happened!
One thing that I can't stop but think when I look at the night photos is that I don't think they were using the flash on purpose. All pictures seem to have the camera pointed at the sky, but at nothing in particular. All at a single location. If they were trying to signal their presence, why only use the flash every few minutes? As you said yourself, if they were trying to scare someone or something away, why point at the sky?
I think they were using the lcd screen of the camera as a light and taking pictures by mistake from time to time. This explains the orientation of the camera. The lense is pointed towards the sky so the screen is pointed towards the ground that they are trying to see. Maybe Kris was in a bad shape, and Lisanne was using the camera to see her in a desperate attempt to save her, which might explain the picture of her hair.
Anyway, it still does not explain everything, but that's my little contribution.
Thanks so much for your kind words Manny. It is a mind boggling and enthralling mystery, I agree... There is always the feeling that 'the answer' is staring us in the face somehow, if only we can decipher the clues. A lot of people also seem to identify with Kris and Lisanne; one bubbly and outgoing, the other sensitive and more shy.
DeleteOk thanks. Yes most night photos indeed seem pointed at the sky and at the trees and the darkness above them. It makes little sense. I know that a lot of people want to believe there were helicopters flying overnight, but unfortunately this is nowhere confirmed at this point and stage. Perhaps we will gather more certainty about this soon, as more information is slowly been made public. I know, indeed, scaring something or someone away seems illogical with these high aimed photos. And for such a long time as well, nearly 3 hours. Ok interesting, you think the light coming from the screen helped them better with looking at their surroundings than the light of the flash? Perhaps so yes. But I struggle to understand why these photos were all taken in the same spot and why they would want to keep seeing their surroundings for nearly 3 hours then? While not moving much?
Kris being in a bad shape, perhaps. We have no photo evidence of this however. The hair photo of Kris fails to show a clear head wound or something along those lines? But that is a good suggestion, thank you for sharing it here!
Hey, Scarlet. I will write down my thoughts here, you never know, maybe someone will be interested, or this is an obvious thing.
ReplyDeleteAt 16:39 on April 1, which shows the details of calls until April 11. By that time, they were seized by a group of people, such work alone is, in principle, impossible. In the following days, connection with these phones was still lost. They could have been kept in the jungle. In another case, their phones could be deliberately included in areas where there is no connection with a cellular operator (no signal, I mean). If they were in the city or to take the signal they would have been accurately spotted. If they were in the city or to take the signal they would definitely be caught. They needed data from phones, and turned on, they hoped that the device will boot without a password or pattern (naive).
Certainly these photos are falsified and fake. Starting with their hike on the El Pianista trail. Criminals could let these go on the wrong track, making the illusion that they went far into the jungle. If this is not the case, then why would they fake photos, maybe someone else was with them? I don’t understand why they would fake a photo if they walked along the path of El Pianista, were on Mirador, left the trail and went deep into the jungle. In the photo where the hair (back of the head) is shown, you can see a small gold chain, you can see how it fits around the neck.
Photo where we see the international sign SOS, jar of pringles crisps visible (with the taste of cheese and onions or sour cream and onions). Nothing important. The only thing, they used the things that the girls had taken on the hike.
Most of the photos don't make any sense. Obviously, those involved in the attack took pictures with the camera pointed at the sky, thereby showing that at the time of the shooting the girls were alive.
What is known about the state of the flash card and the camera itself. Was there a hint of manipulation, I think that before the tragic events of April 1, in any case, some files were still deleted or moved by the owner of this camera. These files should be visible in the file locations table, example, the software that Juan used. I still want to know, there was only a problem with file number 509?
In conclusion, I will say that delitants worked here, it is unlikely that a professional would have made such a mistake with a mistake (photo IMG_499.jpg).
Thanks for attention.
Hi, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here. Good ideas. Yes with no clear undeniable evidence that Kris and Lisanne freely handled their phones (such as Dutch written messages, Dutch spoken audio recordings, selfies or a video), it is technically all still possible. Someone else may have handled those phones from April 2nd onward. Or these girls may have been kept somewhere else entirely. They could have even staged the signal-less jungle surroundings in a basement. or removed the sim card and faked the calls. Or changed the time and date settings, then called in a place without reception, and staged the entire phone log string after April 1st...
DeleteIndeed, after April 5th it seems odd that the iPhone was no longer activated with the proper pin codes. Was someone else trying to get access to the content of the phone, without knowing the codes? Or was it Lisanne, desperately trying to get access of her friends phone? We just don't know :(
I don't believe that Kris and Lisanne were free and out there and taking those night photos themselves either. They make no sense at all from their perspective. Deliberately vague, deliberately taken before sunset it seems, deliberately showing the same unidentifiable treeline at the skin again and again and again. The only idea one gets from them is that someone is, indeed, lost in the jungle. So it could be a set up, for sure. Indeed, they used things the girls had brought on their hike, including a map of Boquete, which they were already pictured with while having lunch in town before they went missing.
I do not know all the details about the camera and memory card. Other than that there are question marks right now about the missing photo 509. Which would have been retrievable in part at least if it truly had been deleted manually. Seems not the case though. Apparently no photos taken before April 1st were deleted by Kris and Lisanne. Although it may still be possible that they did right after taking a photo and that the next one overtook the file number and so we will never know about those deleted photos. Thanks, yes I agree with you. To me it also seems a crime and committed by people who are not professionals at it...
Hi,
ReplyDeleteIn the picture of the back of Kris' head, i see a gold earring on the right and I see her eye on the left side. I am surprised no one mentioned the eye. Or do you see that as aomething else?
Lissane's left leg has been found but until vital bones are found, I will feel it is possible she is atill alive. It creeps me out that her bones were not water logged. And, that her rolled up flesh was found (torture?).
I wish their parents would release all original pictures.
Thank you for your work on this!
"I wish their parents would release all original pictures"
DeleteGood day I have just come across this website and read the some of the main points.
I agree with you on the expressing hope regarding the release of all the original pictures.
Unfortunately there seems to be a significant level of victim-blaming especially due to Kris & Lisanne's gender. This can be mentally stressful to the parents and they may not want to reveal too many details.
The Caldera swimming photo was perhaps one good example (although the photo did not come from the Kris-Lisanne camera). If the genders were reversed, it could have been much easier for the parents.
If Kris & Lisanne allegedly went to the extent of taking off their bras and swam topless because presumably they did not want their sleeveless vests and bras to be wet, this might ( I repeat "might") have also meant they did not want their shorts to be wet.
It might have also explained meant why there were no available photos taken by the camera (alleged tampering of the photos was a separate issue).
The way they posed in the swimming photo with only their shoulders above the waterline more or less proved the ladies would probably not have taken photos of themselves in their existing state.
The absence of other clothing in the backpack suggested the ladies did manage to put their clothes back on after the swim but probably did not put on their bras back because they felt more comfortable that way.
Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. Yeh it looks like people like Matt from ImperfectPlan have been able to get access to all the photos through the official police files. I think that a lot of people who have been reading about this case have questions regarding those photos. Simple things like: was Blue the dog visible in any of them, or not? (No). What sort of normal photo taking habit did these girls have before the sudden stop after 14:00 April 1st? Are there any clues as to what could have happened hidden in the photos which the public has not yet seen?
DeleteWith regards to victim shaming, I do understand that bit, but don't think that pc censorship of sorts is going to help with anything, in the end. Unfortunately this is a world 9and always has been a world) where many of us women run certain risks. Walking home alone at night, getting very drunk on a night out, simple things can already turn into disaster for those of us who are unlucky enough to run into a disturbed individual. But ignoring these factual and actual risks because doing so could be victim shaming, is like wanting to believe in a fairytale. You would probably have to search long and hard to find someone in this day and age who believes that wearing shorts means a woman is asking for trouble. Skinny dipping or swimming topless... I don't know, I guess many of us have done so in our teens on a first holiday abroad, I have been not much better in that respect. It isn't asking for trouble, but realistically speaking it is increasing the risks of harm befalling you, unfair and unjust as this is in itself. Of course, we do not know if that swimming photo is real and if so, if Kris and Lisanne were just crouching under water for no specific reasons or if they swam topless. Just like I think it was a bad idea for me to do so on a holiday with a friend alone in Italy at around that age, I would say that doing this in Panama alone would probably have been a bad idea. But there is a good chance that none of that actually happened here.
I agree, it could explain though why the bra's were in the backpack and why the jeans shorts were found (and not worn in the end). If photo 509, perhaps, showed them swimming or at the Caldera, it also makes sense why a 3rd part or even the authorities did not want this photo to survive. It would place these girls firmly away from the Pianista trail in their last taken photo and would have turned the notion that they were lost behind the mountain on its head. I fear and suspect this is what happened though.
I do see the eye too, I'm surprised too that there is no speculation with that.
DeleteOr is My brain seriously playing tricks, i see the eye very clear. And The gaze doesn't seem lively..
I found this case intresting because I had similar case. When I was in army I actually got lost in forest. We had different squads that were sleeping in their own tents in forest middle of night. Then I had to wake up and change shift with another person to guard tent of commanders. (he came to woke me up). Problem is that this tent wasnt near and I lost path how to get there.
ReplyDelete..Now suddenly I didnt see any tents. So long story short it took me 5 hours to walk around forest all by myself until I finally got out of forest and found road out of just pure luck. I noticed there was some other army guys other there who lead me to right path early in morning. I think I was 6 miles away from my location. I am from Finland, land of forests.
I think my situation was harder because I couldnt recognize path. It was dark night (winter) and dense forest disadvantage and my flashlight was crappy.
But I believe because they walked such long distance they could got easily lost. Photo #505 and #508 they got into dense area of forest. We have short time memory and cant always memorize or trust patterns especially if they look same, in this case forest.
If I understand this correctly #508 was last picture of this day and they called 911: at times 16:39 and 16:51. So it seems like they went from this water fountain to somewhere and got lost. I do not believe there was anykind third party involvement based on phone call activity.
First day proves to me that they are lost and they both could freely use their phones to call 911. Then this same pattern of calling 911 is repeated next days 2nd, 3rd.
They got lost by pure accident. Like for me I had objective to find tent and I knew where it was. And I still managed to get lost from path. Then I tryed to retrace my way to get to this original path and I still couldnt find it and I was probably walking in circles. So my next step was to walk out of forest to find road. I did scream too btw, no luck.
I do believe they got lost based on 911 calls. If both are harmed, kidnapped or murdered it is very unlikely that they can freely call 911 from 20 min of each other. Also just from my experience it is very easy to get lost in forest.
But what happened after day 8 I cant say anything. What bothers me is that human can survive long time without food and they had plenty of water source there. Did sleep deprivation or somekind accident happened or did they meet someone who lives there and caused them harm. And why wouldnt person want to take away their phones away if that did happen.
My guess is that they didnt had any energy left to walk further especially being young girls and everything. They hiked probably long time and in circles. And if you sit long time from exhaustion or from sleep depravation in one place then maybe you dont have energy to resupply water then your body will just stop working.
Anyway just my few thoughts
Good point about getting lost in the forest. Guides and hikers have said it is very hard to be lost at Pianista Trail. While they concede this applies mainly for the main trekking trail, they still feel the other side of the summit is not that difficult.
DeleteProblem is that the 2 girls are inexperienced and not well prepared. From the known footage and pictures, the grassland after photo 508 does not seem to have a very clear trail.
One wrong move and suddenly the surroundings look different with no clear direction. If there is foul play, it is likely they have met with some hostile party which as caused them to run.
After they recover, it becomes very hard to get back on track. I agree that much energy will have been wasted walking round in circles. eventually, down trekking along Rio Changuinola seems the only option but the terrain is much more dangerous.
For the moment, I tend to believe the reason for their light attire for the Pianista trek on 1 Apr is due to them having swam at a much human-friendlier Rio Chiriqui Nuevo 2 days earlier.
As some commenters have wrote, the light attire seems more suitable for the beach.
Thanks for sharing your experience with getting lost. Interesting also that it happened when you were in the army. Are droppings normal within the armed forces? I have seen programs about the special forces and over here they are often dropped in disorientating terrain such as uniform forests, with minimal maps and then tested on their ability to make it to a point X within a certain timeframe. I do hope that your mates would have found and saved you, had you not found the way yourself ;)
DeleteI think overall, the discussion within this case should not be about whether or not one cán get lost (everyone can), but if they díd get lost. Unfortunately we don't know for sure. But Sinaproc said it on camera at the time; they combed through the entire region, including the area where the remains were found much later, and Kris and Lisanne were not there... They also simply could not have been anywhere near those main rivers; those areas were searched and nothing was found of them, not even candy wrappers or anything they could have left behind along the trail. No dogs found their scent either. Those rivers are frequently visited and passed by people. I think the problem here is that we have no signs of them having gotten lost. Here we all know the hansel and Gretel fairytale and on the night of the 8th (so a week in) Kris and Lisanne apparently used a bunch of paper and plastic wraps to mark things on a rock. But that should raise the question why none of this was done along the way? If you get lost, panic does grip you early on. It makes little sense to me that no trail was created by these intelligent, planning-prone young women. It could even have been done with branches, rocks, anything really. Strips of their clothing. Why leave an entire jeans shorts on a rock (supposedly..)
when it could have been cut and torn and used to mark the trail they walked? It would have been firm evidence that they did get lost and a handy aide for search troops ánd themselves if they wanted to backtrack. But like I said, there is zero indication that they got lost. Neither that they were behind the Pianista area after April 1st.
People who believe they got lost almost always point to the night photos as lost evidence. But I do lean towards those night photos having been staged by a 3rd party. Exactly because they show nothing. Not the girls themselves (aside from the back of a head), not their clear location, not their backpack, they are as vague as one could possible achieve, if given that brief on the outset. The only thing they achieve is to give off the impression that these young women were 'lost' in the 'wild'. The entire accident theory was built on these photos and the minimal and odd phone log info.
First of all, sorry for my bad english, not my best.
ReplyDeleteAs a dutchman i heard of this case and in thoughts it never let me go...watched all the video's, blogs, everything what i could find on internet.
What i found strange and i don't know or can't remember it's mentioned before, but in the story are rumours about a red pickup truck. In one of the photo's where Kris an Lisanne are brunching on a balcony just arrived in Boquete, where Lisanne is holding a map or overview of activity's, you can see on the right, a red truck, im sure that is a pickup truck. You can see a man sitting inside. They parked the truck in a strange way and exactly that way to have an overview on the balcony and can see what K & L are doing. Payed my attention and very vreepy....they were followed from the first day in Boquete.
Yes, this is true. You can see the red truck here: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0LfaKoWC4GU/Xe419FA2HyI/AAAAAAAAAuw/_Ks35L9Z3F8voKfjWUP3wiwhWvtR0SGCACEwYBhgL/s1600/IMG_0459.JPG
DeleteIt looks very much like the red pickup truck which belongs to guide P.:
Photo 1: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9Y4n04r2ICU/X8-eXYtcEuI/AAAAAAAAE0k/anMlNW9IkJE1MC_q8nj4-_zdIUOs4eKiQCLcBGAsYHQ/w541-h406/rio%2Bchiriqui10.jpg
Photo 2: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n8o8n38HFys/X44W-XKi3TI/AAAAAAAADl4/FI2rgnNNxSQbPoPoG0X5W_IMWoygZl0vgCLcBGAsYHQ/s960/Plinio%2Bfb%2Bupload%2B27%2Bnovember%2B2015.jpg
I don't think it's the same truck.
Delete1. In the first truck - you can see it has a distinctive black grille guard. This grille is not in the other pictures of guide P's truck. Are those pictures from similar timeframes?
2. In the pictures of guide P's truck, you can see black side mirrors. However, in the first picture, the left side mirror (the other mirror is out of frame) looks to be hidden or washed out due to brightness - but AFAIK something black should be *more* visible than the red paint of the car its next to.
Good day, regarding the brunching, a reader has provided what appears to be a copy of the map that has been read by Lisanne.
ReplyDeletehttps://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOLKqkzYEQKbJINSLxknKuMHncDWGcc2HwrTdUF7dYSyqU_785dIZAcSn1_GiMioQ/photo/AF1QipOQIwN1IAfXD_Nk7tie80eDlLN6s_LXif_K6v1E?key=cll6Q0VUZl9ubWt3d3RpTzgyWTlvQmZ1UUdVS0hR
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOaDcK-zyudR_UXP4xNvvSpKhbEUNHFkl1cvaGaZrvkiKqkgSL0BK5mjUL2SGcDjw/photo/AF1QipMNjOzZJLVouigYtvGVM_oLbr5qB1GTQAHlhikV?key=UjkzUHpsRmtLNUc2RlphdjVTWHRZSVEySjNYS0NR
Map does not show Caldera Hot Springs.
On that day, did they interacted with someone who told them about it?
Hi, it looks like a similar map yes, although Lisanne to me seems to read a slightly different map, here is a close up: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3hgQsd_pr40/YJuvmsaN0zI/AAAAAAAAG2c/sbmyz1MMbX8pCfN3t87N5Q2yFh60mxpTQCLcBGAsYHQ/s567/Bags%2Band%2Bstick_zpsmnzo1okn%2Bcopy.jpg
DeleteBut these are the touristic maps that can be found everywhere there and they are all more or less the same, or similar, with only small differentiations in the details. Notice for instance how the map which Lisanne holds in her hands in the Boquete Bistro photo has a thin light green line around it, while the map you linked to has a slightly different looking 'framework'. But those are tiny details.
Yes that is very well possible. Guide P. used to hang around this particular Bistro a lot and is of course very knowledgeable about the area. These girls were also seen with local guys by several witnesses, one claiming they were overheard making an appointment with them 'to go see the waterfalls'. But because no witnesses were properly vetted or even identified and most witness statements were cast aside by police and investigators as 'unreliable', we simply don't know...
You can see in Jean-Claude Latombe's photos from his trek up to the Mirador and down into the Serpent trail that he walks the exact same path as the Dutch Girls up to their last photo, He even has a photo posted of the same place where Kris has her hands behind her back and of the Monkey bridge from the daily beast pics, it is the same monkey bridge.
ReplyDeleteJean-Claude Latombe states they hiked for almost 9 hours yet they crossed 3 rope bridges, This means if they started at 5am they stopped to rest and or eat for 45 mins to 1 hour at some point and made to pin 14 by 3pm, Sunset is around 6:30 so still over 2 hours of daylight.
The first rope bridge pictured is the same bridge from the Lost in The Wild episode, yet Kinga and J.J claim the girls could not have possibly made it to the first bridge.
There is almost 100% no doubt they made it the 2nd bridge, possibly the 3rd and if anyone ever bothers to go there they will find the area of the night photos 100%....it only takes 9 hours to hike there.
Hi thanks. kris and Lisanne started at 11:00 am and were at the summit around 13:00. They could have been at the meadow (paddock) around 15:30, but there is zero evidence for this as the last photo 508 shows them only 45 minutes from the Mirador. If it took Jean-Claude 9 hours then we have to add another 5 hours to the time of Kris and Lisanne, meaning it would have been at the least 20:30 in the evening for them to be able to reach a monkey bridge. This seems unlikely to most people. These girls were not professional hikers, they did not have the same condition as JC. They were not prepared for such a hike and by all accounts had no intentions either to go that far. It got dark'ish around 18:00 already there. We need to take into account also that it was very warm that 1st of April and that these girls had already walked for a good few hours by the time they went off the radar, so to speak. I think there is as much chance that they turned around back to the start of the trail, as there is for them to simply keep walking deeper into that jungle. I completely disagree with you about there almost being 100% certainty that they made it to the 2nd cable bridge. The only 'evidence' for this is a jeans shorts from Kris and some bone remains found much further up north. I think that proves nothing, as these items were planted there months later imo. There is no hard evidence, in any case, no matter wheteher you believe this or that happened. Hard evidence would have looked like photos taken by these girls of the river and them identifiable in the photo themselves.
DeleteI live 35-40 mins from the Mexican border and haven't been in Mexico for over 25 years. Paying me money wouldn't get me to go to South America. It's too dangerous. Esp. for young white women. I believe European travel agencies need to triple warn these very innocent, naive young women not to travel to dangerous places by themselves. It is suicide. I have many Mexican and south American friends who would give me strict instructions where to go, what to do & what not to do & even where to drive and not drive. What was safe to eat and what to avoid when visiting south. This was when we used to go quite often to Estero Beach in Ensenada. My gut feeling is these young ladies were abducted. Either on the mountain or shortly after arriving back down. They were taken to a place where they could not escape and were terrified to use their phones in case they were heard talking. One of them died long before the other. When the heat was on the local authorities to find these girls, the abductors put together what was left of them & dumped it where it could be easily found. Maybe at one point one or both of them escaped which might explain the night images which only occurred on one occasion. Whomever was after them found them & dragged them back. Please, please, please get the word out that young women should not be traveling alone in a foreign country. North & South America are both dangerous. Not Canada. It is not safe like it is in Europe. People look at you very differently. A young tourist thinks "oh isn't this exciting, a new completely different place to visit" while the ones watching you might be stalking their prey. I was in Mexico once when a local man called me a rich white Gringo bitch. At the time I was a student and my husband & I were broke but that's not how they saw me. Most Mexicans are lovely, kind, hard working honest people like my friends. But they also know there is a line even they can't cross. A couple of years ago a caravan of white American men, women & children in several different vehicles were ambushed on a road in Mexico. Even the children were executed. Very suspicious because gangs don't usually attack children. It was a message.
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for sharing this here, anonymous. I noticed over time that certain people will try to stop others from stating the obvious statistics and risks of certain trips. Because it would come down to 'victim shaming'. Which is silly. I think it is good to bring awareness of risks (not self invented ones, but risks based on the actual numbers and case examples). Because we live in a world now with flashy glossy social media accounts and 'influencers' only showing the paradise side of world locations. Indeed, people need to look past the sales brochures of travel agencies (who would even sell a trip to Islamic State in Syria if they could make money with it without insurance risks). Travel agencies have no monetary interest in warning their clients about going to this or that place. The good ones will advice against certain places, but I doubt anyone here will utter warnings about Panama. It may come down to individuals to do some online searching (but where to start?). Yes Mexico has many horrible cases of tourists being killed, same for women in general and tourists and men too actually. It is an allround violent country with out of control cartel wars. Good that you have friends who can advice you on where to go and where not to go, when going south. It is all about risk management in the end; as some will say: you can also walk under a bus in Amsterdam. Sure, but there is statistically less chance of being burned in your camper van on the side of a highway in the Netherlands by patrolling cartels. (Adam Coleman and Dean Lucas case). Yes I read about that absolutely gruesome execution of those American religious families in northern Mexico.
DeleteI agree with you on the kidnapping/crime factor. Yes I agree, it is worth it to bring awareness to tourists of the importance of adjusting to local culture and being aware of local politics/crime and such when traveling the world. It is incredibly sad that people have to learn based on utter tragedies, such as the death of Kris and Lisanne, and more recently the absolutely gruesome murder of two Scandinavian women in Morocco. By all means, travel, but limit your risks by being aware of potential dangers and especially when you travel alone as a woman/women, anticipate on potentially dangerous situations. Out alone in a foreign jungle for instance, in a 'macho' culture.
Is it possible the dark pictures were taken through that mirror that’s laying there? So, not droplets in the air but specks of dust or defects on the mirror? Someone said the shadow from the flash of the camera was on the wrong side for that model. It could explain that, too.
ReplyDeleteI'm new to this sad story and tried to go through your excellent research. Concerning the night photos, I know there is a technique often used in astrophotography which is called stacking. It combines the digital information of several photos to enhance very subtle details in what seems to be otherwise areas with no information. I myself cannot do this as it requires quite some experience but this might be interesting to try...
ReplyDeleteHI Scarlet & all
ReplyDeleteCongrats all for the detailed analysis.
One item on the photo Doesn’t seem to be taken into account is the items they carry outside of the bag. First given the fact they were wearing mini short they do no have their smartphone with them and both are in the bag. This imply in case of emergency they would likely be calling the 112 at the same time unless they disagree on the importance of the emergency but that would be unlikely. This also imply that in case of foul play the girl not carrying the bag would not be able to run away and call the police.
Another point that surprisingly nobody pointed out is that Kris on photo 491 seem to hold the small bottle of water in her hand and on photo 505 and 508 she has the bottle in the pocket of her short. Having climbed during two hours under the sun with only a half a liter bottle of water for two the girls must have been very thirsty. Before seeing this I was really curious why they have been continuing their track after the summit. One of the reasons may simply have been they were super thirsty and knew there was some drinkable water not so far. Kris would had been going to the river not for the sightseeing but simply to fill the bottle with water. Then the question would be: did they knew there was some drinkable water before doing the hike or did a third party made them aware of it when they were on the summit.
On the other side we could question the fact that the walk to the river was one hour from the top a similar distance than the one they crossed on their way to the top. But maybe one was drinkable and not the other one. In any case given the discomfort of keeping a bottle of water in the pocket of your short this IMO an important point and it is worth to mention that between photo 491 and 505 the bottle was not with Kris.
Kind regards,
The Szekely investigation group.
Here is my theory they got hurt and someone one found the camera and bag on April 8; that someone is seeing if it works after it got wet. You can see there finger with hair on it. They snap all night photos with it. The real question is who took the photo at the swimming place. They had to be on the other side of the bank or floating in water. The girls jaw lines suggests smiling. The fact that their bras were found off of them suggests death took place after this photo. Did they put back on bra and finish hike? The last picture she has bra on? All of the alive photos likely happened with the last one having the girl
ReplyDeleteIn it. Night photos were after both girls were dead in my opinion. Maybe the night photos of kris is her dead body that random guy stumbled apon
And was like”dead girl” “ free camera I wonder if it’s ruined?”
Of course. Instead of telling the police about the bodies and asking for the reward of 30,000, he preferred to take the backpack and then throw it somewhere.
DeleteЯ убежден, что девочек похитили, правительство знает что то, скрывает и подделывает факты. Это не просто будет найти виновных, они наткнулись на какой то объект, секретный, в результате чего пострадали, вполне возможно, что их использовали для продажи органов тела. Это стоит больших денег, до 500 тысяч долларов и больше, за 2 девушки, причем молодые, кровь, органы, части тела, все это стоит денег. Местная власть явно зарабатывает на этом, по их лицам видно, что их эмоции наиграны.
ReplyDeleteThis is really some amazing work
ReplyDeleteThis is Amelia. I'm a psychologist and I've been following the case for some time casually, but found this website today and read everything from the top to the bottom. I'd like to add a few thoughts:
ReplyDeleteQuote: "My own theory has since been that Kris and Lisanne were not alone at the Pianista Trail. That there were people with them, and that the witnesses who said they saw Kris and Lisanne at the trail head again around 15:30 PM that day may have been right; that the girls took a taxi (the one of the later murdered Leonardo) and went swimming afterwards."
My answer: That doesn't add up really well. If the girls had a company during the trip, they would get photos shot together by these companions. But none of the photos present two girls at the same time made by third person (there are only selfies), which suggests they were indeed alone and made photos to one another. Of course, we can argue that there were other people with them, but they refused to take or be part of the photos, but that would contradict with the (presumably) final photo with everyone in the pond from the mobile camera.
Quite: "And the reports are pretty useless then, in my opinion. It's just, whose side are you on... the report, with the times and phone usage, manipulated by the perpetrator.. Or the boyfriend of Kris, who recites a very fresh memory, and who probably checked it thirteen times and showed it to the parents etc.."
My answer: In my opinion, the boyfriend staying in their home country wouldn't recalculate the time to 14.00 Panama, but instead recalled what he saw on his watch/phone, so that would be 14.00 Dutch time and 08.00 Panama. Which makes sense both with the the offical timeline, and girls' phone network coverage report. So the contact was made before the trip took place. This also means Roelie wrongly corrected Hans during the interview. After all, it wasn't them who made the contact, but the boyfriend, so they might be wrong. It would also be an odd detail to remember if you weren't the actual person making the contact.
Hi Amelia. Thanks for your message. Are you deducing that because there is no known (!) photo of anyone else on that trail that could have been with Kris and Lisanne, there therefore must never have been anyone else? I don't believe that is a solid argument. I am out and about with a lot of people, but never like to be photographed, for instance. That does not mean that I wasn't out there. And why would mere strangers automatically get into selfie photos? Besides, there was a photo or video number 509 that was removed; we do not know if there were other people pictured on it.
DeleteAdd to this that we now know that Pitti and her team not only looked at the photos on the memory card, but also altered them on June 17th of 2014. Rotated, brightened, then saved the new versions. We knew that already as the exif data of the photos proved this, but we know it for certain now as Pitti admitted to it. This could theoretically be a shaky alibi for her and it certainly was an opportunity to meddle much more with these photos, unbeknown to the NFI or the rest of us, the audience. Ergo: we are not 100% sure that the photos that were leaked are all the photos that were taken by Kris and Lisanne.
As for the time of the phone contact of Kris' boyfriend with her; watch the video for yourself on my youtube channel. It was the very first TV interview and the parents were prepared to appear on national television. By then the girls had been missing for some days. I don't personally believe that Roelie would correct Hans on camera unless she was certain about the time being local Panamanian time. That surely is one of the first things you verify and want to be certain of, when you find out your daughter is missing: when was the last time anyone had contact with them? But that sort of thing should have been verified by the investigators and confirmed, one way or another. Alas.. nothing ever heard about it again
Look I get that you claim to be a psychologist, but you should know then that the passive aggressive manner in which you try to bring your point across in your subsequent comment is far from effective. If you can't discuss things in a normal way and tone, you can do it elsewhere on the internet. Sorry but there is no need for that sort of stuff.
DeleteHi! Photo 541 shows the chin line and the left cheek and this is 100%, otherwise the neck would have been in the photo
ReplyDeleteAnd here's what I noticed
https://www.dropbox.com/s/49jchulc9w6zazp/2222.psd?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lxjnym1x6umib0u/3333.psd?dl=0
It does look like a chin line and cheek. the frayed hair at the top of the photo looks light in color. It would make sense if they huddle together on that ledge it would be Kris' chin and cheek since we get a picture of the back of Kris' head at 580.
DeleteSomeone on websleuths came up with what is probably the correct explanation for the nighttime photos.
ReplyDeleteWe've been misunderstanding the purpose of the nighttime photos from the beginning. They're not photos at all, but rather, at attempt to keep the camera's LCD screen lit up so that the person holding the camera can see.
From what I understand, this is the kind of camera in question: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FRJLW2O?pf_rd_r=88HZRNYYXB79KKPX66ZA&pf_rd_p=8fe9b1d0-f378-4356-8bb8-cada7525eadd&pd_rd_r=daea67fc-3ccd-4638-bcc6-d09420e4451f&pd_rd_w=y8zgI&pd_rd_wg=2mLJI&ref_=pd_gw_unk
Apparently, in order to keep the LCD screen lit up, the camera must be used every so often, or else the screen will go dark. So whichever girl was still alive on this night and was taking these photos probably wasn't using the camera for the sake of taking photos, or using the flash to scare off predators or alert potential rescuers. Most likely she was using it in order to keep the LCD screen lit so that she could see. Probably one of the girls died that night and the other one was trying to keep examining her and had no other source of light with which to do so (and the phone battery was far too precious to be used for this).
Looking at it from that point of view, the significance of the photos is... nothing. The girl using the camera wasn't doing it for the sake of taking pictures. She would have been holding the camera up in the air around her as she was looking down, taking pictures in the exact opposite direction from which she was focusing her own attention. So we shouldn't expect to find any meaning in the actual photographs. Whatever the item of interest that night was, the camera wasn't pointed at it.
For any camera, when interacting with the camera buttons, the screen turns on. Even if the screen was used for illumination, it was possible to take a photo or record a farewell video.
DeleteI thought about the photo for a long time. I am absolutely sure that night photos were taken from bottom to top - FROM DEEPENING (pit? Crevice? Ravine?) And stone "walls" - VERTICAL.
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that the person taking the night time flash photos could have been injured and layed down on the ground in a prone position because they were unable to walk or even stand upright.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of those flash images appear to be looking up at the trees.
Wow, this is a huge research collection and very interesting.
ReplyDeleteWhat really makes me sad is in fact the victim blaming done by some comments. They have been young adults with 21, 22 years of age. So how should parents keep them away from travelling? And who would listen to them, honestly? At least everything was planned very detailed and could have been the best trip of their life. A travel agency will never ever explain you the real danger, to avoid you from cancelling your booking. They tell you to keep an eye of your luggage and avoid huge crowds lol. The society creates the rules: Nobody wants negativity or uncomfortable facts and mentioning human trafficking is very uncomfortable. Greed for money is a global problem and the bill is always paid by the vulnerables. More awareness is necessary, maybe already starting with a better education in school already. In that area baby sloths are taken from their (killed) mother and sold to tourists. If the animal dies after a cute insta-pic, sad, but there is other entertainment waiting around the corner.
This is the so-called "modern" society.
About the case... in my opinion the girls have been lured in and got lost after their hike. A ride with new "friends" to the caldera for swimming may have been a chance to abduct them, rape them and sell them to the cartel. Keeping them alive until they are "needed" for organ harvesting. The local youth gang messed up and to protect the criminal structures, witnesses have to disappear. Even the 30000USD reward does not work, if you or your family are put in severe danger. Knowing my parents and boyfriend are worried about the whole trip and expect to receive at least a message in the evening, would drive me insane. Even if theres no network coverage, I would message them and my host to inform them we are lost, but ok. Messages may get out, they need less signal and it would be pending to be send. Apart from this, I can call 911 or 112. When the parents showed up and officially declared they are not gonna leave, remains had to be set up. Police has its hands tied up too, as they and their families wont mess with the big money. Fernando behaves suspicious, but his son was one of the youngsters and had access to his car. If this was messed up by his son, knowing who pulls the strings in the back, he may have tried to lesser the damage for himself and his family. People there have not even a chance to move somewhere else for protection. In this surroundings I would keep my mouth shut.
I feel deeply sorry for everybody involved , Sabine
I think that to put on a swimsuit in the morning, leaving the house, wants only a girl who KNOWS IN ADVANCE WHAT WILL BE SWIMMING. In addition, she knows it will not be possible to put on a swimsuit near a pond (for example, due to the presence of guys). I suppose the girls went swimming after returning from the route. And it was there that they were attacked ...
ReplyDeleteI dont know why, but the last pics when theyre in the deep jungle they dont look happy, posing, like all the other fb pics, the one where she's holding the water bottle and people thought the dog may have been resting behind her, and when shes having a pic taken from behind her as she descends the rocks and looks back, she just seems somber, not comfortable to make a bit of a dork of herself as sometimes girls might think they look when taking funny pics, but just when in eachothers company these two girls always smiling and thumbs up, but all of a sudden these shy girls, who obv arnt shy with eachother, seem shy in the last pics, just gives me the feeling someome else may have been with them at that time, mayne not a complete threat, but enough to make them go back in their shy shells again which is what their personalities seemed to be when in unknown company, have a look again, this is the first time reading this case, incred inventigation btw, i dunno, have a look at the last few pics of her she doesnt seem as happy, and if it was just her friend there why take a pic of her if shes so tired and pissed off she cant even be bothered to smile, a girl would kbow better and leave her to have the hump for a while, it was as though someone else was saying take a pic, and they reluctently obliged, just my thoughts seeing the case and reading all this for the first time, and i did for hours great job, just stood out to me even when they were chilling at the bar the pics in the jungle were posed for but not happy poses, im not sure there were any other selfies or posed pics where either seemed unhappy, even the natural bar pics, just my view, maybe look back see what you think, anyway great work!
ReplyDeleteThat in the photo 541 is pretty much middle segment of a middle finger curled downwards visible along with finger hair extending from the proximal segment, the hair curl shape is also very similar to that of the finger hair. This is pretty much how it would look like when a right hand is holding the camera but the middle finger is not bent inward enough and is clicked in the way of the lens by accident. From the day time photos neither of the girls have any hair on their fingers or at least they have it completely removed which cannot grow back to such length that quickly. This is very likely a third party who has a fair amount of finger hair, probably a male who does not remove them.
ReplyDeleteHi Scarlet,
ReplyDeleteI have found a better version of #508 (cropped) on reddit, which shows Kris's facial expression. I will add the links below.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/comments/sldzij/kriss_facial_expression_in_the_photo_508/
https://jurgensnoeren.com/blog/
Best regards.
In photo 580 it looks like you can see a face where the back of the neck should be
ReplyDeletehttps://imgur.com/AGM8muT
https://imgur.com/hiab7Dn
Hi everyone, I was noticing, the rock on the right of #599 photo might be what you see, extremely illuminated, in photo # 541? The light only breaks on that rock and everything else gets darkened, couldn't it be? In case it would be no human profile. Especially since the light of many photos seems to have been modified to highlight the details. I hope I have explained, English is not my first language. Tnanks for your job.
ReplyDeleteAnother thing, sorry, but I only discovered this story now and slowly I'm trying to read all the articles about it. And just reading the first part on this blog, a doubt arose: what if * all * the calls to 112/911 had been the application of the method explained in the video you posted "Iphone 4 passcode / password bypass"? Practically instead of using the correct pin they accessed like this, and had to dial the emergency number. "They" means any unknown people who attacked the girls right away, on the afternoon of April 1st, and took all their belongings. Is it possible and has this possibility been evaluated? Thanks.
ReplyDeleteHi, I have noticed that in the photo of Kris' hair in front of the camera, Lisanne's face is visible beneath her hair if you look closely. Her nostrils, upper lip and left ear are most observable. Her ear is distinguishable by her specific earrings which she is seen wearing in other images. Her darker, brown hair is also visible. It is for this reason that I believe the girls may have been using the camera's flash to try and signal for help, and Kris may have been deceased at this time and Lisanne incapacitated. I believe Lisanne was the last alive. If foul play was involved (which I do believe) then shortly after this photo was taken the girls were found by whoever attacked them and it's likely that Lisanne was taken as a captive again and abused further. If Kris really was dead by this time, then her body would have been dissolved at that point. I think Lisanne was likely kept alive for some time as she was quite an attractive young woman and would have been valuable to those arseholes. Maybe they realised their efforts at dissolving Kris' body were not very effective (hence the bone remains) and resorted to simply burying the girls at different locations. The photo that was deleted was likely of their attackers the first time they encountered them and before the girls got away the first time. They must have gone through absolute hell. I am surprised so few people have noticed Lisanne's face in that photo of Kris' hair, but it is impossible not to see it once you notice it.
ReplyDeleteAgreed, i can see a eye too.
DeletePretty sure the guide or the son of the guide is implied
ReplyDeleteOr they setted an anbush and forced the girl yo go somewhere else
Or they get lost and leet indigenousbtribe or cartel member or religious sect